The Tholian would likely never work with anyone; they're too xenomorphic, and an alliance between the Romulan and Breen? It's been hinted at on Trek that there's mistrust there, especially from the Romulan perspective.
One of the things the Founders promised to give the Breen as a reward for their participation in the Dominion war was Romulus itself. Why? so they could have the Romulans as slaves.
Honestly, even if we pretend I have all the resources and freedoms to "do it right" I still would have stuck to Federation/Klingon as the two factions (assuming for the sake of the discussion you have to have two factions). If the Romulan Republic is any indication, it is clear the community would rather have a "Faction done right" rather then a "coalition" faction, such as "Alpha Quadrant Powers" (and yes I know technically the Klingon and Romulan Empires are in the Beta Quadrant
So basically you are going to have to choose between Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Dominion, or "Other". The fact is, the two most popular factions, therefore the two most likely to be a success, are Federation and Klingon. So I really wouldn't have done too much different. Even with hindsight.
but, doing it "Right" requires more resources than Cryptic had, has, or will ever have. Significantly more resources. One of the main problems is a chicken/egg scenario in which "KDF is unprofitable", (at 20% of the playerbase) so the developers stopped developing it for two and a half, almost three years, and even after that moratorium, all development since has been done 'off the books' in someone at cryptic's free time, while faction elements have been steadily transferred to Federation players as filler to keep offering them new things even when the devs can't spare the time to make them new things.
Essentially it's the problem of finite resources. Feds got Carriers, because the Devs needed a shiny new mechanic to keep them interested, they got Battlecruisers the same way, and Raiders. In the meantime they also got every "Good" console the KDF had delivered via Lockbox, until unique KDF consoles were exhausted. the Ship Traits were left broken until it was necessary to offer them via Dilithium Store to keep Fed players engaged. (and one of them still doesn't work.)
The pattern is because of resources. There aren't enough dollars to pay for more than one faction. "Doing it right" jsut means making the same exact compromises a few months to a year later than Cryptic already did.
Which is why I made the caveat that there were assumptions that needed to be made in some faction. The fact is, if we are assuming everything is as it was at the beginning, I would do one of two things. either a) ditch the second faction idea all together and just do the Federation, or b) scrap the whole idea entirely and not make the game in the first place. People tend to either not remember or forget the time/resource crunch Cryptic was on when the took on the game. No matter how you try to spin it, they didn't have the time they should have to develop the game before launch and were contractually obligated to stick to a release date forced on them.
But that isn't even the point of this thread. The thread asks a question in a way that assumes you have the freedom Cryptic did not. So I made assumptions that I have the money and resources to make the game cryptic could not. At which point, from a Faction perspective, I would not have changed anything. Federation and Klingon Empire are the two most popular factions in Star Trek. Everything else comes after that. So from a pure business perspective, it makes sense to use the two most popular.
Cruisers, Escorts and, most importantly, science ships.
Yup...only Science ship the KDF had was a c-store one and it was worse than the worst free Fed Science ship. (Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to see why it didn't sell well)
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
rather there be no factions... you can shoot anyone and suffer the consequences. I was suprised when I first played the game... sector space is a total waste of space... thought you could fight in it with Fed vs Klin with the restricted space boarders... nope nothing. would make sense if during the war period, as klingon you raided the freighters in space in Fed space.
Honestly, even if we pretend I have all the resources and freedoms to "do it right" I still would have stuck to Federation/Klingon as the two factions (assuming for the sake of the discussion you have to have two factions). If the Romulan Republic is any indication, it is clear the community would rather have a "Faction done right" rather then a "coalition" faction, such as "Alpha Quadrant Powers" (and yes I know technically the Klingon and Romulan Empires are in the Beta Quadrant
So basically you are going to have to choose between Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Dominion, or "Other". The fact is, the two most popular factions, therefore the two most likely to be a success, are Federation and Klingon. So I really wouldn't have done too much different. Even with hindsight.
but, doing it "Right" requires more resources than Cryptic had, has, or will ever have. Significantly more resources. One of the main problems is a chicken/egg scenario in which "KDF is unprofitable", (at 20% of the playerbase) so the developers stopped developing it for two and a half, almost three years, and even after that moratorium, all development since has been done 'off the books' in someone at cryptic's free time, while faction elements have been steadily transferred to Federation players as filler to keep offering them new things even when the devs can't spare the time to make them new things.
