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Klingon Feudal Code Of Honor = Martok's Shame
brian334
Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
I posted in the announcement thread that I hope the Klingon honor code would be a part of the story in which Mr.Hertzler reprises his most famous role. In my post I opined that it would shame Martok and require Martok's family to endure three generations of dishonor, thus excluding his dead son from Sto'vo'kor. (And Lady Sirella too!)
This is explicitly stated by Worf in Birthright when he went to look for his father and discovered a Romulan prison housing 'dead' Klingons from Khitomer. The message is reinforced by the ending of the two-part story when the children of the Khitomer survivors must live with a lie in order to return to the Empire.
Others objected to this, citing that the Jem Hadar prison in which Martok was held did not disqualify him from ascending to the Chancellery, but in this case I argued that in that situation Martok had continued to fight and gather intelligence on an unknown enemy which proved valuable in defeating the Dominion. He could have had an honorable death at the hands of his captors, but chose to remain alive and fight to get useful knowledge back to his people, placing the welfare of the Empire above his own honor.
He does not have this excuse with Torg. He was captured alive, denied honorable death, and denied the opportunity to personally accept the shame and avoid further dishonor for his family via ritual suicide. He can gather no useful intelligence, and from all appearances he is being used as a lab rat by the Sona.
I also pointed out that Jm'pok, having ascended to the Chancellery through a lie, (whether he knew it was a lie or not,) was therefore similarly dishonored and his claim to the leadership of the High Council and the Klingon Empire is invalid.
When adding these facts together, it spells out trouble for the empire. The High Council is composed of untested heirs since the Iconian war, and that alone would invite discord as multiple lesser houses attempt to displace the current Great Houses or at least test the mettle of their new leaders while the heirs of the Great Houses make a grab at the Chancellery.
I don't object to Martok's return; I applaud it. I don't demand that Martok die, or that he be condemned to live out his life in seclusion on Boreth praying for his son's redemption. All I ask is that Klingon culture as it was presented in the shows be observed in the continuing story of the House Of Martok. After all, Martok has always been the example of what a Klingon should strive to be. Having played the role of Klingon Paladin throughout his life, to discard it now that he is on the other side of the honor code would be badly out of character.
I will allow others to state their case rather than presume to present the dissenting side of this argument. I created this thread because I believe there must be some way out which I can't see, but I did not want to derail the announcement post. Feel free to show me where I am wrong without worrying about hurting my feelings because I don't bring my feelings to the interwebs.
tldr: Martok's captivity means dishonor for himself and three generations of his family, and also invalidates Jm'pok's claim to the Chancellory. Plus, Lady Sirella is one hot butterface, but she shares Martok's dishonor.
This is explicitly stated by Worf in Birthright when he went to look for his father and discovered a Romulan prison housing 'dead' Klingons from Khitomer. The message is reinforced by the ending of the two-part story when the children of the Khitomer survivors must live with a lie in order to return to the Empire.
Others objected to this, citing that the Jem Hadar prison in which Martok was held did not disqualify him from ascending to the Chancellery, but in this case I argued that in that situation Martok had continued to fight and gather intelligence on an unknown enemy which proved valuable in defeating the Dominion. He could have had an honorable death at the hands of his captors, but chose to remain alive and fight to get useful knowledge back to his people, placing the welfare of the Empire above his own honor.
He does not have this excuse with Torg. He was captured alive, denied honorable death, and denied the opportunity to personally accept the shame and avoid further dishonor for his family via ritual suicide. He can gather no useful intelligence, and from all appearances he is being used as a lab rat by the Sona.
I also pointed out that Jm'pok, having ascended to the Chancellery through a lie, (whether he knew it was a lie or not,) was therefore similarly dishonored and his claim to the leadership of the High Council and the Klingon Empire is invalid.
When adding these facts together, it spells out trouble for the empire. The High Council is composed of untested heirs since the Iconian war, and that alone would invite discord as multiple lesser houses attempt to displace the current Great Houses or at least test the mettle of their new leaders while the heirs of the Great Houses make a grab at the Chancellery.
I don't object to Martok's return; I applaud it. I don't demand that Martok die, or that he be condemned to live out his life in seclusion on Boreth praying for his son's redemption. All I ask is that Klingon culture as it was presented in the shows be observed in the continuing story of the House Of Martok. After all, Martok has always been the example of what a Klingon should strive to be. Having played the role of Klingon Paladin throughout his life, to discard it now that he is on the other side of the honor code would be badly out of character.
I will allow others to state their case rather than presume to present the dissenting side of this argument. I created this thread because I believe there must be some way out which I can't see, but I did not want to derail the announcement post. Feel free to show me where I am wrong without worrying about hurting my feelings because I don't bring my feelings to the interwebs.
tldr: Martok's captivity means dishonor for himself and three generations of his family, and also invalidates Jm'pok's claim to the Chancellory. Plus, Lady Sirella is one hot butterface, but she shares Martok's dishonor.
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Without knowing the details of Martok's capture we can't say anything about how it affects his status within the empire. After all it would make little sense of a klingon who was captured thru a dishonorble plot he had no way of predicting would loose his honor, it's too easy "silver bullet" to get rid of your opponents.
Also why wouldn't Martok be able to gather useful intelligence on Torg, sure the enemy is internal and not an alien but intel on Torg's plots would be very useful to the high council.
