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Tzenkethi Protomatter Torpedos.... Bug or?
the1tigglet
Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
Weapons and skills normally setup to handle small weapons and ships are completely immune to attacks in the Tzenkethi Red Alert.
Protomatter Torpedos should NEVER be immune to any of the universal consoles or skills that have tractor or gravity effects.
Science Skills:
Tyken's Rift, Gravity Well, Photonic Shockwave, Charged Particle Burst (none of them do damage to these torps but much worse these torps are immune to gravity)
Intel SKills:
EM Pulse Probe (Disable), Ionic Turbulence (immune to the slow)
Command Skills:
Suppression Barrage
Pilot Skills:
Clean Getaway,Coolant Ignition, Subspace Boom
Temporal Skills:
Chronometric Inversion Field, Timeline Collapse, Entropic Redistribution
And I'm sure that none of the new Miracle Worker abilities seem to touch these things. It's like Q got ahold of them and made them immune to physical laws.
My point is why give us skills that are completely useless against major enemies when in reality this wouldn't happen. Within the new canon even there would be no immunity versus gravity effects even in Star Trek Discovery.
Is this a bug? Are there any plans on fixing this issue? I understand that people want to make things difficult and it is challenging because of the defense of the Tzenkethi ships already. Why make it ridiculous? All this is for is to get a daily set of reputation currency. Even the BORG aren't this difficult in their most difficult SPFs >.<
Protomatter Torpedos should NEVER be immune to any of the universal consoles or skills that have tractor or gravity effects.
Science Skills:
Tyken's Rift, Gravity Well, Photonic Shockwave, Charged Particle Burst (none of them do damage to these torps but much worse these torps are immune to gravity)
Intel SKills:
EM Pulse Probe (Disable), Ionic Turbulence (immune to the slow)
Command Skills:
Suppression Barrage
Pilot Skills:
Clean Getaway,Coolant Ignition, Subspace Boom
Temporal Skills:
Chronometric Inversion Field, Timeline Collapse, Entropic Redistribution
And I'm sure that none of the new Miracle Worker abilities seem to touch these things. It's like Q got ahold of them and made them immune to physical laws.
My point is why give us skills that are completely useless against major enemies when in reality this wouldn't happen. Within the new canon even there would be no immunity versus gravity effects even in Star Trek Discovery.
Is this a bug? Are there any plans on fixing this issue? I understand that people want to make things difficult and it is challenging because of the defense of the Tzenkethi ships already. Why make it ridiculous? All this is for is to get a daily set of reputation currency. Even the BORG aren't this difficult in their most difficult SPFs >.<
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Nanite SPF 15. "Your UV radiation belongs to us. Resistance is futile."
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
lol yes this ^ These are not normal torpedoes
Think I've seen gravity well have some affect but it's got to be a whopper GW3, also TBR and TBR (with reverse doff) seem to have a limited affect, but again they have to be buffed up pretty good.
Would be interesting to see how something like a Console-Universal-Barrier Field Generator works.
It's not that the torps are unaffected by Grav Well and such. It's that they're immune to the control effect of them. Remember a lot of abilities like that a PBAoE. Point Based, meaning the majority of their damage is at the center. The further away from that you are, the less damage there is.
Like grenades and micro-torpedoes, Damage reduced from epicenter.
The control immunity of the torps is what lowers the effectiveness of these abilities.
Can I assume that TBR (push) still has an affect on the slower moving HY torps such as those found in CSA while near a cube? It used to be an easy way to deal with them.
@leemwatson it's no small task to keep up with every single change, even with an almost religious amount of regular reading
I'm not sure. I use TBR on my newest toon, mainly because my sci boff came with it. I've never seen it push a HY torp back. Just destroy it. But that's in episodes and it really doesn't take much there.
It still could. It's one of those odd things. A HY torp is targetable. A torp spread isn't. It's deffinately worth looking into that way.
Which may explain this problem. While the Tzen torps are targetable. They may still register as a non-targetable spread for these abilities. That's just a guess on my part though.
The main thing that needs to be checked here, is if these abilities are still doing damage to the torps.
This may be an overall bug for it. But currently, the more we know.
And as already mentioned, they intentionally made projectiles immune to the damage component of various abilities in the "balance pass," because popping a grav well or something used to completely prevent enemies from using any targetable projectiles at all.
Give players skills to help manage multiple targets, make enemies immune to said skill. IE. useless game design.
As a side note, what happens to these RAs when this happens is fewer people play them because they become ridiculous. Right now it's gotta time of 10 minutes. That should tell the developers how stupid this system is.
