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Liberated hirogen & Allied Cardassians
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
:eek:
The Original Regulator pose that the KDF should get the liberated hirogen with some ships either unlocked after a certain rank and the Allied Cardassians with ships so the hirogen would unlock after a certain rank the Cardassians would too. see the KDF can see eye to eye with both and the Cardassians have space that would get us out of our corner. I say unlock after certain rank so it will shows we will compromise and cryptic can not say that it will take long because the ships are there hirogen are there when your commander and the Cardassians are there when you are captain and Admiral. Would be awesome to see that.
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Also, the liberated Hirogen doesn't make much sense....
stage of unlock
-Klingon tier one(ship are there)
-Orion tier two(ships are there)PI Canis sector block unlock
-hirogen tier three(ship are there)Romulan space unlock
-Cardassians tier Four and five(ship are there)Cardassian space unlock
This will even the game out and get the cluster the heck out of the game.
Liberated from what?
Same reason a Joined Trill would?
Cardassians would make more sense.
In the Mirror Universe Klingons und Cardassians are allied, too (or were) and it obviously works out fine.
And althogh there may be a little bad blood between them after the Dominion war, the Klingons are obviously not that resentfull; when the Dominion war startet the Federation were their "brothers" at once although they were at war with them even a few month before.
And the Cardassians obviously like a more "military" goverment while the Federation pushes them into another direction.
So I thing a Cardassian/Klingon allience would not be that unlikley.
well if there is any other race then the Hirogen that can unlock romulan space and that is already built feel free to sugget it but as the game is built now the only way to even it out and allow the Klingons to leave the small confind space we currently find ourself .
stage of unlock
-Klingon tier one(ship are there)
-Orion tier two(ships are there)PI Canis sector block unlock
-hirogen tier three(ship are there)Romulan space unlock
-Cardassians tier Four and five(ship are there)Cardassian space unlock
This will even the game out and get the cluster the heck out of the game.
1. In what way would another suggestet race change the fact that Hirogen do not need liberation? They are no prisoners or anything, they joined forces with the ´Romulans... why ever.... by free will.
2. Why do we need another race to unlock Romulan space? Beside the fact that the Feds dont need other races to unlock sectors: WE ARE KLINGONS. If we want to Attack the Romulans we just do it. In the... that days because of the Galaxy X often discussed alt. Timeline of "all good things" we even conquered the complete Romulan space.
We neigther need reasons to go there nor hirogen, we just need the map to be opened.
And the Hirogen will probably be part of the upcoming Romulan faction anyway.
What we need to get unlocked are Orion and Gorn ships, they already are our allied.
Cardassians would be nice but i thing they prefer make the cardassian an own fraction sooner or later; if the game lifes that long...
Cardassians... Nope, they would fit in the Fed if at all. The True Way still fights the Dominion War, so both Romulans and Klingons are considered enemies. The Cardassians are very fed-friendly and probably work on fulfilling requirements to join the Fed.
True the Hirogen would fit to the KDF better; anyway in my opinion they dont fit into the Alpha quadrant at all.
And the Cardassians, like I said above, THOSE Cardassians shown in the series do not fit to the federation at all. May be the Dominion war changed their attitude, but they would go with the Klingons much better.
By the way, concerning to races we dont even NEED new allience.
The KDF didnt go with the Orion homeworld. Thats still in Federation space. They allied with the Orion SYNDICATE. Threre are not just Orions in the Orion syndicate, there are... well almost all Alpha quadrant races.
And they do not have a "special" kind of ships, they use the ships they get. So there could me addet AL LOT of Klingon content with the Orions.
