Organized PvP is in awful shape right now. The community has been leaking members since before 2.0, and the two weeks of broken queues (half a subscription period) blew open the valve and spilled out nearly all of what was left. The team has put a nice new replacement valve in place - don't get me wrong, I think the new interface is great - but the water has already escaped and soaked into the soil.
This is particularly bad for PvP. A competitive PvP population behaves quite differently than single-player or even casual PvE/PvP groups. It has a very strong critical mass effect behind it - if there are not enough people to play against, then the experience not only degrades, it ceases to exist.
I believe that even the most conservative credible estimates of the organized PvP community will now show that we have passed this point. Two player-organized tournaments in the last month have been aborted due to lack of interest. Even attempts to orchestrate a casual biweekly meetup have fallen apart. Interested, challenge-seeking players have continued to lower their expectations, but the bar's sitting on the ground now, and it's still not enough. STO's non-pickup PvP scene is comatose.
I'm well aware, as I'm sure you are, that customer recovery is more difficult and resource-consuming than either retention or recruitment. I therefore see this as presenting a sharp dichotomy for the direction of STO's ongoing design. The historical resource allocation toward supporting competitive PvP (mechanics, balance, environments, incentives) is below the threshold for effectiveness. Consequently, it's almost as bad as having nothing at all. You would have to dramatically increase design (combat systems), technical (code, QA) and community (forums, marketing) resource allocations to regain critical mass and bring the community back to life.
The question is, will you do this?
Going by existing information, the outlook is not good. According to the most recent Engineering Report, there is nothing on the horizon for organized PvPers. In fact, there is nothing at all for PvP other than bug fixes to existing maps that very few people play.
On top of that, the ill-defined "Open PvP" notion that many players have been hoping for as the ultimate solution to STO's PvP woes is barely a blip on long-range scanners - 2011 at the earliest.
All indications are that the STO team's priorities are on two things right now: fixing bugs and creating weekly PvE content. That's all well and good, and the quality levels in those aspects of the game have clearly increased as a result - as I said, the team put a darn nice replacement valve on that leaky pipe. However, the value proposition to organized PvP players, who log on every day to find that there is nobody around to invite into those challenge queues, remains poor to nonexistent.
My hope is that the information I have cited is simply dated, and that Cryptic has already committed the resources necessary to scan, hypo, transfuse, or otherwise shock the PvP community back to life. Failing that, however, I hope that you will at least put this matter to rest in the straightforward professional manner that we have come to expect from you.
Please let us know what your plans are for organized, competitive PvP. Cortical stimulator, cryostasis, or a holodeck burial?
I've had a Klingon main since open beta, and really, such comments are neither constructive nor relevant to the discussion at hand. This thread is about the state and future of the entire competitive PVP community within STO, regardless of faction.
I love how anytime anyone like the OP bring up a very valid point to bring to the table on the topic of PvP the random people who probably used to get owned in other more pvp oriented games start ****ing their pants.
All of the sudden they're all "Well PvE is more important and blah blah blah we dont want it because we are scared this is the beginning"
Even though it would not effect them at all if they did not want to participate.
Don't worry kids, cryptic wont let people like you go without your solo missions and what can only be described in most situations as a single player game that shouldnt require an internet connection.
God, pre-trammel ultima online was such a good game compared to this....
All of the doom and gloom threads about PvP make me a sad panda.
I'm one of the players that plays MMOs specifically for the PvP. I keeping sticking around in STO in hope that Cryptic will eventually start adding more and more to the PvP content side of things. There are so many things they need to do.
THIS ISNT ABOUT YOUR RANDOM PUGS OR RANDOM CRACKED PLANET/CAPTURE AND HOLD GAMES, its about PPL WHO PLAY PVP TO WIN not to earn medals or someother useless ingame materials.
8. things that make pvp-premade level better in the long run.
1). Put a "setting" on challenge system that allow ramming speed at all hull levels.
2). Make a cryptic run tournament on a weeked with some specific rewards, maybe even something for attending.
3). Put a 5v5 arena "random" (where you can only que up yourself) into the game. This would actually be something that benefited alot of ppl not just premades/organized ppl because then you would play more spend more time ingame and maybe you would "learn" new names and organizedpvp might become more active with ppl who wanna fight other "better ppl from the random games".
4). Make it so you need to win to earn credit, forcing ppl who play pvp to improve and not just sit idle at random location, this would inspire more ppl to try to team up with their fleet and try to get better I think.
5). OPEN PVP is all premade pvpers dream because if you could get outnumbered alot you have more fun like 5-8.
6). More Arena maps, we been playing cracked planet, briar patch and solar wind for 6 months. Alltho this isn't really something that would change this by much.
7). Personaly I hate this idea but general pvp ppl want their stats kept record of like kills deaths ktd ratio and all that stuff personally I dont care one bit for this.
8). Faster Balance changes or just tweeks that would update the current game, more offen would be really great.
THis is a good list, even though I don't agree with all points. It is something to work with and give good ideas.