And they did not make enemies immune to those skills either. You can still throw a Tyken's rift at a torpedo. It will destroy the torpedo, it's just that the hazard effect won't damage torpedoes that enter it after you have used that TR.
Torpedo spread, fire at will and scatter volley are also still working well against these targets.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
It totally is idiotic because it means they've made half the skills unusable.
Let me tell you about what other devs have done because making bosses or enemies immune never ends well and doesn't foster thought as you claim.
Other devs in other mmos had similar problems where CC skills would make everything easy against bosses. What they've done is added a system of resistance where it acted like a temporary hitpoints system. When CC skills would be cast instead of them instantly slowing or stopping enemies that had this resistance they would take "damage" on this secondary bar designed to make them temporarily immune to CC.
When that bar was gone however, they were totally affected by the next CC spells and effects that hit them.
What they are doing right now, is the equivalent of the instakill problem that they had with the Borg. Even the basic SPF had an issue where you would be at 100% health and shields and suddenly a single shot from the borg would instantly kill you. They got rid of this mechanic eventually but not after doing damage to the community's faith in their ability to program proper mechanics.
Total immunity to CC is just as bad as instakill mechanics and it never ever makes for a better or more interesting gameplay. It's been proven time and time again that it's never smart to allow those mechanics in any mmorpg or mmosci game.
IIRC, that instakill thing from the Borg was a bug and was never supposed to happen actually. I may be misremembering though.
Anyway, they've not made these skills 'unusable'. As I said before, you can still use these abilities to damage the torpedoes. They're just immune to hazard effects. And these abilities are still useful to use against enemy ships as well so calling them unusable or even useless is greatly exxagerated.
100% immunity to control effects or hazards may not be the perfect solution, but neither was 100% vulnerability which, in practice, meant that players never even had to consider the existence of such torpedoes. The mechanic that you are proposing may be a good alternative in that it tries to present a solution between these two extremes, although I think it would make things more complicated when that's totally unnecessary imo. There are still many abilities that can counter these torpedoes and the abilities that used to do it, are still useful in general.
Besides all that, they have designed a mission where the challenge is to actually target the torpedoes, i.e. you have to make som effort for it. I doubt they're going to change it now cause it would make this entire mission much less interesting. And from what I've seen so far (and I've been playing the Red Alert a lot for the accolade) there seems to be no problem among the playerbase to shoot them down.
It just requires a bit more attention than before, which is a good thing if you ask me.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
A temporary control immunity against control effects would probably not make much difference in practice. When you have players dedicated to shutting down enemy ships with tons of slow, drain and hazard abilities and even more stuff buffing it like the Temporal spec tree or torpedoes that leave behind hazard clouds like the PEP, I doubt it would make much difference.
For such dedicated players, it would still be possible to almost instantly destroy these torpedoes, which I think would not be the right thing to do, design-wise as it would still make the entire concept of targetable torpedoes redundant - as it was before. For less dedicated players, there would be no difference so they might as well keep things as they are if making changes won't make any difference in the end.
Besides, even with temporary resistance, It would still mean that players have to go after and focus on these torpedoes if there is no such dedicated torpedo-controller and if you want to avoid instant destruction of these things. So I don't see how it would be a better solution - it would only be more complicated because a new mechanic has to be introduced.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You're right here. This was a bug in the STFs, even before the Fleets, Reps, and LoR came about. It was a fairly uncommon one as well. I'm not sure if they ever actually diagnosed what the problem was here. But I do remember all the times I died due to this invisible torp bug. Since that's what it was. IT was a bug that caused the Borg HY torp or torp spread to become invisible. This allowed to bypass shield and hull and hit for the maximum potential.
Was it annoying, yes. But we didn't let it stop us.
Thanks @warpangel (and others) for a definitive answer.
TBR's used to be handy on say a science ship that may not have bfaw when dealing with borg targetable torpedos while in queues like CSA while right underneath a cube and otherwise occupied with other things (like staying alive and working towards popping the cube). I guess it did allow you to do 2 things at once.
It does seem not entirely right as the same TBR's can still do a fair amount of damage versus other things. Oh well. The borg can adapt so we'll have to as well and change our play style to accommodate these new game mechanics. Shame that the "balance pass" couldn't have been a bit more balanced in some areas
What happens is people watch the bar of the boss that allows the boss to be immune they use some of their CC to get the bar to drop to 0 and then once it's at 0 they can successfully CC the enemy.
It makes it possible to coordinate which is way better than brainless fire at will nonsense.