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Ground/Space DPS out of control
bindingchains
Member Posts: 88 Arc User
Until sometime ago ground was actually fun to play, people couldnt inflict massive damage like o space missions and most Elite stfs actually required team work to beat. All that is gone due to modules that have just way too much synergy. Now every player is a walking nuke with pulling modules combined with massive area damage modules.. ground used to be fun but its completely boring now, everybody pretends to be Rambo packing and nuking every mob pack through the maps.
Seriously Cryptic, its time to rework those modules, ground has become what space is for years now, BORING. Nobody gives a TRIBBLE about defensive builds, support builds.. the team work now reads: "pack and nuke everything". I really like this game but both ground and space PvE feels dead, every team is the same, walking nukes that just run on their own shooting stuff and killing packs of 20 enemies in a fraction of second, there is hardly anything left of "team work" in Star Trek Online now.
Seriously Cryptic, its time to rework those modules, ground has become what space is for years now, BORING. Nobody gives a TRIBBLE about defensive builds, support builds.. the team work now reads: "pack and nuke everything". I really like this game but both ground and space PvE feels dead, every team is the same, walking nukes that just run on their own shooting stuff and killing packs of 20 enemies in a fraction of second, there is hardly anything left of "team work" in Star Trek Online now.
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Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Pull foes together AND drop resistances sounds like Sci toon stuff.. Graviton Spike (a Tac Ability) does pull foes together but does not lower resistances (but other tac abilities do this part).
Honestly it sounds like you were around 1 or more of the upper end DPSers and most people struggle to do DPS in this game. 12% of players can do 50k dps in space..That number drops to around 2% at 100k.
I have no idea what Adv PVE ground numbers should look like..
Certain maps are used for DPS testing and that increases the number of "nukers" But they generally are the exception not the rule in this game.
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Were still not back to to where we were pre-season 13...(500-600k dps in ISA yet :P) and only 25 players in the game at Just over 200kdps.
I dunno that Sci is king...Certainly competitive on ground. Top 10 NTTE and BHE runs still have more Tac or Eng than Sci (Looking at SCM). Its Certainly difficult to get around a Good Sci toon in PVP (Ground) but its doable in both Eng (Requires more Universal kits) and Tac toons.
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Im mean..Sure you can say "I think we.." but then wheres the proof?
Mine was based on the the current records using SCM and CLR parsers, CLR actually has season 9 through current Season 14 ISA records...which is why I say.."Im just not seeing it"...(Keep in mind I also regularly played on my Sci and Eng toon over my Tac since season 11.5)
Granted for ground DPS on BHE,NTTE or DRE...I have no frame of reference for top number previous to season 13 as I never looked at parses those until after (and those records weren't saved with CLR).
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Space was nerfed big time but I have to agree that even on Elite ground is way too easy. With all of those universal modules now all you have to do is bring them together in the certain and nuke'em like crazy. 1 shot of the second attack of the Herald antiproton staff and then all you have to do is spam the standard attack. 5 seconds later they're all dead. Rinse and repeat.
Challenge yourself: QUIT using those modules.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Done some research and explored some builds both space and ground.
In comparison to S12 (which had some really broken balance-wise metas) things are pretty much fixed.
S12 had tacs as the go-to option for anything and circled around proccing Plasma Sci consoles and reflecting back more damage than getting in. Both were breaking the game and the meaning of the game mechanics.
Groundwise S12 had a tac-house with weapon enhancement modules exclusively and made sci and eng some lateral classes. S12 left alot of tac characters in the game database, which has some consequences on the whole game balance.
In S14, the Eng and Sci have made a comeback both on ground and space, the gameplay options became way more. It's all way more varied and when crunching numbers, things are visibly improved.
The Sci and Eng became very powerful on the ground whilst the Tac weapon-buff-nuke tactics were replaced by specific skill-nuke usage which represented an improvement.
Now the CRF builds have alot of teeth, cannons, dual cannons and dual heavy cannons really became viable via CSV/CRF with balanced numbers, but requiring specific setup and playstyle.
The FAW builds were brought back to being on a competitive line with everything else and still favor a go-to option if you can't pilot and place yourself really good.
The Exotic builds are BEASTS if you can manage them and use them well.
At the moment the game is as balanced as it has ever been and the design team deserves a round of applause for the efforts. I'm sure there's plenty of work to do, but now it stimulates people to experiment and surprisingly well, it delivers a good trekking experience, as long as you have realistic expectations and learn to enjoy the content in a mature manner.
We still need to improve our gameplay-manners, but we seem to be hitting a wave peak here. Let people come, tell your friends that this game sucks and that they should come and see how bad it is. I'm sure they'll like it. It's way more catchy and more accesible to new players as well as still enjoyable to people running STO for some time (subjectively speaking).
I think we've come a long way and I hope STO keeps on following this trend.
The fact that the records for space are around 300k dps and for ground at ...5k dps (?) does not mean that this is the typical dps powercreep.
Those records are realised on very well timed and coordinated runs where four individuals support/debuff/buff as a single individual is seeking to dish out the highest DPS average over the shortest span of time.
This does not reflect the general state of the gameplay results. I'll relate to the space part now, since it is easier to exemplify.
The average Public User Group (PUG) is around 20k when they participate. The record is around 300k (Felisean tops as a cherry with 359k, but that's a very min-maxed run). I, as a PUG user and channel run user that pretty much has a clue and some acceptable gear... Touch the mark of 100k dps with BFAW/CSV/CRF setups with Disruptors/Phasers/Plasma/Polaron. Antiproton is a challenge to me. And I don't bother with Tetryon since it feels like abandon-ware by design for PvE. It's approachable, but that's the top ceiling for a average-competent user. I topped a 125k run with Coalition disruptors and some exceptional piloting and team-synergy (Not a pre-made run, but a great team in a run). But that's edgy already.