My list as person that is more interested in PuGging but likes a strong Premade/PvP Fleet community for their input alone:
1) A Ranking/Ladder System. Sometimes to track how good people are. This can be used for bragging rights, as a motivation, or just as an information "hey, this guy is really good, maybe I should listen to him/run away now."
2) A system to track tournaments and to also reward participation. For example:
- Register for one Tournament per Month. Set your preferred weekend and timezone(s).
- If enough players or teams registered, the tournament starts at the "optimal" date. (Provide multiple modes of tournaments to cover different player numbers.)
- For every match you participate in, you get an Emblem. Teams can get knocked out, so the winner automatically gets more. First, Second and Third each get Purple, Blue or Green Even Mark Items.
3) UGC options specifically designed to great PvP scenarios with a unique challenge.
4) Additional perks for "winning". I think "I am just here for the Emblems" can be acceptable, but not rewarding participation limits the number of players. Remember, sometimes it is: "You come for the emblems, but you stayed for the people/challenge". But extra incentives would be nice.
- Accolade track your "winning" with a neat title or other rewards (nobody likes my idea of a lot of winnings granting the option to create higher level KDF characters to increase KDF population, but...)
- Winning team gets an extra reward (Item, Emblem)
5) Open PvP with Territory Control. This isn't actually for everyone Organized PvP. A lot seem to enjoy Arenas where the only focus is killing. Cap & Hold or Borg Hunt are not typically used for any form of competition. But it opens up something for a lot of people and invite them to organize themselves for better territory control. It can attract more people.
4). Make it so you need to win to earn credit, forcing ppl who play pvp to improve and not just sit idle at random location, this would inspire more ppl to try to team up with their fleet and try to get better I think.
I appreciate what you're saying about idlers, but I can't get behind a winner-take-all approach. People who want to PvP but are new, or who have a bad string of luck, or whatever - this would probably just make 'em not want to even try.
I'd rather see people get rewarded for their activity level in the match, whether it's damage output, meaningful use of BO skills, etc. That way, new-ish players with low skills, or people trying out new configurations or new ships, still get something for honest effort.
Could such a system still be exploited? Sure - but at least you'd get some activity from would-be idlers, and you wouldn't turn away the new people that PvP desperately needs.
the quick fix add open pvp warzone and let us have the dam war already this would be easy and add a TRIBBLE load of content I would just play those all day long even if i got nothing for them.
AT least do this and you can work on the rest as slow as you work on everything else.
To:Edgecase
From: xxxxxx
Subject: Bye guys
Just wanted to say that it was a pleasure to play along with all you guys. My sub is up on the 11th but this will be the last time I'm going to be online. With the state of Premade PVP right now I just can't take it. Just not any enjoyment in the game for me. So just saying my goodbye now. Have fun all.
I'm sure we've all gotten a few of these in the past few months. It's always sad to see a friend leave, but particularly frustrating because so many people have tried so hard to hold out for an improvement or even a response. Nevertheless, people, even very patient and understanding ones, hit their limits and go.
This slow bleed has culminated in the situation we face today. Understanding that we're taking a particularly hard hit this week because this is when all the 3-month and 6-month subscriptions run out, it still leaves the cold fact that the community is getting worse with time, and not better.
I very much hope that Cryptic has some plan to reverse this trend. I tried earlier this week to get even a small organized match going - 3v3, not even a full 5v5 game - and couldn't scrape together THREE players out of the entire Organized PvP channel (I even spammed TTS out of desperation) to play against. My fleetmates tried again several hours later at prime Pacific hours, and got nothing either. It's not that the remaining players aren't trying... it's that it's not working.
What's the difference? No one playing = No one playing the way I see it.
Oh and ...
This:
2). Make a cryptic run tournament on a weeked with some specific rewards, maybe even something for attending.
Doesn't jibe with this:
its about PPL WHO PLAY PVP TO WIN not to earn medals or someother useless ingame materials.
If the powerful draw is as you say (people who play to win and not earn stuff) then your point 2 does not need to exist based on "specific rewards" especially "maybe even something for attending."
That just furthers the issue you have right now of people showing up not caring about winning.
If the powerful draw is as you say (people who play to win and not earn stuff) then your point 2 does not need to exist based on "specific rewards" especially "maybe even something for attending."
I think both of those viewpoints are a bit extreme.
In the professional world, you don't expect someone to show up at work and put in 8-12 hours a day without getting paid, no matter how much they like what they're doing. Generally, a person is best encouraged to continue at a job because of an effective combination of incentives - extrinsic reward (money) and intrinsic motivation (likes the work).
Don't take the analogy too far - my point is simply that concrete rewards and the innate desire to play the game are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, under the best circumstances work together to produce a positive experience.
A solution that retains the number of players the community needs is preferable to one that doesn't, even if it does mean introducing a few conflicting elements into the population. At least there would be a population to speak of. The severity of the situation would seem to call for an inclusive approach when possible.
