Constitutional Monarchies of Earth

marty123

What happened to the constitutional monarchs of Earth after the United Earth was formed. Apparently the King/Queen of the United Kingdom still exists in at least the 2250s but in what way?

brian334

I don't think that's been touched on by any Trek writers. I would imagine the Eugenics War took care of the Indian/Southeast Asian monarchs, though there is still hope for Japan's Emperor. That leaves a hodge-podge of European nobles and some African tribes, with potentially a Middle Eastern potentate in the mix.

xungnguyen

Good question. In my 'verse, the constitutional monarchies left Earth for Mars and settled in an underground colony to research Mana infused tech to prepare for declaring independence from the UFP (with a side of negotiations) in 2410. They now call themselves the Sol Empire.

artan42

I would have hoped we'd grown up and become a Republic like all other sensible countries and jettisoned hereditary privilege well before WWIII/EW but as that's due to start in 2026 we don't really have time to undergo a proper reformation.​​

starswordc

marty123#3757 wrote: »

What happened to the constitutional monarchs of Earth after the United Earth was formed. Apparently the King/Queen of the United Kingdom still exists in at least the 2250s but in what way?

I think it's possible some are still around, but have as little power in Star Trek's future as they do now.

United Earth appears to be mostly a more powerful successor to the United Nations (or New United Nations, depending on which version of the chronology you read), so I think it's entirely possible that whatever nation-states lasted through the Post-Atomic Horror still exist as subdivisions of UE. They'd in practice be something akin to American counties (or parishes in the case of Louisiana), i.e. a mildly self-governing subdivision of Federation member states.

For the UK specifically, the Reeves-Stevenses novel Federation says that the royal family fled Britain for the United States when the Optimum Movement took over. I didn't know that the canon had said they came back, but that would imply that at least in Federation's chronology they survived WWIII and were able to resume the throne once Optimum was overthrown.

(As far as fanfic, I've written in my own continuity that Britain and Jordan still have royal families, but Saudi Arabia collapsed from a combination of the abandonment of fossil fuels and Optimum dropping an asteroid in the outskirts of Mecca, which is now ruled by Jordan. On the flipside, Germany restored its monarchy, which was something I let Worffan101 stick in after he'd played way too much Hearts of Iron IV. )

starkaos

Star Trek still has to go through World War III before Cochrane launches the USS Phoenix. According to First Contact:

DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.

So it is likely that most or all Constitutional Monarchies were destroyed in World War III.

marty123

> @starkaos said:
> Star Trek still has to go through World War III before Cochrane launches the USS Phoenix. According to First Contact:
>
> DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
> RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.
>
> So it is likely that most or all Constitutional Monarchies were destroyed in World War III.

At least the British monarchy has been confirmed to exist after WWIII

artan42

marty123#3757 wrote: »

> @starkaos said:
> Star Trek still has to go through World War III before Cochrane launches the USS Phoenix. According to First Contact:
>
> DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
> RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.
>
> So it is likely that most or all Constitutional Monarchies were destroyed in World War III.

At least the British monarchy has been confirmed to exist after WWIII

Shame.

starkaos

marty123#3757 wrote: »

> starkaos said:
> Star Trek still has to go through World War III before Cochrane launches the USS Phoenix. According to First Contact:
>
> DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
> RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.
>
> So it is likely that most or all Constitutional Monarchies were destroyed in World War III.

At least the British monarchy has been confirmed to exist after WWIII

Is there any evidence of that? Novels don't count especially one that dealt with Cochrane's life and was retconned when First Contact came out a couple of years later. Federation came out in 1994 while First Contact came out in 1996.

marty123

starkaos wrote: »

marty123#3757 wrote: »

> starkaos said:
> Star Trek still has to go through World War III before Cochrane launches the USS Phoenix. According to First Contact:
>
> DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
> RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.
>
> So it is likely that most or all Constitutional Monarchies were destroyed in World War III.

