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Adding missing KDF Canon Vessels
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Just to Consider What about old vessels we haven't seen in here which ones do the Rest of Klingon Community want to see? I mean maybe its nostalgia, but some of the old vessels are cool. And would work well when Foundry is released for parts of missions. Imagine Facing a rogue house of Klingon Pirates still flying D-5s or some other older ship.
Unknamed Klingon Vessel from ST: Enterprize Episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence"
D-5 from ST: Enterprize Episodes "Judgment" and "The Augments
D-5 Tanker from ST: Enterprize Episode "Judgment"
"Warbird" from Star Trek (2009)
and we must never forget,
K'Vort class Bird of Prey
Unknamed Klingon Vessel from ST: Enterprize Episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence"
D-5 from ST: Enterprize Episodes "Judgment" and "The Augments
D-5 Tanker from ST: Enterprize Episode "Judgment"
"Warbird" from Star Trek (2009)
and we must never forget,
K'Vort class Bird of Prey
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Enterprise fan? :rolleyes:
to be honest, I wouldnt like to see Enterprise ships in here, they just wouldnt go, and besides, Pirates would have more up to date ships than Enterprise ones
That being said, I guess the tanker could work, though not as a player ship. I'd like to see more NPC vessel variety, in general. But for players, I'd rather have some more ships for our Nausicaan, Gorn and Orion allies. From a Klingon point of view, it just doesn't make that much sense to see them flying our ships. Gorn maybe (if conscripted into the KDF), but not the others.
Also, K'vort = B'rel with another name. Why would you want two of the same ships?
In any military fleet, one will have a mulitude of vessel types and role specific vessels, Its time the KDF got to show what they haven't let be publicly known about thier great war machine.
>As for the "Warbird" from the new movie it looks similar but with decided differences to the K't'inga. Enough so if you look at the model that i could see it making a good Varient, or Even refit for the K't'inga. The ships from Enterprise are close enough to standard timeline in my personal opinion that we shouldn't rule them out. On top of that references are made to Enterprise in some Fed Game play, such as the bonding of Surak and Captain Archer.
Now I really am not looking for major shifts in the game, just getting a feel for what people could use (or would like to see so that they can use) in the Foundry when they release it. User created missions and content, the more options we have to work with, the more diversity the players can have in what they create. The more Diversity in what we can create, the better the user created content experience we can achieve.
Um No, The K'vort Class Bird of Prey is MUCH bigger, 2500 crew compared to 12. please check canon before spouting nonsense like this.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/kvort-class-bird-of-prey
Yes, but it's visually identical aside from size. I think that's the point. I really like the Klingon Bird of Prey design. In fact it's probably my favourite Trek ship, period. But even I gotta admit that the K'vort simply being a giant scaled up B'rel is...uh, kinda silly.
Granted, since Klingons have so few ship types, it's certainly something to add. A lot of folks seem to think it should be a cruiser...and I agree, since it's so big.
As for the D-5: yes, it'd be really old by the STO era, but bear in mind we already have the Raptor in-game, which is also an Enterprise series design. Now, the STO Raptor is not supposed to be the same as the ancient Raptor, but rather a modern redesign that just uses the same hull shape. The same could be said for an STO interpretation of the D-5.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/bop-size.htm
It's a common myth amongst the fans (no doubt started by one of the many soft-canon books), but one I keep argueing against.
I actually liked how it was done in SFC, with the K'vort being just slightly larger (~120%) than the small B'rel. But I've seen some charts where the K'vort was scaled up five times, and it just looks awful and makes no sense, given that each and every detail is enlarged equally. As if the K'vort would fire torpedoes that are 8 meters high. Makes you wonder if it'd also have a rear ramp that is 50 meters wide.
This was also the explanation for the Somraw-Raptor. Still, I'm somewhat sceptical when it comes to importing designs from long-past eras into the year of 2409. The development of new ships should rather go forward like the K'tinga -> Vor'cha, not backwards. And I personally do think that the Hegh'ta BoP looks awesome. More of that, please.
As for the size of the torpedo launcher: yeah it's massive in theory but the Photon Torpedoes fired by the K't'inga are also 3-4 decks high so they much be of a different calliber compared to the Fed models anyway.