I think my post came off more argumentative than it was intended. I apologize for that. You are making a lot of good points I agree with Edgecase. Some valuable feedback. As did Zorena. I'm sorry I got nit picky. I don't want to detract from the overall topic of the thread and the valuable feedback being offered.
Sometimes I zero in and get lockjaw on things that really are less important details of the main discussion. And sometimes I get tunnel vision and forget I do that.
I don't want to detract from the overall topic of the thread and the valuable feedback being offered.
That said, I do think the issue of HOW resources could even be spent to remedy the situation is a tough one. I don't think I've heard anybody dispute that there's a problem, but finding solutions is tough even before you start considering the economics of the situation.
So far, people have suggested additional character advancement incentives, recognition above and beyond existing levels, and additional opportunities to PvP (open PvP, territory control, new maps). Faster balance iteration might help keep people interested. In another post, I mentioned the idea that we could counteract the smaller population pool by shrinking the size of competitive matches to 3v3, which requires far fewer people and reduces organizational overhead.
Anybody else have any good ideas on what could revitalize the ailing competitive PvP scene and keep it healthy? Even before considering the resource requirements?
I love how anytime anyone like the OP bring up a very valid point to bring to the table on the topic of PvP the random people who probably used to get owned in other more pvp oriented games start ****ing their pants.
All of the sudden they're all "Well PvE is more important and blah blah blah we dont want it because we are scared this is the beginning"
Even though it would not effect them at all if they did not want to participate.
Don't worry kids, cryptic wont let people like you go without your solo missions and what can only be described in most situations as a single player game that shouldnt require an internet connection.
God, pre-trammel ultima online was such a good game compared to this....
I'll second this! wtf is the point of an mmo if your resources go towards computer play?
I'll second this! wtf is the point of an mmo if your resources go towards computer play?
There is a difference between competitive game play and cooperative game play. While I can see the need for pvp in the game, the truth is pvp does exist at present. While it may not be the best of what people desire and I am willing to concede that having a territory game such as a couple of sectors in the neutral zone for open pvp would be a good thing, I don't think that opening up the whole game to flagged pvp is a good idea.
I'm all for objective based PvP... however, I am against competitive PvP. There's plenty of MMOs and other genres that cater to the type of people who feel the need to make, "Rate the best PvPer" threads. Competitive PvP, in my opinion, simply does not draw people to a game. It usually end up destroying games. How? It leads to make people who care about this sort of thing to stack uber premades against PuGs so they can pad their stats. In every MMO I've played that has a kill tracking system, this leads to people bailing out of minis the instant they think their team might lose. It fosters a plethora of bad things, that quite frankly, I am glad that STO is not.
Objective based PvP is where its at. I'd say the vast majority of players could care less who the best escort pilot is or who dies the most. Objective based PvP puts meaning into the conflict. Competitive PvP doesn't do anything to change or advance the game. It only provides fuel for hate-laden PvP related posts about, "so and so's a baddy!"
Mot PvPers don't stay with any title no matter how good the content is. It's silly to even consider them as a viable group to base a game's needs upon. There's a big difference between normal people who like to pvp and the PvP do0dZ players that I am talking specifically about. I don't think they should be catered to. At all. It is economically good policy and for the sake of the community at large, it's nice to not have an MMO's main page filled up with 20+ posts of how bad player X "WTFBBQROFLCOPTERPWN'd" player y.
That said, I do think the issue of HOW resources could even be spent to remedy the situation is a tough one. I don't think I've heard anybody dispute that there's a problem, but finding solutions is tough even before you start considering the economics of the situation.
So far, people have suggested additional character advancement incentives, recognition above and beyond existing levels, and additional opportunities to PvP (open PvP, territory control, new maps). Faster balance iteration might help keep people interested. In another post, I mentioned the idea that we could counteract the smaller population pool by shrinking the size of competitive matches to 3v3, which requires far fewer people and reduces organizational overhead.
Anybody else have any good ideas on what could revitalize the ailing competitive PvP scene and keep it healthy? Even before considering the resource requirements?
A tiny, non-resource intensive thing could be additional rewards for continual PvP participation and success. It can't be everything, I figure there is more people require.
This is a tiny pathetic tiny thing perhaps, but - Exploration Missions have this half-hour or so mission where they can get an Emblem all day. Why isn't there such a thing for PvP, too?
I don't know how much this helps organized PvPers, but considering that they are basically not rewarded for continual PvPing can't help their motivation, either. And it doesn't help anyone else, either. (And a PvP mission on 30 minute or 1h timer is also all the motivation for people in PvP to take their time and actually fight in PvP matches - because otherwise you're just sitting around without any change to gain Emblems)
The hot topic of rewarding success - ultimately I am for it, but to be careful with it. Giving the side that wins a PvP match an extra emblem (or maybe even one of the "old" Mark of Honors) would be fair, IMO. Alternatively, item rewards like in Ker'Rat. (But please, not based on damage or healing. Base it on the final score ratios perhaps.
