Gettin one-shotted by Tzen'kethi torpedoes

jinno1993

Is this normal ? I got one-shotted 3 times in a row from this guys torpedoes.

My torpedoes deal 40k damage, AT BEST ... their deal 117k EACH (and fire salvos).
WTF are these damage, Cryptic ?

Is it just me, or these guys are heavily unbalanced ?

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questerius

The Tzenketti are actually pretty easy to deal with even without upgraded gear if you know their tricks.

Basics to keep in mind:
- Tetryon Damage (including their torpedo spread)
- The Tzenketti are weaker from the front
- Tzenketti cruisers heal when controlled (e.g. Gravity Well) so when you want them together, bring plenty of Dhakha.

Other than that, perhaps a tweak of two needed on your build.
Can you post a link from skillplanner? https://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/

protoneous

Cryptic does seem to do a good job at making the various enemies unique in their attacks.

As far as I can recall enemy damage was reduced at least twice in the past few years, but when they use the right combos at the wrong time things can still be challenging.

Getting set up to execute bridge officer abilities as easily and quickly as possible seems to be a significant boost.

If using cannons on a 4/3 ship consider using all cannons front vs. mixing in other weapons for more damage.

Having a CRF option on a CSV ship can help focus fire on single enemies while reducing threat.

Things like the Valdore Console (if using an Romulan ship) and Energy Refrequencer only heal when doing damage.

If not using consumables consider unlocking craftable Reactive Armor Catalysts. Having them bound to a handy mouse button for quick use can help.

spiritborn

There's another thing that people don't seem to recall that might be useful to remember here, Tzenkethi Frigates boost damage of ships near them the same way cruisers heal. This can easily lead to "how am I suppose to deal with that?!" levels of firepower from the Tzenkethi but actually the way to deal with it is pretty simple you destroy the weaker ships first and don't use control abilities (or any other abilities that might cause the Tzenkethi to bunch up).

The key with dealing with the Tzenkethi is to break up their fleets, while powerful at the front arc they're not really abnormally so with their buffs to back them up and they can't apply those buffs to themselves only others.

Sure you can also try overpower the buffs but that can get expensive really fast both in-game and IRL.

jinno1993

questerius wrote: »

The Tzenketti are actually pretty easy to deal with even without upgraded gear if you know their tricks.

Basics to keep in mind:
- Tetryon Damage (including their torpedo spread)
- The Tzenketti are weaker from the front
- Tzenketti cruisers heal when controlled (e.g. Gravity Well) so when you want them together, bring plenty of Dhakha.

Other than that, perhaps a tweak of two needed on your build.
Can you post a link from skillplanner? https://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/

Eh I know, but I don't really want to use Skill Planner right now. It takes HOURS to make an accurate chart of a Ship.
BTW I have a Fleet Khollhr Temporal Warbird, with end-game build (8 Epic Antiproton Weapons Mk XV), 5 Fleet Vulnerability Locators, Valoder/Morrigu 2pc set, crystalline console, 2pc (Shield/Engines) Nukara Set Epic Mk XV etc...

The build is A2B.
DOFFs: 3 Technicians, 1 Energy Weapons Doff (Crt Severity Stack), 1 Warp Core Engineer (chance +pow levels when Emergency Power) and 1 random Projectile Weapon Officer (I have crystalline torpedo launcher cause I like torpedoes)

BOFFs: 5 sup romulan operatives



This is just to say that I'm not a newbie that flies a mid-game ship, which would be normal (well, not actually normal but acceptable at least) to be blown away in a single salvo.

I have a good near end-game build and it is RIDICULOUS to be one-shotted in an advanced STO.


