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Forums > Home› Ten Forward

The sad truth about the Oberth class

galattgalatt Member Posts: 709 Arc User
in Ten Forward
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbiHthZpez8
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Comments

  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,402 Arc User
    Yeah it's like with transporters, we generally only see Oberths or Mirandas when things go wrong. we don't see the hundreds or even thousands of Oberths that performed their missions without any major issues between the 2280s and 2410.

    It's kind of like saying that because had limitations on my playing of STO recently due to being on medication to treat an eye infection, I must be constantly under limited playtime, even though said eye infection was an exception to the norm rather then the norm, it's just that there's no point in reporting the norm.
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,165 Arc User
    Poor little Tim Tim grew up without a father, he died serving the Federation proudly as he heroically got crushed by one of the bridge support beams.
    zx2t8tuj4i10.png
    Thank you for the Typhoon!
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Hm - the Miranda is arguably a lot worse off than the Oberth. I mean:

    USS Reliant: commandeered, used to attack the Enterprise and subsequently destroyed by damage from the Enterprise + genesis device detonation

    USS Brattain: Trapped in a tykens rift

    USS Lantree: Destroyed by the Enterprise due to contagion aboard the ship which caused crew to age rapidly.

    USS Sitak and USS Majestic: Wrecked by Cardassian/Jem Hadar ships during 'Operation Return'.

    USS Saratoga (NCC-1887): Rendered inoperable by whale-probe. Presumably decommissioned at some point (not necessarily due to the whale probe incident though) due to the existence of:
    USS Saratoga (NCC-31911): Destroyed at Wolf 359

    USS ShirKahr: Destroyed(?) - took MASSIVE damage to her primary hull from weapons platforms in the first battle in the Chin'toka system.

    Obviously a few were more lucky but on the whole I'd say that these are ships which were in service for a looong time, probably in large numbers, so not really surprising that many of them were unlucky.

    In fairness when you compare the number of screen named ships that are destroyed of each class even the mighty Galaxy class is not exactly well off is it?

    Odyssey - blown up due to being rammed by JHAS.

    Yamato - blown up due to infection with Iconian virus.

    Enterprise - blown up/crashed onto planet due to Klingon attack (and Troi's shoddy piloting ;) )

    That's 3 out of the known named ships of that class. Pretty poor going for such a massive and powerful ship
    SulMatuul.png
  • vosorosvosoros Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Hm - the Miranda is arguably a lot worse off than the Oberth. I mean:

    USS Reliant: commandeered, used to attack the Enterprise and subsequently destroyed by damage from the Enterprise + genesis device detonation

    USS Brattain: Trapped in a tykens rift

    USS Lantree: Destroyed by the Enterprise due to contagion aboard the ship which caused crew to age rapidly.

    USS Sitak and USS Majestic: Wrecked by Cardassian/Jem Hadar ships during 'Operation Return'.

    USS Saratoga (NCC-1887): Rendered inoperable by whale-probe. Presumably decommissioned at some point (not necessarily due to the whale probe incident though) due to the existence of:
    USS Saratoga (NCC-31911): Destroyed at Wolf 359

    USS ShirKahr: Destroyed(?) - took MASSIVE damage to her primary hull from weapons platforms in the first battle in the Chin'toka system.

    Obviously a few were more lucky but on the whole I'd say that these are ships which were in service for a looong time, probably in large numbers, so not really surprising that many of them were unlucky.

    In fairness when you compare the number of screen named ships that are destroyed of each class even the mighty Galaxy class is not exactly well off is it?

    Odyssey - blown up due to being rammed by JHAS.

    Yamato - blown up due to infection with Iconian virus.

    Enterprise - blown up/crashed onto planet due to Klingon attack (and Troi's shoddy piloting ;) )

    That's 3 out of the known named ships of that class. Pretty poor going for such a massive and powerful ship

    That and I believe Gene Rodenberry was noted (in the 50th Anniversary Star Trek Encylopedia) regarding the Galaxy class to have said there were only 6 in commission at the time. That's a 50% sorta fail rating for the class of starship...

    :o
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    These are the voyages of the U.S.S. Pioneer...
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    Even before Generations the early GCSs had a bunch of serious teething problems: among other things the warp core ejection systems never worked (which I think Geordi got a little genre-savvy about, seeing as how he didn't even bother trying to eject the core in Generations).