At least it would abbear that the Klingons have two different sizes of torps: the big ones on their cruisers and the smaller ones on the BoPs that seem to be neraly identical to the Starfleet models.
Otherwise the Enterprise crew might have found out that the damage to Gorkon's ship in Star Trek 6 was not caused by Starfleet weaponry.
The torpedoes fird by the simulated battlecruisers in Star Trek 2 also appeared to have a lot more bang than the ones fired by Chang's ship in ST6, so there is another clue there are different types of torps.
The torpedo fired by the large BoP in "Redemption" also appeared to have a smaller diameter than the diameter of the launcher itself so it would seem the caliber did not grow proportionally with the ship but stayed similar to the K't'inga's torpedo caliber.
There is also the possibility that inside the large BoP's tube, clustered around the torpdo launcher itself there is a deflector array that would still require the "hole" in the forward section to remain as large as it is.
That the small and large BoPs were identical in screen cannot be denied but when subtled differences were added to the STO incarnation, it would go along way towards making the ship more credible.
The D-5 has almost the same problem as the NX:
at an age of 250 years it get strange that such a ship would remain in service.
Almost because the NX fought the D-5 in several occasions and was unable to damage it on each occasion with conventional weaponry.
Only trickery allowed them to get away each time.
So there would be a lot more fight left in the old D-5 than in the NX.
However sveral counter indications:
TOS-Remastered only included the D-7, even incases like the fleet over Organia where is would have been possible so show one.
They canged details like adding a Romulan BoP to the squad that intercepted the Enterprise in "The Enterprise Incident", why not D-5 in "Errand of Mercy" when it is very likely the Klingons would mobilize everything they had in a total war.
And there was alos no opposition in space expected by the Klingons so why send only the most advanced ships to pacifiy such a system?
Most likely the D-5 would only be in a rear service position by that time.
The shape of a ship inproves or counters the effects of a warp-field so without massive changes to the hull it becomes counterproductive to adding new engines because the ship would still be limited in its maximum speed due do its shape.
So the D-5 would be something between a large cutter and amonitor in the early 25th century.
Also something people forget when they talk about the word "refit" like it were the holy grail of ship construction:
At some point refitting a ship with new components means taking it apart into so many small pieces that it can in fact become more expensive to do so than to simply build a new one.
Of course this is STO, which means such cinsiderations as real-world facts don't come into play that much but just my 2 cents on the subject for now.
Maybe more next time.
/end wall of text:p
Also, Birds of Prey should simply never be as large as cruisers. After all, what's the difference, then?
I'd rather see that the upcoming "B'rel Refit" would be called "K'vort", with the same hull and size but a stronger hull and weapon configuration. Just my two darseks, of course.
For the most part it's a matter of personal preference.
However in addition we've seen occasions in TOS_R where they've fixed inaccuracies in models that were present in the old incarnation of the special effects, like the metallic dorsal section of the Romulan BoP in "Balance of Terror" or, for better or worse, the addition of impulse engines to the D7 in "Elaan of Troyus".
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081205235339/memoryalpha/en/images/6/67/Romulan_bird-of-prey%2C_CG_TOS-aft-dorsal.jpg
I have to admit the next part is personal opnion:
According to Star Trek 6 the Klingon military budget had to be reduced after the Praxis Incident to allow the Klingon people to survive, which was only possible because of the peace with the Federation.
I always saw the large BoPs as a consequence of that: a stop-gap measure for a credible counter against bigger and bigger ships the Fed were throwing out, like the Excelsior (I still find it dubious that the K't'inga can take in an Excelsior 1:1), the Ambassador or the Romulan Warbirds, who turned out to be a dangerous enemy in the early 24th century...never appear weak or you invite an invasion.
During WW2, several nations required vehicles that were armed with heavy weaponry that allowed them to defeat other vehicles that were actually above their weight had they been built in a conventional way.
As a result tankhunters had a gun that in many cases exceeded the caliber possible to be mounted into the frame had a turret been included.
The Jagdpanther carried an 88mm gun compared to the 75 of the normal Panther.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanther
The Jagdtiger had a 128mm gun (I'm still not sure what they were supposed to be used against subs? destroyers? light cruisers?) compared to the 88mm of the normal Tiger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdtiger
I see the large BoP as something similar, armed with a pair of disruptor cannons larger than a 400 meter cruiser would usually carry, but given there is little to no secondary armament to power, enough juice would be available to arm them.
