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Lockbox scam
payback99
Member Posts: 40 Arc User
How can you seriously think that a drop rate so low that a person can spend well over 100 keys and not get a tier 6 ship is moral/reasonable?
The lockbox ships are only unlocked on the individual who opens them. Why on earth did you nerf the droprate to so low that a single unlock ship can cost more than an bundle of 9 ships of 3 for each faction?
I hadn't played in a couple years and so just bought this mudds market bundle and took 100 keys. Boy was I stupid as I used them as well as a bunch of old keys and tried getting an upgrade to my tier 5u voth bastion to no avail and the "rewards" from the pack include a ton of kits that end up selling for 10k credits. You used to beable to make money with lockboxes but now the infinity pack is so terrible that I won't even be able to make 1/12th the cost of a tier 6 lockbox ship on the exchange. If there isn't some type of bug I don't see how you people can be ok with draining the life savings out of your players thinking you are a reputable company.
The lockbox ships are only unlocked on the individual who opens them. Why on earth did you nerf the droprate to so low that a single unlock ship can cost more than an bundle of 9 ships of 3 for each faction?
I hadn't played in a couple years and so just bought this mudds market bundle and took 100 keys. Boy was I stupid as I used them as well as a bunch of old keys and tried getting an upgrade to my tier 5u voth bastion to no avail and the "rewards" from the pack include a ton of kits that end up selling for 10k credits. You used to beable to make money with lockboxes but now the infinity pack is so terrible that I won't even be able to make 1/12th the cost of a tier 6 lockbox ship on the exchange. If there isn't some type of bug I don't see how you people can be ok with draining the life savings out of your players thinking you are a reputable company.
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If you had cared enough to ask, I would have told you that instead of using the keys to open boxes you should SELL them on the exchange for EC, then take that EC and buy the ship you wanted off the exchange. That method gives you a 100% chance to get the ship you want with no actual gambling involved.
While I certainly don't love lockboxes, there is no excuse for simply not caring enough to even bother to ask people how something works before spending your money. That is 100% your mistake and no one else is to blame for that.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I have used the lockboxes before a few years ago as I said in my post. I assumed that while kinda junky they still were decent ways of making credits. And why does someone need to check with the forums to see if something the game creators made is a scam? I could see if it was a player run lotto or something but this is from the developers themselves.
Do you go to every game forum and ask if every game mechanic in the game is a scam?
And none of that changes the fact that people need to know about how disgustingly low the lockbox rate is and if enough people complain they may fix them.
It's not a "scam", it's gambling. So you can CHOOSE to gamble to try(and probably not) get a ship or you can use a 100% guaranteed method (described in my previous post).
Also, some people open boxes to get lobi. That's not gambling (IMO) because lobi is guaranteed in every box, and therefore that is also not a 'scam'.
Should you have to come to the forums to ask about every game mechanic? No. Should you do it before spending a LARGE amount of money? If you are smart, yes.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Anytime I am spending a significant amount of money.. yes, I research what I am buying as any informed consumer should.
Do you just throw money at anything that sounds good on the initial description? If so, then lesson learned.
You gambled, you lost.. get over it. Learn your lesson and don't repeat it.
AS I have said before I used to get them all the time. I did not realize the rate had been knocked so low. Why on earth should you assume that a developer would nerf something so far into the ground so that you have almost no chance of "winning".
Like @thegrandnagus1 said, if you'd come here and asked first, we'd have explained how to 100% guaranteed get a lock box ship, for the cost of ~120 keys.
Coming here to rant after the fact is too late.
It's an expensive lesson but hopefully you've learned it. Only gamble for fun, only if you understand that you are taking your money and most likely lighting it on fire to watch it burn.
Only open lock boxes if you understand that even opening 250 of them does not guarantee a ship. With really bad luck you could open 1,000 lock boxes and not get a ship. On average opening 250 gets someone ship, but that's an average. Some people get a ship from opening 1, some take 1,000+.
Open them for the fun of hoping you'll get a ship, for the lobi, and for the other things like traits, weapons, and those super-useful R&D mini-packs with awesome common mats.