BTW, now I know what makes Tzenkethi that strong and I'll try to be careful around them (but they are still RIDICULOUS OP, other than being a pain in the a** with their immunities).

annemarie30

it's funny, people scream at me when I use the Intrepid of Doom™ but the Gravity well itself is enough to kill the ships. Torpedoes and the iso cannon just do the job faster the shields are tougher on the sides but if your build is that good, tearing them down should be no problem

questerius

When their buffs are giving problems then try using
https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Console_-_Universal_-_Polymorphic_Probe_Array (not a clue as to their current price on the exchange) and some of the temporal shenanigans to debuff them.

jinno1993

annemarie30 wrote: »

it's funny, people scream at me when I use the Intrepid of Doom™ but the Gravity well itself is enough to kill the ships. Torpedoes and the iso cannon just do the job faster the shields are tougher on the sides but if your build is that good, tearing them down should be no problem

It wouldn't, if they didn't have that pain-in-the-a** immunity that makes me do 200 damage instead on 10k per shot.
Really, i don't know what more to put on that ship ...

And yes, i noticed science ships became OP recently, but I don't know how to use them. Never used them, actually. I always used TAC ships, which get weaker and weaker with every update.


@questerius i can but the probe (phoenix pack - got 3 VR tokens). I'll try that.
But the point is that I don't even have the time to use anything as I get one-shotted as soon as I start firing.

EDIT: no wait, that was the voth decoy.
I'll look for the probe asap.



And honestly, I'm surprised non of you has had this problem yet.

protoneous

The Tzenkethi are one of the more robust enemies. There's some really good advice in this thread about about their behavior. I think this advice is key as if you modify your own approach in dealing with them life is made a whole lot easier.

It's nothing to do with science ships being OP and tac ships getting weaker with every patch (they're not).

It's not a problem but a challenge in how you deal with them.

questerius

jinno1993#9127 wrote: »

annemarie30 wrote: »

it's funny, people scream at me when I use the Intrepid of Doom™ but the Gravity well itself is enough to kill the ships. Torpedoes and the iso cannon just do the job faster the shields are tougher on the sides but if your build is that good, tearing them down should be no problem

It wouldn't, if they didn't have that pain-in-the-a** immunity that makes me do 200 damage instead on 10k per shot.
Really, i don't know what more to put on that ship ...

And yes, i noticed science ships became OP recently, but I don't know how to use them. Never used them, actually. I always used TAC ships, which get weaker and weaker with every update.


@questerius i can but the probe (phoenix pack - got 3 VR tokens). I'll try that.
But the point is that I don't even have the time to use anything as I get one-shotted as soon as I start firing.

EDIT: no wait, that was the voth decoy.
I'll look for the probe asap.



And honestly, I'm surprised non of you has had this problem yet.

It's probably due to a different play style. Personally i like to play Sci heavy.
While i have some characters with tac heavy builds i tend to find playing them less natural. I manage to bring out good results, but it just feels less natural.

In your case, the temporal warbird is a tad fragile and the nukara two piece is also not the most bulky.

That doesn't make either one bad, but its usually a build for which you hope there is a dedicated (proficient) tank in the TFO/battlezone to draw in aggro.

Try a few pieces obtained from https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Mission:_Melting_Pot which is this set: https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Incontrovertible_Defenses#Preeminent_Covariant_Shields

It's a mission reward which might help you adjust your tactics to the tzenketti.

protoneous

spiritborn wrote: »

There's another thing that people don't seem to recall that might be useful to remember here, Tzenkethi Frigates boost damage of ships near them the same way cruisers heal. This can easily lead to "how am I suppose to deal with that?!" levels of firepower from the Tzenkethi but actually the way to deal with it is pretty simple you destroy the weaker ships first and don't use control abilities (or any other abilities that might cause the Tzenkethi to bunch up).

The key with dealing with the Tzenkethi is to break up their fleets, while powerful at the front arc they're not really abnormally so with their buffs to back them up and they can't apply those buffs to themselves only others.

Sure you can also try overpower the buffs but that can get expensive really fast both in-game and IRL.

^ this is great advice ^

jinno1993

questerius wrote: »

It's probably due to a different play style. Personally i like to play Sci heavy.
While i have some characters with tac heavy builds i tend to find playing them less natural. I manage to bring out good results, but it just feels less natural.

In your case, the temporal warbird is a tad fragile and the nukara two piece is also not the most bulky.

That doesn't make either one bad, but its usually a build for which you hope there is a dedicated (proficient) tank in the TFO/battlezone to draw in aggro.