While the ship itself would still be somewhat light in tonnage given its BoP-style shape so it could get them to bear on the enemy whose similarly large ships would lack in agility.
The wings would also allow a comparatively large field of fire.
So I see the large BoP as a dedicated cruiserkiller, probably several decades older and also cheaper than the Vor'cha and designed to take out ships its own size and, being cheaper, in pairs of groups ships of larger size, like the Ent-D in "Yesterday's Enterprise" or the Warbirds in "The Defector".
This would also explain the lack of their use in the Dominion War at least for the most part.
If we believe "Penumbra they still took part in it even if they were unseen like the Ambassador class, that also only appeared on deployment and casualty lists.
They'd be swarmed by the smaller Jem'hadar fighters and probably helpless since I figure they'd have allround disruptors, but only a few compared to the Vor'cha.
However they'd probably still be useful against the J'H Battleships that they could outmaneuver.
So this is my personal idea what a large BoP is and what purpose it would serve:
It was cheaper to build this one instead of a larger more modern K't'inga, like the Vor'cha is today and it still worked as a tankhunter in space...probably also spectacular in orbital bombardments if you ask me.:D
I mean, to continue the WW2 comparison, it'd be like building an 8 meter motorcycle only to slap a tank cannon on it.
But yeah, I know that the whole K'vort-size-issue is hugely impacted by personal opinion. I've changed mine on this subject a couple times, too.
Well, even though it is not the exact same thing considering the scales involved but take a look at those two pictures and maybe you'll see a certain similarity in these two verhicles:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/PzIV.Saumur.000a5s6s.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-299-1805-16%2C_Nordfrankreich%2C_Panzer_VI_%28Tiger_I%29_cropped_.jpg
The first one weights 25 tons, the second 57.
The Panzer VI Tiger was exactly what you said: it was a scaled up version of the Panzer IV so they could put in a bigger gun and more armor.
Time would have been saved in case of a bigger BoP since it had already been established that the shape performed well at Warp (see my rant in the D5 about that) so with probably some minor changes like thicker wings (I'd love a properly rendered model to have slightly thicker ones) to compensate for the scaling issue (the mass increases by the 3rd power, the supporting strengh of the material only by the 2nd) and it would quite possibly work.
As for the wings: I don't see the large BoP as a ship that would perform in the atmosphere even remotely like the small model and I'd omit the machinery that moves the wings and the landing gear therefore saving even more space but the wings themselves have a lot of surface that would allow them to radiate the excess heat caused by operating the large guns and the probably equally massive power grid.
But in the end it ultimately comes down to the question whether someone wants this thing in or not and whether it will be a slightly larger version like the Pagh in TNG (around 250m) or even larger like in "Yesterday's Enterprise", "The Defector", "Reunion", "Redemption" etc. (around 350-40m) or the version established in the DS9 TM which would be bigger than the Galaxy. But then several ships are given at the wrong size in that book, I find the K't'inga at 349 meters quite impressive too.
So I hope the ship comes one day, but I won't be hurt if it does not.:)
I can understand slight differences in size, which is why I went with the SFC idea of the K'vort being 120% the size of a B'rel for a long time. That was okay to stomach, as changes to the hull did not seem necessary at this point. But if you scale it up to Galaxy-size I just don't buy the similar appearance.
Also, if they just needed a weapons platform, they could've well mounted the big guns on a K'tinga cruiser. They were still using those in DS9, after all. Makes a lot more sense than refitting the shipyards to churn out an oversized version of the B'rel, since such a reconfiguration takes its toll in resources, too.
If you want to save resources, you continue to use and improve the same hulls with different interiors.
That being said, I wonder how big the Refit-B'rel will end up, considering all the ships seem to grow based on their tier. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I fear it'll look at least as ridiculous as seeing a small Galaxy next to a large one. >_>
I want the K't'inga too, as was indicated in the State of the Game August edition.
