I still believe the biggest issue is lack of content, I won't stop plugging that because it's easy to hit end game after a week or two of playing, THEN, when you finally hit end game, there isn't much to do after that. You're just floating around... doing nothing.
So... instead of building fluff, I think everyone in Cryptic SHOULD be focused on building content, content, content... oh btw. CONTENT, and more content. After that, they should focus on more content, followed by cranking out some content. Finally, when all is said and done, and everything is built content wise, they should add more content with content on top of content, with a side dish of... guess what? CONTENT!
( If Stahl is reading this, HINT HINT)
I'd actually like to see a TON of content, added to make this MMO and actual MMO, otherwise, it's just paying for fluff until we see actual content rolled out... whenever. I really don't care paying for items in the C-Store, and I'm not going to turn that into an argument here, but I will say, that if a butt load of new content isn't rolled out asap then, there isn't much point to STO's existence anymore. Roll it out as an epic fail and move on, we were promised fast releasing content, and we really didn't get that.
Hopefully, things will change in Season 2, and HOPEFULLY that Stahl is large and in charge we can get that content, but until I see results, I'm going to stay on my normal 'wait and see' stance and then pass judgment.
I still believe the biggest issue is lack of content, (...) I'd actually like to see a TON of content, added to make this MMO an actual MMO, otherwise, it's just paying for fluff until we see actual content rolled out... whenever. I really don't care paying for items in the C-Store, and I'm not going to turn that into an argument here, but I will say, that if a butt load of new content isn't rolled out asap then, there isn't much point to STO's existence anymore. Roll it out as an epic fail and move on, we were promised fast releasing content at Launch, and we really didn't get that.
QFT.
It's the main reason I don't play STO anymore even though I have a lifetime account. When UGC hits, and if it's implemented well, that will "save" STO from my viewpoint. Until then Cryptic isn't able to keep up with anyone who isn't a casual gamer.
STO as it stands (minus season 2 content) is about a month of frequent gameplay. After that, there's little to do except grind boring missions which is otherwise pointless. There are ways to make even a grind slightly fun, but Cryptic didn't even go that far. And even leveling alts is a rinse & repeat process since little to no overlap of content throughout the leveling curve.
With Dan Stahl in the lead, perhaps things will change by Season 3? Until then, it was too little, too late from Cryptic.
I still believe the biggest issue is lack of content, I won't stop plugging that because it's easy to hit end game after a week or two of playing, THEN, when you finally hit end game, there isn't much to do after that. You're just floating around... doing nothing.
So... instead of building fluff, I think everyone in Cryptic SHOULD be focused on building content, content, content... oh btw. CONTENT, and more content. After that, they should focus on more content, followed by cranking out some content. Finally, when all is said and done, and everything is built content wise, they should add more content with content on top of content, with a side dish of... guess what? CONTENT!
( If Stahl is reading this, HINT HINT)
I'd actually like to see a TON of content, added to make this MMO an actual MMO, otherwise, it's just paying for fluff until we see actual content rolled out... whenever. I really don't care paying for items in the C-Store, and I'm not going to turn that into an argument here, but I will say, that if a butt load of new content isn't rolled out asap then, there isn't much point to STO's existence anymore. Roll it out as an epic fail and move on, we were promised fast releasing content at Launch, and we really didn't get that.
Hopefully, things will change in Season 2, and HOPEFULLY that Stahl is large and in charge we can get that content, but until I see results, I'm going to stay on my normal 'wait and see' stance and then pass judgment.
Agreed! Bring on the content! You can give me the icing later, but I want my cake now!
Thing with me is this. STO in game is great. I can always find things..
The thing that drives me nuts is the marketing end and customer service end of this game. Which pretty much makes people leave. Lack of content also. It seems Cryptic will always be in a place they will be behind unless they start doing more bigger updates like season 2 to give players more content while they work on new stuff. Also which hurt the game was that it was only in development only for a short while where most mmo's have enouph time for game development to have a good "package" at release to keep people entertained till new updates come out feeding the game more content.
Well, the obvious thing is content. I mean actual CONTENT, not new skins and costumes, races and ships. I mean stories and missions. This game hasn't even a TENTH of the content that Lord of the Rings Online had in its first Beta phase!
However, while that is the obvious answer, I think they are dooming the game with this incredible cash grab, dropping everything on the C-Store. I swear, I simply can't bring myself to play lately, I'm just so disgusted with the greed I'm seeing.
I understand they want to make money, but if they drive the customers away by demanding more and more cash, they will make LESS in the long run. The GREED has to stop.
I don't think the game needs content so much as DEPTH.
Another 20 kill x things, scan y things, talk to z people missions will not make this any better.
Make tricorders and sensors tools for figuring your way through the game. If nothing else, being able to scan planets and major objects will be something to enjoy wasting time doing.
I don't think the game needs content so much as DEPTH.
Another 20 kill x things, scan y things, talk to z people missions will not make this any better.
Make tricorders and sensors tools for figuring your way through the game. If nothing else, being able to scan planets and major objects will be something to enjoy wasting time doing.
Idk... I think the main arguement is: Beat the game in one month... looking for stuff to do... and not seeing anything... bored... wtf.
Majority of threads seem to be that the game is slim content wise and maybe Cryptic should have waited one more year to release STO when there WOULD BE MORE CONTENT. I hate to side with the haters on this, but they seem to have a point. If Cryptic waited that extra year WE WOULD HAVE EVERYTHING WE WERE PROMISED FOR LAUNCH, such as ship interiors, actual PVE Klingon Content, more Fed Content, a ton of fluff that would be justified, and finally, Lifers wouldn't feel like we got the shaft. Just saying.
Idk... I think the main arguement is: Beat the game in one month... looking for stuff to do... and not seeing anything... bored... wtf.
Majority of threads seem to be that the game is slim content wise and maybe Cryptic should have waited one more year to release STO when there WOULD BE MORE CONTENT. I hate to side with the haters on this, but they seem to have a point. If Cryptic waited that extra year WE WOULD HAVE EVERYTHING WE WERE PROMISED FOR LAUNCH, such as ship interiors, actual PVE Klingon Content, more Fed Content, a ton of fluff that would be justified, and finally, Lifers wouldn't feel like we got the shaft. Just saying.
The thing is, you either wouldn't be getting to the end game that quick, or you'd have a reason to go back and play the game over if the game had some depth to it.
