you skipped a step in your reasonings. If we had live Vaadwuar what would we do with them?
I disagree with "skipping it", but your question is a legitimate one. As a Fed, I would thaw them out....or ensure a stable long term solution for those that could not be revived for whatever reason...and then they would be held as Prisoners of War until either hostilities ended or they were paroled or properly exchanged under the relevant Federation Law and Treaties the Federation is signatory of. Gaul (or Eldex if Gaul was dead), as the leader of the Varduuar State, would be duly provided a list of the survivors held, and the bodies of any who died in the interim.
If some or all of them applied for Refugee status...and not a few Varduaar were fed up with the fighting and just wanted to start over...that would be a matter for the Federation Government to decide, not Starfleet.
The Republic would likely do something similar....what the KDF would do would be interesting, given their views on being prisoner. I would imagine they would be thawed and dumped in one of their Gulags for the duration.
however, you also have to understand that it's unintentional hypocrisy of the sort you get when you're picking 'winners' and narrowing all moral decisions down to 'does it serve the dominant faction?'
Both the "Future Proof" and Kobali ground mission sets are really advertising for a mentality in which those who oppose your ideals are not really people, and therefore, are only valid as range targets, likewise, diversity means different skin colours, but not different perspectives, and 'multi culturalism' is fine, as long as it supports the dominant narrative.
Thus, war crimes are fine, as long as they only happen to 'bad people'-as in people whose goodness or badness depends on their group identity's support for the ascendency of the dominant narrative in the work, so a cargo of frozen humans would have everyone come in guns blazing, but a cargo of frozen Vadwaur are just raw materials, and while desecrating dead humans might be enough to make Starfleet pull their support, helping desecrate dead Vadwaur is 'following the prime directive'.
I kinda suspect a lot of the "Temporal Liberation Front" are probably survivors of some Genocide or other that worked in favour of the Federation ruling all of known space, and therefore, the dead are, well...inconsequential, no matter how **** together and forced the timeline and events are (and you don't need a whole branch of 'time cops' if the timeline is the correct one, said cops constantly working to force events into a specific mold when said events entirely revolve around a time-loop caused via their influence.)
really, it feels like what it is; the propaganda element in the game. A lot of the authority of Daniels and Grey comes down to a tautology; "It is because I say it is".
of course, your Klingon, Romulan, or non-Federation toon must go along with it, and is even forced to mouth support for it, regardless of the fact that supporting that tautology is inimical to their own personal, as well as cultural, interests.
thus, the missions are unskippable, because the Tautology must be maintained.
I would be disgusted by what the Kobali are doing to dead humans (like Harry Kim), but that is something I would leave to Starfleet Command and the Okeg Administration to deal with as they saw fit. Realistically, any competent PR firm in Federation Space could get them all the volunteers than they could process.
As an aside. If I were a Ferengi, I'd try to get a hold of the virus they use for that process and make a absolute fortune selling it to humans wanting to extend their lifespans.....since humans seem to survive Kobalification with their memories intact they would be a prime market for it.
As far as the Varduaar's actions.....I would be obliged to stop them from deploying the Kobali killer agent, but I would refuse to help them reverse the vaccine the Varduaar were using to prevent Kobalification of their own dead...that is just plain vile.
The TLF's motivations were quite clear.
Noye( The Envoy) wanted revenge for his wife(and unborn child) being deleted from the timestream, he also blamed the Federation for the near destruction of the Krenim by the Iconian's Varduaar proxies. He and many of his own followers wanted a new Krenim Empire as well....but that wasn't the main motivation.
Mirror Leeta was paid by Noye to help, but undoubtedly was using the Krenim as Useful Idiots™ to aid her own schemes.
Boratus and his Vorgon contingent were butt-hurt because the player kicked his tail and wasted his sister when they tried to steal the Tox Uthat to sell to the highest bidder.
The Solenae are the Tuterians. They want to destroy the Federation because Noye told them they were responsible for their predicament....and no doubt omitted to mention his role in the timeline alterations that led to their destruction at the hands of the Borg. (the incursion intended to delay the return of the Iconians and restore Romulus also resulted in the Assimilation of most of the Tuterians, whose tech enabled the Borg to Assimilate Romulus...IMO the timeline's way of correcting itself as apparently Romulus was destined to be destroyed one way or another)
The Na'Kuhl wanted revenge as well, blaming the Federation for the loss of their homeworld. That would be a lot more justifiable, however, if the reason the Tholians destroyed Na'Kuhl's star hadn't been to get revenge for the wholly unprovoked mass murder of a Tholian Colony Fleet in the 23rd Century.....intended by the Na'Kuhl as a False Flag event to frame the Federation and lock them in a ruinous war with the Tholian Assembly. It's part of the AoY storyline....it failed miserably because the player buys the Queen enough time to notify the Assembly who the real culprits are. It's also tied to the Tholians attacking and disabling Enterprise in ENT to get Kal Dano's ship, but the reasons for that aren't explained anywhere to my knowledge. I would guess the 28th or 31st Century Tholians were in contact with their 22nd, 23rd, and 25th century ancestors to arrange their revenge.