Essentially it's the problem of finite resources. Feds got Carriers, because the Devs needed a shiny new mechanic to keep them interested, they got Battlecruisers the same way, and Raiders. In the meantime they also got every "Good" console the KDF had delivered via Lockbox, until unique KDF consoles were exhausted. the Ship Traits were left broken until it was necessary to offer them via Dilithium Store to keep Fed players engaged. (and one of them still doesn't work.)
The pattern is because of resources. There aren't enough dollars to pay for more than one faction. "Doing it right" jsut means making the same exact compromises a few months to a year later than Cryptic already did.
Which is why I made the caveat that there were assumptions that needed to be made in some faction. The fact is, if we are assuming everything is as it was at the beginning, I would do one of two things. either a) ditch the second faction idea all together and just do the Federation, or b) scrap the whole idea entirely and not make the game in the first place. People tend to either not remember or forget the time/resource crunch Cryptic was on when the took on the game. No matter how you try to spin it, they didn't have the time they should have to develop the game before launch and were contractually obligated to stick to a release date forced on them.
But that isn't even the point of this thread. The thread asks a question in a way that assumes you have the freedom Cryptic did not. So I made assumptions that I have the money and resources to make the game cryptic could not. At which point, from a Faction perspective, I would not have changed anything. Federation and Klingon Empire are the two most popular factions in Star Trek. Everything else comes after that. So from a pure business perspective, it makes sense to use the two most popular.
well, removing the resource crunch and starting with the contract Cryptic had for the launch...
Have to agree, the Klingons are the most-developed 'non-federation' culture in the property (prior to having that development paved over by Disco), and it's possible to extrapolate off the structural balance they began with, even to the point of actually exploiting the concept used to excuse the lack of initial KDF development.
Just, yanno, with enough money to give players a few branching options that make having a faction relevant.
A couple changes would be to set up any additional (non-Fed) factions to have aspects that play differently-not so much 'singularitypowerz" which is notable for not being a thing that happened again, but more along the lines of granting a different perspective on the same universe-controlling events, even to the point of making choices actually matter and giving a bit more emphasis and agency.
Basically, I'd design the "Trunk" storyline, which we're all familiar with, but I'd have 'branches' built onto it, so that progression might actually BE very different to get to the same endpoints.
Basically, while your Fed character is running around under Drozana, your Klingon is pursuing the Fek'Ihri's depredations and conversing with Kahless, while uncovering hints of some machiavellian external force.
While the Federation player is going to go schlep water for Bajor and th e Cardassian client state, THAT is when the Klingon is working the Deferi war with the breen. End both with the meeting that leads to the 2800 series. After dealing with the Dominions's leftovers. Maybe toss in some missions showing that "Yes, folks, we're still in a cold war here." after the fight with the 2800.
drags us into the Romulan storyline, but from (again) different angles-Feds get to work things with D'Tan, Klingons end up supporting Obisek directly since Klingons, unlike the Federation, don't have a "Prime Directive" beyond enhancing the prestige and power of the Empire.
And, y'know, pre-alliance Romulans are p'taqs anyway.
First Tie-together for all three factions comes with reveals tailored to fit each faction's own interests here, and make the conference have some juice beyond sympathy.
Branch there could have a choice of following the Fed line, or going after Sela's remnant and uncovering different information.
toss in lots of little conflicts of interest and moral choices for KDF players and a stat bar covering the three Klingon 'Values' that impacts how NPC's interact with you, or what missions you're offered in a given storyline, even down to changing what 'random events' you run into in patrol zones..
On the Klingon side, have a series of 'events' unlock and options for alignment, make your Klingon's politics mean something-and that iin turn gets tied to a PvP series of missions/wrappers/queues-for-record that impact some of the game's economic ecology (as such things wOULD impact an alliance that's on shaky ground.)
