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Please make Engineering captain abilities useful for the team!
renimalt
Member Posts: 219 Arc User
tl;dr: Please make Rotate Shield Frequency, Nadion Inversion, and Miracle Worker benefit the team somehow instead of being self-only. Suggestions:
With Season 13's renewed focus on PvP, the dynamics of how each captain profession contributes to a team should be looked at again. Right now, Tactical and Science captains mesh together really well and both feel like they contribute to any PvP team. Engineering captains, however, feel like a third wheel in most teams: their suite of captain abilities doesn't seem to benefit the team nearly as much as Tactical or Science captains' do. The biggest cause of that is that the majority of Engineering captain abilities do not benefit the team, as they cannot be used and will give no benefit to allies.
From the PvP that I've had, a team's success in PvP encounters really revolves around their ability to accomplish two tasks:
Let's compare how each captain's suite of abilities contribute to these two objectives:
To make Engineering captains fit better on teams, I have the following suggestions:
- Make them castable on allies.
- Make them a PBAoE effect like Scattering Field.
With Season 13's renewed focus on PvP, the dynamics of how each captain profession contributes to a team should be looked at again. Right now, Tactical and Science captains mesh together really well and both feel like they contribute to any PvP team. Engineering captains, however, feel like a third wheel in most teams: their suite of captain abilities doesn't seem to benefit the team nearly as much as Tactical or Science captains' do. The biggest cause of that is that the majority of Engineering captain abilities do not benefit the team, as they cannot be used and will give no benefit to allies.
From the PvP that I've had, a team's success in PvP encounters really revolves around their ability to accomplish two tasks:
- Attack the enemy team, through raw damage or by debuffing the enemy
- Defend their team, through healing, team buffs, and sometimes debuffing the enemy
Let's compare how each captain's suite of abilities contribute to these two objectives:
- Tactical captains are all about making successful attacks on the enemy team. They bring one debuff, Fire on My Mark, two self-only damage buffs, Attack Pattern Alpha and Go Down Fighting, and a team-wide damage buff, Tactical Fleet. Even though their primary damage buffs are self-only, tactical captains can direct their damage to whichever target the team is attacking; as most PvP encounters require teams to kill something to win, Tactical's damage buffs are always appreciated.
- Science captains help their team both attack and defend against the enemy.
- On offense, Sensor Scan and the buffed Scattering Field can both increase the entire team's damage against targets, while Subnucleonic Beam is the ultimate opener of any attack run as it can remove any buffs on a target.
- On defense, the buffed Scattering Field and Science Fleet are both strong defensive option; when a teammate is being attacked, the Science captain can use Science Fleet as well as activate Scattering Field and move close to provide both hull and shield resist. Even Subnucleonic Beam can be used as a defensive tool; if an enemy's damage-dealer is buffed up to make an attack run, a well-timed Subnucleonic Beam can strip away their buffs and render them toothless.
- Engineering captains, however, don't feel like they contribute significantly to either of the team objectives.
- On offense, EPS Power Transfer can improve a single ally's damage output, while Nadion Inversion can somewhat increase the Engineer's damage; however, both of these are weaker than what Science captains (via the buffed Scattering Field) and Tactical captains (via Attack Pattern Alpha and Go Down Fighting) can provide.
- On defense:
- Rotate Shield Frequency and Miracle Worker both seem like great tools to fend off an enemy attack, but they both suffer from one glaring flaw: they can't be used on teammates. In PvP, because players aren't subject to threat mechanics, the enemy team is under no obligation to attack the Engineer; if they attack one of the Engineer's teammates, the Engineer can't use either of these abilities to help the teammate in any way.
- Nadion Inversion, which could be used to defend against power drain abilities, can't be used to help teammates who are being drained for the same reason.
- The only real team defensive buff that Engineering captains bring is Engineering Fleet; even this doesn't provide the damage resistance that Science captains can bring via Science Fleet (EF's 40 bonus damage resistance = 29% hull damage resistance, while SF provides 40% shield damage resistance).
To make Engineering captains fit better on teams, I have the following suggestions:
- Make Rotate Shield Frequency, Nadion Inversion, and Miracle Worker castable on teammates, or:
- Rework Rotate Shield Frequency, Nadion Inverison, and / or Miracle Worker to provide their buff as a PBAoE effect like Scattering Field
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Such as a rework of how extend shields works. In that it could be toggled onto a target within a certain distance, and damage dealt to the target would be split between (or transferred to) the user's shield, and then healing done to either target could be applied to either or both of them in a varying percentage. Which it you had it also work with hull healing as well to a degree, than two fo the issues are dealt with, add in maybe a career specific version for engineers that is a pboe version with a shorter distance could help. Also adding in some traits that could give abit of verity to engineering career abilities might work too.