All of the above is related to the player going back to the distant past and saving the Iconians, then returning to resolve the loop in Midnight. Apparantly Procyon V resolves a second loop as well, as hinted by one of the blogs. I wonder what originally happened to make that first trip happen and establish the loop.
The Republic would likely do something similar....what the KDF would do would be interesting, given their views on being prisoner. I would imagine they would be thawed and dumped in one of their Gulags for the duration.
My Orion would stick them all in the brig to sell as slaves later.
you skipped a step in your reasonings. If we had live Vaadwuar what would we do with them?
I disagree with "skipping it", but your question is a legitimate one. As a Fed, I would thaw them out....or ensure a stable long term solution for those that could not be revived for whatever reason...and then they would be held as Prisoners of War until either hostilities ended or they were paroled or properly exchanged under the relevant Federation Law and Treaties the Federation is signatory of. Gaul (or Eldex if Gaul was dead), as the leader of the Varduuar State, would be duly provided a list of the survivors held, and the bodies of any who died in the interim.
If some or all of them applied for Refugee status...and not a few Varduaar were fed up with the fighting and just wanted to start over...that would be a matter for the Federation Government to decide, not Starfleet.
The Republic would likely do something similar....what the KDF would do would be interesting, given their views on being prisoner. I would imagine they would be thawed and dumped in one of their Gulags for the duration.
however, you also have to understand that it's unintentional hypocrisy of the sort you get when you're picking 'winners' and narrowing all moral decisions down to 'does it serve the dominant faction?'
Both the "Future Proof" and Kobali ground mission sets are really advertising for a mentality in which those who oppose your ideals are not really people, and therefore, are only valid as range targets, likewise, diversity means different skin colours, but not different perspectives, and 'multi culturalism' is fine, as long as it supports the dominant narrative.
Thus, war crimes are fine, as long as they only happen to 'bad people'-as in people whose goodness or badness depends on their group identity's support for the ascendency of the dominant narrative in the work, so a cargo of frozen humans would have everyone come in guns blazing, but a cargo of frozen Vadwaur are just raw materials, and while desecrating dead humans might be enough to make Starfleet pull their support, helping desecrate dead Vadwaur is 'following the prime directive'.
I kinda suspect a lot of the "Temporal Liberation Front" are probably survivors of some Genocide or other that worked in favour of the Federation ruling all of known space, and therefore, the dead are, well...inconsequential, no matter how **** together and forced the timeline and events are (and you don't need a whole branch of 'time cops' if the timeline is the correct one, said cops constantly working to force events into a specific mold when said events entirely revolve around a time-loop caused via their influence.)
really, it feels like what it is; the propaganda element in the game. A lot of the authority of Daniels and Grey comes down to a tautology; "It is because I say it is".
of course, your Klingon, Romulan, or non-Federation toon must go along with it, and is even forced to mouth support for it, regardless of the fact that supporting that tautology is inimical to their own personal, as well as cultural, interests.
thus, the missions are unskippable, because the Tautology must be maintained.
I would be disgusted by what the Kobali are doing to dead humans (like Harry Kim), but that is something I would leave to Starfleet Command and the Okeg Administration to deal with as they saw fit. Realistically, any competent PR firm in Federation Space could get them all the volunteers than they could process.
As an aside. If I were a Ferengi, I'd try to get a hold of the virus they use for that process and make a absolute fortune selling it to humans wanting to extend their lifespans.....since humans seem to survive Kobalification with their memories intact they would be a prime market for it.
As far as the Varduaar's actions.....I would be obliged to stop them from deploying the Kobali killer agent, but I would refuse to help them reverse the vaccine the Varduaar were using to prevent Kobalification of their own dead...that is just plain vile.
The TLF's motivations were quite clear.
Noye( The Envoy) wanted revenge for his wife(and unborn child) being deleted from the timestream, he also blamed the Federation for the near destruction of the Krenim by the Iconian's Varduaar proxies. He and many of his own followers wanted a new Krenim Empire as well....but that wasn't the main motivation.
Mirror Leeta was paid by Noye to help, but undoubtedly was using the Krenim as Useful Idiots™ to aid her own schemes.
Boratus and his Vorgon contingent were butt-hurt because the player kicked his tail and wasted his sister when they tried to steal the Tox Uthat to sell to the highest bidder.