At least the British monarchy has been confirmed to exist after WWIII

Is there any evidence of that? Novels don't count especially one that dealt with Cochrane's life and was retconned when First Contact came out a couple of years later. Federation came out in 1994 while First Contact came out in 1996.

its mentioned in Enterprise, so yes it counts

starkaos

It is only mentioned that Malcolm Reed's father and grandfather were part of the Royal Navy. There is no mention of the British Monarchy in Enterprise. So it is only implied that the British Monarchy still exists since it is possible to have a Royal Navy without Royalty to keep the military traditions alive. After all, it is far more prestigious to be part of the Royal Navy than it is to be part of the England Navy.

ryan218

starkaos wrote: »

It is only mentioned that Malcolm Reed's father and grandfather were part of the Royal Navy. There is no mention of the British Monarchy in Enterprise. So it is only implied that the British Monarchy still exists since it is possible to have a Royal Navy without Royalty to keep the military traditions alive. After all, it is far more prestigious to be part of the Royal Navy than it is to be part of the England Navy.

*British Navy. England and Britain are not the same thing. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is an island which is home to the three nations of England, Scotland and Wales* which make up Great Britain.

*Wales is, officially, a Principality rather than a full nation. And before anyone gets me on England, Scotland and Wales not being 'nations', the three countries (plus Northern Ireland/Eire, depending on context) are referred to as the 'Home Nations'. A nation doesn't necessarily have to be sovereign to be a nation.

And personally, I think British Navy sounds pretty catchy. Most certainly if the monarchy were abolished in the UK it would have to be over something major: major enough to make it political problematic to maintain two branches of the Armed Forces as 'Royal'.

brian334

Figureheads can be quite useful, especially to representative democracies, which are notoriously bad at acting in a unified manner during a crisis. There is no reason to have the Royals 'go away' when they can be put to use by the government as spokespeople and as a humanizing face of the government.

Many royal families around the world may be useful to help maintain an ideal of the culture and to remain a touchstone to the history of the nation and people. Symbolic representation is very important to humans.

They do not have to remain politically powerful. They do not have to remain rich. They only serve to remind the people of their past.

artan42

ryan218 wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

It is only mentioned that Malcolm Reed's father and grandfather were part of the Royal Navy. There is no mention of the British Monarchy in Enterprise. So it is only implied that the British Monarchy still exists since it is possible to have a Royal Navy without Royalty to keep the military traditions alive. After all, it is far more prestigious to be part of the Royal Navy than it is to be part of the England Navy.

*British Navy. England and Britain are not the same thing. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is an island which is home to the three nations of England, Scotland and Wales* which make up Great Britain.

*Wales is, officially, a Principality rather than a full nation. And before anyone gets me on England, Scotland and Wales not being 'nations', the three countries (plus Northern Ireland/Eire, depending on context) are referred to as the 'Home Nations'. A nation doesn't necessarily have to be sovereign to be a nation.

And personally, I think British Navy sounds pretty catchy. Most certainly if the monarchy were abolished in the UK it would have to be over something major: major enough to make it political problematic to maintain two branches of the Armed Forces as 'Royal'.

England Navy. In 2024 Ireland reunifies (start of WWIII). All that can be surmised from Malcolm's family ties in the RN is that England as a bare minimum survives. As the UK ceases to exist there's no evidence Great Britain survives. Maybe Scotland and Wales form The United Celtic Republics with Ireland.

Technically the monarchy is a joint Scottish and English one after the Union of the Crowns but out of the two it's England that would be lumbered with the dead weight after a divorce meaning any future RN is more likely to be an independent English navy than a independent Scottish one.