Throw in periodic 'civil wars' among the Klingons between main storylines (for skillpoint development) and mission content where Cloaking is actually USEFUL (provides an alternate ending, or a slightly different bit of kit for rewards, or opens different pathways like a choose-your-own-adventure novel.)
of course, they all wind up coming back together, but at that point, max-level characters have strongly different stories and backgrounds with different unlocks and different stories to be told.
Lots of people have discussed the idea of "Branch" stories. While I would love to see certain events referenced in other factions (why is there no mention on the Klingon side of B'vat suddenly "disappearing"), if I understand what you are saying, true branching storylines are rather tricky even with "unlimited" resources. The problem is because of the linear nature of the game, there is only so much you can change and still get to point B. Which you have to do, to get to point C, etc.
The fact is, branching storylines that actually matter really aren't possible in game, In the end it ends up being more flavor text more then anything (not that a little more of that in STO would be a bad thing). In the end, your decisions really don't matter because ultimately, you still get to Point B.
Otherwise, I agree that it would have been great if Cryptic could have fleshed out the Klingons more. What we eventually ended up with was done well, but it wasn't nearly as developed and fleshed out as the Federation side was. I don't know that I would go full on "Civil War" with the Klingon side. For one thing, that is kind of what we are trying to avoid in the beginning story, but two I just don't think it would make sense to have the Empire actively fighting against itself when you have the Undine running around. Though, we know the Great Houses never really do get along, so I little "politics" would be neat to explore.
Some form of Federation + Romulan Republic + Klingon Empire vs Terran Empire + Tal Shiar + House Duras setup. This would have, I feel, greatly helped with keeping faction numbers more balanced, with the choices essentially just being the typical good vs evil.
The fact is, branching storylines that actually matter really aren't possible in game, In the end it ends up being more flavor text more then anything (not that a little more of that in STO would be a bad thing). In the end, your decisions really don't matter because ultimately, you still get to Point B.
Yeah, no MMO has ever done it and even the big name story focused games tend to shy way from it.
The fact is, branching storylines that actually matter really aren't possible in game, In the end it ends up being more flavor text more then anything (not that a little more of that in STO would be a bad thing). In the end, your decisions really don't matter because ultimately, you still get to Point B.
Yeah, no MMO has ever done it and even the big name story focused games tend to shy way from it.
Hey, did I SAY it was practical? NO. this is a fantasy/speculation thread, not laying down a hard plan for something that would actually make money.
Well, yes and no. While yes, there is speculation in the thread, it is kind of a "if you could do it all again what would you do". So while it is fine to "dream big", I likewise don't see a problem with pointing out when an idea is impractical, even in most hypothetical situations.
Which is why I am not a fan of Branch storylines, it just isn't practical. The closest game I have ever played that came to it was SWTOR. Which well does have some storyline changes to it based on your decisions, those changes are all superficial. Even then, no real meaningful difference occurs when you make one decision over another. It just isn't practical in an MMO, which by nature needs a continuous story.
> @sophlogimo said: > As much as I love to play my RRF and KDF characters: One. > > Just one faction, with builtin options for various origin stories. Storytelling gets so much easier with just one faction.
In hind sight so much this, but to expand on it, I'd have one faction with subfactions, but again hind sight is 20/20.
As much as I enjoy playing my Romulan Engineer, I think this game would be much further along and much more polished with far fewer problems had the only faction option been playing as Starfleet. I actually prefer playing my Romulan over all my other characters, too.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
As much as I enjoy playing my Romulan Engineer, I think this game would be much further along and much more polished with far fewer problems had the only faction option been playing as Starfleet. I actually prefer playing my Romulan over all my other characters, too.
The problem isn't multiple factions, the problem is they don't give a damn about any other faction than Feds...they never gave KDF attention till it was far to late and Romulans were a project and once the Scimitar was launched they basically stopped giving a care about it.