The Solenae are the Tuterians. They want to destroy the Federation because Noye told them they were responsible for their predicament....and no doubt omitted to mention his role in the timeline alterations that led to their destruction at the hands of the Borg. (the incursion intended to delay the return of the Iconians and restore Romulus also resulted in the Assimilation of most of the Tuterians, whose tech enabled the Borg to Assimilate Romulus...IMO the timeline's way of correcting itself as apparently Romulus was destined to be destroyed one way or another)
The Na'Kuhl wanted revenge as well, blaming the Federation for the loss of their homeworld. That would be a lot more justifiable, however, if the reason the Tholians destroyed Na'Kuhl's star hadn't been to get revenge for the wholly unprovoked mass murder of a Tholian Colony Fleet in the 23rd Century.....intended by the Na'Kuhl as a False Flag event to frame the Federation and lock them in a ruinous war with the Tholian Assembly. It's part of the AoY storyline....it failed miserably because the player buys the Queen enough time to notify the Assembly who the real culprits are. It's also tied to the Tholians attacking and disabling Enterprise in ENT to get Kal Dano's ship, but the reasons for that aren't explained anywhere to my knowledge. I would guess the 28th or 31st Century Tholians were in contact with their 22nd, 23rd, and 25th century ancestors to arrange their revenge.
All of the above is related to the player going back to the distant past and saving the Iconians, then returning to resolve the loop in Midnight. Apparantly Procyon V resolves a second loop as well, as hinted by one of the blogs. I wonder what originally happened to make that first trip happen and establish the loop.
and how did the Tholians get the weapon that provoked the Na'Kuhl in the first place? You need to carry it all the way through, Kal Dano's trip to the past, to change the past.
Sanctioned, by Temporal Affairs. Because they needed him to fail, they needed the Tholians to steal the device, and kill the Na'Kuhl Star, and kick off the whole shebang, including the Iconian War, the time-travel back to 'destroy' (save) the Iconians (thus guaranteeing the war), creating Mad-scientist Noye AND destroying the Tuterians...
so that they can exist. "It is right, because we say it is!" isn't a justification. The Linchpin event, is going back to (save) "Destroy" the Iconians. Without that, the whole thing collapses and a different continuity occurs, one where the decisions of the people in the 24th century (and 25th) actually have meaning and purpose beyond fulfilling a pre-selected and manipulated into being 'destiny'.
So that everything anyone in the game universe has ever known can exist. The disastrous attempts to use the Annorax to get rid of the iconians showed what happens when you mess with time (as did the original Annorax's 200 year quest to use the original weapon for the same purpose, though nobody in-character knows about that since it was erased from history). You can't play dice with history and expect to win.
and how did the Tholians get the weapon that provoked the Na'Kuhl in the first place? You need to carry it all the way through, Kal Dano's trip to the past, to change the past.
Sanctioned, by Temporal Affairs. Because they needed him to fail, they needed the Tholians to steal the device, and kill the Na'Kuhl Star, and kick off the whole shebang, including the Iconian War, the time-travel back to 'destroy' (save) the Iconians (thus guaranteeing the war), creating Mad-scientist Noye AND destroying the Tuterians...
so that they can exist. "It is right, because we say it is!" isn't a justification. The Linchpin event, is going back to (save) "Destroy" the Iconians. Without that, the whole thing collapses and a different continuity occurs, one where the decisions of the people in the 24th century (and 25th) actually have meaning and purpose beyond fulfilling a pre-selected and manipulated into being 'destiny'.
We don't know, really. As far as I can tell, there are at least two major time loops in play, and quite likely a third, if not more. Unless Cryptic chooses to explain it (for example, a timeline of the ur-timeline, the way things were until people started meddling with it), we have no idea what the goals and motivations of Daniels and his associates are. You choose to believe it's some malign plot by future Feds to conquer all known space...but I'm not convinced. I believe it's more likely someone messed with time and really screwed things up, and the future's efforts are directed to trying to undo as much of the damage as possible. The blog I linked to previously makes it clear that at some point the Federation either fixed the Na'Kuhl's home star or engineered things so that it was never lost in the first place.
In a way, this reminds me of the overarching plot of the Metal Gear series. In my MGS4 Player Guide, they explain the whole plot of the series and reveal that the true protagonist of the series was Ocelot, who sacrificed everything he cared about, and his reputation, and in the end his life, to free the world from the Patriots. Laid out in print, I could (barely) get a grip on it, but it made my head hurt, just as the temporal shenanigans in STO make my head hurt. Until Cryptic sees fit to explain what actually happened, all we can do is speculate, based on what pieces of the puzzle we have, and our own biases.
Personally, I doubt that Cryptic would pull a "good guys are really the bad guys" plot twist on something this big, but of course I could be wrong.
