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Suggestion: Starship trait relocation.

mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
Greetings and salutations fellow STO players and developers.

So lets talk T6 ships and their startship trait feature for a moment. More then 3 years ago when it was introduced the intent behind it was "Ships level with their Captain". I get the idea, I do. And its pretty cool one when you have a ship that you love to fly and play with it. You get a bit of extra just by playing. Butt... cuz there is allways a butt, isnt it :P, what happens when a player doesnt like a particular ship but likes the trait. Then the "play", quotas becouse play implays that you have fun and you enjoy yourself, turns in a soul crushing grind done mindlessly for hours in patrols or for more hours in the pve queues (On a side note, I dont understand why in the pve queues, after destroying ships with millions upon millions of hp we are rewarded with such little ship exp :( ) that adds nothing to the game, its obnoxious and makes you waste your time.

So here is an idea: Move to the left the Starship trait, at the begining of the starship mastery. This way the "Ships level with their captains" idea remains, but the grind for the starship trait is gone. So lets say when you buy a ship, you commision it to the ship yard... the trait its unlock automaticly and ready to use (just like the ships console or a special weapon like quad cannons for example, wich as a ship feature, a starship trait shouldnt be any different imho) becouse the mastery would start with it and then continue on to tier 1,2 and so on till 4. Its a simple and yet elegant solution that retains the ship mastery mechanic while stoping the useless grind you have to do for a starship trait.

This change also makes the game and Cryptic look less like EA. For those that dont know, a few months ago, the company EA sold a StarWars game, that after the normal price, you had to pay, with your time (hour of gameplay) or with money, for various features and unlocks. The gamers community reacted, was an outrage and everything, becouse these kind of practices are just wrong. Unfortunelly, and sadly too, something similar to that is happening for more then 3 years in STO. After purchasing your T6 ships, you have to purchase, with your precious time here in the form of hours of grind, an important feature/unlock. Its like having to run around with your purchased TV on your back for a few hours just to unlock its remote...

Also lets talk about the new elephant in the room, the new tier T6 mastery. Why not put this unlock in some other form, like an extra perk for buying the whole vanguard big pack maybe or something else? Becouse right now, its another mindless grind, that in fact adds nothing, gameplay wise, to the ship in question. At least even the tier 5 grind adds the trait that improves your ships, but how on earth the tier 6 grind ship mastery improves your ship??? Why it is tied to the ship mastery makes no sense at all.

So what yall think?
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Comments

  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 3,998 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    No

    Seconded
  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 895 Arc User
    The starship trait system is nothing like EA's system. And if you think it is, making the trait easier to unlock won't change that.
  • wideningxgyrewideningxgyre Member Posts: 710 Arc User
    There are two ways to look at this:

    1) Players who are willing to put time and effort into the game to develop their personal fleets and characters should be rewarded; or

    2) Players will get greater enjoyment from the game (and stay longer and spend more money) if they are not required to grind unnecessarily (the definition of "necessary" is a whole other question).

    My impression is that grinding is the tradeoff to reduce pay-to-win aspects of the game. If you watch some of the players on youtube, they open thousands of lockboxes without spending any real world currency - it's the ultimate in the (space) rich get (space) richer. The game has a self-reinforcing personal economy. Even having more ships unlocked (like the new Jem ships) allows people to move through the Klingon and Ferengi admiralty faster and earn more dil quicker - it's a lot faster than mining every day.

    There are some mechanics which reduce the impact (but doesn't eliminate) the natural advantages that the (space) wealthy have.

    So, I'd vote no. The majority of us would never be able to keep up.
  • mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    There are two ways to look at this:

    1) Players who are willing to put time and effort into the game to develop their personal fleets and characters should be rewarded; or

    2) Players will get greater enjoyment from the game (and stay longer and spend more money) if they are not required to grind unnecessarily (the definition of "necessary" is a whole other question).