Losers Points to Winners Point - Reward
75-100%: Emblem for Winner, Rare Item and 1 Mark of Honor for Both
50-74 %: Emblem and Very Rare Item for Winner, Uncommon Item for Loser, and 1 Mark of Honor for Both
00-49 %: Emblem for Winner, Rare Item for Winner, 2 Mark of Honor for Both
I don't want the option to easily "game this system". I mean, you can intentionally try to target for one specific result, but it's hard to say which one is actually better.
Maybe an Accolade that tracks your PvP "progress" would be nice, too. Something tracking PvP matches, wins and failures.
This is only the "reward track". I think it can keep people PvPing, but not necessarily the type of people particularly interested in Organized PvP. I think some kind of ranking and ways to halt tournaments will be a necessity.
Competitive PvP doesn't do anything to change or advance the game. It only provides fuel for hate-laden PvP related posts about, "so and so's a baddy!"
This represents a very narrow and stereotyped view of what it means to have competitive PvP. There are a great many players who would like to play a game against other players with similar skill levels and interests. The idea that high-level competition is inherently juvenile and undesirable is just as naive as the idea that all PvE-oriented players are one-button wonders who couldn't adapt their way out of a paper bag. Both are absurd, and more than a little closed-minded.
So what DOES competitive PvP actually represent? It's a stable retention environment at the top of the PvP advancement curve. As people play, they get better. As they get better, they need more advanced opponents to provide a challenge. Players who find them continue to play, and bubble up toward high-end PvP. Players who don't, lose interest. They may return to other parts of the game, or they may simply get frustrated and leave. NOT maintaining a stable high-end PvP endgame environment virtually guarantees that it will be one of the latter two possibilities. Think about that. Players who play the game and get good will always be disappointed, because there will be nothing for them at the end of that road. Getting good becomes a formula for getting upset with the game. Playing and improving puts players on a course to leave the game.
As for the idea that high-level competitive PvP only benefits a tiny, self-serving minority... if you think of it only in terms of direct participants, then yes, the best of the best are by definition only a tiny percentage of the population by definition. But, by that measure, professional sports are also utterly tiny and insular. After all, there maybe a couple hundred or so pro-level basketball or football players in the world, right? Why channel hundreds of millions of dollars into that elitist snob-fest?
Highly visible, highly interesting play is an attention magnet for players in the other 99.9% of the population curve. Competition is a draw even for people who aren't super-competitive themselves, because it gives them something interesting to watch, and in some cases, mimic in their own way. Golfers buy the clubs that their favorite pros use. Baseball players change their throwing styles or batting stances. Pro clubs inspire youth leagues and major league franchises sponsor minor league farms. All of these raise involvement and participation in the game.
In gaming circles, a high-end community gives back as well. Competitive Starcraft II players have contributed guides and annotated tutorial videos on a huge array of topics and techniques that excite other, more mainstream players, and encourage them to keep trying - in economic terms, to keep playing, and keep paying. This is highly relevant for obvious reasons to a subscription-based service. WoW raiding wouldn't be nearly as popular and sustainable as it is now, if not for the quantity of player-created support that community provides within itself.
Community. Self-supporting. Retention. Sustainable enterprise. These things go together.
They also don't come for free.
TL;DR: A stable, self-sustaining competitive PvP community represents a way to both retain and attract players and is healthy for a subscription-based game.
Reality is in this type of game a resource driven pvp territory system is so obviously the answer. We know it, they know it, and eventually I believe it will come, however the UCG and smooth deployment of weeklies. Need to come first, because they will impact the most players.
Once these systems are in place and stable, I expect the sector map and exploration has to be next. Realistically the real meat and potato pvp revamp is going to end up as part of a first expansion.
Personally I'm fine with that, the game has come miles since launch, hopefully the crew is reading these, and can give us something substantial to chew on in the meantime.
I think my biggest hangup on rewarding victory in STO PVP is that the game's technology is skewed. Capture and Hold ... the Capture nodes don't work the same way for either side. So it's naturally out of balance and I'm not sure I think it's fair enough to properly reward victory.
The playing field doesn't seem level to me. And this has nothing to do with one faction or the other. Or skill of the participants. It has to do with the actual mechanics of the playing field itself.
i only see the queue's in the game, i guess that is pickup PvP?
also there is some pvp window where i can invite people from my (empty) friends-list... never gonna see that in action and i don't have time for a fleet, nor do i have any intrest in TeamSpeak spam from strangers while i'm playing.
Organized can mean simple things like having a PvP fleet and regularly playing together, devising or improving team builds, having a vent server or similar voice over IP solution, over to specifically challenging other fleets or teams, and finally to actively organizing a tournament between all players. All this did happen in the past, as far as I know. (I am not really an "organized PvP" by any of these standards. I don't even have a PvP oriented fleet. But I read the forums and be blown up by premades...)
I guess the borders are pretty fluent, but I think the moment you stop just queing for games and actively look for people to repeatedly play with or against, you enter "organized PvP" territory. I guess coordinating a PvP fleet matches or even organizing a PvP event like a tournament is pretty much the "highest form"...