The Temporal Cold War is canon Trek, so there's absolutely no chance Cryptic would try to retcon it, or that CBS would allow them to.
And Kal Dano wasn't the first cause. He was responding to the tholians messing with the Lukari star. Which they likely were doing with the express purpose of attracting someone from the future to reverse it so they could steal the device. The tholians are time-active.
What the tholians actually wanted with the Tox Uthat we don't know. Destroying the Na'kuhl star they could've easily accomplished even with 24th century tech.
Can't proof us against the future if you go skipping some of the proofs against the future don't you know.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
you skipped a step in your reasonings. If we had live Vaadwuar what would we do with them?
I disagree with "skipping it", but your question is a legitimate one. As a Fed, I would thaw them out....or ensure a stable long term solution for those that could not be revived for whatever reason...and then they would be held as Prisoners of War until either hostilities ended or they were paroled or properly exchanged under the relevant Federation Law and Treaties the Federation is signatory of. Gaul (or Eldex if Gaul was dead), as the leader of the Varduuar State, would be duly provided a list of the survivors held, and the bodies of any who died in the interim.
If some or all of them applied for Refugee status...and not a few Varduaar were fed up with the fighting and just wanted to start over...that would be a matter for the Federation Government to decide, not Starfleet.
The Republic would likely do something similar....what the KDF would do would be interesting, given their views on being prisoner. I would imagine they would be thawed and dumped in one of their Gulags for the duration.
however, you also have to understand that it's unintentional hypocrisy of the sort you get when you're picking 'winners' and narrowing all moral decisions down to 'does it serve the dominant faction?'
Both the "Future Proof" and Kobali ground mission sets are really advertising for a mentality in which those who oppose your ideals are not really people, and therefore, are only valid as range targets, likewise, diversity means different skin colours, but not different perspectives, and 'multi culturalism' is fine, as long as it supports the dominant narrative.
Thus, war crimes are fine, as long as they only happen to 'bad people'-as in people whose goodness or badness depends on their group identity's support for the ascendency of the dominant narrative in the work, so a cargo of frozen humans would have everyone come in guns blazing, but a cargo of frozen Vadwaur are just raw materials, and while desecrating dead humans might be enough to make Starfleet pull their support, helping desecrate dead Vadwaur is 'following the prime directive'.
I kinda suspect a lot of the "Temporal Liberation Front" are probably survivors of some Genocide or other that worked in favour of the Federation ruling all of known space, and therefore, the dead are, well...inconsequential, no matter how **** together and forced the timeline and events are (and you don't need a whole branch of 'time cops' if the timeline is the correct one, said cops constantly working to force events into a specific mold when said events entirely revolve around a time-loop caused via their influence.)
really, it feels like what it is; the propaganda element in the game. A lot of the authority of Daniels and Grey comes down to a tautology; "It is because I say it is".
of course, your Klingon, Romulan, or non-Federation toon must go along with it, and is even forced to mouth support for it, regardless of the fact that supporting that tautology is inimical to their own personal, as well as cultural, interests.
thus, the missions are unskippable, because the Tautology must be maintained.
I would be disgusted by what the Kobali are doing to dead humans (like Harry Kim), but that is something I would leave to Starfleet Command and the Okeg Administration to deal with as they saw fit. Realistically, any competent PR firm in Federation Space could get them all the volunteers than they could process.
As an aside. If I were a Ferengi, I'd try to get a hold of the virus they use for that process and make a absolute fortune selling it to humans wanting to extend their lifespans.....since humans seem to survive Kobalification with their memories intact they would be a prime market for it.
As far as the Varduaar's actions.....I would be obliged to stop them from deploying the Kobali killer agent, but I would refuse to help them reverse the vaccine the Varduaar were using to prevent Kobalification of their own dead...that is just plain vile.
The TLF's motivations were quite clear.
Noye( The Envoy) wanted revenge for his wife(and unborn child) being deleted from the timestream, he also blamed the Federation for the near destruction of the Krenim by the Iconian's Varduaar proxies. He and many of his own followers wanted a new Krenim Empire as well....but that wasn't the main motivation.
Mirror Leeta was paid by Noye to help, but undoubtedly was using the Krenim as Useful Idiots™ to aid her own schemes.
Boratus and his Vorgon contingent were butt-hurt because the player kicked his tail and wasted his sister when they tried to steal the Tox Uthat to sell to the highest bidder.