A lot of popular MMOs out there are multi-faction MMOs and they do fine? You know why? They don't treat one faction like their favorite child and the others like red-headed step children and make it obvious that if you aren't the golden child you're almost worthless to them.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Thing is there's nothing about KDF which even remotely interests me, sure there's one alien in it I like but they were never really allied to KDF in the canon anyway.
The problem isn't multiple factions, the problem is they don't give a damn about any other faction than Feds...they never gave KDF attention till it was far to late and Romulans were a project and once the Scimitar was launched they basically stopped giving a care about it.
A lot of popular MMOs out there are multi-faction MMOs and they do fine? You know why? They don't treat one faction like their favorite child and the others like red-headed step children and make it obvious that if you aren't the golden child you're almost worthless to them.
Ok, you lot are getting way off the subject and debating things the OP has already conceded. The topic is speculating and opinions on which Factions you WOULD HAVE done if it were up to you, not rehashing Cryptic's real world limitations with why they did it the way they did. So, stick to the opinion solicitation topic, or start a new thread for your debate.
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I'd have feds vs a romulan/klingon alliance. Though keep the latter two as separate factions of course, and ignore the whole Nero thing so we got more traditional romulans (though to be fair we only ever saw the Imperial Navy).
Oh and I'd go with Flash regarding ship styles.
The Borg thing was indeed, "play our way or the Doctor gets it". They did actually try and assimilate the crew on the cube as well, in a manner of speaking as they were going to forcibly hook them up to the collective "for efficiency".
If could go back in time and choose anything, to be honest the two factions I'd choose would be the Khitomer Accord Signatories vs the Typhon Pact
Game based around those factions from the books I think would have been more interesting and diverse.
The Typhon Pact is stupid, and the idea that the Tholian of all races would suggest, let alone join, a group like that is nonsense.
You might want to check your facts on that. The Tholians are stated in canon to have diplomatic presences on both Earth (the Tholian ambassador is assassinated by a changeling in "Home Front") and Romulus (Tal'aura used a meeting with the Tholian ambassador to get out of the Senate before her bomb went off in Nemesis).
The Tholian would likely never work with anyone; they're too xenomorphic, and an alliance between the Romulan and Breen? It's been hinted at on Trek that there's mistrust there, especially from the Romulan perspective.
One of the things the Founders promised to give the Breen as a reward for their participation in the Dominion war was Romulus itself. Why? so they could have the Romulans as slaves.
That particular one is easy enough to handwave away: the Breen are a confederacy, i.e. a union of semi-autonomous states even less centralized than, well, a federation. So, the people who made the alliance with the Dominion are not the same people who are in power in Breen space now (much as the Romulans themselves go through changes of government every once in a while: one such change led to Shinzon's exile to Remus).
Also the Typhon Pact makes a whole lot of sense in one particular way. Its signatories have one significant interest in common, and that's that they all have a bone to pick with one or both of the Khitomer Accords' primary signatories. The Kinshaya hate the Klingons for glassing their homeworld, the Tzenkethi view the Federation as a threat due to their history (Sisko and Admiral Leyton fought the Tzenkethi in a previous war), and the Romulans hate both of them. The Typhon Pact is also played fairly realistically in that, since their common enemy is the really only thing they have in common, the alliance is far from stable: in contrast to the Federation-Klingon postwar relationship being much more solid than it is in STO, the Typhon Pact signatories spend almost as much time trying to put one over on their "allies" as they do acting as the Warsaw Pact to the Khitomer Accords' NATO.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Which is why I made the caveat that there were assumptions that needed to be made in some faction. The fact is, if we are assuming everything is as it was at the beginning, I would do one of two things. either a) ditch the second faction idea all together and just do the Federation, or b) scrap the whole idea entirely and not make the game in the first place. People tend to either not remember or forget the time/resource crunch Cryptic was on when the took on the game. No matter how you try to spin it, they didn't have the time they should have to develop the game before launch and were contractually obligated to stick to a release date forced on them.