As for J'mpok it's not unlikely that he and Martok could spin the whole thing as Martok only pretending to be capture in order to expose the full extent of Torg's betrail of the Klingon Empire. Remember dispite what Q might claim klingons are at least as intelligent as humans and are capable of making compromises for the sake of the empire.
The prisoners in the TNG episode were in a quite different position. They basically just gave up and fraternized with their captors. There return couldn't be triumphant in any way or form.
They had the opportunity to redeem their shame of captivity by suicide or by death in combat, but instead placed the needs of the empire above their personal honor, (which is always honorable!) There is as yet no evidence that Martok has gathered new information, but ample evidence in Cold Dishes that Martok is currently a plaything of his captors, denied the opportunity to resist captivity or redeem himself through ritual suicide.
In Birthright it is explicitly stated that the survivors of Khitomer were found wounded on the field of battle and denied the right to regain their honor through suicide. They were deemed to have lost their honor and thus were excluded from Klingon society and from Sto'vo'kor along with their descendants for three generations, (which Worf interprets as Moag, himself and Kern, and Alexander.)
As I said, though, you make compelling arguments. I will have to consider them carefully as I attempt to work my way through this upcoming story.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My character Tsin'xing
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Indeed
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My objection is to the potential ignoring of the very thing the Martok character exemplified as core beliefs of the Empire. I hope that the honor code as portrayed by Martok in Star Trek canon plays a major part in the upcoming storyline, but my fear is that it will be discarded as inconvenient or hard to explain, or just plain ignored.
In my opinion acknowledement of the existing lore of the Klingon culture would not only insure cultural continuity for those of us who portray Klingons in game, but create interesting plot points from which STO can hook story elements, conflicts, and character growth. Even if Martok comes home a hero, he should at the very least be shown to expunge the dishonor of his captivity. As a previous poster said, "Nothing is more honorable than victory." So long as it is achieved by an honorable warrior.
As for J'mpok he's intelligent enough to must have know that Torg was an unrelible ally at best, who would most likely betray J'mpok at the first opportunity he got for power to himself. There are countless ways how J'mpok could paint this as mutually agreed plot to expose House of Torg's dishonor and force them to fight in honorble combat rather then dishonorbly backstabing their enemies. Hell if J'mpok knew about Martok's inprisonment, which is highly likely that could have been his orginal plan, before the player an Alexander exposed the dishonor of the House of Torg (and destroyed a good chunk of it)
There's still much we don't know and without knowing those details he shouldn't be too quick to judge things, lest we loose our honor due to making false accusations.
Now when a chancellor dies then his successors use pain sticks to prove he is dead.
But death by combat seems to move it to the killer.
J'mpok has not shown himself to be exactly stupid, though Torg has. IE: Tal Shiar attempted to kill members of the council with cowardly bombs. Republic earns a measure of honour by one sacrificing himself to save them. So 'follows J'mpok's lead' and aligns with the tal shiar. . . . Yeah. His hate on for the house of Martok? Not a long term family of warriors. They are common farmers elevated to high status. So cowardly bombs to wipe them out. Where as J'mpok was allowing the right of blood to the house. And when they seemed to need help sends them a ship's captain to sort things out.
So one scenario I see working is Martok and J'mpok fought. J'mpok mortally wounded Martok and thought him slain. Torg took the body and had him healed. Martok stays alive so he can kill Torg himself and regain his honour.
J'mpok gets royally POed that an honourable opponent was treated so poorly that he targets Torg now instead of leaving them as rogues.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
We westerners have for generations been striving to eliminate 'guilt by association' as a crime, so we don't really think in those terms, but in most societies you are known by the company you keep. If Jm'pok cannot prove he did not know, there will always be some doubt as to his involvement, and he will be held as guilty as Torg by association.
His ascendency to the Chancellery is based on a lie. Whether he knew it to be a lie, (and at this point, how could he prove he did not?) is not relevant. The act which justified his ascension did not occur. His claim to the chair is invalid.
In every society there are hundreds of people who think they could rule better than the current ruler. There will be at least a few dozen who also have access to power. When hyenas find an isolated and wounded lion, no matter how powerful that lion was last week, they fall on it in a pack and kill it.
Some of Jm'pok's allies will abandon him lest thet become tainted by his dishonor, and others will see the the opportunity to take down the lion. Jm'pok could survive the coming struggle, but only at a high cost.
Prediction: (based on something someone else said) Jm'pok survives the ordeal by way of Martok's testimony, and Martok joins forces with him rto stabilize the Empire. It's not the ending I'd choose, it's just what I think the STO crew will do.
I think they have a few more twisty ones:
1) We have recently been playing with the timey whimey ball.
2) Protomatter resurrection.
3) One of the Martoks is a shape shifter. We know of at least three such species. Undine, Founders, Chameloid.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
My character Tsin'xing
Good grief. How many shape changing species are out there and no one has any experience dealing with?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Um yeah.... a LOT....
My character Tsin'xing
How is it moot? It is like watching an investigation story on TV. Guessing the twists is half the fun.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Im not sure I have faith enough in cryptic writers to actually expect them to do right by us... but here's hopin
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Indeed, there's tons of details we don't know about it yet. I'm willing to give the Cryptic writers the benefit of a dout as apart of the overly political and cartoonish main villain "Mirrors and Smoke" was good.
Anyone who has made up their mind that this will suck before even seeing the mission will find a way to be disapointed about it's just how things go. If you want to give yourself an honest opinion of the mission withhold your judgement until it's released.