I think i get your point i didnt mean too free them from somone but that is how i put it the point i am wnat to make is these steps would solve mult. thing
like spiece added to the KDF
free rome add to the KDF
and more ship options add to the KDF
If i want to get tech i could say the hirogen could need liberation after all some didnt want to be hunters they show intrest in sci so even a sci ship that could hold its own would kick but that geting off topic. and thank for yor input on how to make this a better laid out plan and the gorn Orion we all argee on
Very true the romuanls are more of the hirogens cunning pray and as for the game being cannon that was out the game from the get go. And as for the cardassians wave alittle power in thier face and they may bite other from being a ally in the alt unv we could offer thier space back and protection sence in the canon that what was the issue other then that the cardassians and the Klingon think highly of eachother culture
Well the Idea to "free" a species wich doesnt give a TRIBBLE for science to be able to use science to include science ships into a fraction without science ships... is not really.... logical in my opinion.
Tha Cardassians, who actually give a lot on science as a method to gain power would suite much more for this purpose.
That is true.
But then, the True Way makes no sense at all. So they are supposed to be the Cardassians that oppose the new Fed friendly government and want the old Cardassia back, yet they are allied with the Dominion that destroyed this Cardassia. *head desk*
A loading screen says Natima Lang is a member of the new Cardassian government. She was an outcast for teaching a more liberal policy before the Dominion War. With her in power, I assume the Cardassians that are not in the True Way are now in the position Bajor had before, and will sooner or later join the Fed. Stupid, if you ask me, because no version of the Cardassians is what fans want to play. No-one wants a Fed pet Cardy, and no-one wants a totally illogical True Way. Though, True Way is still the better choice because that faction would also get Jem'Hadar.
Anyways, the Hirogen and Romulans are a close second when it comes to totally no sense. The Hirogen had a network of relais stations in Voyager, shown in season 4, right behind Borg space. IF this network hadn't been destroyed by Janeway, there may have been a tiny chance the Hirogen would have encountered the Romulans. But Janeway did destroy it. No network, no Romulan contact.
On the other side: General Kurok, a liberated Borg Klingon, in a Borg (transwarp capable) sphere, in the Delta Quadrant, in Borg space... is quite a strong point for a KDF-Hirogen alliance. The first Hirogen the Voyager encountered were the swarm ships (season 2, before entering Borg space); all others were 'behind' Borg space. So no matter in what direction Kurok went, he probably met the Hirogen, and it would be logical to make some allies in his situation.
I would rather see Ferengi playable in the KDF. Its a match made in heaven. Ferengi have nearly no customization, bad/wrong traits, and no-one gives a damn. Sounds like KDF to me.
The only of the "big fractions" beside the Federation who were interested in reseatch were, for suprise, Romulans. The arent a "source" for sciences for the Klingons.
The Cardassians care for sience because of other reasons, but still, they care. Enough to make it usable for military purposes; in other words: Science ships.
Yes, its very reasonable to allie with the people who commitet genozide on their homeplanet to get back what they had before that. Isnt that the message of Star Trek, forgivness and that? I see it, it is prophetic: the jews will become big buddys with the neonazis soon.
If the Cardassians want to regain power, an Alliance with the Klingons ist the most logic.
I guess they came up with that True Way TRIBBLE to make a Dominion Fraction possible that has everything the Dominon had during the DW. But the result does not make ANY sense at all. If they wantet that they chose the wrong time, like said, the Dominion commitet Genozide to the Cardassians. There is no way back to be "big friends".
The Alliance doesnt make sense. But I'm not that much wondered about the contact, The Hirogen did build that network once, in 30 years they might have rebuild it.
I wonder how they did come there so fast.
The Voyager hat, with "normal" Warp traven, an 80 year voyage. And the Hirogen can just warp in? Even if they are faster, why SHOULD they travel so far to meet fracking romulans?
The hirogens obviously had a thing for the Klingons anyway, why else did they make a Klingon holosimulation ect?
Thats another thing I dont get. Ferengie a neutral, if there are some in the Federation, why not in or with the KDF? We have Nausicans and Orions, good place for Business!