marty123

> @artan42 said:
> ryan218 wrote: »
>
> starkaos wrote: »
>
> It is only mentioned that Malcolm Reed's father and grandfather were part of the Royal Navy. There is no mention of the British Monarchy in Enterprise. So it is only implied that the British Monarchy still exists since it is possible to have a Royal Navy without Royalty to keep the military traditions alive. After all, it is far more prestigious to be part of the Royal Navy than it is to be part of the England Navy.
>
>
>
>
> *British Navy. England and Britain are not the same thing. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is an island which is home to the three nations of England, Scotland and Wales* which make up Great Britain.
>
> *Wales is, officially, a Principality rather than a full nation. And before anyone gets me on England, Scotland and Wales not being 'nations', the three countries (plus Northern Ireland/Eire, depending on context) are referred to as the 'Home Nations'. A nation doesn't necessarily have to be sovereign to be a nation.
>
> And personally, I think British Navy sounds pretty catchy. Most certainly if the monarchy were abolished in the UK it would have to be over something major: major enough to make it political problematic to maintain two branches of the Armed Forces as 'Royal'.
>
>
>
>
> England Navy. In 2024 Ireland reunifies (start of WWIII). All that can be surmised from Malcolm's family ties in the RN is that England as a bare minimum survives. As the UK ceases to exist there's no evidence Great Britain survives. Maybe Scotland and Wales form The United Celtic Republics with Ireland.
>
> Technically the monarchy is a joint Scottish and English one after the Union of the Crowns but out of the two it's England that would be lumbered with the dead weight after a divorce meaning any future RN is more likely to be an independent English navy than a independent Scottish one.

> @artan42 said:
> ryan218 wrote: »
>
> starkaos wrote: »
>
> It is only mentioned that Malcolm Reed's father and grandfather were part of the Royal Navy. There is no mention of the British Monarchy in Enterprise. So it is only implied that the British Monarchy still exists since it is possible to have a Royal Navy without Royalty to keep the military traditions alive. After all, it is far more prestigious to be part of the Royal Navy than it is to be part of the England Navy.
>
>
>
>
> *British Navy. England and Britain are not the same thing. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is an island which is home to the three nations of England, Scotland and Wales* which make up Great Britain.
>
> *Wales is, officially, a Principality rather than a full nation. And before anyone gets me on England, Scotland and Wales not being 'nations', the three countries (plus Northern Ireland/Eire, depending on context) are referred to as the 'Home Nations'. A nation doesn't necessarily have to be sovereign to be a nation.
>
> And personally, I think British Navy sounds pretty catchy. Most certainly if the monarchy were abolished in the UK it would have to be over something major: major enough to make it political problematic to maintain two branches of the Armed Forces as 'Royal'.
>
>
>
>
> England Navy. In 2024 Ireland reunifies (start of WWIII). All that can be surmised from Malcolm's family ties in the RN is that England as a bare minimum survives. As the UK ceases to exist there's no evidence Great Britain survives. Maybe Scotland and Wales form The United Celtic Republics with Ireland.
>
> Technically the monarchy is a joint Scottish and English one after the Union of the Crowns but out of the two it's England that would be lumbered with the dead weight after a divorce meaning any future RN is more likely to be an independent English navy than a independent Scottish one.

The UK definitely still exist as it’s flag can be seen on an earth probe from the 2130s in voyager, I forget which episode

artan42

brian334 wrote: »

Figureheads can be quite useful, especially to representative democracies, which are notoriously bad at acting in a unified manner during a crisis. There is no reason to have the Royals 'go away' when they can be put to use by the government as spokespeople and as a humanizing face of the government.

Many royal families around the world may be useful to help maintain an ideal of the culture and to remain a touchstone to the history of the nation and people. Symbolic representation is very important to humans.

They do not have to remain politically powerful. They do not have to remain rich. They only serve to remind the people of their past.

Glitzy ambassadors being the public face of a country are one thing. Intrinsically building hereditary privilege into the bedrock of a democracy is antithetical to the concept of democracy.

Giving an ambassador a sily hat to wear is fine. Letting them become Head of State and pass the silly hat down to their offspring with no further consultation is wrong.