If most of the missions required you to work out where to go and/or what to do, they would take longer, so long as they weren't completely obvious. If your choice of class really affected how you approached the game, there would be reason to go with an alt. If missions had variable outcomes based on your choices, you'd have reason to play them again. If systems were full of stuff and had beam down points, you'd have reason to explore them.
None of that is present, so the game is a shallow space combat sim, which means you blow through the content and it gets repetitive very quickly.
There's content and then there's content with drama that makes the game alive. A good example of this is something we've probably seen in other games that have opened up UGC. Typically get you loads of content - possibly more than any one person would ever be able to play -- but would it be content worth playing? Experience says no. (BTW, I'm all for UGC, hopefully it'll have a ranking system like the one described in UGC Features :cool:).
The trick is to identify what makes content "alive" (like a good book you don't want to end) so you can come back to STO for years and years. We have a few things in the list now (see post #1), but I suspect we've only scratched the surface.
Yes, someone necroed it, but it kept going, and now it's alive again.
Rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated!
This thread generally gets a few posts in a week and has since the OP (which was last edited on 7/11 for a tiny grammatical error).
Usually it goes in spurts, someone posts and then there's some follow-up (generally some new blood and some old blood). The thing is, a lot of people feel something is wrong beyond the content issues and there's the hope that if they're identified they can be fixed. Old idea, old problem. Unfortunately, one that's still with us.
Once there's some feedback on Season 2 I'll do another summary (no reason for people to slog through the first 400+ posts) and update the OP with it. So, if you think you know what's wrong, tell us!
I played WoW for a very long time. It has pretty much the same repition in its PvE as STO. The only thing you do is go places and kill things. Sometimes you go places, pick up things, and then bring them back.
But it isn't as if there are WoW quests where you don't know exactly where to go and what to do - especially with the new maps that show you exactly where the next location will be.
So what is this "depth" that everyone is seeking? I think the answer is something mentioned a few times before - variety in replay. The only difference betwen my Engineering officer and my Tactical officer is three buttons I can press when in combat. Other than that it really doesn't matter what choice I make.
I also suspect there may be something inherently more dull about space games. Rather than epic scenery with mountains, cities of lava, or floating castles - you have the deep black of stars and space. Sure there is an occasional interesting asteroid or nebula but it is always pretty much the same stuff. In WoW, Instances take place in rare and fantastical locales, almost theme-park in their look and feel. Trek puts you in a cookie-cutter location like a base or starship interior. Part of this is simply a part of the genre. The actual shows didn't take place in many varied locations - bridges, styrofoam caves, ready rooms - but the character interaction carried the story. This is key.
What is needed to drive interest in the overall game is player investment. EVE learned this lesson well. There are plots, schemes, long term plans, wars...all driven by the actions of the players. A person can feel very much a part of things. The PvE in EVE is incredibly weak. But player involvement drives the whole experience.
STO currently lacks this. It is essentially a solo game that lots of people play at the same time.
Some of us make up for this by roleplaying with other friends online - and that is a satisfying way to immerse in the ST universe. But it wouldn't be a bad thing if Cryptic would join us in encouraging more player involvement in the mechanations of our world.
So what is this "depth" that everyone is seeking? I think the answer is something mentioned a few times before - variety in replay.
That is certainly one aspect that STO lacks. I can level alts with other well-polished MMOs and have a very fulfilling and enjoyable experience due to overlapping content.
But as for depth itself, take a look at LOTRO or AoC (not WoW!). The quests in those polished MMOs have a much richer storyline, with dynamic questing mechanics. Currently STO has the following: 1.) enter system/planet orbit/base/ship, 2.) kill/destroy/activate X number of enemies/bosses, 3.) optional: return to starting point or some other location. With AoC, for example, I've run through single quest-lines that were more interesting than most of STO.
Problem 1: STO needs more mission mechanics. Activating/scanning/destroying nodes and killing enemies is not enough. What about mechanics involving more line-of-sight, zone-triggers, traps, anomalies, etc., etc.? I'm sure most of us are sick and tired of the flat node/creature mechanics.
Problem 2: STO doesn't have overlapping content as you mentioned, Democratus. So leveling an alt is a boring grind though the same missions. There's nothing new to explore with a new alt other than their own abilities/ship.
Problem 3: STO doesn't have enough content overall to keep die-hard/serious MMOers interested. Total number of missions are around 50 (40+ to my knowledge)? If you did three missions a day (for a serious gamer) that's less than 17 days of gameplay for one character. If you did two missions or less a day for casual gamers, you'd still chew through all missions in the game within a month. Other MMOs release with hundreds and hundreds of missions. Granted, most other MMO missions (quests) are usually shorter, some are indeed much more complex and longer than any STO mission.
Problem 4: STO doesn't have an end-game. Some might argue that STFs and dailies are end-game, but the rewards are diminishing, and the STFs zerg-fests only for 5-man groups. Not much to make the game dynamic. End-game for most is running an alt, which is already boring. Even if some call it grinding, LOTRO and AoC has an end-game. Plenty of end-game grinding and slow-build-up achievements over time for other MMOs. The new accolades system is helpful, but again, little to no rewards for each. Nothing to strive for once we've level-capped and have decked-out purple gear. And to do that on one character takes 1 to 2 months. In other MMOs, getting everything end-game might take 6 months to a year, if not longer for the casual player.
For example, I've been playing Metroid Prime and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess lately. I'm enjoying both immensely, and I have tried to figure out why these games are fun and STO is boring, even though both of them essentially involve me going places and killing everything I see.
The difference is that Prime and Zelda present the illusion of choice. They trick you and distract you and force you to reason out the hows of getting where they often very explicitly tell you to go.
In STO, you scan something and the Boff says "Ok that says we should go here, ready to warp Sir?" and BAM you're there. No thought. No choice.
In Prime/Zelda, you scan/read something and it tells you something. It stops short of telling you exactly what that means and presenting you with the go/no go option. So you feel like you reasoned it out and you chose to go there. You didn't. You had no choice, but you feel like you did.
Moreover, Prime and Zelda will trick you and deter you along the way. You can't get to where you know you need to go because you need something first. Or the thing you just got from your last quest opens up a few places you couldn't get to before that you want to investigate because something useful might be there.
There's no distraction in STO. There's no sidetrack to a system that you couldn't get to before or a planet you didn't think you had to go to get where you're going.