Why are you people defending disgusting practices like this? Saying tough luck and suck it up isn't going to get them to change anything. Just look at how terrible their customer service is compared to their other two games. They don't care because you all just put up with it this is the only game I've ever played where I have never had a gm be able to help me even champions online has a thousand times better customer service and lockbox rates. And why on earth should a single unlock ship cost more than an entire account unlock of 9 ships?
I used to see lockbox ship announcements all the time. I think I've only seen two since I've started playing again. Clearly either the game is nearly dead or the rates have changed.
No one is defending the lockboxes. You are missing the actual point: any time you are going to spend a LARGE(key word) amount of money you should care enough to do your homework on the thing you are buying and how it works. If you don't care enough to do that I simply don't have any sympathy for your complaints afterward.
So no, I'm not defending lockboxes. I'm defending what should have been common sense.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Exactly. The lock box system has been this way since 2012. Ranting is not going to change it.
You should have done your homework on how to work with the system, or not spent your money at all.
Infinity Lock boxes are better than the old flavor-specific lock boxes. You get your choice of ship, trait, weapon pack, kit module type, etc. instead of just Tholian, Tal Shiar, etc.
Lock boxes have always been more of a gamble than selling the keys and buying the specific thing that you want. That hasn't changed. The "decent way of making credits" if you don't want lobi is to sell the keys not open the boxes. That is true now and was true when you were playing before.
You can make over 400 million selling the keys.
Unless there's evidence somewhere Cryptic is picking & choosing the winners & losers then I'd be inclined to label it a scam & fraud.
It is just abyssal odds of winning the primary prize(s).
That's why I wouldn't be against online gambling being in mmos, like STO, as it is now if the official odds were to be published & regulated to make sure accurate & enforced.
I'm not sure whom: Cryptic, PWE, or CBS dictate the gambling odds but as previously stated numerous times a sure way is to not gamble & buy off the Exchange instead unless one is a lobi collector.
Technically it isn't a scam because they don't post the odds nor do they say it isn't rigged so even if it was it's technically not a scam. Just like it "technically" wasn't a scam when they kept pushing out new tier 5 ships when they had already been working on creating tier 6 ships and hadn't announced it yet gobbling up all that easy money knowing people would have to upgrade them relatively soon.
Even predatory mobile games will usually have bad luck protection for their loot boxes. It's disgusting that STO is so willing to exploit people like this.
But even if you do buy off the exchange, someone is still being exploited. I wouldn't feel right selling keys knowing someone spent a billion credits to get 5 tier 5 ship vouchers and 200 kit frames worth 10k credits when all they were hoping for was to get a tier 6 ship.
And Honestly Idk why they put tier 5 ships in the infinity pack when they are completely worthless and sell for like a million credits. Most if not all don't even have the consoles on them anymore I dont think.
Multiple entries for each padding item as well, as wonderfully highlighted by the umpteen doff packs or kits in the infinity that should be consolidated into a choice box the way weapons have been.
Not to forget that one such pad is considered worthy of being a gamblebox itself. The R&D pack which has been utterly devalued by the quantity of free R&D mats that have flooded the game coupled with a long forgotten crafting system.
So the entire game does depend on gambling. That is a bad thing, I think and it's something those who are giving such advise should recognise.
Edit: just read the post above mine. For clarity: this is not really a reply to that post, but meant as a general comment. The similarity in the first sentence is just a coincidence.
No new ones have been added, but ships have been removed.
Why not re-add the T5 ships that were in there, and add a C-store unlock that allows players to upgrade them to a T6 ship.
It already seems that they want to relocate most lockbox stuff to the C-store. So it fits with the strategy they're following.
If such an upgrade token would cost like 3000 Zen, players could get a T6 lockbox ship for the price of a regular C-store ship - but only if they also have a T5 boxed one. That would increase the value of those boxes and add another item and possible source of revenue for Cryptic to the C-store. Since the ship would be limited to one character, I think it is reasonable.
Keeping them at T5 with no way to upgrade them and making the boxes containt an ever decreasing selection (most ships in there aren't even unique anymore since they're just mirror versions of regular faction ships with a different paint job) is just silly and pointless.
They better start to think of a plan B.) then if Mudd ain't it.
Ok, but to get a specific item, you'll still need to gamble.
At least, I've never gotten that specific trait or Boff manual that I wanted when opening the first, second, tenth or even twentieth box. (Not to mention that things like Boff manuals in turn also require more gambling and hoping that you'll get the right skill at the right level.)