Competitive PvP is a bit broader than Organized PvP, IMO, because it refers simply to the population of players who enjoy improving while competing against each other. It may sound like a given that people get better with practice, but it's not - casual PvP tends to be a "come as you are" sort of experience, with the flavor of a"test your skill" carnival game rather than "practice makes perfect". Competitive PvPers, on the other hand (who DO tend to get organized about this sort of thing, the same way amateur leagues form in sports), play both for enjoyment and to actively get better at the game.
The State of the Game address is due on the 15th, and is supposed to focus on KDF issues. Since the KDF was originally marketed as a "PvP faction", I hope that many of the issues and ideas raised in this thread will be addressed there.
I don't have any trouble getting into matches on a regular basis and for the most part they are enjoyable. The two weeks when the que's were down kinda sucked but since they fixed it everything is working fine for me.
I do wish the xp was a little higher per match and the points could be spent on things that are worth having.
The current system works at least. I would prefer open pvp zones and territory control, even a ranking system and from what I have read those things may be in the works so, I'm going with patience for the moment.
Cryptic has been busy devposting on KDF-related issues, which do appear to include PvP. Got a State of the Game on the KDF due today, so here's hoping.
Also hoping that the Dev Post brings enough attention to the latest attempt to organize PvP that people will actually join up and follow through, unlike the last few.
Cryptic has been busy devposting on KDF-related issues, which do appear to include PvP. Got a State of the Game on the KDF due today, so here's hoping.
Also hoping that the Dev Post brings enough attention to the latest attempt to organize PvP that people will actually join up and follow through, unlike the last few.
Engineering Report is up. Vague references to "space combat balance changes" are the only PvP item of note, unless the ground targeting changes make a big impact in that area. Other than that, just a couple of fixes upcoming to the PvP challenge queues, and right-click to send a PvP challenge. New items might help the rewards system, or might not.
Notably missing: Official PvP tournaments, new BOFF abilities, new PvP gametype that mitigates cloak griefing, adjustments to existing PvP map mechanics (cap and hold = zerg and ditch), ground combat balance adjustments. All great ideas, but all seemingly fallen off the radar. The Engineering Notes do specifically say to take them with a grain of salt because they're neither promises nor all-inclusive, so go ahead and salt to taste.
On the ground note, Ground Combat Changes are mentioned as a Season 3 feature due to its major impact on the code, so ground PvP players are either the least or most fortunate - not much hope until S3, but it's a major revamp feature for that target.
State of the Game: KDF Edition is reportedly submitted to the web team, but won't be posted until tomorrow. We'll see if there's any hope on the horizon, or if the new direction is going to be KDF PvE.
Edit:
"Team Matching for PVP queues" is in the Engineering Notes. I have no idea what this means, but if it means "Teams of 5 will have to wait for another team of 5 to join before being matched against each other" then that's a good idea with absolutely horrible timing.
If there were lots of groups in the queues, then it would be great. With an already-thin population, though, it just means that people who queue as groups will never get games (or will have to spend longer in queue waiting for the queue system to give up and match them against 5 PUGs). Logically, they'd then stop queueing as groups to avoid the wait, further discouraging them from playing as an organized fleet or team.
The game is, of course, a very large and complex entity. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect terribly much space to be dedicated to the game's PvP issues, but KDF was the hot topic, and everyone knows that Klingons and PvP have shared a long and painful history in STO.
Solid PvP experience - We want all factions to have awesome PvP maps with sought-after rewards. We want the queues to work and the gameplay modes to be fun.
Solid PvP experience sounds good, but the devil is in the details. And the details are:
"awesome PvP maps"
"sought-after rewards"
"queues [that] work"
"gameplay modes [that are] fun"
If Cryptic could somehow nail all of these, then they might have something. New maps and gameplay modes would solve issues that have been driving players away since launch. We're all familiar with the queue debacle. And if rewards include both gear and some sort of visible recognition (I don't know, let uber PvPers paint their ships black or something), then that could help to increase participation.
In the end, of course, it IS all about participation. The competitive PvP community in general needs a shot in the arm, and if Cryptic can deliver everything that it's promising here - subject to some interpretation, of course - then maybe there's hope.
There's hope.
But then, there's reality. And the reality is, that of those four items, only the queue is actually in the Engineering Report. Awesome PvP maps, fun gameplay modes, and sought-after rewards are whispers on the wind - promises without even a hint of form or timeframe. Call me a cynic, but gameplay delayed is gameplay denied.
On top of that, there's no hint or indication that a "solid PvP experience" actually includes competitive PvP at all. Everything that was just described could easily be limited to "thank you come again" PUG matches, without meeting the needs of organized PvP, much less shocking the community back to life.
Miracles can happen, but absent that, I think the writing is on the wall for competitive PvP in Star Trek Online. At least until the expansion.