Then there's the illusion of variety. When you get where you're going, chances are you need to open a door in Prime/Zelda. But this door opens differently than the last door, so you're not thinking about the fact that you're just opening a door. You're busy with the puzzle.
You'll fight the same exact enemy, with a slightly different skin, repeatedly. But it'll do something slightly different. It'll be immune to a previous weapon or where the previous version hit you with fire, this one hits you with ice.
STO does not do this either. You show up and press F on some consoles. Always the same number of consoles. Always in the same order. Always the same obstacles to get to the consoles. You fight the same enemies who come in the same groups with the same weapons and act the same way.
For example, I've been playing Metroid Prime and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess lately. I'm enjoying both immensely, and I have tried to figure out why these games are fun and STO is boring, even though both of them essentially involve me going places and killing everything I see.
The difference is that Prime and Zelda present the illusion of choice. They trick you and distract you and force you to reason out the hows of getting where they often very explicitly tell you to go.
In STO, you scan something and the Boff says "Ok that says we should go here, ready to warp Sir?" and BAM you're there. No thought. No choice.
In Prime/Zelda, you scan/read something and it tells you something. It stops short of telling you exactly what that means and presenting you with the go/no go option. So you feel like you reasoned it out and you chose to go there. You didn't. You had no choice, but you feel like you did.
Moreover, Prime and Zelda will trick you and deter you along the way. You can't get to where you know you need to go because you need something first. Or the thing you just got from your last quest opens up a few places you couldn't get to before that you want to investigate because something useful might be there.
There's no distraction in STO. There's no sidetrack to a system that you couldn't get to before or a planet you didn't think you had to go to get where you're going.
Then there's the illusion of variety. When you get where you're going, chances are you need to open a door in Prime/Zelda. But this door opens differently than the last door, so you're not thinking about the fact that you're just opening a door. You're busy with the puzzle.
You'll fight the same exact enemy, with a slightly different skin, repeatedly. But it'll do something slightly different. It'll be immune to a previous weapon or where the previous version hit you with fire, this one hits you with ice.
STO does not do this either. You show up and press F on some consoles. Always the same number of consoles. Always in the same order. Always the same obstacles to get to the consoles. You fight the same enemies who come in the same groups with the same weapons and act the same way.
Quite so. I refer you all to my posts about random mission generation. Each such thread has been met with deafening silence, but I keep seeing posts like this, which suggest the kinds of things I've been talking about.
I think the lack of depth refers (as you mentioned) to the bridge officers feeling one-dimensional, trivial story lines (most are find 5 things), your involvement in the story (for the most part there's nothing for a captain to figure out, a know it all BO typically orders them about), crafting, and the map (particularly nebulae). There are a lot of solution threads on these problems and Cryptic is working on fixing at least the maps.
I also suspect there may be something inherently more dull about space games.
I don't see that. Not only could there be epic vistas in space, but some of the missions happen on the ground and there's no reason they can have epic vistas. The problem is more that they are few and far between and there's no motivation to explore what does exist.
Problem 1: STO needs more mission mechanics. Activating/scanning/destroying nodes and killing enemies is not enough. What about mechanics involving more line-of-sight, zone-triggers, traps, anomalies, etc., etc.? I'm sure most of us are sick and tired of the flat node/creature mechanics.
Problem 2: STO doesn't have overlapping content as you mentioned, Democratus. So leveling an alt is a boring grind though the same missions. There's nothing new to explore with a new alt other than their own abilities/ship.
Problem 3: STO doesn't have enough content overall to keep die-hard/serious MMOers interested. Total number of missions are around 50 (40+ to my knowledge)? If you did three missions a day (for a serious gamer) that's less than 17 days of gameplay for one character.
Problem 4: STO doesn't have an end-game. Some might argue that STFs and dailies are end-game, but the rewards are diminishing, and the STFs zerg-fests only for 5-man groups. Not much to make the game dynamic.
QFT! On #2, as new factions become playable (not like the Klingons with fewer PvE missions than fingers and toes), and after UGC is added (see the UGC Features thread) there will hopefully be many enjoyable avenues for alts. Of course, there's "more" content, then there's "enjoyable" content.
On #3/#4, I'd state it differently, you have to be a die-hard fan to stick with. The average MMOer is not only going to quickly get bored with the repetition - but without the need to really train/hone their skills when they get to the STF missions they just throw up their hands and leave. The simple solution for Cryptic is to dumb down the STF missions, but that would just make things worse IMHO. They need to revamp the level 35-55 missions to prepare players for the really hard 56-70 missions (I know those levels don't exist now).
Quite so. I refer you all to my posts about random mission generation. Each such thread has been met with deafening silence, but I keep seeing posts like this, which suggest the kinds of things I've been talking about.
Don't take the deafening silence personally, its hard to find those thought provoking posts. That's one of the reasons why its important for readers to post (and not just lurk), if they don't take action any thread they think good could start to fall out of view and those great ideas get lost forever. It happens all to often.
Don't take the deafening silence personally, its hard to find those thought provoking posts. That's one of the reasons why its important for readers to post (and not just lurk), if they don't take action any thread they think good could start to fall out of view and those great ideas get lost forever. It happens all to often.
quoted for truth.
I have to add, please be aware of the forum rules when expressing concerns.....
( yes. this is from experience.. I have been banned for losing my temper before.... )
I have seen too many good threads closed due to "losing control" and "falling off-topic" or "starting an in-thread war" amongst players or directed at Devs.
We have a voice.... we need to work together. It's frustrating to high-heaven sometimes (boy do I know that), but how are we to get things resolved if we lose the arena to express ourselves?.
A buried, or closed thread due to the above mentioned does all of us "no-good"...and creates a step backwards where we have to start over.
For me it's simple: It's not mentally challenging. Even space battles are just a matter of keeping track of timers and hitting buttons at the right moment. Star Trek is supposed to make you think, and this game doesn't.
Quite so. I refer you all to my posts about random mission generation. Each such thread has been met with deafening silence, but I keep seeing posts like this, which suggest the kinds of things I've been talking about.
I agree with you definition of lack of depth and variety.
However, the problem is that Cryptic probably did it this way because its the way most MMOs do it. MMOs are more public than single player games, and have a large following that are able to 'complain' and feedback directly back to the devs, and there's the expectancy that the dev team does something about it. Single player games do not.