That said, I am not opposed. Making at least one more Engineering buff usuable on allies would certainly increase the potential value of Engineers to a team.
As the previous poster said, engineers' captain abilities can pretty much keep the ship alive since they have been buffed. Now engineers should be free to give away more heals.
The problem with this approach is that, in PvP, the Engineer may never actually need heals from his team: the other team can just go attack the squishy Tac or Sci players, and the Eng's self-heals will be sitting there unused. A Sci could at least give the attacked teammate a Scattering Field and a Science Fleet, while an Eng can only give an Eng Fleet.
As it stands, Eng has to generate enough "threat" without using most of their captain abilities to entice the enemy team to attack them so that they can use their abilities.
Except... when compared to what Sci offers in the buffed Scattering Field, it's not. The buffed Scattering Field will almost always be better at boosting a Tac's damage output than what EPS Power Manifold can offer.
On Tribble, at 125 Aux Power, my Sci captain's Scattering Field III offers 95.6 All Damage Resist and +28.1% Bonus All Damage. My Eng captain's EPS Power Transfer III gives +25 Max Power Levels. What does that +25 max power levels mean for damage output? Sophlogimo looked at the new weapon power scaling formula:
In other words, that +25 Max Power Levels is effectively only a +17% Energy Weapon Damage bonus from power levels. Don't forget: in order to get a damage boost from EPS Power Transfer, you'd have to already be at 125 power before so you can hit 150 power after: this means your energy weapon damage multiplier from power goes from 150% to ~167%, or an actual increase of 11.3%.
To put this in perspective, to have Scattering Field only actually increase your damage output by 11.3%, you'd have to already have +147% Bonus All Damage from other sources before getting the Scattering Field buff. [(100 + 147 + 28.1) / (100 + 147) = ~1.113] Don't forget, Scattering Field buffs all damage, while EPS Power Transfer only buffs energy weapon damage; torp bombers won't get anything from EPS Power Transfer, but they'll still benefit from Scattering Field.
EPS Power Transfer can be useful max out someone's shield / eng / aux power levels, but as a damage-increasing buff the new Scattering Field is much better.
But I don't really disagree that making the heals castable on someone else would make it even more team oriented. I just suspect it's a bit too much of a change to do it for all of them.
Even though Tactical is the most "self serving" class, a Tactical's self-only damage buffs still help the team achieve the objective of killing things; the Tactical captain gets to decide who and when to attack. The Engineer's self-only heals, on the other hand, don't help the team if the Engineer isn't being attacked.
Fundamentally, there's a difference between defense and offense in PvP: offense buffs can be self-only and still effective in teams, because you can control who you attack, but defense buffs have to be usable on teammates to provide team value, since you can't control who your enemy attacks.
This is an example of an Engineer having to generate enough PvP "threat" without using their captain skills, so that the enemy attacks them and they can use their captain skill. Neither of the other captain classes are so dependent on the mercy of who their enemies target.
Sophlogimo, not to put too fine a point on it, but that's unreasonable: it's like saying that "I'd rather not be nudged towards the damage-dealer role with my Tactical captains" or "I'd rather not be nudged towards the king-of-subnuke role with my Science captains". Each captain profession will always have a role that they're most suited for; the problem with Engineers is that their role is "the tank", which doesn't really work in an environment where teams can't control who gets attacked (i.e. PvP). Allowing Engineer's self-only buffs to be applied to the team opens up a new role for them that enhances their effectiveness in PvP.
(Of course, if you don't want to play the healer with an Engineer, you could always just ignore the captain abilities.)
Given that the self-healing skills improve based on your Hull Restoration and Shield Restoration skill, and those skills also improve your team-oriented boff heals, Engineers already have the strongest healer affinity of the three captain professions. Implementing the proposed changes won't make all Engineers into healers, but it'll give them the option of playing as that.
Also, as noted above, the "tank" role doesn't really exist in PvP, since you can't control who your enemies attack. Keeping Engineers pigeonholed in the "tank" role means they don't serve a purpose on PvP teams.
What you've described can be applied to any captain that ignores their captain abilities. But if Engineers can do well on a team by ignoring their captain abilities, they can do even better by being a Tactical or Science captain instead. As it stands, there's little reason to use an Engineer captain for PvP if you can bring a Tactical or Science captain with the same ship, gear, and boffs instead. That's not a good state for Engineers to be in.