However if you want a big ship with a load of torps, I recomment you take the K'vort or Vor'cha over the K't'inga since the K't'inga is only 228 meters long and has a smaller internal volume than the Miranda.:D
And it's great fun when you have the right people to discuss with.:)
Dude, size won't need to matter in space...The ship will be able to do whatever it needs but putting more guns and other things on the hull on it will only feed others' envy of Klinks or feds or whatever. Nice arguement, but i dunno. On a side note...nice pic of the Panzerkampfwagen Ausf J...or I think I remember it as such...I would have hated putting in the zimmerit (think i misspelled it here...early in the AM here) coating on it myself though...lol.
Amen for that...why don't you pop into the STO discussion and give them a piece of your mind eh?...lol
Canonically speaking the B'rel is a large BoP (TNG:"Rascals"), none of the small ones was ever called that way except in the Encyclopedia, which was appearently used as a basis.
My personal guess, ignoring the Encyclopedia this time, is that the B'rel we saw in "Rascals" is a precursor class to the K'vort.
Based on the dialogue in that episode the Ferengy practically got their hands on these ships from a junkyard.
So the K'vort would be newer incarnation, similar to the D7/K't'inga.
Of course there is no visual difference between the two ships (it was actually reused footage from previous episodes) due to our old friend the budget.
At Tier 5 I'd love the K't'inga to be something different than a typical cruiser.
It should actually be a hybrid between the cruisers we have now and a Raptor instead.
Decent maneuverability decent hitpoints, but in neither category a typical Battlecruiser or a Raptor.
I guess we'll never get such a ship but that's the way I think a T5 K't'inga would work.
Size would still be an issue, even though you wouldn't have issues like recoil that require the vehicle to have a certain size to be a stable firing platform etc.
However if you try to fire a large energy weapon you need the energy to do it: a reactor big enough.
Then you need to get the energy to the gun which means a large enough energy grid with large enough condiuts that don't burn out.
Those would need to be insulated and cooled.
Then you need to build the ship around the reactor, that grid and the insulation, give the whole thing protection proportional to the tactical importance and economic toll of the weaponry, which will require an even bigger reactor if you want to employ a decent shield grid to protect the whole thing.
Then you need to get it moving which means large enough impulse and warp engines and voil
Actually ... seeing a "Bird of Prey" being 1 1/2 times the size of a Battlecruiser only makes me feel even stronger against the idea of acknowledging such a mutation. :P
Damn. The navigation light alone must be 10 meters high.
However the K'vort was called a cruiser so that's someting that was not twisted into this, that's the canon part.
Oh and the funny thing is that the torpedo launcher on a large BoP would be about as large as the K't'inga's since the torpedo launcher on a K't'inga was always a bit large compared to the Federation mdels' or the BoP's.
Oh and that's not a navigation light that that's a disruptor turret
Truth is I simply took the two images from Ex-Astris and scaled the K't'inga but I did not change the BoP, which means the image shows the wings-down version which is not correct for a large BoP and makes the ship look "higher" and therfore even more massive than it should.
It was actually meant to show why I wouldn't put that gun under a K't'inga but would build a ship around the gun.
Even in space they must be in certain proportions to each other or it won't work.
And as I said, I believe if they built a large BoP it would not be a 1:1 replication of the small ship simply scaled up, there would be differences, both on the outside and the inside.
Otherwise it would truely make no sense.
Oh and the scale comparison between the large BoP and the Galaxy would not be that different from the large BoP vs K't'inga comparison just that the BoP would be small compared to the Galaxy.
So the BoP wouldn't shhot Galaxy-nacelle-torpedoes even though I'd like to see the Damage Per Volley on those for sure.
*EDIT*
As for mutants:
take a look at THAT rabbit, now that's a supersize-mutant!
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/giant-rabbit.shtml
Then again, we don't actually see the launcher itself - only a weapon module that might include the launcher. Keep in mind that the K'tingas in DS9 did not only fire torpedoes out of this hole, but also beam weapons. Maybe this hole simply holds a "weapon pod" that consists of at least one launcher as well as potentially several cannons and/or beam emitters.
I see where you're coming from, but I still don't like it - it's just that I have grown used to the idea of the Bird of Prey being a ship category of its own ("KDF frigate"?), and that's what STO does, too. A ship cannot be a BoP and a cruiser at the same time.
Plus, I really think the idea of having several ships with the same shape but massively different sized is just bad. We all know that the BoP's in TNG were scaled up just to look more threatening to the 1701-D.
But yeah ... matter of taste. :P