The Solenae are the Tuterians. They want to destroy the Federation because Noye told them they were responsible for their predicament....and no doubt omitted to mention his role in the timeline alterations that led to their destruction at the hands of the Borg. (the incursion intended to delay the return of the Iconians and restore Romulus also resulted in the Assimilation of most of the Tuterians, whose tech enabled the Borg to Assimilate Romulus...IMO the timeline's way of correcting itself as apparently Romulus was destined to be destroyed one way or another)
The Na'Kuhl wanted revenge as well, blaming the Federation for the loss of their homeworld. That would be a lot more justifiable, however, if the reason the Tholians destroyed Na'Kuhl's star hadn't been to get revenge for the wholly unprovoked mass murder of a Tholian Colony Fleet in the 23rd Century.....intended by the Na'Kuhl as a False Flag event to frame the Federation and lock them in a ruinous war with the Tholian Assembly. It's part of the AoY storyline....it failed miserably because the player buys the Queen enough time to notify the Assembly who the real culprits are. It's also tied to the Tholians attacking and disabling Enterprise in ENT to get Kal Dano's ship, but the reasons for that aren't explained anywhere to my knowledge. I would guess the 28th or 31st Century Tholians were in contact with their 22nd, 23rd, and 25th century ancestors to arrange their revenge.
All of the above is related to the player going back to the distant past and saving the Iconians, then returning to resolve the loop in Midnight. Apparantly Procyon V resolves a second loop as well, as hinted by one of the blogs. I wonder what originally happened to make that first trip happen and establish the loop.
and how did the Tholians get the weapon that provoked the Na'Kuhl in the first place? You need to carry it all the way through, Kal Dano's trip to the past, to change the past.
Sanctioned, by Temporal Affairs. Because they needed him to fail, they needed the Tholians to steal the device, and kill the Na'Kuhl Star, and kick off the whole shebang, including the Iconian War, the time-travel back to 'destroy' (save) the Iconians (thus guaranteeing the war), creating Mad-scientist Noye AND destroying the Tuterians...
so that they can exist. "It is right, because we say it is!" isn't a justification. The Linchpin event, is going back to (save) "Destroy" the Iconians. Without that, the whole thing collapses and a different continuity occurs, one where the decisions of the people in the 24th century (and 25th) actually have meaning and purpose beyond fulfilling a pre-selected and manipulated into being 'destiny'.
So that everything anyone in the game universe has ever known can exist. The disastrous attempts to use the Annorax to get rid of the iconians showed what happens when you mess with time (as did the original Annorax's 200 year quest to use the original weapon for the same purpose, though nobody in-character knows about that since it was erased from history). You can't play dice with history and expect to win.
They're NOT 'playing dice', every move is coordinated and arranged, it's why they have so much reliance on time-travel tech and why Temporal Affairs has so much raw influence. Let me give a simple example; Instead of undoing what was done to the Na'Kuhl sun immediately, (which was done in a prior episode already for the Lukari), Kal Dano and the player bury it in a cave, and let the disaster progress as-is, and while the player doesn't know, Dano certainly did. (As would anyone from Temporal affairs.)
No Na'Kuhl, no big army to form the bulk of TLF's forces. also no provocation of the Tholians BY them, false flag or not.
no big galaxy-spanning war, means Temporal Affairs is an academic branch instead of a major power player able to dictate terms to the early 25th Century Klingon Empire to scuttle the Korath program when that nation isn't already a subcomponent of the Federation.
The bad guys are the ones playing dice. The na'kuhl at the Temporal Accords conference even says as much. They don't care if they erase themselves from history as long as they get to go back in time to blow stuff up in a childishly misdirected attempt at vengeance. The good guys learned their lesson the first time. That's the point. You don't "fix" history because you don't like it. It doesn't work. You keep the one you know or surrender to chaos.
And as said, the tholians totally could've blown up the na'kuhl even without the Tox.
And I assume you have a clear and well-thought-out argument to back up that statement?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And I assume you have a clear and well-thought-out argument to back up that statement?
Basically, Pat's argument hinges on the assumption that the TIC and Temporal accords are entirely self-serving. In reality than often work to prevent belligerent powers like the Na'kuhl from wiping out third parties. For example, Vosk once tried to wipe out the Suliban. Daniels stopped that.
Let's look at some Federation member worlds, Vulcan, culture includes duels to the death & arranged marriage as well as endemic predjudice against non-vulcans observed across 3 centuries of lore, being a Federation member has not changed this. So why would any of these facts change for Klingons who also practice all of the above? Betazoids also practice arranged marriage, unchanged by membership. But we're supposed to buy this concept that alone out of all cultures the Klingons would be forced to change their culture. It's just staggering.
I think it's a fear that Klingons wouldn't want to live that way if given a choice.
Reminds me of the musings of General Jack D. Ripper:
'Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I-I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women, er, women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Would the Federation still happen without the Iconian war? Probably. would it still be a major power? likely. none of your operations' failures would have prevented that. What would be prevented, is the history that 'agent phillip grey and agent Pope Daniels' come from.
the "Now we've meddled enough, we're going to stop anyone from reversing the changes and we'll do it by force."