What this means is that in order to reduce complaints about complexity and difficulty, often MMOs get dumbed down to the lowest common denominator of gamers. Its not surprising that just today i answered to a post on a forum for monster hunter on how to change weapons (stupidly basic). Alot of people didn't know and the reason is that there's no instruction in-game for it, which i thought was because of how obvious is it.
Its the reason why we still have those stupid tips when we beam onto spacedock.
That said, i would love if Cryptic went the slightly unsafe route and brought in that depth your talking about. Make us flounder about more. Give us stuff that surprise us, distract us, and i dont mean those DSEs you can spot a mile away, or anomalies. Do better than WoW. It had this depth, sort of, but it was irritating. The travel distances were too long, making proper exploration a chore. Give us something in-between.
Seems to me that STO needed saving once before when perpetual had it. There were rumors floating around that it would be Vaporware and then comes Cryptic, who indeed did save it. Now we have a game that was released unfinished due to contractual obligations and crytic certainly seems to be adding new content and bug fixes constantly. I seen two content updates since I started playing last week, so I have to agree with Windlight, this games doesnt need saving, it just need players who wont complain about it constantly and want everything right now.
i agree , and to be honest im sick of people posting stuff like 'this isnt the star trek game we hoped for' then offering nothing at all to the discussion (not all of you, but so many people really have no idea what they want and just rag on the game for not meeting goals that dont even exist). the devs listen, and if you check out tribble youll see they are going in the right direction. bring something useful to the table, dont just TRIBBLE on it and ignore that the game does have a ton of potential. Just because it wasnt exactly what everyone's inflated vision hoped for doesnt mean it needs 'saving'.
also people say it was rushed to be released, this is an obvious truth, but dont turn right after around and ignore this fact and act like a lack of content and variety is some kind of flaw with the core game. it just needs time and the devs definatly know what issues the game has and are working hard to address them.
olay im ranting now , sorry . but some ppl really need to consider the context of their arguments
Maybe the thread title is out of context by now. At this point, I see mostly suggestions revamps that will bring the game forward out of the background, or even foreground, and into the limelight. So its not so much about 'saving STO as a dying game'.
Thanks for all the replies and input to my comments. Makes me feel like I'm actually part of a conversation.
I'm still a bit confused, though, by some of these concepts. What is meant by "End Game Content"? My experience in playing WoW, EVE, and D& D Online are that things are pretty much the same at high/max level as at low levels. You find stuff and kill it. Only at max level you don't gain experience. Maybe some PvP plays into it?
Because I'm long winded, I'm going to share my favorite online Star Trek gaming experience. Mainly because it is what I hope to someday recapture again.
This was on a game called TrekMUSE, back in the 90's. The game was very true to ST. A ship required multiple players to even fly it (helm, weapons, engineering, etc.) and a player could apply real skills to excell. I was good at doing polar coordinate math in my head in real time, so I was a helmsman. The engineer was responsible for routing engine power to various systems - shields, weapons, engines...and there was only so much to go around. So we had shortcuts to help. If the captain said, "Configuration Alpha" it told the engineer to give 60% power to weapons, 30% to shields, and 10% to engines. And so on.
So, I was playing a Klingon officer. I was only freshly commissioned so I was running freighter duty. In this game an empire's income was determined by players visiting planets in freighters and making profits. This money determined what the high command could afford to purchase (ships) for the month. I had just returned to the homeworld after being chased by a Cardassian trying to interdict trade on the border when I got a call from my commander. I was to meet with my House at our usual pub.
Once gathered, our House leader revealed some intelligence he had gathered through Orion spies (also players). The Federation had just finished building their first dreadnought and was going to have a huge celebration at its christening. Top level personnel (all of them players) from around the Federation were going to gather on the ship during its launch and inagural voyage. We had a different plan for this party.
In TrekMUSE all Romulan and some Klingon ships could cloak. However, they left an ion trail that was detectable behind them. The trail lingered for a long time, sometimes hours, before it faded. Our house took every available ship and flew out under cloak to the location deep inside the Federation core where the dreadnought was going to pass on parade. We stayed there, under cloak, for 4 HOURS to insure we were undetectable. We traded stories of ancient Klingon lore and told tales of our exploits to pass the time.
Then comes the time of the parade. The Federation president, his advisors, dignitaires from all over the federation...having a ball inside the new dreadnought. Other civilian ships showed up and lined the way for the new display of Federation economic might (several month's income) hove into view.
Then we struck. As one we uncloaked in the middle of the unsuspecting crowd and unloaded into the crowning jewel of the Federation. They were caught completely by surprise - an inexperienced crew was on the bridge of the dread - to allow the captain and officers a place at the party - and they were unable to cope with the tactical situation. We swiftly destroyed the massive ship and ran back for the Klingon border under cloak.
The news of our bold attack spread like wildfire. By the time we were back in our tavern, drinking to our fortune, the Emperor himself came out to congratulate us! He had not known about our plan (plausable deniability) but now claimed it as his own. We spent the rest of the night singing songs and slapping each other on the backs.
The Federation, while still an economic juggernaught, had suffered a blow they did not soon forget!
This is the kind of thing I would like to see again. A game where the players shape the world and where teamwork and skill can create amazing moments - much like in the Star Trek universe itself. Will I ever see it again? Probably not. But there is always hope.
It doesn't have the draw of new players and the turnaround time is too fast. Based on how often the number comes up in negative posts, it appears it takes about two weeks for people to lose interest in the game. (That also follows with my personal experience.) The hardcore people hit the level cap around then and the casuals begin to get bored of the same missions over and over again.
The addition of two new missions to the rotation (diplomacy, fc) is helpful, but does not address the actual problem of shallow and repetitive content. Ship interiors are cool, but still non-functional and really poorly scaled. Mini-games like poker or Dabo are cute, but ultimately are not unique enough to warrant doing them in STO for long periods of time.
My consistent opinion to really get the game to be something that grabs people and holds them is to:
1. Turn every static system currently in the game into a fully navigable solar system. Change "Full Impulse" to "Warp Speed" for this purpose, putting the ship on a high speed linear trajectory allowing for quick travel inside the system.
2. Add a minimum of one Point of Interest to every one of those systems, with Point of Interest being anything from a potential unique item to a generated mission to a beam down location with unique shops etc.
3. Make it possible to scan every major object in the game and get detailed information about it, then have that information assist in completing quests, potentially drop or combine with other scans to create items, and just generally be interesting enough to warrant wandering around doing it.
