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Two Consoles both with boost to shields (or other rating)
william8004
Member Posts: 6 Arc User
in The Shipyard
If I have two consoles boosting shields does it add the two ratings together or just ignore the lesser of the two? ie. boost flight turn rate +35% and another one at 14%. Thanks
Will
Will
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I think Turn Rate has no diminishing returns, though. I think capacity bonuses have no diminishing returns.
However, items usually apply their bonus to the base value the item has, and sometimes the boosts items get from being higher mark or higher rarity are also part of the bonus you already have, so an item that grants you +20 % something might not add 20 % to your current total value of that something, but 20 % to whatever the base value of that something is.
You should be able to see what an item actually gives in your ship or character statistics, if you are on the appropriate map (if you look for ground statistics, be on a ground map, if you look for starship statistics, be in a space map - Sector Space does not count!)
However, using some fake numbers for sake of argument, your resistance for one +25 console might be 24%, and two might be 41%, three might be 50%, and all 4 in this example might be 55%, and that looks like each armor console is doing less and less for you. Well that +100 console would also give you 55% outright, the same as 4 +25 consoles.
Calling it diminshing returns implies that you are better off using one +100 console vs 4 +25, and while in fact you probably would be, that is because you'd have 3 other console slots to play with, not because it gives you more armor.
If something does not stack, it implicitly tells you in the description/info.
Armour DOES have diminishing returns as does any other console that boost a skill by +pts, these are different from Consoles that give a percentage boost which are not diminishing returns. You directly contradicted yourself with your own explanation in your second paragraph.
Nothing I wrote is contradictory. I am not sure what you don't understand though so I don't know how to explain it to help you understand.
I'll say that if armor had diminishing returns, then the 4 +25 armor consoles in my example might add up to +70 armor when altogether, versus the single +100 console which is still +100. This is not the case, however. +100 armor is always +100 armor, regardless of the type of sources or number of sources.
I explained it to you exactly how it actually works. The diminishing returns on consoles is well known to veteran players. The more points you put into a skill, especially via the way of 'point boost' consoles the less effect they have. Putting 4 +25 pt boost to Amour Rating does not translate into the same percentage increase. You'll still get the +100 points added to your Armour Rating, but the percentage increase will be far less, especially if you have spec'd maximum skill points into the same skill.
Yes, that's correct and exactly what I said. If you have +100 armor, you get some % resistance. It doesn't matter where that +armor comes from, it all adds up to +100 and gets you the same resistance whether its all from consoles or skills or set bonus or some mix. Your armor rating goes through a formula to get your actual % resistance value, and that formula doesn't care how many armor consoles you equip or where your armor rating comes from, it just looks at the total and gives you the appropriate %.
Calling that diminishing returns, however, is completely wrong. Diminishing returns is when the first console may be +25, then the second gives +13, then the third gives +7, despite all being +25 consoles. In the case of diminishing returns, equipping 1+100 console is always better and gives you more armor than 4 +25 consoles.
Sorry, but you have it wrong. The diminishing returns rule, as I said, is in the percentage boost given by boosting the points allocated to a particular skill which reduces in magnitude the more points are put into a skill. A console that gives a direct percentage boost does not have diminishing returns.
Again, that is not what diminishing returns actually means. It isn't that what you're describing is wrong, it is that calling it diminishing returns is literally incorrect. It does not work that way because it is completely driven by a formula based on increasing your effective HP at a fixed rate.
That's important because if we have 2 people, say 1 who has fully invested in the armor skills, and someone who has not, they are going to see different results in armor increases from equipping consoles. You aren't disputing that either, but the issue is that it has nothing to do with how many consoles or sources of that particular rating you have, it is strictly based on the total rating you have.
Whether you have 100 armor from skill or 100 from console, you get the same resistance %. Adding another console gives you again identical resistance % in both scenarios. No, it does not give you the same resistance % as adding the first console or increasing skill by the same amount.
As this was explained by the devs, the way the formula works is to give you an effective increase in HP. If one console lets you take 1 extra hit from a torpedo, then adding another console, while it doesn't give you the same resistance % increase, it lets you take another extra hit from a torpedo by increasing your effective HP by the same amount, and a third console would again increase your effective HP by an identical amount. If it were diminishing returns, that would not be the case.