You are making a huge assumption here, @patrickngo . I don't think we have enough information to say one way or the other.
Let's take Temporal Affairs mission statement at face value, for the moment. If anyone can alter the timeline, the end result is a galaxy in chaos as various species use time as a weapon against each other. In addition, there are instances where groups or individuals alter time by accident. To maintain stability for the majority, temporal tampering is outlawed. Having said that, in order to have "time cops" you MUST insure a timeline that leads to the creation of said "time cops". Temporal Affairs is both self-serving and practical in this way. I enjoy the moral greyness.
It's a shame they murdered Noye's wife and undercut his stance. There was plenty of good motivation over "who should police time?" and "who watches the watchers?". Temporal Affairs, by it's very nature, must stand outside most systems of law. There is plenty of good "food for thought" that could have been presented, or even debated. Who oversee's Temporal Affairs? Is there some level of transparency for the citizens of the galaxy as to the standards and practices of Temporal Affairs? Did Temporal Affairs even try, or do they just say "this is for the good of the majority" and we take them at their word? What systems are in place to prevent abuse of power within Temporal Affairs?
I feel most of @patrickngo 's issues are with the nebulous nature of Temporal Affairs and their inability (or refusal) to be forthcoming with how they determine what temporal shenanigans they support, and those they "correct". Everything we see as players tend to be on the self-serving side. This is fine, but presents an unbalanced view of what Temporal Affairs larger purpose is supposed to be: Preventing the galaxy from sliding into chaos due to weaponizing time or correcting accidental temporal mishap.
Wanna stop Noye? Just shoot him in the face when you go meet him, moments after (in your timeline) his attack on the Temporal Accords conference.
But that's what's called a Grandfather Paradox. You CAN'T stop Noye from stealing the Annorax, because then he won't attack the conference with it and you won't know you have to stop him from stealing the Annorax in the first place.
Let's take Temporal Affairs mission statement at face value, for the moment. If anyone can alter the timeline, the end result is a galaxy in chaos as various species use time as a weapon against each other. In addition, there are instances where groups or individuals alter time by accident. To maintain stability for the majority, temporal tampering is outlawed. Having said that, in order to have "time cops" you MUST insure a timeline that leads to the creation of said "time cops". Temporal Affairs is both self-serving and practical in this way. I enjoy the moral greyness.
There is no moral greyness. The only timeline you can know the outcome of is the one you have lived. Stopping irresponsible fools from gambling with the very existence of everything anyone has ever known is very much of the good.
It's a shame they murdered Noye's wife and undercut his stance. There was plenty of good motivation over "who should police time?" and "who watches the watchers?". Temporal Affairs, by it's very nature, must stand outside most systems of law. There is plenty of good "food for thought" that could have been presented, or even debated. Who oversee's Temporal Affairs? Is there some level of transparency for the citizens of the galaxy as to the standards and practices of Temporal Affairs? Did Temporal Affairs even try, or do they just say "this is for the good of the majority" and we take them at their word? What systems are in place to prevent abuse of power within Temporal Affairs?
Nobody murdered Noye's wife. The Noye who stole the Annorax was never married. We don't actually know if Clauda lives in the new timeline, whether she was assimilated by the borg or is with the sphere builders in their subspace whatever, but either way Noye obviously never met her.
Noye suffered a breakdown as a result of learning about an alternate timeline in which he would've been married, and that the Annorax project changed that timeline. We can hope that future temporal research organizations learned their lesson and perform better screening to ensure their employees are psychologically capable of handling such revelations.
I feel most of @patrickngo 's issues are with the nebulous nature of Temporal Affairs and their inability (or refusal) to be forthcoming with how they determine what temporal shenanigans they support, and those they "correct". Everything we see as players tend to be on the self-serving side. This is fine, but presents an unbalanced view of what Temporal Affairs larger purpose is supposed to be: Preventing the galaxy from sliding into chaos due to weaponizing time or correcting accidental temporal mishap.
The only "temporal shenanigans" they logically should support are the ones who's outcomes they have already experienced and therefore know. Known timeline vs rolling the dice on the unknown. But we don't see much of their organizational structure...then again, we don't see much of the organizational structure of anyone else, either.
Personally, I was disappointed with the reveal of Noye as The Envoy. I think it would've been much more interesting if The Envoy had turned out to be Daniels, or even Mirror Daniels.
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Personally, I was disappointed with the reveal of Noye as The Envoy. I think it would've been much more interesting if The Envoy had turned out to be Daniels, or even Mirror Daniels.
Perhaps. Noye does seem rather too crazy and fanatic to attract such a diverse group of allies. I mean, the na'kuhl could've gone along with it. Their temporal temper tantrum was every bit as irrational as Noye's quest to...do whatever it was he hoped to accomplish. But the others should really have known better.
