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Threat Control vs Hangar Damage
direwolf016
Member Posts: 196 Arc User
in The Academy
As a tactical character, should I respec (assuming I have a token) to take Threat Control instead of Hangar Damage?
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Ever since the nerf to Feedback Pulse, Threat tanking isn't really a thing anymore. Since some of the best DPS ships in the game also have a hangar (Vengeance, Scimitar, etc) I always opt for Hangar Damage.
If Threat Control is pointless and broken, please explain me how DPS and ATKS-in don't (at least roughly) correlate on those combatlogs. In other words, why isn't the highest DPSer also getting highest % of ATKS-in?
The reason is that people with highest ATKS-ins in those runs have taken great steps to increase their threat generation and thus manage to grab lots of ATKS-in even without being highest DPSer in team. There are lots of other components to the formula, obviously, but manipulating threat generation via that Threat Control node (and consoles) is one of them.
If it were truly broken as you claim, all PvE logs would look roughly similar to this.
(I apologize for slightly skewing the correlation with my threat-shunning build, but it was the best I could find, given how I don't save lots of combatlogs)
To OP - for an average player hangar defense would probably be better choice, given how many ships come with hangars nowadays. I'd take Threat Control only in 3 cases:
1. If you absolutely hate getting hit at and you often fly with other players, preferrably with those who don't mind getting attacked as much as you do.
2. If you think you want to try building a tank at some point.
3. You don't ever plan to fly a ship with a hangar.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I'm curious to know, basically, how much of a difference it'd make in general game play. It does seem, a lot of times, that I'm getting a lot of the aggro in most team queues; on the otherhand, how much of a difference would it make if my build is DPS-intensive?
Plus the higher DPS person is killing the targets near him so fast the NPC have less chance to cause ATKS back. While the lower end DPS person takes longer to kill nearby targets so the NPC had more chance to ATKS back. That added with position and piloting accounts for the difference.
In short healing drawing aggro, low DPS and piloting all count for those ATKS-In. I see no evidence that threat control works. I also see no different in game when I stack up + or - threat control.
I know the mechanics behind threat and I agree that +/- Threat Control is only a part of the equation. However, check the logs again I posted again. No real correlation between healing and ATKS-in either.
Doesn't really work like that in HSE.
Then your findings conflict with those made by r/stobuilds moderators/mathgurus. I am more inclined to believe them, not to mention I personally have noticed difference as well.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
That's very hard for any of us to say. If you feel that you are getting lots to ATKS-in and tend to die because of it, and don't like it, then by all means, go and grab Threat Control. Be wary though that it won't suddenly make all enemies ignore you, and you might not notice a huge differance at all in pug queues (because of the huge DPS difference, or because everybody else has also taken the same node and are also running Threatening Stance offline), but it can help you shed some threat. However in pre-made environment, when you know you are running with a dedicated tank, it will definitely make your life easier.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
The first screenshot the person with triple healing received 74.38% of ATKS-in.
The 2nd screenshot. The two people with over 1 million healing each make up 82.36% of ATKS-in.
The 3rd screenshot. Again the two people who broke past 1million healing make up 70.86% of ATKS-in.
A long time ago I used to try to stack up -threat, do little outgoing threat and focus on group healing, minimum tank. It never worked.
Just done a quick test in game. I shot 1 torpedo to draw the NPC aggro so I have the bare minimum of threat then I stopped firing. On Elite my 4 allies then started shooting that NPC, 60 seconds later and the NPC is still ignoring my allies and shooting me. I have zero + threat. I am producing zero weapon threat. Yet I am still being targeted and the allies shooting are being ignored. That shows me + and - threat isn’t working.
Threat does partly work as healing and shooting very large amounts makes NPC's change targets. But the + and - do not seem to be having any noticeable impact. What is the point in stacking up - threat when it wont reduce the treat level? If stacking threat worked the NPC should have switched targets. EDIT: Plus if the NPC is not changing targets when I am not firing weapons, what is the point in firing weapons with - threat? I just do not see any evidence so far that - or + threat has been fixed.
Again, I am aware of healing generating threat and it's a very important component. However, you also have to take into account that people who take more ATKS-in *need* to heal more to stay alive. Their heals on themselves amplify the threat gained, absolutely, but the initial push for enemies to start shooting at them comes from other sources.
Furthermore...