Comments
rather that then how it is now.
welcome to knowing what its like to play klingon
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I've had a Klingon main since open beta, and really, such comments are neither constructive nor relevant to the discussion at hand. This thread is about the state and future of the entire competitive PVP community within STO, regardless of faction.
All of the sudden they're all "Well PvE is more important and blah blah blah we dont want it because we are scared this is the beginning"
Even though it would not effect them at all if they did not want to participate.
Don't worry kids, cryptic wont let people like you go without your solo missions and what can only be described in most situations as a single player game that shouldnt require an internet connection.
God, pre-trammel ultima online was such a good game compared to this....
I'm one of the players that plays MMOs specifically for the PvP. I keeping sticking around in STO in hope that Cryptic will eventually start adding more and more to the PvP content side of things. There are so many things they need to do.
My list as person that is more interested in PuGging but likes a strong Premade/PvP Fleet community for their input alone:
1) A Ranking/Ladder System. Sometimes to track how good people are. This can be used for bragging rights, as a motivation, or just as an information "hey, this guy is really good, maybe I should listen to him/run away now."
2) A system to track tournaments and to also reward participation. For example:
- Register for one Tournament per Month. Set your preferred weekend and timezone(s).
- If enough players or teams registered, the tournament starts at the "optimal" date. (Provide multiple modes of tournaments to cover different player numbers.)
- For every match you participate in, you get an Emblem. Teams can get knocked out, so the winner automatically gets more. First, Second and Third each get Purple, Blue or Green Even Mark Items.
3) UGC options specifically designed to great PvP scenarios with a unique challenge.
4) Additional perks for "winning". I think "I am just here for the Emblems" can be acceptable, but not rewarding participation limits the number of players. Remember, sometimes it is: "You come for the emblems, but you stayed for the people/challenge". But extra incentives would be nice.
- Accolade track your "winning" with a neat title or other rewards (nobody likes my idea of a lot of winnings granting the option to create higher level KDF characters to increase KDF population, but...)
- Winning team gets an extra reward (Item, Emblem)
5) Open PvP with Territory Control. This isn't actually for everyone Organized PvP. A lot seem to enjoy Arenas where the only focus is killing. Cap & Hold or Borg Hunt are not typically used for any form of competition. But it opens up something for a lot of people and invite them to organize themselves for better territory control. It can attract more people.
I'd rather see people get rewarded for their activity level in the match, whether it's damage output, meaningful use of BO skills, etc. That way, new-ish players with low skills, or people trying out new configurations or new ships, still get something for honest effort.
Could such a system still be exploited? Sure - but at least you'd get some activity from would-be idlers, and you wouldn't turn away the new people that PvP desperately needs.
AT least do this and you can work on the rest as slow as you work on everything else.
I'm sure we've all gotten a few of these in the past few months. It's always sad to see a friend leave, but particularly frustrating because so many people have tried so hard to hold out for an improvement or even a response. Nevertheless, people, even very patient and understanding ones, hit their limits and go.
This slow bleed has culminated in the situation we face today. Understanding that we're taking a particularly hard hit this week because this is when all the 3-month and 6-month subscriptions run out, it still leaves the cold fact that the community is getting worse with time, and not better.
I very much hope that Cryptic has some plan to reverse this trend. I tried earlier this week to get even a small organized match going - 3v3, not even a full 5v5 game - and couldn't scrape together THREE players out of the entire Organized PvP channel (I even spammed TTS out of desperation) to play against. My fleetmates tried again several hours later at prime Pacific hours, and got nothing either. It's not that the remaining players aren't trying... it's that it's not working.
What's the difference? No one playing = No one playing the way I see it.
Oh and ...
This:
Doesn't jibe with this:
If the powerful draw is as you say (people who play to win and not earn stuff) then your point 2 does not need to exist based on "specific rewards" especially "maybe even something for attending."
That just furthers the issue you have right now of people showing up not caring about winning.
I think both of those viewpoints are a bit extreme.
In the professional world, you don't expect someone to show up at work and put in 8-12 hours a day without getting paid, no matter how much they like what they're doing. Generally, a person is best encouraged to continue at a job because of an effective combination of incentives - extrinsic reward (money) and intrinsic motivation (likes the work).
Don't take the analogy too far - my point is simply that concrete rewards and the innate desire to play the game are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, under the best circumstances work together to produce a positive experience.
A solution that retains the number of players the community needs is preferable to one that doesn't, even if it does mean introducing a few conflicting elements into the population. At least there would be a population to speak of. The severity of the situation would seem to call for an inclusive approach when possible.
Sometimes I zero in and get lockjaw on things that really are less important details of the main discussion. And sometimes I get tunnel vision and forget I do that.
That said, I do think the issue of HOW resources could even be spent to remedy the situation is a tough one. I don't think I've heard anybody dispute that there's a problem, but finding solutions is tough even before you start considering the economics of the situation.