Their relais stations were about 10.000 years old and build around tiny anomalies (1 cm black holes) that powered them and made such a large network possible. Janeway had the genius idea to destroy such a station, thus releasing the contained anomaly and turning it into a - gravity well. Which sucked in the attacking Hirogen and the station. And then pretty much fragged the entire network. So unless there was another extremly rare anomaly at the right time in the right place, the Hirogen did not get a chance to build a new network.
They also had no reason to extend their territory to Romulan space. The opposite was true. The Hirogen wanted to stop expanding, and give up their life as nomads. That is why they wanted the holo technology - to have enough prey in a smaller territory, and not fall apart as a culture. They had no reason to go anywhere after getting the technology, and even less to make any allies.
But - assuming they met a Klingon (not only Kurok was there, also a Klingon ship that still believed the Empire was at war with the Federation; a leftover ship from a deep space exploration mission), the Hirogen probably found more common traits than with the Romulans. Klingons enjoy hunting and collecting trophies, and they value strength and combat skills. The Hirogen also have a code of honor for their hunts.
With a bit imagination, the Hirogen had the scientific advantage (relais stations, but also armor, weapons, ships were quite advanced) the Klingons wanted; and the Klingons had what the Hirogen needed: a way to combine combat/hunting without losing their culture/territory. The Romulans had... umm, a supernova. Not too appealing to a species trying to get their own structure up and running again.
The Cardassians... I agree. This chaos is nothing but a sad attempt to satisfy fans by giving them a Dominion faction. I doubt anyone will really be happy with whatever comes out of it. The Cardassians had no token Fed member to really justify them as a Fed only species, the end of DS9 and following soft canon gives no option to keep them the way fans loved them - stubborn, arrogant, patriotic and secretive. The True Way is ultimately the continuation of what most people didn't like about Bajorans - extremists that lost the sense for reality and still fight a war that is long over.
Kira was always a perfect example how a species can not forgive in a picturebook utopia. She never got over her prejudice. She used 'I lost my family in the occupation' as a 'I'm always right' button. And the True Way now leads that ad absurdum - 'I survived the Dominion War, but hey, these Jem'Hadar are actually quite nice, I forgive them that they destroyed my world'.
More thoughts... Orions. Agreed on that, too. The KDF is allied with the Syndicate, not the entire world. For what reason? There is no canon saying the Syndicate suddenly got xenophobic. In many cases, the episodes dealing with the Syndicate didn't show a single Orion. It can be assumed they had a LOT members of other species. Members that had proven themselves worthy. So why suddenly kick them all out, reducing resources, possible infiltrators, income...? Just to have Orion in a Fed sector block, you could come to think.
Ferengi are very obviously portrayed the way they were before Rom became Nagus. The NPCs are all criminals, most notably in the company of Nausicaan pirates; Cryptic refers to gold farmers as 'Ferengi Smugglers' in a sticky... Another example of canon continuation gone wrong. Ferenginar is not a Fed member world. Soft canon references show Ferenginar did not happily embrace the new policy - many males opposed Rom and the reformations, it almost came to civil wars, as it can be expected if you change the entire culture of a species over night; so it is only logical some would rather work for... anyone, just not the Federation that corrupted their world. Followed their business partners - Orions, Nausicaans (both are clearly on good terms with the Ferengi Alliance, just like the Breen) to the KDF.
It would be extremly easy to add another playable species in that case - Ferengi are already there. They are just limited to be 'good Starfleet officers', while really all NPCs are working for the KDF species. *head desk*
I thank player like you for adding constutive way to fix the KDF and adressing issue not just pointing them out. I find it as useful as theaching a fed combat as getting most on these forums to solve issues through
debate. I ask all that have ideas on this to add thier input on the promblems that may need re working, but to also add soultion.
Please I get the point you are making but please keep this stikely star trek for everyones best intrest we dont need to strike up any debates on Human genozide.