Try a few pieces obtained from https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Mission:_Melting_Pot which is this set: https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Incontrovertible_Defenses#Preeminent_Covariant_Shields

It's a mission reward which might help you adjust your tactics to the tzenketti.

If I had some good Tetryon weapons, I would for sure.
Sadly I only have AP for now.

protoneous wrote: »

The Tzenkethi are one of the more robust enemies. There's some really good advice in this thread about about their behavior. I think this advice is key as if you modify your own approach in dealing with them life is made a whole lot easier.

It's nothing to do with science ships being OP and tac ships getting weaker with every patch (they're not).

It's not a problem but a challenge in how you deal with them.

Well, then I don't know ... i see science ships obliterate enemies with that badlands-like tornado, while my cannons seems to shoot blanks (and they are all Mk XV CrtDx4 CrtH/CrtD Dual Cannons with 5 Mk XV fleet tac console boosting them !)

Honestly, it looks terribly unfair ...

protoneous

jinno1993#9127 wrote: »

protoneous wrote: »

The Tzenkethi are one of the more robust enemies. There's some really good advice in this thread about about their behavior. I think this advice is key as if you modify your own approach in dealing with them life is made a whole lot easier.

It's nothing to do with science ships being OP and tac ships getting weaker with every patch (they're not).

It's not a problem but a challenge in how you deal with them.

Well, then I don't know ... i see science ships obliterate enemies with that badlands-like tornado, while my cannons seems to shoot blanks (and they are all Mk XV CrtDx4 CrtH/CrtD Dual Cannons with 5 Mk XV fleet tac console boosting them !)

Honestly, it looks terribly unfair ...

It may look unfair but it's not. Practice, execution, and adapting to the enemy's behavior are all elements to success.

No single console is going to guarantee a win. Ditto for traits, ships, and Lobi items. The plasma storm module you saw in action is only a small part of a science ship's overall exotic and torpedo damage.

Sometimes all it takes is changing one small thing. Perhaps instead of opening up with Cannon Scatter Volley on a group of Tzenkethi and trying to overpower their self reinforcing and buffing behavior perhaps try Cannon Rapid Fire instead and taking out the frigates and cruisers individually?

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zedbrightlander1

Ever since I maxed out on the Endeavors, and can create for myself, any Purple weapons, armor, shields, etc that I want for new Captains, I cannot remember the last time I faced Instant Death.

Well, one time when I noticed after two quick losses in a row that all of my Space Traits had been cleared. Very annoying.

there are plenty of great builds out there. And I see plenty of great helper in this thread.

Happy gaming.

jinno1993

protoneous wrote: »

It may look unfair but it's not. Practice, execution, and adapting to the enemy's behavior are all elements to success.

No single console is going to guarantee a win. Ditto for traits, ships, and Lobi items. The plasma storm module you saw in action is only a small part of a science ship's overall exotic and torpedo damage.

Sometimes all it takes is changing one small thing. Perhaps instead of opening up with Cannon Scatter Volley on a group of Tzenkethi and trying to overpower their self reinforcing and buffing behavior perhaps try Cannon Rapid Fire instead and taking out the frigates and cruisers individually?

Honestly, I don't think it would work: they used to kill me in 5 secs (decloak, start firing, they fire, they kill me).
Even using CRF (which I really like more than CSV) I can kill 1 frigate before they start firing at me. And I don't think that 1 frigate would make that difference.

I should probably attack them from the broadside: I would deal less damage, but perhaps I could fire 2 volleys (and kill all the frigates) before the battleships can fire at me. I tried this once and it worked.

I also swapped Radiant Detonation Matrix for the Trait that gives +10% shield resistance, and it looks better.


BTW ... I'm not sure I understand how numbers work with resistances:
+30 All Damage Resistance (Hull) how much damage negates ?
+5 Armor Penetration is good ? How much ?

westmetals wrote: »

Tractor Beam Repulsors is a good one to use against Tzenkethi as well as it can force them apart. Also Viral Impulse Burst (if you have Intel skills). Because those reinforcement/healing skills that the smaller Tzenkethi ships have, are area-effects, so if you push their ships out of range of each other, they lose the benefits.