    But on the flipside, at First Chin'toka the Venture and Galaxy were the only ships that could tank the Cardie weapons platforms without serious damage, so it could be Starfleet learned from the Enterprise-D and got the bugs worked out.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    Even before Generations the early GCSs had a bunch of serious teething problems: among other things the warp core ejection systems never worked (which I think Geordi got a little genre-savvy about, seeing as how he didn't even bother trying to eject the core in Generations).

    But on the flipside, at First Chin'toka the Venture and Galaxy were the only ships that could tank the Cardie weapons platforms without serious damage, so it could be Starfleet learned from the Enterprise-D and got the bugs worked out.

    with what happened on generations, i don't think there was a chance to try dump the core. The Klingons surprised the entire ships crew with their attack and how they were able to get around shield modulations. it is possible the disruptor damage to the lower decks of the enterprise may have fused the hull plate covering the warp core or disrupted systems in that area. it is one thing that wasn't explained.

    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Thing i never got about Generations, if you had the shield frequency and a cloak why not just blow the bridge off the Enterprise in the first shot? Or shoot out both nacelles, or the impulse engines first. That would utterly cripple the ship within seconds for you to do as you pleased whilst it tried to get things sorted to fight back.

    The Duras sisters by comparison wasted shots against the hull which could have done way more damage if they knew what they were doing. I know it blew up anyway but they didn't live to see it due to their stupidity.
    Poor tactics from some dishonorable Klingons if you ask me.
    SulMatuul.png
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Thing i never got about Generations, if you had the shield frequency and a cloak why not just blow the bridge off the Enterprise in the first shot? Or shoot out both nacelles, or the impulse engines first. That would utterly cripple the ship within seconds for you to do as you pleased whilst it tried to get things sorted to fight back.

    The Duras sisters by comparison wasted shots against the hull which could have done way more damage if they knew what they were doing. I know it blew up anyway but they didn't live to see it due to their stupidity.
    Poor tactics from some dishonorable Klingons if you ask me.

    A few of their disruptor shots missed the barn in front of them. i'm wondering if B'Etor was trained enough to use them to get exact shots at the bridge? The galaxy class is far larger than the aging d12, it might have been easier to go after soft targets of opportunity for secondary hits than trying to go for the big prize.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    ShirKahr confirmed destroyed, Nautilus and Tian Am Man also Miranda classes survived first Chin'Toka
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
      > @mirrorchaos said:
      > lordsteve1 wrote: »
      >
      > Thing i never got about Generations, if you had the shield frequency and a cloak why not just blow the bridge off the Enterprise in the first shot? Or shoot out both nacelles, or the impulse engines first. That would utterly cripple the ship within seconds for you to do as you pleased whilst it tried to get things sorted to fight back.
      >
      > The Duras sisters by comparison wasted shots against the hull which could have done way more damage if they knew what they were doing. I know it blew up anyway but they didn't live to see it due to their stupidity.
      > Poor tactics from some dishonorable Klingons if you ask me.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > A few of their disruptor shots missed the barn in front of them. i'm wondering if B'Etor was trained enough to use them to get exact shots at the bridge? The galaxy class is far larger than the aging d12, it might have been easier to go after soft targets of opportunity for secondary hits than trying to go for the big prize.

      Quite frankly the fight doesn't make a lick of sense, both sides are implausibly incompetent. The Enterprise tanked a Borg cube a while back, remember? In any sensible film it should have made short work of the BoP even WITH the cheat code. But instead they fire one phaser blast and then slowly run away.

      A bunch of things about the Duras Sisters' last stand make a lot more sense when you consider that in the script the ship was supposed to have been a Vor'cha, not a B'Rel. The studio made them change it so they could reuse stock footage from ST6: IIRC much of that scene has the Ent-D digitally replacing the Ent-A.
      "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
      — Sabaton, "Great War"
      VZ9ASdg.png

      Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
    • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
      Yeah it's as if the BoP really isn't being flown right. In DS9 we see them flying like fighter planes but in Generations it just sits there and shoots a few round and get blown up.
      Worst KDF crew ever imo!
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    • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,476 Arc User
      lordsteve1 wrote: »
      Yeah it's as if the BoP really isn't being flown right. In DS9 we see them flying like fighter planes but in Generations it just sits there and shoots a few round and get blown up.
      Worst KDF crew ever imo!
      Well, that's what happens when you're using a House fleet without clearance from the High Council...
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    • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
      The Oberth is a case of a non-combat ship constantly getting thrown into combat situations. It is like complaining about a taxi not being faster than a race car.