Unknown

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artan42

marty123#3757 wrote: »

> @artan42 said:
> ryan218 wrote: »
>
> starkaos wrote: »
>
> It is only mentioned that Malcolm Reed's father and grandfather were part of the Royal Navy. There is no mention of the British Monarchy in Enterprise. So it is only implied that the British Monarchy still exists since it is possible to have a Royal Navy without Royalty to keep the military traditions alive. After all, it is far more prestigious to be part of the Royal Navy than it is to be part of the England Navy.
>
>
>
>
> *British Navy. England and Britain are not the same thing. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is an island which is home to the three nations of England, Scotland and Wales* which make up Great Britain.
>
> *Wales is, officially, a Principality rather than a full nation. And before anyone gets me on England, Scotland and Wales not being 'nations', the three countries (plus Northern Ireland/Eire, depending on context) are referred to as the 'Home Nations'. A nation doesn't necessarily have to be sovereign to be a nation.
>
> And personally, I think British Navy sounds pretty catchy. Most certainly if the monarchy were abolished in the UK it would have to be over something major: major enough to make it political problematic to maintain two branches of the Armed Forces as 'Royal'.
>
>
>
>
> England Navy. In 2024 Ireland reunifies (start of WWIII). All that can be surmised from Malcolm's family ties in the RN is that England as a bare minimum survives. As the UK ceases to exist there's no evidence Great Britain survives. Maybe Scotland and Wales form The United Celtic Republics with Ireland.
>
> Technically the monarchy is a joint Scottish and English one after the Union of the Crowns but out of the two it's England that would be lumbered with the dead weight after a divorce meaning any future RN is more likely to be an independent English navy than a independent Scottish one.

> @artan42 said:
> ryan218 wrote: »
>
> starkaos wrote: »
>
> It is only mentioned that Malcolm Reed's father and grandfather were part of the Royal Navy. There is no mention of the British Monarchy in Enterprise. So it is only implied that the British Monarchy still exists since it is possible to have a Royal Navy without Royalty to keep the military traditions alive. After all, it is far more prestigious to be part of the Royal Navy than it is to be part of the England Navy.
>
>
>
>
> *British Navy. England and Britain are not the same thing. The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Britain is an island which is home to the three nations of England, Scotland and Wales* which make up Great Britain.
>
> *Wales is, officially, a Principality rather than a full nation. And before anyone gets me on England, Scotland and Wales not being 'nations', the three countries (plus Northern Ireland/Eire, depending on context) are referred to as the 'Home Nations'. A nation doesn't necessarily have to be sovereign to be a nation.
>
> And personally, I think British Navy sounds pretty catchy. Most certainly if the monarchy were abolished in the UK it would have to be over something major: major enough to make it political problematic to maintain two branches of the Armed Forces as 'Royal'.
>
>
>
>
> England Navy. In 2024 Ireland reunifies (start of WWIII). All that can be surmised from Malcolm's family ties in the RN is that England as a bare minimum survives. As the UK ceases to exist there's no evidence Great Britain survives. Maybe Scotland and Wales form The United Celtic Republics with Ireland.
>
> Technically the monarchy is a joint Scottish and English one after the Union of the Crowns but out of the two it's England that would be lumbered with the dead weight after a divorce meaning any future RN is more likely to be an independent English navy than a independent Scottish one.

The UK definitely still exist as it’s flag can be seen on an earth probe from the 2130s in voyager, I forget which episode

That's hardly conclusive as it still contains the Irish saltire meaning they don't change the flag anymore after all of Ireland. Judging by the amount of people I know personally who think the Union Flag is the English flag I can easily see actually becoming the English flag.

Also for what it's worth Checkov mentions Leningrad in the future and Scotty seems to be under the delusion Imperial units will still exist and that the IUPAC will forget how aluminium is spelt so it's always possible Star Trek is a product of its time and trying to draw sensible conclusions from a show that's run for 50 years is a bit daft.