As Protoneous mentioned, the plasma storm console is just one element (and not even one that all science players use). There's a lot that goes into a hardcore science build to beef up things like that or Gravity Well. (If the aforementioned Intrepid of Doom is anything like my Tachikaze... it probably has six or seven science consoles, a couple science-themed set bonuses, a deflector heavily modified toward science stats.... oh and science ships get a second deflector.... etc.)

As I mentioned above, you might need to work on increasing your defenses. It might be necessary to slip in some damage resistance traits, or even to swap out that Nukara set for one with defensive bonuses rather than offensive. (I'm not recommending the Preeminent here... but rather something like the "Midnight" set.)

Looks like a nice strategy, I'll try.

BTW, how did you put 7 Sci Consoles ?
I thought the maximum was 6 ... (5 for T6 / T6-Fleet + 1 for Exp. Upgrade)



PS: midnight set sucks ... a lot.
I have it on my second ton (which I use just for dil refining) and I get killed by BORG SPHERES in Disconnected ... NORMAL (not even advanced).


Now, I know that ton is heavily under-geared, I never used it seriously: it has Mk XII blue weapons + Quantum Phase Set, but ... getting killed by spheres ... it's humiliating.

this is just for saying that Sol Defense Set ... no thanks.

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jinno1993

Ah ok, cool ...
so a +30 Damage Resistance is roughly a +10/15% for me ... it's not bad, but since I have low hull anyway, I don't feel it would make that difference.

I mean, it's not bad, but maybe it would be better to increase firepower, wouldn't it ?

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protoneous

One of the easiest ways to make a lighter ship feel more sturdy is to use two pieces of the Discovery reputation space set. I use the shield and core. The difference in hull regeneration is amazing and can make lighter ships feel far more sturdy. For me this set outperforms storyline reward space sets.

The space trait Energy Refrequencer can help with your hull while your Valdore console helps your shields (both while dealing damage).

Using the intel spec as primary with strategist secondary works good for me.

I'd keep your assimilated module for the added CrtH and CrtD... it's that good even by itself. Your crafted EPS console could be replaced with the Reinforced Armaments console (story reward) for it's increased hull regeneration and hull capacity stats along with a boost to EPS.

You could try a space genetic resequencer such as Repair Crews or Context is for Kings.

Their may be some other suggestions already made in the Fleet Ar'kif build thread.

Another option would be to try something heavier than a singularity based warbird such as a Gagarin Miracle Worker Battlecruiser. It is a beast with cannons. Or you could give your Morrigu a try and see if the extra hull helps.

My own favorite fast moving cannon ship is the Temer Alliance Raider that my 2255 Klingon recruit character uses. I'd say if you like playing with lighter ships and cannons it's well worth continuing to practice and keep trying different things until you find a balance that works for you.

A build with all forward facing cannons can do a lot of damage and the game can be quite exciting in a fast moving and maneuverable ship.

jinno1993

protoneous wrote: »

One of the easiest ways to make a lighter ship feel more sturdy is to use two pieces of the Discovery reputation space set. I use the shield and core. The difference in hull regeneration is amazing and can make lighter ships feel far more sturdy. For me this set outperforms storyline reward space sets.

The space trait Energy Refrequencer can help with your hull while your Valdore console helps your shields (both while dealing damage).

Using the intel spec as primary with strategist secondary works good for me.

I'd keep your assimilated module for the added CrtH and CrtD... it's that good even by itself. Your crafted EPS console could be replaced with the Reinforced Armaments console (story reward) for it's increased hull regeneration and hull capacity stats along with a boost to EPS.

You could try a space genetic resequencer such as Repair Crews or Context is for Kings.

Their may be some other suggestions already made in the Fleet Ar'kif build thread.

Another option would be to try something heavier than a singularity based warbird such as a Gagarin Miracle Worker Battlecruiser. It is a beast with cannons. Or you could give your Morrigu a try and see if the extra hull helps.

My own favorite fast moving cannon ship is the Temer Alliance Raider that my 2255 Klingon recruit character uses. I'd say if you like playing with lighter ships and cannons it's well worth continuing to practice and keep trying different things until you find a balance that works for you.