      As for the Galaxy and its tepid performance... There were a lot of time travel and alternate dimension episodes that showed the Galaxy class to have a glass jaw. A simple glancing blow on a warp nacelle during the time loop episode was enough to blow up the entire ship, a similar thing happened when debris hit the Odyssey's nacelle. Skip targeting the bridge, the nacelles are the real weak point of the Galaxy's design.

      The D being destroyed by the Duras sisters might also fall squarely at Riker's feet. Way back in TNG Season 2 he was pretty dismissive of the concept of combat training acting like it was beneath him, so his skills in ship to ship combat are pretty dubious. This is backed up by a small band of Ferengi being able to completely capture the Enterprise while Riker was in command.
    • soullessraptorsoullessraptor Member Posts: 353 Arc User
      Also, with the Galaxy-class, it's a sign of the Federation's declining miltarism and emphasis on versatility. It's not a great science ship, not a great combatant, not a great exploratory ship. It's sorta okay at everything.
    • vosorosvosoros Member Posts: 343 Arc User
      edited January 2018
      You know, maybe all this polava is the reason behind the Nova class coming about. Then you read the bit on the Nova class and the 3 ships that have (presumably) blown up 'cos of the warp power problems in Star Trek Adventures and facepalm.

      :*

      Come on Starfleet, it took you until the Rhode Island to really iron out those kinks...
      58B41985A8FAC3BF243D274977A124EC060F0AAF
      These are the voyages of the U.S.S. Pioneer...
    • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
      If you read the Titan novels even the Luna class had devastating warp drive problems. The Enterprise-A also had a ton of problems when it was deployed in ST5.

      When you start to pile up these instances it is starting to seem like Starfleet ships are held together with duct tape and wishful thinking...
    • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
      > @lordrezeon said:
      > If you read the Titan novels even the Luna class had devastating warp drive problems. The Enterprise-A also had a ton of problems when it was deployed in ST5.
      >
      > When you start to pile up these instances it is starting to seem like Starfleet ships are held together with duct tape and wishful thinking...

      https://m.imgur.com/gallery/2vBAY
      "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
      — Sabaton, "Great War"
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      Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
    • antonine3258antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,391 Arc User
      lordrezeon wrote: »
      If you read the Titan novels even the Luna class had devastating warp drive problems. The Enterprise-A also had a ton of problems when it was deployed in ST5.

      When you start to pile up these instances it is starting to seem like Starfleet ships are held together with duct tape and wishful thinking...

      Starfleet ships canne take much more of this a lot but it's a stressful existence.
      Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker

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    • vosorosvosoros Member Posts: 343 Arc User
      Here's contrasting food for thought...

      The only starship class (so far as I'm aware) to have no losses of that class destroyed is the Intrepid Class. Admittedly this is owing to the fact we've only seen Voyager and the Bellerophon in the TV shows...but it's interesting to note all the same IMHO.

      OK, so you could argue that throughout Voyager the ship was destroyed in innumerate ways; crash landing on the icy planet on the edge of the alpha quadrant and the likes. But in the end, Voyager made it through the most unlikely series of events and encounters for seven years on it's own. Compare that to every other ship of the line for the federation and you could say the Intrepid class is kinda the badass starship of the Federation.

      Just an interesting thought as I said...
      58B41985A8FAC3BF243D274977A124EC060F0AAF
      These are the voyages of the U.S.S. Pioneer...
    • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
      Frankly, I think this is mostly an issue with the fact that, the Ent-Nil excepted, every protagonist ship has been either from the first production series or the literal prototype. New models tend to have teething problems, and that's as true of passenger cars—Honda took the Element out of production for several years because of persistent problems with door latches and spontaneously cracking windshields—as of warships—the USS Freedom LCS-1 has had repeated hull fractures and engine failures, and USS Independence LCS-2 is having trouble with hull corrosion.