I assume they are thinking of such a plan. Mudd may actually be it.
These awful practices should have ended long ago. People decide to play a game, they may not always be aware that they've entered a casino disguised as a game. Abusing that unawareness is wrong imo.
That, and the fact that they didn't think of this themselves but waited until legislation is finally (about to be?) passed, means that I won't shed a tear if they are not prepared and suffer as a result.
Would be... what did people call it? A wise lesson? For them.
I think STO is on the rather save side. They have a lot of eggs and baskets. Sure, the easy income would be gone but considering the predatory nature I'll shed no tears. I mean sure I did some in the past for one ship or another... *ponders*... Ok, one actually. The other two I got from the exchange... digressing. STO should be save. They have a lot of options to branch out and sell outside gambling. The game, interests, play style options are diverse and varied enough. They might dust off some of the old neglected practices like better QA ( :P ) or took a close look at previously waved off as less profitable (which, honestly, is probably everything compared to selling meth at a schoolyard unregulated gambling); but the game is strong enough.
DCUO is f***ed though :P (not Cryptics problem; but probably good for CO).
People call it an RNG. But really, it's an RCG, a Random Chance Generator.
With that, if you think that you have the advantage of winning when you walk into a casino. Well, then I have some ocean front property in Oklahoma I need to sell. The odds are always stacked in the favor of the house.
For example, go to one of the dabo tables in the game. Then go to the wiki and get 1 of the 15 number sets that can hit the jackpot. Before the change, that's the triple 100K payout, with winning, it's 400K. I've been hitting the dabo table on and off since I started playing in 2012. I've never seen the jackpot one time.
And because you always get something out of them, i.e. you always win something, they can't be defined by law as gambling. Gambling is win/lose, not you win something every time. State Fair games can be considered gambling, because you either win or lose. You don't get consolation prizes just for playing.
I wasn't talking so much about the legal meaning. It is gambling if one looks at the psychological manipulation and its effects.
It may indeed that they will be exempt from most new regulation. Loot boxes in general will be subject to more stringent regulation though, if I'm not mistaken. And STO definitely has loot boxes.
New Legislation on it won't make it out of the box. Why? Simple, Casinos and the Lottery are both billions of dollars per year profit industries. To much tax revenue to lose there.
As far as the loot boxes go. Ehh.. they could disappear and I wouldn't miss them. Since, as I said I've been playing since 2012, and I think I've may have opened 20 total. Maybe a few more than that, perhaps 30.
Personally, I'd like to see them do away with loot boxes, or at least doll back on them, and switch over to C-store ships being character unlocks, instead of account. Granted at a reduced price, say half, 1500 zen. Then make the boxes they come in like lockbox/lobi ship, sellable on the exchange, and zip, watch the profit margins go up. But, this idea here will never come about, since it would have been best to do this change back when the game went F2P.
That said, any reasonable person should be able to agree on these 2 points:
1: if you are opening boxes to get a SHIP, then it's essentially gambling. Again, I'm not talking about a specific legal definition. I'm talking about the basic CONCEPT of spending money trying to get a SPECIFIC thing you want and probably not getting it.
2: if you are opening boxes to get LOBI, then it's not gambling. Why? Because you literally get lobi in ever box. It's guaranteed.
So yes, some of the ships on the exchange were actually not the product of gambling at all. How? This is the process:
A: person opens boxes to get LOBI
B: person gets 'lucky' and wins a ship.
C: person says to themselves 'you know, I think I would rather have the EC to buy other things I want (may even another ship)
D; person sells ship on the exchange
E: different person buys ship
See, no one was actually gambling in that scenario. However I disagree that they game could survive without gambling. While the scenario I described above is true, it's a minority not the majority. As we all know from threads like this one there are tons of people who are opening the boxes for the ships because they don't know any better (or whatever their reasons may be). Those are the people who really fund this game, not the people opening the boxes for lobi.
Having said that, let me 'correct' something I said in my last paragraph: yes the game could "survive" without gambling. But what does "survive" mean? Well, it could still exist and keep the servers running and pay a small number of devs based on normal ship sales. But it probably could not afford to keep up the same amount of content and celeb VO we have now. So could it "exist"? Yes. Would it be significantly less developed? Yes.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008