4. Reconfigure quests to have branch points with dialog options.
5. Overhaul Sector Space to look like space and reduce instancing during travel as much as possible.
6. Overhauling camera/AI pathing to allow for better scaled interiors
7. Turn the neutral zone into an open PVP area. Ships fire at each other in that area, and x amount of damage takes you out of warp into an instance of real combat. Or you can ambush people and/or attempt to run to neutral zone systems to fight as well.
At that point, I think you'd be at "completed" for the game, and then would move into bonuses such as:
(and these are not in any particular order)
1. Overhaul skills, items, and specs to be easier to understand and more definitive
2. Contestable areas in PVP
3. Voicework/Cinematics
4. Travel in Sector Space while in ship interiors
5. Overhaul ship combat to allow for better subsystem targeting/disabling of ships, etc.
6. New factions
Thanks for all the replies and input to my comments. Makes me feel like I'm actually part of a conversation.
I'm still a bit confused, though, by some of these concepts. What is meant by "End Game Content"? My experience in playing WoW, EVE, and D& D Online are that things are pretty much the same at high/max level as at low levels. You find stuff and kill it. Only at max level you don't gain experience. Maybe some PvP plays into it?
Because I'm long winded, I'm going to share my favorite online Star Trek gaming experience. Mainly because it is what I hope to someday recapture again.
This was on a game called TrekMUSE, back in the 90's. The game was very true to ST. A ship required multiple players to even fly it (helm, weapons, engineering, etc.) and a player could apply real skills to excell. I was good at doing polar coordinate math in my head in real time, so I was a helmsman. The engineer was responsible for routing engine power to various systems - shields, weapons, engines...and there was only so much to go around. So we had shortcuts to help. If the captain said, "Configuration Alpha" it told the engineer to give 60% power to weapons, 30% to shields, and 10% to engines. And so on.
So, I was playing a Klingon officer. I was only freshly commissioned so I was running freighter duty. In this game an empire's income was determined by players visiting planets in freighters and making profits. This money determined what the high command could afford to purchase (ships) for the month. I had just returned to the homeworld after being chased by a Cardassian trying to interdict trade on the border when I got a call from my commander. I was to meet with my House at our usual pub.
Once gathered, our House leader revealed some intelligence he had gathered through Orion spies (also players). The Federation had just finished building their first dreadnought and was going to have a huge celebration at its christening. Top level personnel (all of them players) from around the Federation were going to gather on the ship during its launch and inagural voyage. We had a different plan for this party.
In TrekMUSE all Romulan and some Klingon ships could cloak. However, they left an ion trail that was detectable behind them. The trail lingered for a long time, sometimes hours, before it faded. Our house took every available ship and flew out under cloak to the location deep inside the Federation core where the dreadnought was going to pass on parade. We stayed there, under cloak, for 4 HOURS to insure we were undetectable. We traded stories of ancient Klingon lore and told tales of our exploits to pass the time.
Then comes the time of the parade. The Federation president, his advisors, dignitaires from all over the federation...having a ball inside the new dreadnought. Other civilian ships showed up and lined the way for the new display of Federation economic might (several month's income) hove into view.
Then we struck. As one we uncloaked in the middle of the unsuspecting crowd and unloaded into the crowning jewel of the Federation. They were caught completely by surprise - an inexperienced crew was on the bridge of the dread - to allow the captain and officers a place at the party - and they were unable to cope with the tactical situation. We swiftly destroyed the massive ship and ran back for the Klingon border under cloak.
The news of our bold attack spread like wildfire. By the time we were back in our tavern, drinking to our fortune, the Emperor himself came out to congratulate us! He had not known about our plan (plausable deniability) but now claimed it as his own. We spent the rest of the night singing songs and slapping each other on the backs.
The Federation, while still an economic juggernaught, had suffered a blow they did not soon forget!
This is the kind of thing I would like to see again. A game where the players shape the world and where teamwork and skill can create amazing moments - much like in the Star Trek universe itself. Will I ever see it again? Probably not. But there is always hope.
It's moments like those that I thought this game would recreate or at least make possible, but the problem is at STO's core. It isn't a simulation. It seems to me that Cryptic wanted to appeal more to causal gamers rather than players looking for persistent, shape-able depth. I've heard it around the forum that STO isn't supposed to be a simulation and will never be a simulation, and that for me spoils it. How can I feel like I'm part of a universe if that universe isn't meant to be simulated?
I have to add, please be aware of the forum rules when expressing concerns.....
( yes. this is from experience.. I have been banned for losing my temper before.... )
I have seen too many good threads closed due to "losing control" and "falling off-topic" or "starting an in-thread war" amongst players or directed at Devs.
We have a voice.... we need to work together. It's frustrating to high-heaven sometimes (boy do I know that), but how are we to get things resolved if we lose the arena to express ourselves?.
A buried, or closed thread due to the above mentioned does all of us "no-good"...and creates a step backwards where we have to start over.
peace.
:cool::)
Amen!
I think we've come close a few times to being "closed", fortunately the moderators have cut us a lot of slack. The "problem" with not being a "solution" thread (one that suggests a "solution") - is that a casual glance at this thread makes this thread look a lot like a "whining" thread (one that rags on the game). And certainly, a lot of people have vented here. That's not what this thread is about!
Really, we're the gauge for every "solution" thread out there - and should be one of the gauges by which Cryptic makes decisions on what to do next. if a solution doesn't solve a problem than its just not as important as a solution that does solve problems.
That's why everyone's honest and constructive thoughts are so important. I know discussing problems makes people nervous. But if we (and more importantly Cryptic) don't truly understand the issues there's practically no chance to significantly improve the game.
So sure, this thread is talking about problems - but hopefully in a positive way (by people that love the game and care enough to post) that can ultimately help the game.
Comments
And on this point... we agree completely. XD
QFT.
It's the main reason I don't play STO anymore even though I have a lifetime account. When UGC hits, and if it's implemented well, that will "save" STO from my viewpoint. Until then Cryptic isn't able to keep up with anyone who isn't a casual gamer.
STO as it stands (minus season 2 content) is about a month of frequent gameplay. After that, there's little to do except grind boring missions which is otherwise pointless. There are ways to make even a grind slightly fun, but Cryptic didn't even go that far. And even leveling alts is a rinse & repeat process since little to no overlap of content throughout the leveling curve.
With Dan Stahl in the lead, perhaps things will change by Season 3? Until then, it was too little, too late from Cryptic.