      To tie that to Star Trek, in DS9 especially there were statements that Chief O'Brien spent a lot of his time fixing problems with the Defiant, such as the ship trying to rip itself apart every time they fired the main cannons.
      "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
      — Sabaton, "Great War"
      VZ9ASdg.png

      Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
    • nickcastletonnickcastleton Member Posts: 1,212 Arc User
      lordsteve1 wrote: »
      Thing i never got about Generations, if you had the shield frequency and a cloak why not just blow the bridge off the Enterprise in the first shot? Or shoot out both nacelles, or the impulse engines first. That would utterly cripple the ship within seconds for you to do as you pleased whilst it tried to get things sorted to fight back.

      The Duras sisters by comparison wasted shots against the hull which could have done way more damage if they knew what they were doing. I know it blew up anyway but they didn't live to see it due to their stupidity.
      Poor tactics from some dishonorable Klingons if you ask me.

      hitting the bridge may not be as damaging as you think, remember the Galaxy has a battle bridge and we have seen bridge controls be re routed to main engineering so while the senior staff may be dead Geordi could take control.
      starswordc wrote: »
      Quite frankly the fight doesn't make a lick of sense, both sides are implausibly incompetent. The Enterprise tanked a Borg cube a while back, remember? In any sensible film it should have made short work of the BoP even WITH the cheat code. But instead they fire one phaser blast and then slowly run away..
      True and as mentioned later a Galaxy class fires a fe shots and takes down a Galor class, but maybe by then the main power was down and if so the power of the phasers could be severely reduced to a point that they couldn't even scratch them.

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    • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
      If the sisters had have used a Vor'Cha or Negh'Var the Ent D could have gone out properly. Instead they chose to reuse footage from the TOS films of a BoP leading to the whole ridiculous mess.​​
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    • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
      But I LIKE the Oberth T_T

      Same for the Galaxy. I personally saw nothing wrong with it, and some fellow made some awesome photoshops somewhere of First Contact Borg battle, replacing the E with the D. Looked awesome :)
      dvZq2Aj.jpg
    • bcwhguderian1941bcwhguderian1941 Member Posts: 804 Arc User
      I did'nt see anyone mention the Constitution Class? Intrepid, Constellation, Excaliber, Farragut, Defiant, and Enterprise. All
      lost in action, or badly crippled. :)

      BCW
    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
      Morale of the story is if you are assigned to the fodder ships then write your last will and testiment, welcome to the redshirt fleet :D
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        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
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      • vosorosvosoros Member Posts: 343 Arc User
        Well here's an interesting thought...

        I have NEVER heard of a starship assigned to planetary surveys being destroyed. Only when they encounter hostile forces or unknown spatial phenomena during the charting/exploration of space does it all go wrong so far as I'm aware. Which would suggest that the safest career path in Starfleet is the likes of botany, anthropology, geology, etc.

        So, never boldly go seems to be the lesson here...

        ;)
        58B41985A8FAC3BF243D274977A124EC060F0AAF
        These are the voyages of the U.S.S. Pioneer...
      • antonine3258antonine3258 Member Posts: 2,391 Arc User
        vosoros wrote: »
        Well here's an interesting thought...

        I have NEVER heard of a starship assigned to planetary surveys being destroyed. Only when they encounter hostile forces or unknown spatial phenomena during the charting/exploration of space does it all go wrong so far as I'm aware. Which would suggest that the safest career path in Starfleet is the likes of botany, anthropology, geology, etc.

        So, never boldly go seems to be the lesson here...

        ;)

        USS Exeter lost its whole crew on a survey; not technically destroyed, due to a virus. Friendly war games badly damaged the Excalibur and Lexington, the Defiant in one alternate reality crashed when trying to leave orbit around a planet (admittedly spatial phenomenon in that case, but they were investigating the distortions deliberately and still got into trouble)

        The older USS Essex was apparently destroyed when the planet it surveyed turned out to be a penal colony. Enterprise-D was nearly destroyed from a non-organic life form aboard an asteroid it destroyed to help a colony.

        On the goofier side, spores caused the crew of the NCC-1701 to abandon her.

        To quote Q: " If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. "

        Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker

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      • soullessraptorsoullessraptor Member Posts: 353 Arc User
        Honestly, I'd say that the biggest problem Starfleet keeps having is that they continually overestimate the safety and intention of their explorations. Like...you'd think that by this point, they'd have installed MANY more features to prevent absurd things from scuttling or destroying their ships
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