If I understand you correctly, your argument rests on four points:
- Engineers already have a role: tanking.
- The proposed changes would force Engineers to become healers.
- Healers are useless in STO.
- Healers are not fun in STO.
Unfortunately, each of these points is either irrelevant or simply wrong.Your first point is irrelevant. I agree that Engineers' captain abilities already allow them to play a tanking role. My argument is that the role of "tank" is useless in STO's PvP encounters. In STO's team-based engagements, neither you (as an Engineer) nor your team can reliably force anyone on the enemy team to attack you; enemy players can (and will) go for the squishiest people on your team before they go after you. As it stands right now, Engineers' captain abilities don't make them a threat, and so most of the time enemy players will ignore them. The proposed changes will allow Engineers to step into a role that is more useful to the team.
Your second point is wrong. Giving Engineers the option to use their captain abilities on their allies would in no way force them to heal their allies. If you don't want to use Rotate Shield Frequency or Miracle Worker to heal your teammates, you can just let those abilities sit unused like they do today. Far from restricting how Engineers can play, the proposed changes add flexibility in how their kit can be used.
Your third point is wrong. Healers are a critical component of almost all PvP encounters that I've had in STO. Teams without a healer operate without a safety net; mistakes by your team or simple attacks by the enemy team can easily result in a teammate's death. A healer that can provide strong resists (like Rotate Shield Frequency) and strong heals (like Miracle Worker) forces your enemies to plan multiple strikes to exhaust the healer's resources, giving your team more time to disrupt their preparations and counterattack. Giving Engineers the ability to use their abilities on teammates would improve the team's ability to hold off enemy attacks.
Your fourth point is wrong. You can't make a blanket statement like that based only on your own experiences. You might not find playing as a healer fun or rewarding. I do. Give players the option decide for themselves if they like to play as healers or not, instead of locking them role which doesn't translate well into PvP scenarios.
Summing up, the proposed changes would increase the number of roles Engineer captains could play, and give them a role (heale r/ team support) that is well-suited for PvP instead of locking them into their current poor fit (tank).
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Sucking away attention from the real damage dealers may be an important job. How do the Engineer's captain abilities help with that when compared to what Tactical or Science can do? Tactical's captain abilities help them deal enough damage to be a threat that the enemy team has to deal with; Science's captain abilities debuff and control the enemy team, so the enemy team has to evaluate whether to kill the Science captains before they can unload their debuffs. Engineers? Their captain abilities help them absorb damage... which doesn't make them a threat that the enemy team has to deal with.
Once again, Engineer captain abilities don't help them play a useful team role in PvP nearly as much as Science and Tactical captain abilities would.
I'm sorry, I truly don't understand the argument you're trying to make then. Are you saying that you'd feel that the game would be {i]less[/i] fun if you were given more options on how to play a class? This seems absurd; from what I've seen, most people feel that having less options on how to play a class is what makes it less fun, and that more options on how to play a class make it more fun to play.
I suppose that our experiences have differed then. From what I've seen, healers are critically important for helping teams survive and win battles.
Allow me to clarify: you can make the statement. You'd just be wrong.
Your original claim was that healer roles are: You made an absolute statement regarding healer roles across all players and situations. Your claim is wrong if it fails to apply to any player or situation. It does not apply to me; I find healer roles very useful and fun to play. Therefore, your claim is wrong.
More generally, the proposed changes would increase the fun that at least some other players (e.g. me) would have. They wouldn't force you to change your current build. Unless you somehow think that giving other players more options makes the game less fun for you, then the changes would make the game more fun when considered across all users; this is a good thing.
Apologies; I should have clarified: Engineers' captain abilities do not directly help them play as a healer, which is a useful role for PvP teams. Making these abilities castable and / or AoE (or reworking them) would help Engineers play as a useful role in teams.
Sure, but that comes back to one of the original issues that I mentioned; to make use of your captain abilities, you have to be enough of a threat without using your captain abilities so that the enemy team decides to attack you. The enemy team is always free to ignore you, in which case your captain abilities will sit there unused.
Neither Tac nor Sci have this problem; the utility of their captain abilities is not wholly dependent on the choices their enemies make.
Again, an Engineer has to be a threat in spite of of their captain abilities. Tactical and Science captains are threats because of their captain abilities. Making Engineering captain abilities usable on teammates helps Engineering captains become threats because of the support they can give their teams from their captain abilities.