Consider 25% resistance vs 50% resistance. If you have 100k HP, your effective HP in each case is HP/(1-R%) which gives us 133k and 200k. Despite having twice the resistance at 50%, you have more than double the increase in effective HP from the 25% value, and going again to 75% resistance gives us an effective HP of 500k, which is 4 times the increase in effective HP from 50% and 12 times that of 25% resistance.
This is why armor rating does not translate to linear increases in terms of resistance %, but it is not diminishing returns. You should be getting nearly identical increases in effective HP from each console if they add the same armor.
because you might get the same value of armor points, but the output is decreased.
so if you have 0 resistance and add 1 console you get +25 points => ~24.5% resistance or somethign like that.
if you have like 1000 points resistance already, you get +25 points, but most likely nothing in effective resistance.
thats how the resistance work and how a diminishing return in mmo works.
another thing working the same way is fire cycle haste
ingame: @Felisean
It is true that 2 armor consoles of value X would do the same as 1 armor console of value 2x. However, we still speak of diminishing returns because at some point, adding more armor to your ship just just doesn't give as much benefit. Whether you do it because you have 2 weak consoles or 1 strong console is not mportant.
A while ago, I actually went through the math and calculated the effective benefits from armor at various values.
Armor resistance in the stat window is described as the percentage of damage you take less. However, the value listed on an armor item is not a resistance value, but just an "armor rating", that when applied into a complex formula from Cryptic, gives you an effective resistance value. The formula is complex because it achieves two goals: One, it translates the rating into a damage reduction that does diminish the value, and second, it caps the value at 75 %, e.g. the diminishing returns scale toward 75 %, not 100 % damage reduction.
This overall makes some sense if you think that damage reduction has a non-linear effect on your survivability. If you had 50 % damage reduction, you could take twice as much damage, but with 75 % damage reduction, you can take 4 times as much damage, and with 100 % damage reduction you'd be invulnerable. Obviously something needs to be in place that you can never get in such excessive regions. (This also kinda shows why it's okay that damage buffs do not have such a diminishing return system 100 % bonus damage means you kill things twice as fast, not that you kill it instantly. 100 % bonus damage is still no damage against 100 % damage reduction.)
Still I wondered if the armor rating had a better representative description - how much "longer" do you survive compared to the unarmored value, or how many virtual extra hit points does the rating represent?
It happens to be that in the lower value, 1 point of rating is approximately 1 % of bonus hit points. However, even here you will find diminishing returns, once your armor rating starts higher, an extra point will represent significantly less than 1 % bonus hit points.
I calculated this and came up with a few representative values: An rating of 25 is roughly 24.8 % bonus hit points, a rating of 50 about 48.8 %, a value of 100 about 92.3 %, a rating of 200 is about 158.9 %
So at low rating (<100) you can ballpark with with +1 armor rating = +1 % hit points, but it is getting less and less.
for +% hp you will ALWAYS get the exact same increase for your hitpoints.
if you have 100 base hp and you add hullcap to increase it by 1%, you will get +1 hp.
if you have 100 base hp + 100%=>+100 hp from another increase and add the +1% from the first example, you will again get exactly +1 hp.
=> there is no diminishing return. same count for damage and most of the other things in the game.
the only things with a diminishing return are
-resistances,
-firecycle haste and
-cd reductions (hope i didnt missed one ^^)
ingame: @Felisean
Yes it isn't a strict 1:1 ratio all the way through for good reason: healing/hull regen. If you take 10000 damage in some time period, and reduce it by 25% its 7500. At 50% its 5000. Now if in that time period you can get 5000 points of healing, you're effectively invulnerable at 50%. Ultimately it makes sense for even armor points to have a curve.
Still I won't call it diminishing returns, because it is still quite powerful to stack up armor because of effective HP and healing. It is an opportunity cost thing, where at some point you really want to consider diversifying your strategy, but it still works to improve your survivability. The Disco Rep set really lets you abuse hull regen if you can push your hull HP high, and that works far better the more resistance you also have.