    My impression is that grinding is the tradeoff to reduce pay-to-win aspects of the game. If you watch some of the players on youtube, they open thousands of lockboxes without spending any real world currency - it's the ultimate in the (space) rich get (space) richer. The game has a self-reinforcing personal economy. Even having more ships unlocked (like the new Jem ships) allows people to move through the Klingon and Ferengi admiralty faster and earn more dil quicker - it's a lot faster than mining every day.

    There are some mechanics which reduce the impact (but doesn't eliminate) the natural advantages that the (space) wealthy have.

    So, I'd vote no. The majority of us would never be able to keep up.

    You havent understand anything from what I wrote... Like in most mmos, you can get things via paying with money or paying with time... Allways one but not both. Yet in out case you do just that. You pay with your money to actually get the ship and then you pay again with your time to unlock an important feature from it...

  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,304 Community Moderator
    No, it defeats the point in "mastering" the ship. The Trait is the payoff for mastering the ship. If you were going to "give away" the Trait from the get-go, then you might as well not even have the Trait connected to the ship at all, and sell the Traits directly from the C-Store.
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  • wideningxgyrewideningxgyre Member Posts: 710 Arc User
    Actually, you haven't understood what I have written.

    I understand completely that in many MMOs, players must pay with EITHER time or money.

    I am saying that the self-reinforcing nature of the STO economy (where the richer you are, the easier it is to get richer) makes combining the two mechanics necessary to achieve some balance.

    Using the Tier 6 Jem ship mastery as an example. If the ship unlocked immediately, players with huge armies of alts would have a much easier time generating refined dil. Time is the resource that is most scarce for these players.

    I'm not necessarily saying that all ships ought to have a Tier 6. But, since Gamma recruits start at level 60 and have access to all the other game mechanics, it makes sense to create some limitations.
  • mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    No, it defeats the point in "mastering" the ship. The Trait is the payoff for mastering the ship. If you were going to "give away" the Trait from the get-go, then you might as well not even have the Trait connected to the ship at all, and sell the Traits directly from the C-Store.

    Thats not true. The mastering of the ship includes the levels and the bonuses you are getting from reaching tier 1,2 and so on. Those remain unchanged. The Trait is nothing more then a diferent console, wich you allready payed, located at the length of an unecesary grind. Much like a console, it can be moved freely on any other ship, unlike the ship mastery levels. The trait has nothing to do with mastering your ship since its not tied up to the ship.

    And FYI traits ARE allready sold separatly, just not in the C-Store.
  • mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    OP, its not happening, nor is there any need whatsoever for it to happen. Secondly, much as I disagree with wideningxgyre on many things he understood what you said perfectly, you fail to understand his response.

    Ohh I did understand his response. Its just a bitter way to say that he want a bottle neck becouse he cant keep up with ppl with too many ships. Wich had nothing related to do with what I said...
  • themadrigogsthemadrigogs Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    mosul33 wrote: »
    No, it defeats the point in "mastering" the ship. The Trait is the payoff for mastering the ship. If you were going to "give away" the Trait from the get-go, then you might as well not even have the Trait connected to the ship at all, and sell the Traits directly from the C-Store.

    Thats not true. The mastering of the ship includes the levels and the bonuses you are getting from reaching tier 1,2 and so on. Those remain unchanged. The Trait is nothing more then a diferent console located at the length of an unecesary grind. Much like a console, it can be moved freely on any other ship, unlike the ship mastery levels. The trait has nothing to do with mastering your ship since its not tied up to the ship.

    And FYI traits ARE allready sold separatly, just not in the C-Store.

    Of course the traits are tied to the mastering of the ship. They are tied thematically. Janeway, for instance, had to captain her ship for seven full years before she was able to unlock the Ablative Field Projector. Why should you get it right away?
  • mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    Actually, you haven't understood what I have written.

    I understand completely that in many MMOs, players must pay with EITHER time or money.

    I am saying that the self-reinforcing nature of the STO economy (where the richer you are, the easier it is to get richer) makes combining the two mechanics necessary to achieve some balance.

    Using the Tier 6 Jem ship mastery as an example. If the ship unlocked immediately, players with huge armies of alts would have a much easier time generating refined dil. Time is the resource that is most scarce for these players.