So far, people have suggested additional character advancement incentives, recognition above and beyond existing levels, and additional opportunities to PvP (open PvP, territory control, new maps). Faster balance iteration might help keep people interested. In another post, I mentioned the idea that we could counteract the smaller population pool by shrinking the size of competitive matches to 3v3, which requires far fewer people and reduces organizational overhead.
Anybody else have any good ideas on what could revitalize the ailing competitive PvP scene and keep it healthy? Even before considering the resource requirements?
I'll second this! wtf is the point of an mmo if your resources go towards computer play?
There is a difference between competitive game play and cooperative game play. While I can see the need for pvp in the game, the truth is pvp does exist at present. While it may not be the best of what people desire and I am willing to concede that having a territory game such as a couple of sectors in the neutral zone for open pvp would be a good thing, I don't think that opening up the whole game to flagged pvp is a good idea.
Objective based PvP is where its at. I'd say the vast majority of players could care less who the best escort pilot is or who dies the most. Objective based PvP puts meaning into the conflict. Competitive PvP doesn't do anything to change or advance the game. It only provides fuel for hate-laden PvP related posts about, "so and so's a baddy!"
Mot PvPers don't stay with any title no matter how good the content is. It's silly to even consider them as a viable group to base a game's needs upon. There's a big difference between normal people who like to pvp and the PvP do0dZ players that I am talking specifically about. I don't think they should be catered to. At all. It is economically good policy and for the sake of the community at large, it's nice to not have an MMO's main page filled up with 20+ posts of how bad player X "WTFBBQROFLCOPTERPWN'd" player y.
A tiny, non-resource intensive thing could be additional rewards for continual PvP participation and success. It can't be everything, I figure there is more people require.
This is a tiny pathetic tiny thing perhaps, but - Exploration Missions have this half-hour or so mission where they can get an Emblem all day. Why isn't there such a thing for PvP, too?
I don't know how much this helps organized PvPers, but considering that they are basically not rewarded for continual PvPing can't help their motivation, either. And it doesn't help anyone else, either. (And a PvP mission on 30 minute or 1h timer is also all the motivation for people in PvP to take their time and actually fight in PvP matches - because otherwise you're just sitting around without any change to gain Emblems)
The hot topic of rewarding success - ultimately I am for it, but to be careful with it. Giving the side that wins a PvP match an extra emblem (or maybe even one of the "old" Mark of Honors) would be fair, IMO. Alternatively, item rewards like in Ker'Rat. (But please, not based on damage or healing. Base it on the final score ratios perhaps.
Losers Points to Winners Point - Reward
75-100%: Emblem for Winner, Rare Item and 1 Mark of Honor for Both
50-74 %: Emblem and Very Rare Item for Winner, Uncommon Item for Loser, and 1 Mark of Honor for Both
00-49 %: Emblem for Winner, Rare Item for Winner, 2 Mark of Honor for Both
I don't want the option to easily "game this system". I mean, you can intentionally try to target for one specific result, but it's hard to say which one is actually better.
Maybe an Accolade that tracks your PvP "progress" would be nice, too. Something tracking PvP matches, wins and failures.
This is only the "reward track". I think it can keep people PvPing, but not necessarily the type of people particularly interested in Organized PvP. I think some kind of ranking and ways to halt tournaments will be a necessity.
This represents a very narrow and stereotyped view of what it means to have competitive PvP. There are a great many players who would like to play a game against other players with similar skill levels and interests. The idea that high-level competition is inherently juvenile and undesirable is just as naive as the idea that all PvE-oriented players are one-button wonders who couldn't adapt their way out of a paper bag. Both are absurd, and more than a little closed-minded.
So what DOES competitive PvP actually represent? It's a stable retention environment at the top of the PvP advancement curve. As people play, they get better. As they get better, they need more advanced opponents to provide a challenge. Players who find them continue to play, and bubble up toward high-end PvP. Players who don't, lose interest. They may return to other parts of the game, or they may simply get frustrated and leave. NOT maintaining a stable high-end PvP endgame environment virtually guarantees that it will be one of the latter two possibilities. Think about that. Players who play the game and get good will always be disappointed, because there will be nothing for them at the end of that road. Getting good becomes a formula for getting upset with the game. Playing and improving puts players on a course to leave the game.
As for the idea that high-level competitive PvP only benefits a tiny, self-serving minority... if you think of it only in terms of direct participants, then yes, the best of the best are by definition only a tiny percentage of the population by definition. But, by that measure, professional sports are also utterly tiny and insular. After all, there maybe a couple hundred or so pro-level basketball or football players in the world, right? Why channel hundreds of millions of dollars into that elitist snob-fest?
Highly visible, highly interesting play is an attention magnet for players in the other 99.9% of the population curve. Competition is a draw even for people who aren't super-competitive themselves, because it gives them something interesting to watch, and in some cases, mimic in their own way. Golfers buy the clubs that their favorite pros use. Baseball players change their throwing styles or batting stances. Pro clubs inspire youth leagues and major league franchises sponsor minor league farms. All of these raise involvement and participation in the game.
