Burnham is just such a bland Mary-sue it's boring
She is not a very good "Mary-sue". We have only seen her excel at deception and drama. While the universe often praises Burnham, the actions she actually performs appear far from extraordinary. This is what makes her boring and uninteresting.
1) Mary Sue is more a thing for fan fiction than the core fiction.
2) She isn't praised "by the universe". People praised her for her competence when she showed it, and they hated her for her mutiny. When she acts rudely, she is actually called out for it and people comment on it negatively (or even offer some ridicule, depending on the situation).
Heck, in the previous episode Lorca clearly criticizes her for failing her mission because the planetary subspace beacon is not sending a signal helping to detect cloaked ships, but sending a subspace invitation to the Klingons. (And in fact, I have a hard time remembering where something like that happened previously in Star Trek - "hey, we got the mission done, Captain". "No, you didn't, you screwed it up!")
#2 is very much the key point. The Mary Sue definition is (at its most basic) an idealized character who is "practically perfect in every way" (sorry, Mary Poppins). S/he is the best evah at everything and characters fawn over him/her no matter what nonsense or criminality s/he commits.
Burnham fails this most basic Mary Sue criterion. Her character flaws, of which there are many, are there deliberately to give her room for character development, and she is very much shown not to be in the right with her actions in the pilot (that is, her reading of the situation was more or less correct, but the course of action she chose to deal with it was emotionally driven and clearly incorrect), and the other characters all hate her for it until she earns their trust. And for another example, she's a science officer, so, despite the fact Starfleet officers multiclass compared to other military personnel in the setting, she's barely able to keep Kol off her when she fights him in "Into the Forest" (and that's with the establishment in the third episode that she's been trained in suus mahna). Somebody like Kirk or Sisko, straight-up soldiers, might have done better. So that's the "best evah at everything" criterion flunked, too.
Now, you want a Canon Sue, you go to somebody like Jadzia Dax. Great at Klingon martial arts, great scientist, great drinker, past life was a great diplomat, connected to three major Klingons of TOS through aforementioned past life, etc. And her character flaws, such as arrogance, are barely commented on, and usually in the context of making the commenter look bad for criticizing her.
/deathtotheeditmonster
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm afraid of that too, and I'm losing hope here. It really seems like they're doing just that. <.<
Aside from that primal fear, the episode was really awsome in many ways. High stakes, for once the obligatory "I'm commiting a direct violation of our orders"-line is somewhat justified, good action, PTSD-acting, conveniently saving the admiral AND some satisfactory revenge on klingons, flashbacks to interracial intercourse (not a Grilka, but L'Rell ain't that bad-looking- she just lacks hair). And the reaction of L'Rell on Tyler really makes me wonder if he might be Voq AFTERALL. Transplanted skin from a killed human with transplanted memories and suppressed own self and bam, you get Tyloq. Would also explain her "special interest" in him.
Also, magic space-mushroom-overdose and a good cliffhanger-ending.
Good times, but POOR STAMETS!
Also, to please not boldly go into a goatee-universe...
Burnham is just such a bland Mary-sue it's boring
She is not a very good "Mary-sue". We have only seen her excel at deception and drama. While the universe often praises Burnham, the actions she actually performs appear far from extraordinary. This is what makes her boring and uninteresting.
1) Mary Sue is more a thing for fan fiction than the core fiction.
2) She isn't praised "by the universe". People praised her for her competence when she showed it, and they hated her for her mutiny. When she acts rudely, she is actually called out for it and people comment on it negatively (or even offer some ridicule, depending on the situation).
Heck, in the previous episode Lorca clearly criticizes her for failing her mission because the planetary subspace beacon is not sending a signal helping to detect cloaked ships, but sending a subspace invitation to the Klingons. (And in fact, I have a hard time remembering where something like that happened previously in Star Trek - "hey, we got the mission done, Captain". "No, you didn't, you screwed it up!")