    I'm not necessarily saying that all ships ought to have a Tier 6. But, since Gamma recruits start at level 60 and have access to all the other game mechanics, it makes sense to create some limitations.

    So you want a bottle neck becouse you cant keep up with other players... Its like saying that you want to nerf other players for been good at something becouse you cant keep it up... Well no offence there, but thats just selfish...
  • mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    mosul33 wrote: »
    No, it defeats the point in "mastering" the ship. The Trait is the payoff for mastering the ship. If you were going to "give away" the Trait from the get-go, then you might as well not even have the Trait connected to the ship at all, and sell the Traits directly from the C-Store.

    Thats not true. The mastering of the ship includes the levels and the bonuses you are getting from reaching tier 1,2 and so on. Those remain unchanged. The Trait is nothing more then a diferent console located at the length of an unecesary grind. Much like a console, it can be moved freely on any other ship, unlike the ship mastery levels. The trait has nothing to do with mastering your ship since its not tied up to the ship.

    And FYI traits ARE allready sold separatly, just not in the C-Store.

    Of course the traits are tied to the mastering of the ship. They are tied thematically. Janeway, for instance, had to captain her ship for seven full years before she was able to unlock the Ablative Field Projector. Why should you get it right away?

    Becouse its just a god damm game... And you are allready paying for the Trait... The grind makes it so you pay it again, this time with your time...
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    A solid "no" OP. It takes easily less than 30 minutes to master a ship trait. Not a "soul crushing" period of hours.
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  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
    The trait is a perk for buying the ship, or at least it should be.

    The system isn't bad although it does have a pretty huge imperfection on the gamblebox side where off faction players can buy the trait very cheaply compared to what the gougers want for the ship.

    The concept of weapons or gear that grows with the player isn't a new one but as LOTRO proved with their LI system they grow but only to a point after which they're discarded or broken down for spare parts.

    Ship mastery could have been expanded to a whole new skill tree based around the vessel but (not surprisingly) cryptic went for the 5 steps we currently have although to call it a mastery when all the captain did was multiple 4/5 runs of argala is a bit of a longshot.
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,914 Arc User
    Another solid no from me too.

    What the others have said. Azrael, BMR, madrigogs, wideningxgyre.

    Well said, gentlemen.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    I don't care, I agree with you OP.

    Starship 'Mastery' is a stupid waste of time. How the hell is anyone 'mastering' anything? I claim a ship then have to spend 30 min in Argala warping out after 4 waves just to get the one thing I really need for that character. It's a stupid system and a total waste of time.

    They will never change it, there is absolutely no chance.. but they should. The compromise.. which they also won't do.. is that once you 'master' a ship the first time, the trait should unlock account wide.

    Starship Mastery is a stupid system and a total waste of players time.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...here's a novel idea. Only buy ships that you like and wanna fly and not buy power (which they will nerf anyways later down the line). That way, when you "grind" out the mastery, you are actually having fun flying a ship you like. I will admit that there have been two ships I have broken that rule on. But really...I fly ships I like. So grinding out masteries is whatever.

    That's solid advice, but for me.. I always end up with a mix of both.

    The last couple ships I bought were ships that I liked and have characters flying as their 'main ships,' but they also had traits that I wanted for other characters. I usually try not to just buy for traits (I did at one time, but since they like to nerf things that people pay for, I don't do that anymore) but I still end up wanting traits on multiple characters.

    I get what people are saying, I just personally hate unlocking traits. To me, the ship is an account wide unlock.. I wish the trait was as well. People could still feel free to do the 1-4 Mastery if they actually intend to fly the ship. Mastery should be about just that.. mastering the ship. The trait should be a perk of buying the item.

    Just my opinion, I don't have the slightest expectation that anything will ever change.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    mosul33 wrote: »
    So here is an idea: Move to the left the Starship trait, at the begining of the starship mastery. This way the "Ships level with their captains" idea remains, but the grind for the starship trait is gone.