1st screenshot - I did 22% of total dmg and 19% of total healing, yet my ATKS-in is the lowest in team with only 3%.
2nd screenshot - I did 26% of total dmg and 23% of heals, my ATKS-in was again the lowest in team with 4%. Aurum both out-DPSing and out-healed Starsha, yet they both managed to gain pretty much the same amount of aggro.
3rd screenshot - if we totally discard damage done (for the sake of argument), then my personal healing corresponds indeed with ATKS-in. However, a look at D'ani and we see he did 26% of total damage and 46% of total heals, yet managed to grab only 23% of aggro.
(Let it be noted that in all of those cases I was using my torp-exotic Vesta, so my low aggro is not due to a single target build.)
There is general correlation between healing and ATKS-in, as it has to be, and yes, those people gaining high DPS are piloting in a manner to be in the middle of a pack of enemies, but you can't simply flat out ignore threat modification.
So you did absolutely nothing, your teammates were pummeling the enemy for a minute straight, yet the NPC focused constantly on you? It shouldn't work that way even considering the threat mechanics you yourself described.
What kind of NPC was it? Were you constantly the closest to the NPC?
However, your test doesn't really prove anything on whether Threat Control (more specifically, ThreatScale, the same + and - of threat) is working or not.
EDIT: A friend of mine has built a passive tank and he assured me that Threat Control is in working order. He also argued that he'd pick Threat Control over Hangar Boost any day, even when flying ships with a hangar. Anyhow, look at the heals/DPS to ATKS-in ratio.
(edited other players' names out cause it was a pug run)
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Almost absolutely nothing, autofire off, setting Elite, 2 NPCs Orion Corvettes. What I did was moved slowly just inside 10km then went stationery. I fired one weapon once then after the NPC starts shooting me the allies start shooting it. The NPC I shoot does change targets given enough time but – and + threat seem to have zero impact. The NPC I do not shoot almost straight away change targets.
If – threat is not protecting me and + threat is not drawing the NPC way from me when I fire 1 weapon once. What hope has + and – of doing anything useful or noticeable when I am firing my weapons and still generating threat?
But that is along the lines of what I expected to see. That doesn’t show – or + threat is working.
I have still not seen any evidence that threat + or - modification works. Every time I have tried it the threat modification has no impact. It would be nice if I was wrong and it has been fixed but my short testing is suggesting it’s still broken and there is no point in fitting -threat or stacking into -threat.
Right. "The Earth is flat just because I have never witnessed it being round with my own eyes."
I hope it's at least fun to live in your own fantasy land where completely different rules apply.
I brought you numerous examples. You chose to simply ignore them and tried to bring in your own simplistic test that proved nothing to support your own claims.
Hell, at least Aggronauts are probably getting really good laughs when they happen to stumble on this thread. (Or maybe they might just delete their tanks out of depression because forum Top Fleet Players™ suddenly proved how their old knowledge is completely wrong and their immensely well-crafted builds don't actually work.)
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I am not saying threat is completely broken. I am saying the threat modifications do not seem to be working correctly or not enough to be worthwhile.
Please explain how my test proved nothing to support my claim? Yes my test was simplistic and if + or – threat fails to work in such a simple test then the test supports my claim. If + or - threat cannot even change an NPC target within 30 seconds when I am not generating extra threat with my weapons, how do you expect it to work when I am firing my weapons?
Have you even tried playing a none tank healer, stacking up – threat? It rarely works due to threat not working correctly. At least it didn’t last time I tried it which was a while ago I admit. Perhaps there is a flaw I missed in my test and perhaps I missed a fix. If so I would love to be corrected. But at the moment I am not seeing any evidence + or – threat modifications are worthwhile. Next time I am free I will try and stack up more extreme levels of - threat.
That might have worked as a counter for other people but it doesn’t really work for me.
The 1 NPC I shot switched away from me to my allies. Even though my allies are doing vastly more DPS then me the other NPC’s that I did not shoot ignored my allies and all shot me even though I put zero threat onto them and had – threat stacked up. Ran out of time to test more but this sort of explains why threat modification wasn't working on my none tank healer build.
EDIT: Just repeated the test above this time with a different weapon system mines. It took a very long time for the 2 NPC’s to swap away from me. This need repeating and averaging but its starting to look like threat modification only works with certain weapons and builds.