It is not a good idea to cater the numbers to the top 3%, When those capable players get gimped, the rest of the game-horde are nerfed to death and the game is unplayable. The majority of players, looking at the average can complete Advanced content without failing optionals and without really effortless mashing buttons while watching a movie on a sidescreen.
The subjective ideas posted and shouted aren't always reflecting the reality of the gameplay. That is a fact to face and it improves your view alot upon the realities of the game you enjoy playing, instead of always dissing out the work which steadily improves this game. (and makes it buyable - because someone needs to pay up for everyone to enjoy this gameplay experience).
Hope this helps mature fellas into getting a better glimpse into this DPS-out-of-control rant resulting from dps-envy and the refusal to display parse results when they get topped in ISA.
As it's been stated several times before, looking at top 1% or even top 10% DPS bracket instead of the average will give you very false picture as to how things are.
Although not all builds have increased on the whole I agree with Coldnapalm. Average power level is through the roof. While SCM is useful its only a tiny snapshot of the player base. Take myself as an example some of my builds do well over100k DPS yet my top score in ISA via SCM is under 100k. I have not uploaded ISA runs in years and last time I looked there was 1 upload 1 year ago that someone else did.
Although the thread title is about DPS to me the problem is more about Power level which is not just pure DPS. Take my ENG ground build it heals something silly like 100 HP per sec passively (Shield/life combined). Its walking though ground content practically invincible without a care in the world. In my case ground SCM DPS charts won’t show any noticeable change even though power level has shot through the roof. Before ground used to be tactical, now due to power level increase I just run around into large groups of NPC's dropping AoE explosions without thinking. While I find this fun, I have to admit its a bit out of control.
Another example of power level increase. When the ground arena event first came out 2000 damage used to kill most players. Now you often see players throwing off that 2000 damage like it’s nothing. This is ground we are talking about, a few years back 2000 damage on players was unthinkable. When the arena first came out the idea was to avoid getting hit, now we just stand there and ignore it. EDIT: Not only taking 2000 damage and staying alive, but healing back to 100% passively without even doing anything.
The same applies to space. My DPS is pretty much the same as before but the time it takes to kill NPC’s is x3 to x4 time faster now, example my current 50k DPS can kill many targets faster than my old 100k DPS build. My power level has around about tripled. SCM won’t show this as A, I have not uploaded ISA runs in over a year, B, even if I did upload to SCM it doesn’t show the x3 to x4 increase in power of my build. Not only am I killing far faster but my tank power is way stronger at around 70% hull resistance.
So we did 7 million more damage than listed and almost 10k less per player then what the stated minimum was.
As long as no one messes up on the probes 20k DPS seems to be enough.
Premade/Channel run - The first cube pops after a 5 count and its spheres are cleared within a few seconds. Then the whole team flies top speed to the left tranformer, vaping the cube and clearing out the generators, transformer, clearing probes, passing from left to right through the sphere group and repeating the process on the right side. One of the wiser guys throws the Sensor Taunt from the Ico Reputation between the Tac Cube and the Gateway. People heal each other and threat swapping is common. Gateway pops and everyone focuses the Tac cube. Every borg on the map has been cleared and the reward is claimed. Parses are shown and the lowest dps there is in the range of 30k dps.
Good PUG run/Mark run - The first cube pops as everyone jumps in without any count, spheres shortly follow and the whole team jumps in to the left side with an acceptable damage focusing on the transformer. The cube obviously gets killed in the process. Then Left-to-right it goes, focusing on the Right side transformer/cube in a haste. Team members keep an eye on their teammates hull level and throw in a heal occasionally. The gate is then targeted, taken down and then the Tac cube. Someone requests a parse and someone shows up the numbers. Lowest dps there can range to 20k.
Garbage PUG-Fail run - The first cube doesn't pop yet, one tries to carry, takes it down. Its spheres remain there while the team is in disarray and the top tier people who jump to the transformer don't have any available targets because... after clearing the spheres, the cube/transformer combo on the left is a trial of patience. The cube gets killed and nobody clears generators, everyone attemps to vape the transformer. Meanwhile the Nanite Spheres are coming (nobody uses CC). Depending on the ability of the players who tries to carry, the transformer dies before failing the opt. Nanite group is barely killed and potentially the guy who carries the team dies because grabbing threat alone due to decent dps is an issue. If he doesn't die yet, the right transformer is the same effort to lead the event to success. Changes to have your carrying-player dead as you're mesmerized by the fact that HP bar drops as you save heals for yourself. If the guy dies, failed opt and this is bad even for a mark-run. If the carrying dude manages to kill the 2nd nanite group along with the team, there is a chance. Then gateway gets attacked as one or two random smart-players pull the tactical cube away from the gateway, to break the gameplay experience even more. With heavy efforts, platform deployment, heals and alot of prayers, the gateway dies (out of mercy and compassion for the guy carrying the run). Everyone focuses the tac cube and after another power grind takes the tac cube down. A random sphere wasn't killed so it breaks your parse numbers even more. Someone returns and kills it. The guys get rewards and someone asks for a parse. The randoms watch the parse and see that they're not on first place, therefore aren't answering or showing parse in chat and leaving the instance.
If in the 3rd scenario, you're not the carrying guy, you should probably be seeking to improve your build and playstyle instead of babbling on the forum about dps being out of hand and how dps-chasing people are bad and "I got pillow phasers cause I play for fun".
Seek for an ISA walkthrough. The STO dps league has all the resources you need.
Learn to put a build together. Even budget-wise.
Don't be afraid to heal your teammates.
Throw in the parse at the end.
Be a good sport.