But that isn't even the point of this thread. The thread asks a question in a way that assumes you have the freedom Cryptic did not. So I made assumptions that I have the money and resources to make the game cryptic could not. At which point, from a Faction perspective, I would not have changed anything. Federation and Klingon Empire are the two most popular factions in Star Trek. Everything else comes after that. So from a pure business perspective, it makes sense to use the two most popular.
Yup...only Science ship the KDF had was a c-store one and it was worse than the worst free Fed Science ship. (Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to see why it didn't sell well)
Lots of people have discussed the idea of "Branch" stories. While I would love to see certain events referenced in other factions (why is there no mention on the Klingon side of B'vat suddenly "disappearing"), if I understand what you are saying, true branching storylines are rather tricky even with "unlimited" resources. The problem is because of the linear nature of the game, there is only so much you can change and still get to point B. Which you have to do, to get to point C, etc.
The fact is, branching storylines that actually matter really aren't possible in game, In the end it ends up being more flavor text more then anything (not that a little more of that in STO would be a bad thing). In the end, your decisions really don't matter because ultimately, you still get to Point B.
Otherwise, I agree that it would have been great if Cryptic could have fleshed out the Klingons more. What we eventually ended up with was done well, but it wasn't nearly as developed and fleshed out as the Federation side was. I don't know that I would go full on "Civil War" with the Klingon side. For one thing, that is kind of what we are trying to avoid in the beginning story, but two I just don't think it would make sense to have the Empire actively fighting against itself when you have the Undine running around. Though, we know the Great Houses never really do get along, so I little "politics" would be neat to explore.
My character Tsin'xing
Well, yes and no. While yes, there is speculation in the thread, it is kind of a "if you could do it all again what would you do". So while it is fine to "dream big", I likewise don't see a problem with pointing out when an idea is impractical, even in most hypothetical situations.
Which is why I am not a fan of Branch storylines, it just isn't practical. The closest game I have ever played that came to it was SWTOR. Which well does have some storyline changes to it based on your decisions, those changes are all superficial. Even then, no real meaningful difference occurs when you make one decision over another. It just isn't practical in an MMO, which by nature needs a continuous story.
> As much as I love to play my RRF and KDF characters: One.
>
> Just one faction, with builtin options for various origin stories. Storytelling gets so much easier with just one faction.
In hind sight so much this, but to expand on it, I'd have one faction with subfactions, but again hind sight is 20/20.
What we have isn't bad.
The problem isn't multiple factions, the problem is they don't give a damn about any other faction than Feds...they never gave KDF attention till it was far to late and Romulans were a project and once the Scimitar was launched they basically stopped giving a care about it.
A lot of popular MMOs out there are multi-faction MMOs and they do fine? You know why? They don't treat one faction like their favorite child and the others like red-headed step children and make it obvious that if you aren't the golden child you're almost worthless to them.
^so much this
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Oh and I'd go with Flash regarding ship styles.
The Borg thing was indeed, "play our way or the Doctor gets it". They did actually try and assimilate the crew on the cube as well, in a manner of speaking as they were going to forcibly hook them up to the collective "for efficiency".
That particular one is easy enough to handwave away: the Breen are a confederacy, i.e. a union of semi-autonomous states even less centralized than, well, a federation. So, the people who made the alliance with the Dominion are not the same people who are in power in Breen space now (much as the Romulans themselves go through changes of government every once in a while: one such change led to Shinzon's exile to Remus).
Also the Typhon Pact makes a whole lot of sense in one particular way. Its signatories have one significant interest in common, and that's that they all have a bone to pick with one or both of the Khitomer Accords' primary signatories. The Kinshaya hate the Klingons for glassing their homeworld, the Tzenkethi view the Federation as a threat due to their history (Sisko and Admiral Leyton fought the Tzenkethi in a previous war), and the Romulans hate both of them. The Typhon Pact is also played fairly realistically in that, since their common enemy is the really only thing they have in common, the alliance is far from stable: in contrast to the Federation-Klingon postwar relationship being much more solid than it is in STO, the Typhon Pact signatories spend almost as much time trying to put one over on their "allies" as they do acting as the Warsaw Pact to the Khitomer Accords' NATO.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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