Agreed! Bring on the content! You can give me the icing later, but I want my cake now!
The thing that drives me nuts is the marketing end and customer service end of this game. Which pretty much makes people leave. Lack of content also. It seems Cryptic will always be in a place they will be behind unless they start doing more bigger updates like season 2 to give players more content while they work on new stuff. Also which hurt the game was that it was only in development only for a short while where most mmo's have enouph time for game development to have a good "package" at release to keep people entertained till new updates come out feeding the game more content.
Have to see if things change...
However, while that is the obvious answer, I think they are dooming the game with this incredible cash grab, dropping everything on the C-Store. I swear, I simply can't bring myself to play lately, I'm just so disgusted with the greed I'm seeing.
I understand they want to make money, but if they drive the customers away by demanding more and more cash, they will make LESS in the long run. The GREED has to stop.
I think you misread the dates. The last four pages had posts from July.
look at the date
Yes, someone necroed it, but it kept going, and now it's alive again.
Another 20 kill x things, scan y things, talk to z people missions will not make this any better.
Make tricorders and sensors tools for figuring your way through the game. If nothing else, being able to scan planets and major objects will be something to enjoy wasting time doing.
Idk... I think the main arguement is: Beat the game in one month... looking for stuff to do... and not seeing anything... bored... wtf.
Majority of threads seem to be that the game is slim content wise and maybe Cryptic should have waited one more year to release STO when there WOULD BE MORE CONTENT. I hate to side with the haters on this, but they seem to have a point. If Cryptic waited that extra year WE WOULD HAVE EVERYTHING WE WERE PROMISED FOR LAUNCH, such as ship interiors, actual PVE Klingon Content, more Fed Content, a ton of fluff that would be justified, and finally, Lifers wouldn't feel like we got the shaft. Just saying.
The thing is, you either wouldn't be getting to the end game that quick, or you'd have a reason to go back and play the game over if the game had some depth to it.
If most of the missions required you to work out where to go and/or what to do, they would take longer, so long as they weren't completely obvious. If your choice of class really affected how you approached the game, there would be reason to go with an alt. If missions had variable outcomes based on your choices, you'd have reason to play them again. If systems were full of stuff and had beam down points, you'd have reason to explore them.
None of that is present, so the game is a shallow space combat sim, which means you blow through the content and it gets repetitive very quickly.
There's content and then there's content with drama that makes the game alive. A good example of this is something we've probably seen in other games that have opened up UGC. Typically get you loads of content - possibly more than any one person would ever be able to play -- but would it be content worth playing? Experience says no. (BTW, I'm all for UGC, hopefully it'll have a ranking system like the one described in UGC Features :cool:).
The trick is to identify what makes content "alive" (like a good book you don't want to end) so you can come back to STO for years and years. We have a few things in the list now (see post #1), but I suspect we've only scratched the surface.
I think you fail to graps the concept of "necro" in terms of threads. Calling out old, long-past necros is as bad as necroing itself.
Rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated!
This thread generally gets a few posts in a week and has since the OP (which was last edited on 7/11 for a tiny grammatical error).
Usually it goes in spurts, someone posts and then there's some follow-up (generally some new blood and some old blood). The thing is, a lot of people feel something is wrong beyond the content issues and there's the hope that if they're identified they can be fixed. Old idea, old problem. Unfortunately, one that's still with us.
Once there's some feedback on Season 2 I'll do another summary (no reason for people to slog through the first 400+ posts) and update the OP with it. So, if you think you know what's wrong, tell us!
But it isn't as if there are WoW quests where you don't know exactly where to go and what to do - especially with the new maps that show you exactly where the next location will be.
So what is this "depth" that everyone is seeking? I think the answer is something mentioned a few times before - variety in replay. The only difference betwen my Engineering officer and my Tactical officer is three buttons I can press when in combat. Other than that it really doesn't matter what choice I make.
I also suspect there may be something inherently more dull about space games. Rather than epic scenery with mountains, cities of lava, or floating castles - you have the deep black of stars and space. Sure there is an occasional interesting asteroid or nebula but it is always pretty much the same stuff. In WoW, Instances take place in rare and fantastical locales, almost theme-park in their look and feel. Trek puts you in a cookie-cutter location like a base or starship interior. Part of this is simply a part of the genre. The actual shows didn't take place in many varied locations - bridges, styrofoam caves, ready rooms - but the character interaction carried the story. This is key.
What is needed to drive interest in the overall game is player investment. EVE learned this lesson well. There are plots, schemes, long term plans, wars...all driven by the actions of the players. A person can feel very much a part of things. The PvE in EVE is incredibly weak. But player involvement drives the whole experience.
STO currently lacks this. It is essentially a solo game that lots of people play at the same time.
Some of us make up for this by roleplaying with other friends online - and that is a satisfying way to immerse in the ST universe. But it wouldn't be a bad thing if Cryptic would join us in encouraging more player involvement in the mechanations of our world.
That is certainly one aspect that STO lacks. I can level alts with other well-polished MMOs and have a very fulfilling and enjoyable experience due to overlapping content.
But as for depth itself, take a look at LOTRO or AoC (not WoW!). The quests in those polished MMOs have a much richer storyline, with dynamic questing mechanics. Currently STO has the following: 1.) enter system/planet orbit/base/ship, 2.) kill/destroy/activate X number of enemies/bosses, 3.) optional: return to starting point or some other location. With AoC, for example, I've run through single quest-lines that were more interesting than most of STO.
Problem 1: STO needs more mission mechanics. Activating/scanning/destroying nodes and killing enemies is not enough. What about mechanics involving more line-of-sight, zone-triggers, traps, anomalies, etc., etc.? I'm sure most of us are sick and tired of the flat node/creature mechanics.
Problem 2: STO doesn't have overlapping content as you mentioned, Democratus. So leveling an alt is a boring grind though the same missions. There's nothing new to explore with a new alt other than their own abilities/ship.
Problem 3: STO doesn't have enough content overall to keep die-hard/serious MMOers interested. Total number of missions are around 50 (40+ to my knowledge)? If you did three missions a day (for a serious gamer) that's less than 17 days of gameplay for one character. If you did two missions or less a day for casual gamers, you'd still chew through all missions in the game within a month. Other MMOs release with hundreds and hundreds of missions. Granted, most other MMO missions (quests) are usually shorter, some are indeed much more complex and longer than any STO mission.