    Another solid no from me too. What echatty said about the gentlemen above.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    Actually, you haven't understood what I have written.


    Please, stop saying that, every other post. People understood you just fine. It's simply a bad idea.

    There are arguably a few things wrong with Mastery. For instance, you shouldn't have to re-do Mastery on the Fleet version of your ship. That's just plain stupid (not to mention, extremely annoying). And one could make a cogent case, saying that once you did the Mastery on one toon, it should be done when you reclaim the ship on another (although that may be difficult to implement). At any rate, your idea is just lame, for reasons best outlined by BMR.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    They will never change it, there is absolutely no chance.. but they should. The compromise.. which they also won't do.. is that once you 'master' a ship the first time, the trait should unlock account wide.


    This I can agree with. For account-unlockable ships, the Trait, once obtained, should unlock account-wide with it too. (And with that system in place, once the game realizes you are eligible for the Trait on your other toon, it should rightfully consider Mastery filled in full for that character)
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  • potasssiumpotasssium Member Posts: 1,226 Arc User
    I use RA for ship mastery and rep marks, while maruadering. Heck the RA transwarp can be useful itself sometimes.

    But then I'm perfectly fine with slowly making my way through getting the traits I want from ships I want, instead of grinding out a Mastery quickly. Having designated each character with their own primary ship of choice.

    I just run them through others for traits.

    The only thing I'm finding tedious is the time it take to account unlock a Jem'Hadar Vanguard Ship, but that is an account unlocking so with the the time.
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  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    I think you're a troll and this is a supposed inflamatory post.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    I have to say I am shocked that this many people seem to love the trait grind. It's such a bad system, but apparently everyone loves Argala loops. I have to say I find that surprising.

    While I disagree with the comparison to the EA game, I think the idea is a good one. Either the trait should unlock automatically, or the grind should be a one time thing that unlocks the trait for eligible characters on your account (Obviously, KDF players couldn't claim traits unlocked from Fed ships and Vice Versa.) Anything to reduce the mind numbingly silly Trait Grind, it sucks that every time you want to experiment with a new build and try some different traits that you have a ridiculous 20-30 min grind for each trait you want to test. I have had several times that I wanted to try something new and didn't because I was looking at too many trait grinds.

    It's a stupid system that discourages experimentation.
    casualsto wrote: »
    I think you're a troll and this is a supposed inflamatory post.

    Unnecessarily hostile. People are jumping on the guy for posting an idea, one that wasn't even that bad.

    Seriously, people should stop being so frikkn' rude. It's one thing if someone comes in ranting and raving and making demands, but you people don't have to be TRIBBLE heads to people making well reasoned suggestions even if you don't agree.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    That sounds like a bad idea. The best thing you get from mastering a ship is the Starship Mastery Trait. It naturally should be at the end of the track, not the beginning.

    I can see that the trait unlock status could be an account state thing. Not particularly because it makes sense, just because it's convenient and you've "done your work".
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    I have to say I am shocked that this many people seem to love the trait grind. It's such a bad system, but apparently everyone loves Argala loops.

    This. Really surprises me as well how people complain about excessive grind all the time, yet now suddenly they seem to love it, because you can disagree with someone else in forums?
    Seriously, people should stop being so frikkn' rude. It's one thing if someone comes in ranting and raving and making demands, but you people don't have to be **** heads to people making well reasoned suggestions even if you don't agree.

    Also this.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    I have to say I am shocked that this many people seem to love the trait grind. It's such a bad system, but apparently everyone loves Argala loops.

    This. Really surprises me as well how people complain about excessive grind all the time, yet now suddenly they seem to love it, because you can disagree with someone else in forums?


    I think you guys are missing the point here. Nobody loves the grind. Not really. But GIVEN THAT THE MASTERY GRIND EXISTS, I think ppl are opposed to the idea of putting the cart before the horse; aka, you unlock the reward after the grind, not vice versa. Also, as BMR pointed out, the effect of 'rewarding first, then have you do the labor' would simply be that ppl will just forego on doing the labor altogether.
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