As for the Cardassians. The Cardassians hate the Klingons, for this: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Betreka_Nebula_Incident and this: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon-Cardassian_War
Your input has been looked at and was very useful
Hirogen, on the other hand... Have no reason to be allied with the Romulans either. The last we've seen of them was in the Delta Quadrant where they were trying to rebuild their own structure. Some Hirogen did see the need for a change in the way they live, that makes an alliance a somewhat believable continuation. Just the allies - Romulans - make no sense. If my culture was falling apart, I would seek an alliance with someone who has similar traditions and instincts and still made it work. Not a species facing even bigger issues.
My best guess why the Romulans are allied with the Hirogen is quite simple: Cryptic doesn't know what other species to give to that faction. I mean, look at it. What is 'confirmed'? Romulans, Remans, Hirogen. And that's it. That faction would only have 2 species without Hirogen, and probably aliens. With the very xenophobic attitude of the Romulans, that alone is out of line. The Hirogen were one of the more popular and prominently featured new species from Voyager, so bam, they have to be in any faction... oh, and the Romulans have no other allies yet, match made in heaven. *echem*
Its a problem I understand - I can't offer many other choices for the Romulan faction. Yridians - as a very secretive race that trades with information (yet Memory Alpha has a reference they are planned as a playable Fed species, despite the notion they are considered not trustworthy) and Flaxians - based on the single DS9 episode featuring a Flaxian (Odo stated the Romulans oftenly hire them as assassins to carry out their death sentences; the Romulan authorities confirmed this particular Flaxian was their operative).
That makes 2 species with very few appearances, Romulans and Remans.
While I personally would love to play a Flaxian and already play a Yridian alien... I can see how this selection is not so appealing to the average player.
But I don't think that general problem could be solved by taking random popular species and add them to the faction with storylines beyond good and evil. Either do your homework, search the hints and mentions of more minor species that worked with or for the Romulans, or simply say that this faction is so xenophobic that they only trust their own kind - and add no other species at all.
As for Ferengi, they should be their own faction as well with the same setup for open travel to any sector of space. They should have the ability to trade cross faction and have a unique crafting mini game.
Maybe even allow both of these neutral groups to align with other factions for PvP battles. Just add a mercenary style PvP mission. These guys could be the unlock races and not really full factions.
A small sector where they can farm a unique crafting material (and make unique items for sale on Exchange or possible auction house); access to all star clusters for PvE and gathering regular material; and a 'joker card' PvP queque where the neutral mercs balance out games with uneven player numbers. That could even be done with some more options - like let the mercenary set a price and sell the service to the higher bidding faction; let the player enlist as 'KDF support' or 'Fed support' only; and give different rewards, so the mercenaries have access to vendors of both sides. Even let them auction their service to fleets - pay the merc 50K and he'll help you in 10 PvP matches, or for 5 days. Be hired as a player's bodyguard and sidekick on PvE content, too.
Sadly, that's utopia.
I would agree the fact is for me i would hate to see other faction build with the lack of development as the klingon thats why i posed the combining of the two to even out bothsides with drawing more player to the klingon side growing our base. I would like love to see one day evey faction playble but until that day it a possabilty that they may ally for now until later thus filling out the game more.
Dev probably aren't even reading this, they could care less whether or not we believe KDF is a gutted Faction and need more... Which is why we are on the back burner really until July. That's when we will really see a few minor tweaks, more then likely, "AKA" Hand Me Downs. Many folks are okay with Hand Me Downs, Hand Me Down "Playable Ferengians", Hand Me Down "Weekly Episodes", Hand Me Down "Memory Alpha" after Federation are all capped and they realize they made the cap to low and change it to be incredibly high, because we didn't get to stockpile Crafting Nodes.
KDF has what? 5 solid races to play? Let's not forget the 1 Lifetime Liberated Borg and the 1 Joined Trill which was part of the Deluxe.
Federation has what? 9 Races to play, plus like 5 buyable via C-Store, and 1 Lifetime and 1 Joined Trill.