#2 is very much the key point. The Mary Sue definition is (at its most basic) an idealized character who is "practically perfect in every way" (sorry, Mary Poppins). S/he is the best evah at everything and characters fawn over him/her no matter what nonsense or criminality s/he commits.
Burnham fails this most basic Mary Sue criterion. Her character flaws, of which there are many, are there deliberately to give her room for character development, and she is very much shown not to be in the right with her actions in the pilot (that is, her reading of the situation was more or less correct, but the course of action she chose to deal with it was emotionally driven and clearly incorrect), and the other characters all hate her for it until she earns their trust. And for another example, she's a science officer, so, despite the fact Starfleet officers multiclass compared to other military personnel in the setting, she's barely able to keep Kol off her when she fights him in "Into the Forest" (and that's with the establishment in the third episode that she's been trained in suus mahna). Somebody like Kirk or Sisko, straight-up soldiers, might have done better. So that's the "best evah at everything" criterion flunked, too.
Also notable how her Vulcan combat techniques didn't really help her against Saru. She needed that phaser...
Now, you want a Canon Sue, you go to somebody like Jadzia Dax. Great at Klingon martial arts, great scientist, great drinker, past life was a great diplomat, connected to three major Klingons of TOS through aforementioned past life, etc. And her character flaws, such as arrogance, are barely commented on, and usually in the context of making the commenter look bad for criticizing her.
/deathtotheeditmonster
Jadzia however might at least be somewhat justified case, since she has the experience of several lifetimes in quite different professions.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Jadzia is super-competent compared to other Trills. She's super-competent compared to Ezri even! Such as being good enough at Tonga to occasionally beat Quark when Bashir couldn't do it.
> @markhawkman said: > Jadzia is super-competent compared to other Trills. She's super-competent compared to Ezri even! Such as being good enough at Tonga to occasionally beat Quark when Bashir couldn't do it.
But that's just it, though. You compare Jadzia to Ezri, the one is at least competent at basically everything she ever does, from analyzing artifacts of godlike aliens to commanding a tacscort in wartime. And as previously mentioned, her arrogance and mercuriality are barely touched on, and the only major time it is (the Risa episode), the end result is an attempt to make Worf look like the bad guy for actually trying to have a serious discussion about their relationship (which was supposed to have been the whole point of going to Risa to begin with, which was where she, not he, wanted to vacation).
The other isn't even that good at her OWN ostensible job specialty, psychiatry (and that isn't affected by the fact that Ezri Tigan didn't receive any training on how to use Dax before implantation: she was a ship's counselor beforehand). Her inexperience is written as something for her character to grow out of, just like Bashir grew out of being an arrogant wide-eyed FNG all excited about frontier medicine (Kira: "This frontier is my home") and into a mature, compassionate medical officer.
/Suckiteditmonster
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @markhawkman said:
> Jadzia is super-competent compared to other Trills. She's super-competent compared to Ezri even! Such as being good enough at Tonga to occasionally beat Quark when Bashir couldn't do it.
But that's just it, though. You compare Jadzia to Ezri, the one is at least competent at basically everything she ever does, from analyzing artifacts of godlike aliens to commanding a tacscort in wartime. And as previously mentioned, her arrogance and mercuriality are barely touched on, and the only major time it is (the Risa episode), the end result is an attempt to make Worf look like the bad guy for actually trying to have a serious discussion about their relationship (which was supposed to have been the whole point of going to Risa to begin with, which was where she, not he, wanted to vacation).
The other isn't even that good at her OWN ostensible job specialty, psychiatry (and that isn't affected by the fact that Ezri Tigan didn't receive any training on how to use Dax before implantation: she was a ship's counselor beforehand). Her inexperience is written as something for her character to grow out of, just like Bashir grew out of being an arrogant wide-eyed FNG all excited about frontier medicine (Kira: "This frontier is my home") and into a mature, compassionate medical officer.
/Suckiteditmonster
Agreed - and sadly, those writing recent novels involving Ezri would appear to agree. Unfortunately the end-product is a ridiculously Mary-Sue character commanding a Mary-Sue ship. I absolutely loathe what the novels have done to the character.