Problem 4: STO doesn't have an end-game. Some might argue that STFs and dailies are end-game, but the rewards are diminishing, and the STFs zerg-fests only for 5-man groups. Not much to make the game dynamic. End-game for most is running an alt, which is already boring. Even if some call it grinding, LOTRO and AoC has an end-game. Plenty of end-game grinding and slow-build-up achievements over time for other MMOs. The new accolades system is helpful, but again, little to no rewards for each. Nothing to strive for once we've level-capped and have decked-out purple gear. And to do that on one character takes 1 to 2 months. In other MMOs, getting everything end-game might take 6 months to a year, if not longer for the casual player.
For example, I've been playing Metroid Prime and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess lately. I'm enjoying both immensely, and I have tried to figure out why these games are fun and STO is boring, even though both of them essentially involve me going places and killing everything I see.
The difference is that Prime and Zelda present the illusion of choice. They trick you and distract you and force you to reason out the hows of getting where they often very explicitly tell you to go.
In STO, you scan something and the Boff says "Ok that says we should go here, ready to warp Sir?" and BAM you're there. No thought. No choice.
In Prime/Zelda, you scan/read something and it tells you something. It stops short of telling you exactly what that means and presenting you with the go/no go option. So you feel like you reasoned it out and you chose to go there. You didn't. You had no choice, but you feel like you did.
Moreover, Prime and Zelda will trick you and deter you along the way. You can't get to where you know you need to go because you need something first. Or the thing you just got from your last quest opens up a few places you couldn't get to before that you want to investigate because something useful might be there.
There's no distraction in STO. There's no sidetrack to a system that you couldn't get to before or a planet you didn't think you had to go to get where you're going.
Then there's the illusion of variety. When you get where you're going, chances are you need to open a door in Prime/Zelda. But this door opens differently than the last door, so you're not thinking about the fact that you're just opening a door. You're busy with the puzzle.
You'll fight the same exact enemy, with a slightly different skin, repeatedly. But it'll do something slightly different. It'll be immune to a previous weapon or where the previous version hit you with fire, this one hits you with ice.
STO does not do this either. You show up and press F on some consoles. Always the same number of consoles. Always in the same order. Always the same obstacles to get to the consoles. You fight the same enemies who come in the same groups with the same weapons and act the same way.
Quite so. I refer you all to my posts about random mission generation. Each such thread has been met with deafening silence, but I keep seeing posts like this, which suggest the kinds of things I've been talking about.
I think the lack of depth refers (as you mentioned) to the bridge officers feeling one-dimensional, trivial story lines (most are find 5 things), your involvement in the story (for the most part there's nothing for a captain to figure out, a know it all BO typically orders them about), crafting, and the map (particularly nebulae). There are a lot of solution threads on these problems and Cryptic is working on fixing at least the maps.
I don't see that. Not only could there be epic vistas in space, but some of the missions happen on the ground and there's no reason they can have epic vistas. The problem is more that they are few and far between and there's no motivation to explore what does exist.
i very much agree with this! Social sandboxes (like the Starbase thread) would give players enormous amounts of different things to do.
QFT! On #2, as new factions become playable (not like the Klingons with fewer PvE missions than fingers and toes), and after UGC is added (see the UGC Features thread) there will hopefully be many enjoyable avenues for alts. Of course, there's "more" content, then there's "enjoyable" content.
On #3/#4, I'd state it differently, you have to be a die-hard fan to stick with. The average MMOer is not only going to quickly get bored with the repetition - but without the need to really train/hone their skills when they get to the STF missions they just throw up their hands and leave. The simple solution for Cryptic is to dumb down the STF missions, but that would just make things worse IMHO. They need to revamp the level 35-55 missions to prepare players for the really hard 56-70 missions (I know those levels don't exist now).
Thanks LotD! That was a thought provoking good-read. I'm going to have think about that a bit before I reply!
Don't take the deafening silence personally, its hard to find those thought provoking posts. That's one of the reasons why its important for readers to post (and not just lurk), if they don't take action any thread they think good could start to fall out of view and those great ideas get lost forever. It happens all to often.
quoted for truth.
I have to add, please be aware of the forum rules when expressing concerns.....
( yes. this is from experience.. I have been banned for losing my temper before.... )
I have seen too many good threads closed due to "losing control" and "falling off-topic" or "starting an in-thread war" amongst players or directed at Devs.
We have a voice.... we need to work together. It's frustrating to high-heaven sometimes (boy do I know that), but how are we to get things resolved if we lose the arena to express ourselves?.
A buried, or closed thread due to the above mentioned does all of us "no-good"...and creates a step backwards where we have to start over.
peace.
:cool::)
it is an MMO after all
I agree with you definition of lack of depth and variety.
However, the problem is that Cryptic probably did it this way because its the way most MMOs do it. MMOs are more public than single player games, and have a large following that are able to 'complain' and feedback directly back to the devs, and there's the expectancy that the dev team does something about it. Single player games do not.
What this means is that in order to reduce complaints about complexity and difficulty, often MMOs get dumbed down to the lowest common denominator of gamers. Its not surprising that just today i answered to a post on a forum for monster hunter on how to change weapons (stupidly basic). Alot of people didn't know and the reason is that there's no instruction in-game for it, which i thought was because of how obvious is it.
Its the reason why we still have those stupid tips when we beam onto spacedock.
That said, i would love if Cryptic went the slightly unsafe route and brought in that depth your talking about. Make us flounder about more. Give us stuff that surprise us, distract us, and i dont mean those DSEs you can spot a mile away, or anomalies. Do better than WoW. It had this depth, sort of, but it was irritating. The travel distances were too long, making proper exploration a chore. Give us something in-between.
i agree , and to be honest im sick of people posting stuff like 'this isnt the star trek game we hoped for' then offering nothing at all to the discussion (not all of you, but so many people really have no idea what they want and just rag on the game for not meeting goals that dont even exist). the devs listen, and if you check out tribble youll see they are going in the right direction. bring something useful to the table, dont just TRIBBLE on it and ignore that the game does have a ton of potential. Just because it wasnt exactly what everyone's inflated vision hoped for doesnt mean it needs 'saving'.
also people say it was rushed to be released, this is an obvious truth, but dont turn right after around and ignore this fact and act like a lack of content and variety is some kind of flaw with the core game. it just needs time and the devs definatly know what issues the game has and are working hard to address them.
olay im ranting now , sorry . but some ppl really need to consider the context of their arguments
I'm still a bit confused, though, by some of these concepts. What is meant by "End Game Content"? My experience in playing WoW, EVE, and D& D Online are that things are pretty much the same at high/max level as at low levels. You find stuff and kill it. Only at max level you don't gain experience. Maybe some PvP plays into it?