In gaming circles, a high-end community gives back as well. Competitive Starcraft II players have contributed guides and annotated tutorial videos on a huge array of topics and techniques that excite other, more mainstream players, and encourage them to keep trying - in economic terms, to keep playing, and keep paying. This is highly relevant for obvious reasons to a subscription-based service. WoW raiding wouldn't be nearly as popular and sustainable as it is now, if not for the quantity of player-created support that community provides within itself.
Community. Self-supporting. Retention. Sustainable enterprise. These things go together.
They also don't come for free.
TL;DR: A stable, self-sustaining competitive PvP community represents a way to both retain and attract players and is healthy for a subscription-based game.
Once these systems are in place and stable, I expect the sector map and exploration has to be next. Realistically the real meat and potato pvp revamp is going to end up as part of a first expansion.
Personally I'm fine with that, the game has come miles since launch, hopefully the crew is reading these, and can give us something substantial to chew on in the meantime.
The playing field doesn't seem level to me. And this has nothing to do with one faction or the other. Or skill of the participants. It has to do with the actual mechanics of the playing field itself.
pickup PvP?
i don't get it.
who is organizing this?
i only see the queue's in the game, i guess that is pickup PvP?
also there is some pvp window where i can invite people from my (empty) friends-list... never gonna see that in action and i don't have time for a fleet, nor do i have any intrest in TeamSpeak spam from strangers while i'm playing.
...how is that even working?
I guess the borders are pretty fluent, but I think the moment you stop just queing for games and actively look for people to repeatedly play with or against, you enter "organized PvP" territory. I guess coordinating a PvP fleet matches or even organizing a PvP event like a tournament is pretty much the "highest form"...
The State of the Game address is due on the 15th, and is supposed to focus on KDF issues. Since the KDF was originally marketed as a "PvP faction", I hope that many of the issues and ideas raised in this thread will be addressed there.
I do wish the xp was a little higher per match and the points could be spent on things that are worth having.
The current system works at least. I would prefer open pvp zones and territory control, even a ranking system and from what I have read those things may be in the works so, I'm going with patience for the moment.
Also hoping that the Dev Post brings enough attention to the latest attempt to organize PvP that people will actually join up and follow through, unlike the last few.
As a follow-up:
It would be great if that showed up on the Engineering Report, which I forgot to point out is also due today.
Notably missing: Official PvP tournaments, new BOFF abilities, new PvP gametype that mitigates cloak griefing, adjustments to existing PvP map mechanics (cap and hold = zerg and ditch), ground combat balance adjustments. All great ideas, but all seemingly fallen off the radar. The Engineering Notes do specifically say to take them with a grain of salt because they're neither promises nor all-inclusive, so go ahead and salt to taste.
On the ground note, Ground Combat Changes are mentioned as a Season 3 feature due to its major impact on the code, so ground PvP players are either the least or most fortunate - not much hope until S3, but it's a major revamp feature for that target.
State of the Game: KDF Edition is reportedly submitted to the web team, but won't be posted until tomorrow. We'll see if there's any hope on the horizon, or if the new direction is going to be KDF PvE.
Edit:
"Team Matching for PVP queues" is in the Engineering Notes. I have no idea what this means, but if it means "Teams of 5 will have to wait for another team of 5 to join before being matched against each other" then that's a good idea with absolutely horrible timing.
If there were lots of groups in the queues, then it would be great. With an already-thin population, though, it just means that people who queue as groups will never get games (or will have to spend longer in queue waiting for the queue system to give up and match them against 5 PUGs). Logically, they'd then stop queueing as groups to avoid the wait, further discouraging them from playing as an organized fleet or team.
The game is, of course, a very large and complex entity. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect terribly much space to be dedicated to the game's PvP issues, but KDF was the hot topic, and everyone knows that Klingons and PvP have shared a long and painful history in STO.
That said, the first item on the list is:
Solid PvP experience sounds good, but the devil is in the details. And the details are:
If Cryptic could somehow nail all of these, then they might have something. New maps and gameplay modes would solve issues that have been driving players away since launch. We're all familiar with the queue debacle. And if rewards include both gear and some sort of visible recognition (I don't know, let uber PvPers paint their ships black or something), then that could help to increase participation.
In the end, of course, it IS all about participation. The competitive PvP community in general needs a shot in the arm, and if Cryptic can deliver everything that it's promising here - subject to some interpretation, of course - then maybe there's hope.
There's hope.
But then, there's reality. And the reality is, that of those four items, only the queue is actually in the Engineering Report. Awesome PvP maps, fun gameplay modes, and sought-after rewards are whispers on the wind - promises without even a hint of form or timeframe. Call me a cynic, but gameplay delayed is gameplay denied.
On top of that, there's no hint or indication that a "solid PvP experience" actually includes competitive PvP at all. Everything that was just described could easily be limited to "thank you come again" PUG matches, without meeting the needs of organized PvP, much less shocking the community back to life.
Miracles can happen, but absent that, I think the writing is on the wall for competitive PvP in Star Trek Online. At least until the expansion.