Heh, I've got a pet theory that Novelverse!Ezri is a STO player character. Think about it: she inherits command of the Aventine when her CO is killed in a Borg attack, and turns into this hypercompetent captain who can be everywhere faster and do everything better than anybody else in her series.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
#2 is very much the key point. The Mary Sue definition is (at its most basic) an idealized character who is "practically perfect in every way" (sorry, Mary Poppins). S/he is the best evah at everything and characters fawn over him/her no matter what nonsense or criminality s/he commits.
Burnham fails this most basic Mary Sue criterion. Her character flaws, of which there are many, are there deliberately to give her room for character development, and she is very much shown not to be in the right with her actions in the pilot (that is, her reading of the situation was more or less correct, but the course of action she chose to deal with it was emotionally driven and clearly incorrect), and the other characters all hate her for it until she earns their trust. And for another example, she's a science officer, so, despite the fact Starfleet officers multiclass compared to other military personnel in the setting, she's barely able to keep Kol off her when she fights him in "Into the Forest" (and that's with the establishment in the third episode that she's been trained in suus mahna). Somebody like Kirk or Sisko, straight-up soldiers, might have done better. So that's the "best evah at everything" criterion flunked, too.
Now, you want a Canon Sue, you go to somebody like Jadzia Dax. Great at Klingon martial arts, great scientist, great drinker, past life was a great diplomat, connected to three major Klingons of TOS through aforementioned past life, etc. And her character flaws, such as arrogance, are barely commented on, and usually in the context of making the commenter look bad for criticizing her.
/deathtotheeditmonster
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I'm afraid of that too, and I'm losing hope here. It really seems like they're doing just that. <.<
Aside from that primal fear, the episode was really awsome in many ways. High stakes, for once the obligatory "I'm commiting a direct violation of our orders"-line is somewhat justified, good action, PTSD-acting, conveniently saving the admiral AND some satisfactory revenge on klingons, flashbacks to interracial intercourse (not a Grilka, but L'Rell ain't that bad-looking- she just lacks hair). And the reaction of L'Rell on Tyler really makes me wonder if he might be Voq AFTERALL. Transplanted skin from a killed human with transplanted memories and suppressed own self and bam, you get Tyloq. Would also explain her "special interest" in him.
Also, magic space-mushroom-overdose and a good cliffhanger-ending.
Good times, but POOR STAMETS!
Also, to please not boldly go into a goatee-universe...
Jadzia however might at least be somewhat justified case, since she has the experience of several lifetimes in quite different professions.
My character Tsin'xing
> Jadzia is super-competent compared to other Trills. She's super-competent compared to Ezri even! Such as being good enough at Tonga to occasionally beat Quark when Bashir couldn't do it.
But that's just it, though. You compare Jadzia to Ezri, the one is at least competent at basically everything she ever does, from analyzing artifacts of godlike aliens to commanding a tacscort in wartime. And as previously mentioned, her arrogance and mercuriality are barely touched on, and the only major time it is (the Risa episode), the end result is an attempt to make Worf look like the bad guy for actually trying to have a serious discussion about their relationship (which was supposed to have been the whole point of going to Risa to begin with, which was where she, not he, wanted to vacation).
The other isn't even that good at her OWN ostensible job specialty, psychiatry (and that isn't affected by the fact that Ezri Tigan didn't receive any training on how to use Dax before implantation: she was a ship's counselor beforehand). Her inexperience is written as something for her character to grow out of, just like Bashir grew out of being an arrogant wide-eyed FNG all excited about frontier medicine (Kira: "This frontier is my home") and into a mature, compassionate medical officer.
/Suckiteditmonster
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Heh, I've got a pet theory that Novelverse!Ezri is a STO player character. Think about it: she inherits command of the Aventine when her CO is killed in a Borg attack, and turns into this hypercompetent captain who can be everywhere faster and do everything better than anybody else in her series.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/