Especially the sphere builders, who were otherwise smart enough to conduct their dangerous experiments in alternate universes rather than risk their own.
> @warpangel said: > Perhaps. Noye does seem rather too crazy and fanatic to attract such a diverse group of allies. I mean, the na'kuhl could've gone along with it. Their temporal temper tantrum was every bit as irrational as Noye's quest to...do whatever it was he hoped to accomplish. But the others should really have known better.
I'm curious why you think the Na'Kuhl wanting their darn planet back after losing it in an unprovoked genocide by time travelers is irrational.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm curious why you think the Na'Kuhl wanting their darn planet back after losing it in an unprovoked genocide by time travelers is irrational.
Attacking random people doesn't get their planet back. Had they attempted to alter the events of Sunrise/Stormbound or chase down the Tox or other technologies to fix the star with, that would have been understandable.
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I disagree with "skipping it", but your question is a legitimate one. As a Fed, I would thaw them out....or ensure a stable long term solution for those that could not be revived for whatever reason...and then they would be held as Prisoners of War until either hostilities ended or they were paroled or properly exchanged under the relevant Federation Law and Treaties the Federation is signatory of. Gaul (or Eldex if Gaul was dead), as the leader of the Varduuar State, would be duly provided a list of the survivors held, and the bodies of any who died in the interim.
If some or all of them applied for Refugee status...and not a few Varduaar were fed up with the fighting and just wanted to start over...that would be a matter for the Federation Government to decide, not Starfleet.
The Republic would likely do something similar....what the KDF would do would be interesting, given their views on being prisoner. I would imagine they would be thawed and dumped in one of their Gulags for the duration.
I would be disgusted by what the Kobali are doing to dead humans (like Harry Kim), but that is something I would leave to Starfleet Command and the Okeg Administration to deal with as they saw fit. Realistically, any competent PR firm in Federation Space could get them all the volunteers than they could process.
As an aside. If I were a Ferengi, I'd try to get a hold of the virus they use for that process and make a absolute fortune selling it to humans wanting to extend their lifespans.....since humans seem to survive Kobalification with their memories intact they would be a prime market for it.
As far as the Varduaar's actions.....I would be obliged to stop them from deploying the Kobali killer agent, but I would refuse to help them reverse the vaccine the Varduaar were using to prevent Kobalification of their own dead...that is just plain vile.
The TLF's motivations were quite clear.
Noye( The Envoy) wanted revenge for his wife(and unborn child) being deleted from the timestream, he also blamed the Federation for the near destruction of the Krenim by the Iconian's Varduaar proxies. He and many of his own followers wanted a new Krenim Empire as well....but that wasn't the main motivation.
Mirror Leeta was paid by Noye to help, but undoubtedly was using the Krenim as Useful Idiots™ to aid her own schemes.
Boratus and his Vorgon contingent were butt-hurt because the player kicked his tail and wasted his sister when they tried to steal the Tox Uthat to sell to the highest bidder.
The Solenae are the Tuterians. They want to destroy the Federation because Noye told them they were responsible for their predicament....and no doubt omitted to mention his role in the timeline alterations that led to their destruction at the hands of the Borg. (the incursion intended to delay the return of the Iconians and restore Romulus also resulted in the Assimilation of most of the Tuterians, whose tech enabled the Borg to Assimilate Romulus...IMO the timeline's way of correcting itself as apparently Romulus was destined to be destroyed one way or another)
The Na'Kuhl wanted revenge as well, blaming the Federation for the loss of their homeworld. That would be a lot more justifiable, however, if the reason the Tholians destroyed Na'Kuhl's star hadn't been to get revenge for the wholly unprovoked mass murder of a Tholian Colony Fleet in the 23rd Century.....intended by the Na'Kuhl as a False Flag event to frame the Federation and lock them in a ruinous war with the Tholian Assembly. It's part of the AoY storyline....it failed miserably because the player buys the Queen enough time to notify the Assembly who the real culprits are. It's also tied to the Tholians attacking and disabling Enterprise in ENT to get Kal Dano's ship, but the reasons for that aren't explained anywhere to my knowledge. I would guess the 28th or 31st Century Tholians were in contact with their 22nd, 23rd, and 25th century ancestors to arrange their revenge.
All of the above is related to the player going back to the distant past and saving the Iconians, then returning to resolve the loop in Midnight. Apparantly Procyon V resolves a second loop as well, as hinted by one of the blogs. I wonder what originally happened to make that first trip happen and establish the loop.