Edit: Apart from Irish reunification. We can take that as certain because it'll happen in real life for sure.

mustrumridcully0

I think there is no per se any reason to assume that royalty in the Federation doesn't exist, they might however hold no actual power. Lwaxana Troi liked to boast with heir noble titles, but the only authority she actually seemed to have was derived from her being an ambassador to Betazed.

starkaos

marty123#3757 wrote: »

The UK definitely still exist as it’s flag can be seen on an earth probe from the 2130s in voyager, I forget which episode

England still existed in the 22nd Century since there is a mention of England getting to the finals for the World Cup. So we can only confirm that England and the Royal Navy existed in the 22nd Century, but nothing about the United Kingdom government.

brian334

Who's to say the hereditary title is an actual government position? There are many deposed royals in the modern world who maintain their title.

ryan218

The fact is that in-canon there is no conclusive answer (except I think Reed describes himself as British, not English). That is not evidence that the UK collapsed, nor is the reunification of Ireland. A Third World War would only increase the likelihood of Britain maintaining unity - in such a scenario, neither Scotland, Wales, or England would be able to survive alone (you're talking at the very least London and Glasgow getting nuked, and the latter would hit Edinburgh too). If the US somehow survives a nuclear exchange without disintegrating into the individual states, then there's no reason to assume that every other country would collapse. That England got to the World Cup Final in the 2250s isn't evidence either: England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland all send separate teams (NI compete as part of the Irish team).

Unknown

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Unknown

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starswordc

patrickngo wrote: »

well, going on Starsword's tangent wrt fan-fiction...

Hey, xungnguyen brought it up first.

I'm trying to think of whether there are any monarchies (constitutional or otherwise) that are mentioned to be Federation members, but the only thing that comes to mind is a story from the novelverse that the Andorians were a monarchy at the time of their unification in the 19th century, but Empress Thalisar deliberately died without issue to ensure a transition to their current parliamentary democracy.

ryan218

azrael605 wrote: »

> @ryan218 said:
> The fact is that in-canon there is no conclusive answer (except I think Reed describes himself as British, not English). That is not evidence that the UK collapsed, nor is the reunification of Ireland. A Third World War would only increase the likelihood of Britain maintaining unity - in such a scenario, neither Scotland, Wales, or England would be able to survive alone (you're talking at the very least London and Glasgow getting nuked, and the latter would hit Edinburgh too). If the US somehow survives a nuclear exchange without disintegrating into the individual states, then there's no reason to assume that every other country would collapse. That England got to the World Cup Final in the 2250s isn't evidence either: England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland all send separate teams (NI compete as part of the Irish team).

Irish reunification is canon, TNG The High Ground.

I said Irish reunification wasn't evidence the UK collapsed, not that it didn't happen.

brian334

azrael605 wrote: »

I doubt there are any monarchies left in Africa as Uhura was born in the United States of Africa, its canon.

Constitutional monarchies are not incompatible with democracy. Present day Japan is an example.

Just because a monarch has no real power in a government doesn't mean he has no social status. An example of that is the Moghul descendants in India who are very often dirt poor but revered by those who know of their heritage.

starkaos

I heard of an interesting idea of implementing something similar to a Constitutional Monarchy in America since too many elections become popularity contests. So elect someone to act as the figurehead and another that does the actual work of running the country.

marty123

Constitutional Monarchies are actually democracies and Republics like the United States officially aren’t democracies.

The Andorian Empire is also a constitutional monarchy so there’s no reason why constitutional monarchies can’t be legitimate forms of government inside the United Earth or United Federation of Planets.

starswordc

Oh, another fun one I wrote, in "For We Should Grow Too Fond if It" in the Masterverse. The Federation colony Baraka is a literal caliphate, but the joke is that it's a Kharijite caliphate, the Kharijites being a historical Ibadi sect that rejects a lot of the typical theology around the caliphate. In particular, they reject that the caliph is infallible and must be of the Quraysh tribe (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad's tribe), instead believing that any pious Muslim nominated by other Muslims can be caliph and that any Muslim has a duty to overthrow a sinning ruler. So I invented a calipha (yes, she's a woman, Rashida El-Hashem) who is head of state and subject to impeachment by a legislature of elected imams.