Because I'm long winded, I'm going to share my favorite online Star Trek gaming experience. Mainly because it is what I hope to someday recapture again.
This was on a game called TrekMUSE, back in the 90's. The game was very true to ST. A ship required multiple players to even fly it (helm, weapons, engineering, etc.) and a player could apply real skills to excell. I was good at doing polar coordinate math in my head in real time, so I was a helmsman. The engineer was responsible for routing engine power to various systems - shields, weapons, engines...and there was only so much to go around. So we had shortcuts to help. If the captain said, "Configuration Alpha" it told the engineer to give 60% power to weapons, 30% to shields, and 10% to engines. And so on.
So, I was playing a Klingon officer. I was only freshly commissioned so I was running freighter duty. In this game an empire's income was determined by players visiting planets in freighters and making profits. This money determined what the high command could afford to purchase (ships) for the month. I had just returned to the homeworld after being chased by a Cardassian trying to interdict trade on the border when I got a call from my commander. I was to meet with my House at our usual pub.
Once gathered, our House leader revealed some intelligence he had gathered through Orion spies (also players). The Federation had just finished building their first dreadnought and was going to have a huge celebration at its christening. Top level personnel (all of them players) from around the Federation were going to gather on the ship during its launch and inagural voyage. We had a different plan for this party.
In TrekMUSE all Romulan and some Klingon ships could cloak. However, they left an ion trail that was detectable behind them. The trail lingered for a long time, sometimes hours, before it faded. Our house took every available ship and flew out under cloak to the location deep inside the Federation core where the dreadnought was going to pass on parade. We stayed there, under cloak, for 4 HOURS to insure we were undetectable. We traded stories of ancient Klingon lore and told tales of our exploits to pass the time.
Then comes the time of the parade. The Federation president, his advisors, dignitaires from all over the federation...having a ball inside the new dreadnought. Other civilian ships showed up and lined the way for the new display of Federation economic might (several month's income) hove into view.
Then we struck. As one we uncloaked in the middle of the unsuspecting crowd and unloaded into the crowning jewel of the Federation. They were caught completely by surprise - an inexperienced crew was on the bridge of the dread - to allow the captain and officers a place at the party - and they were unable to cope with the tactical situation. We swiftly destroyed the massive ship and ran back for the Klingon border under cloak.
The news of our bold attack spread like wildfire. By the time we were back in our tavern, drinking to our fortune, the Emperor himself came out to congratulate us! He had not known about our plan (plausable deniability) but now claimed it as his own. We spent the rest of the night singing songs and slapping each other on the backs.
The Federation, while still an economic juggernaught, had suffered a blow they did not soon forget!
This is the kind of thing I would like to see again. A game where the players shape the world and where teamwork and skill can create amazing moments - much like in the Star Trek universe itself. Will I ever see it again? Probably not. But there is always hope.
It doesn't have the draw of new players and the turnaround time is too fast. Based on how often the number comes up in negative posts, it appears it takes about two weeks for people to lose interest in the game. (That also follows with my personal experience.) The hardcore people hit the level cap around then and the casuals begin to get bored of the same missions over and over again.
The addition of two new missions to the rotation (diplomacy, fc) is helpful, but does not address the actual problem of shallow and repetitive content. Ship interiors are cool, but still non-functional and really poorly scaled. Mini-games like poker or Dabo are cute, but ultimately are not unique enough to warrant doing them in STO for long periods of time.
My consistent opinion to really get the game to be something that grabs people and holds them is to:
1. Turn every static system currently in the game into a fully navigable solar system. Change "Full Impulse" to "Warp Speed" for this purpose, putting the ship on a high speed linear trajectory allowing for quick travel inside the system.
2. Add a minimum of one Point of Interest to every one of those systems, with Point of Interest being anything from a potential unique item to a generated mission to a beam down location with unique shops etc.
3. Make it possible to scan every major object in the game and get detailed information about it, then have that information assist in completing quests, potentially drop or combine with other scans to create items, and just generally be interesting enough to warrant wandering around doing it.
4. Reconfigure quests to have branch points with dialog options.
5. Overhaul Sector Space to look like space and reduce instancing during travel as much as possible.
6. Overhauling camera/AI pathing to allow for better scaled interiors
7. Turn the neutral zone into an open PVP area. Ships fire at each other in that area, and x amount of damage takes you out of warp into an instance of real combat. Or you can ambush people and/or attempt to run to neutral zone systems to fight as well.
At that point, I think you'd be at "completed" for the game, and then would move into bonuses such as:
(and these are not in any particular order)
1. Overhaul skills, items, and specs to be easier to understand and more definitive
2. Contestable areas in PVP
3. Voicework/Cinematics
4. Travel in Sector Space while in ship interiors
5. Overhaul ship combat to allow for better subsystem targeting/disabling of ships, etc.
6. New factions
It's moments like those that I thought this game would recreate or at least make possible, but the problem is at STO's core. It isn't a simulation. It seems to me that Cryptic wanted to appeal more to causal gamers rather than players looking for persistent, shape-able depth. I've heard it around the forum that STO isn't supposed to be a simulation and will never be a simulation, and that for me spoils it. How can I feel like I'm part of a universe if that universe isn't meant to be simulated?
Amen!
I think we've come close a few times to being "closed", fortunately the moderators have cut us a lot of slack. The "problem" with not being a "solution" thread (one that suggests a "solution") - is that a casual glance at this thread makes this thread look a lot like a "whining" thread (one that rags on the game). And certainly, a lot of people have vented here. That's not what this thread is about!
Really, we're the gauge for every "solution" thread out there - and should be one of the gauges by which Cryptic makes decisions on what to do next. if a solution doesn't solve a problem than its just not as important as a solution that does solve problems.
That's why everyone's honest and constructive thoughts are so important. I know discussing problems makes people nervous. But if we (and more importantly Cryptic) don't truly understand the issues there's practically no chance to significantly improve the game.
So sure, this thread is talking about problems - but hopefully in a positive way (by people that love the game and care enough to post) that can ultimately help the game.