I can see the OP's point, I just don't think Cryptic really, to put it bluntly, "Doesn't Care. Period"
Their Canon is Federation in case you haven't noticed.
Federation Online. Star Trek is just a pipe dream.
As far as ships are concerned, we might see more variations, or skins after Federation gets another round of skins for their ships.
POINT: Cryptic, you had better figure it out fast, DO YOUR JOB. Because Klingon's, honorable yes, can only take so much of your neglect before we say, "Goodbye"
And realize, this is coming from a Life-Time Member, I'm already spent in to this disaster and I regret it.... Seriously.
Btw, did I mention Ferengi are flawed to no end and the devs ignore it today? If not, consider it mentioned now. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry but I dont see anything to debate about here. The founders ordered to erase all Cardassians. The whole Species. And before the Alliance Fleet arrived they had already erased whole cities with every living beeing in it. That is genozide. Its not less Genozide because it didnt happen in reality. Then we couldnt call the dominion war "war" because its just science fiction.
If the Hirogen would start to Attack the Klingon Empire on their own we would very quickly see who is prey. And its not the "Bird of Prey", its for sure the ship infront of it.
But as said, Hirogen and Klingons have a lot in common.
One of them is a little incident and both a YEARS ago in STO.
The Klingons and Federation were at war at the same time, and they build an allience even one year after that.
As said, before that Cardassians ans Klingons respectet each other, even more then the Klingons respectet the Federation.
The Gorn for example joined forces with the Klingons emediatly after thei were beaten in war by them. They are not slaves, the Klingons allow them their own goverment ect.
The Cardassians joined forces with the Dominion 1,5 after it destroyed a whole Cardassian/Romulan Fleet.
Joining forces with the Klingons is the best way for Cardassians to get back to what they had before the war. Cardassians are pragmatists. They would do that fur sure.
I personaly thing that, if they ad more other factions, the KDF is the best for the "neutral" Faction. Not because of the Klingons.
They have Orions and Nausicans wich are, beside the Ferengie, the most important "Parts" of the Neutral ST-faction.
The Klingons were not on war with the Federation before they forged the new alliance against the Dominion. Gowron broke up diplomatic relations and contracts, but did not declare war. The Klingons only attacked Cardassia, no Federation worlds or ships. There was no hostility; the Klingons simply didn't agree with the Fed plan to sit and wait.
From that point of view, their behavor in game doesn't make much sense - why declare war on the Feds if the Undine are the enemy? The situtation was very similar - disagreement about how to deal with a third party both sides considered a threat.
The end of the Dominion War was very un-Trek in itself. Cardassia fell, and with it, all possible leaders. It lacked the glimpse of hope Star Trek usually promotes. And that's the root of all issues Cardassians have in STO now.
Damar would have been the logical choice to rebuild a new Cardassia and follow through with the cooperation with the Feds. He was killed before the war officially ended. His family was executed before, so no son to carry his father's torch.
Had Damar survived, Cardassia would have a strong leader seeing the need to work with the Federation, but also the will to stay independent and find a new, own way for his world.
Had Russot survived instead, Cardassia would also have a strong leader - who would be opposed to the Fed friendly policy and try to bring back the old Cardassia. This would have been my favourite option, as it would be the logical one. Russot was in the resistance against the Dominion and still a Cardassian patriot. He would have been the middle way - Cardassia on its own, without Feds, without Dominion.
Had Dukat survived... Oh my, no, I'm not thinking about that option. The story with him and Kai Winn was so absurd, I rather forget it alltogether... But even he, as unpredictable madman, would have made a more interesting Cardassian faction.
So what was left at the end of the war? Garak, with no connection to his homeworld, saying 'the Cardassia he knew is gone and won't come back'. At that point, he says to Kira that all he has left now is revenge. He gets his revenge - so nothing left, especially no political position to change anything about Cardassia's future. Though mentioned in soft canon that he was put in power by the Federation and turned out to be a worse puppet master than Dukat... Could have been a nice twist.