My character Tsin'xing
We don't know, really. As far as I can tell, there are at least two major time loops in play, and quite likely a third, if not more. Unless Cryptic chooses to explain it (for example, a timeline of the ur-timeline, the way things were until people started meddling with it), we have no idea what the goals and motivations of Daniels and his associates are. You choose to believe it's some malign plot by future Feds to conquer all known space...but I'm not convinced. I believe it's more likely someone messed with time and really screwed things up, and the future's efforts are directed to trying to undo as much of the damage as possible. The blog I linked to previously makes it clear that at some point the Federation either fixed the Na'Kuhl's home star or engineered things so that it was never lost in the first place.
In a way, this reminds me of the overarching plot of the Metal Gear series. In my MGS4 Player Guide, they explain the whole plot of the series and reveal that the true protagonist of the series was Ocelot, who sacrificed everything he cared about, and his reputation, and in the end his life, to free the world from the Patriots. Laid out in print, I could (barely) get a grip on it, but it made my head hurt, just as the temporal shenanigans in STO make my head hurt. Until Cryptic sees fit to explain what actually happened, all we can do is speculate, based on what pieces of the puzzle we have, and our own biases.
Personally, I doubt that Cryptic would pull a "good guys are really the bad guys" plot twist on something this big, but of course I could be wrong.
And Kal Dano wasn't the first cause. He was responding to the tholians messing with the Lukari star. Which they likely were doing with the express purpose of attracting someone from the future to reverse it so they could steal the device. The tholians are time-active.
What the tholians actually wanted with the Tox Uthat we don't know. Destroying the Na'kuhl star they could've easily accomplished even with 24th century tech.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
And as said, the tholians totally could've blown up the na'kuhl even without the Tox.
> Incorrect as usual.
And I assume you have a clear and well-thought-out argument to back up that statement?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
'Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I-I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women, er, women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Let's take Temporal Affairs mission statement at face value, for the moment. If anyone can alter the timeline, the end result is a galaxy in chaos as various species use time as a weapon against each other. In addition, there are instances where groups or individuals alter time by accident. To maintain stability for the majority, temporal tampering is outlawed. Having said that, in order to have "time cops" you MUST insure a timeline that leads to the creation of said "time cops". Temporal Affairs is both self-serving and practical in this way. I enjoy the moral greyness.
It's a shame they murdered Noye's wife and undercut his stance. There was plenty of good motivation over "who should police time?" and "who watches the watchers?". Temporal Affairs, by it's very nature, must stand outside most systems of law. There is plenty of good "food for thought" that could have been presented, or even debated. Who oversee's Temporal Affairs? Is there some level of transparency for the citizens of the galaxy as to the standards and practices of Temporal Affairs? Did Temporal Affairs even try, or do they just say "this is for the good of the majority" and we take them at their word? What systems are in place to prevent abuse of power within Temporal Affairs?
I feel most of @patrickngo 's issues are with the nebulous nature of Temporal Affairs and their inability (or refusal) to be forthcoming with how they determine what temporal shenanigans they support, and those they "correct". Everything we see as players tend to be on the self-serving side. This is fine, but presents an unbalanced view of what Temporal Affairs larger purpose is supposed to be: Preventing the galaxy from sliding into chaos due to weaponizing time or correcting accidental temporal mishap.
But that's what's called a Grandfather Paradox. You CAN'T stop Noye from stealing the Annorax, because then he won't attack the conference with it and you won't know you have to stop him from stealing the Annorax in the first place.
There is no moral greyness. The only timeline you can know the outcome of is the one you have lived. Stopping irresponsible fools from gambling with the very existence of everything anyone has ever known is very much of the good.
Nobody murdered Noye's wife. The Noye who stole the Annorax was never married. We don't actually know if Clauda lives in the new timeline, whether she was assimilated by the borg or is with the sphere builders in their subspace whatever, but either way Noye obviously never met her.
Noye suffered a breakdown as a result of learning about an alternate timeline in which he would've been married, and that the Annorax project changed that timeline. We can hope that future temporal research organizations learned their lesson and perform better screening to ensure their employees are psychologically capable of handling such revelations.
The only "temporal shenanigans" they logically should support are the ones who's outcomes they have already experienced and therefore know. Known timeline vs rolling the dice on the unknown. But we don't see much of their organizational structure...then again, we don't see much of the organizational structure of anyone else, either.
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Especially the sphere builders, who were otherwise smart enough to conduct their dangerous experiments in alternate universes rather than risk their own.
> Perhaps. Noye does seem rather too crazy and fanatic to attract such a diverse group of allies. I mean, the na'kuhl could've gone along with it. Their temporal temper tantrum was every bit as irrational as Noye's quest to...do whatever it was he hoped to accomplish. But the others should really have known better.
I'm curious why you think the Na'Kuhl wanting their darn planet back after losing it in an unprovoked genocide by time travelers is irrational.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/