A build with all forward facing cannons can do a lot of damage and the game can be quite exciting in a fast moving and maneuverable ship.

Eh, I wouldn't like non-rom ships for my rom ton. Also, the battle cloak is nice (I used it often in PVPs, time ago).
BTW, as soon as I can get the Experimental Ship Token (farming EC atm) I'd look for alternative weapons type (I was looking at disruptors - the nausican torpedo looks nice).

BTW I was looking at Energy Refrequencer, but I was unsure so I'm glad you mentioned it.
I'll give it a try.

As for discovery set, I don't really know: I can swap Nukara Engines/Shield, but I'd loose +10% weapon damage for a 120% Hull Regeneration. Doesn't look a good change. Also, I spent a lot to have the Shield at Mk XV Epic T_T

I could swap the Core and the Deflector, but i'd loose a lot of firepower and power levels.

westmetals wrote: »

Well, considering as you're playing Romulan (I would presume with all SRO BOFFs?), with typematched weapons upgraded and re-engineered to CrtDx4 CrtH/CrtD (not exactly the mods I would have chosen but probably second-best... CrtD/Dm might be better) and a solid row of Locators.... I think you're probably pretty much there already as far as increasing firepower.

And yet here we are.

My thought was the low hull + low resistance issue. As you said, getting one-shotted by torpedoes. If you can build up your hull and resistance enough that the torpedoes don't one-shot you, then you can use heals, firepower, etc. to take care of the rest.

"Bulkhead Technician" trait and Command spec (both give +Hull) might also help.

My Weapons ATM are CrtDx3 Pen CrtH/CrtD, but I'm not really sure about the Pen mod.
And yes, I have 5 Sup Rom Operatives and Mk XV Locators typematched.

BTW, I feel I can do better.
I saw Scimitars obliterating things (I saw them dealing x2 x3 of my damage) and I don't know how they do that.

Am I doing something wrong ?
I think that if I had that firepower, I wouldn't had this problem.

I don't know, maybe they have some ultra expensive doffs that doubles their firepower ... (my doffs are 3x VR Technicians for A2B, 1x VR Warp Core Engineer for Power Levels on EPtW, 1x VR Energy Weapon Officer for Crt Severity Stack ... I have 1 empty slot which I filled with 1 Projectile Weapon Officer, but I'm really looking for something better)

jinno1993

Ah, I managed to use Skill Planner.
This is my build atm: https://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/0f0d5c0bab29f40b56e2d3a51ac7feda

Working to get Exp. Ship Upgrade Token, what should I focus next ?
Do consider I'm a "free" player. I spend money sometimes, but usually I don't.

protoneous

jinno1993#9127 wrote: »

BTW, I feel I can do better.

I saw Scimitars obliterating things (I saw them dealing x2 x3 of my damage) and I don't know how they do that.

Am I doing something wrong ?

I think that if I had that firepower, I wouldn't had this problem.

I don't know, maybe they have some ultra expensive doffs that doubles their firepower

I think if you continue to practice and explore different ways of doing things you'll find things keep getting better and you will do better.

You're not doing anything wrong.

For me the hardest part was letting go of old habits.

Keep at it

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jinno1993

westmetals wrote: »

Might be possible to swap in a second A2B for RSP, then you don't need Photonic Officer. Might be something more useful that can go there.

Your skill planner is also missing (all of) the traits.

Well, my original build was with GW to keep enemies grouped and them bomb them with CSV, TS, Radiant Detonation Matrix, Rom Plasma Consoles (buff Control and Radiation Damage) and Kemocite-Laced Weapons (that's why I have Dual Cannons and not Dual Heavy ATM).

The idea was to deal a lot of damage with weapons and AoE effects of RDM and KLW (since they were grouped by GW).
But probably this is not something that can be done right in a TAC ship.

BTW, what can I swap in for PO2 ?

jinno1993

I cannot Re-Engineer Nukara Engines (Epic). The "Re-Engineer" button doesn't show up.
Is this normal ?

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