Two more high ranking Cardassians featured in DS9 were long dead - Tain, former head of the Obsidian Order. With him in power, Cardassia would likely have seeked allies other than the Feds. Could have continued in game with a Cardassian-Romulan alliance and solved the problems: Where to put the Cardassians? and What other species to put in the Romulan faction? Somewhat logical as both worlds were in ruins; the Romulans helped to rebuild Cardassia and in return, the Cardassians helped after the supernova or something.
Then Ghemor, Fed friendly liberal Cardassian politician. If put in power, it would probably be the same we have in game now. Fed friendly government, and former political opposition trying to make it fail at any cost.
The only Cardassian left - for the game and in general - was Natima Lang, Fed friendly liberal outcast opposing the military/Obsidian Order and going to exile in... what was it? DS9 season 2, I think. A very minor character with a one episode appearance and the only background summarized in the sentence before. Not much to work with. And that is why the Cardassians are Fed friendly in game now. Because no-one else is left. Blame whoever didn't allow a 8th DS9 season. If the end hadn't been so rushed, we would probably get better playable Cardassians/Cardassian faction.
KDF as a neutral faction doesn't quite work for me. Klingons are not very neutral by nature. The real problem are the Orions here because it contradicts... everything. The episodes dealing with the Orion Syndicate barely show any Orions - but the Syndicate alone is allied with the Klingons, and has only Orions now. It would all make more sense if Orion as a world was allied with the KDF, and the Syndicate would be the renegades because they didn't want to give up their non-Orion members/structure.
The Nausicaans don't concern me so much. As long as they would be a playable race in a neutral faction, it would make sense some are hired by the KDF. Feds, unlikely they would hire pirates, so no need to unlock them there to keep them 'neutral'.
The neutral faction would then include Ferengi Alliance, Orion Syndicate (with a majority of non-Orions, means playble humans, rest is a matter of the alien creator) and Breen as main groups, and more trade-oriented minor species and Nausicaans. Makes 2 Fed species, 2 KDF species and the Breen as faction unique 'major power'.
And Klingons and Feds were at war at Arkanis, it startet in the last episode of season 4.
The Breen as a neutral Species`? We dont know much about the breen, but for sure: They are not neutral! There the Klingons work out much better, for some reason in Books, other games and comics Klingons were often shown as kind of "neutral faction". And ships of no other big faction end up that often at the Black market. They are not perfect, right, but fur sure better then the Breen.
A Breen ship was also said to have attacked a freighter on the way to Cardassia, so the Breen were not on the best terms with the Cardassians before the war. During the war, the Breen were very demanding and used the bad position of the Dominion to their advantage. They certainly didn't become good friends. Breen also employ labor workers of several species/factions in their mining facilities - including Cardassians.
Basically, they are simply no-one's ally - and that makes them neutral.
On the other hand, there are also a few minor references in both canon and novels that Breen are on good terms with the Ferengi - a clearly neutral species. A Breen wrote the only Rule of Acqusition not written by a Ferengi. The Breen sold Ferenginar warp technology. The reference above about the shuttle race. And Quark mentions Breen and Nausicaans as hired guns he could get. Since he knows the price, it can be assumed other Ferengi hired Breen; and that Breen are mercenaries like Nausicaans. Breen selling Ferengi warp drive technology also says the Breen were way more advanced at that time, travelled outside their territory for business matters and must have seen it as more useful to trade with Ferenginar than destroy or conquer it.
So, the Breen are only on clearly good terms with a technologically inferior, neutral species of pacifist traders (Ferengi history has no armed conflicts at all) though they have the means to simply destroy/conquer them and are said to be a 'warrior species' with a clear interest in conquest. They are likely receptive to bribery, and work as mercenaries. Pretty obvious gain strategy: Conquer those that are potentially capable of resistance in case of war; play it nice with those that pose no threat and give you money.