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Are Projectiles overpowered?
tilarta
Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
While discussing Projectile Weapons, the statement was made several times that they are overpowered and I should not be allowed to incorporate them into my build for that reason.
Personally, I doubt the objectivity of the players who made the claim, I think they were just reacting badly to the idea of a DPS increase.
Since I'd never actually done this and was only advancing hypothethicals without practical experience, I decided that more objective data was required.
So I decided to acquire some ingame test data on the Projectile Weapons I was discussing:
Based on the above data, are these projectiles overpowered.
Personally, I doubt the objectivity of the players who made the claim, I think they were just reacting badly to the idea of a DPS increase.
Since I'd never actually done this and was only advancing hypothethicals without practical experience, I decided that more objective data was required.
So I decided to acquire some ingame test data on the Projectile Weapons I was discussing:
Based on the above data, are these projectiles overpowered.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
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Can I tell them that the next time they get all overly defensive/aggressive about a projectile discussion?
To clarify, it isn't my opinion, it's other players who have said this and I'm just repeating what they have stated.
I'm still uncertain of why they find the idea of increasing DPS output objectionable, I thought doing more damage to NPCs was a desirable goal.
I should point out, I don't use the 10k builds, I just assemble whatever I feel like having on my ships that appeals to my style of gameplay.
Sure, I don't have a lot of DPS output, but I have fun and I think that's all that matters really.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Personally I would say projectiles are overpowered in that we kill NPC’s to fast. But projectiles are one of the weakest weapon systems in game which shows how overpowered everything else is. I would like to see combat more like Nexus the Jupiter Incident which is slower and more tactical.
You'd have to ask the players who objected.
Not that they really specified, all they said was "torpedoes are overpowered" "you aren't allowed to do this" and then some antagonistic comments after that.
Which is why I posted the stats in my first post, so opinions can be gathered as to whether my torpedo is overpowered or not.
The total figure for Torpedo Spread II is 2974 (7621).
555 (3353) impacted the shields, so I doubt they actually damaged the hull of the ship I was targeting.
2419 (4781) hit the hull directly.
The only specific information I have is if a single ship is doing damage output equivalent to 5 ships, then it's overpowered.
That's not my opinion, I read it somewhere on these forums.
There's also been mention of 10k and 15k clubs, my personal belief anyone who is a member of that group is overpowered.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
What I can say is those torpedo damage numbers you posted are extremely low and cannot be called overpowered.
As for 10k club being overpowered many years ago perhaps, but today I wouldn’t call the 10k club overpowered anymore. We have a people in the 75k and 100k+ club that’s when you arguably get into the overpowered club. I stopped doing 100k+ as everything was being killed to fast and stopped being fun. So now I take fun setups and aim for 50k to 70k. Without downgrading my equipment I don’t think I could even do under 10k, even then you can do over 10k without main ship weapons.
I was thinking that was the case.
So the next time someone gets argumentative about the fact a single unbuffed torpedo/torpedo spread 2 is going to make me overpowered, I should show them those numbers.
Is there a better way of acquiring ingame combat data though?
That information wasn't easy to extract.
I flew into a group of 3 Voth ships and 10 pages of infodump filled the screen in the first 10 seconds of the engagement.
I had to remove the smaller vessels and isolate the Bulwark specifically to cut down on the data being displayed.
Even then, it was still a lot of information, I had to resort to firing the torpedo or mine, getting out of combat and then scrolling through the combat log to screencap the data I was seeking.
To be honest, I have no idea what my regular damage rating is, so I couldn't say exactly what it is.
I don't use torpedos normally, my regular build is a beam array spec. One without FAW.
I prefer precision targeting, to focus all my beam arrays on a single target, not have beams firing randomly at any/all targets.
I don't enjoy drawing aggro from all ships in range.
We need more PvE torpedo damage.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
http://dps.shivtr.com/ Right hand side dropbox link and guide.
I can understand the beams, its rare for me to use beams but when I do I use DBB so everything is focused in a forward arc. More fun that way.
Even organised like this, there's still a fair amount of data.
Which one is used to determine to the rating everyone goes by?
I use single beam arrays, because I do a lot of orbit/broadside maneuvering.
I estimate only 50% of my beam arrays are firing at any given time, the other 50% aren't facing the target.
I did put a DBB setup on my Scimitar, but it requires me to keep the front of the ship facing towards the enemies.
But that's the experience I wanted, to play that ship a little differently from the others.
Also, I wanted practical experience with a forward facing build, as I may end up applying it to other vessels in the distant future.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
The reason is because all the advice is the same, remove all the consoles from your ship so there's nothing special about it and use a Battle Group Omega set.
I put ability granting sets on my ships to make them different in gameplay.
I think it would be boring to have every ship the same with no special abilities.
That's why I won't listen to anyone who starts with "get rid of all your consoles".
Additionally, I have to use the Voth spatial charge console as standard because it's the only way I know of to launch projectiles without removing one of my beam arrays.
I already know where I rank in ISA, it's always as the lowest player.
On the few occasions where someone feels the need to post the parser results at the end of the run, I'm always the last name on the list.
I assume it's ordered by damage output, the higher you are, the more damage you did during the match.
The only reason I provided the DPS data in my prior post is because I couldn't interpret it very well and am hoping someone else can explain it.
And I wanted clean data, with no other players taking out the targets before I could, which is why I used a solo map to record the combat log.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
My best tac's ship build looks absolutely "nothing" like the advice your getting, and she is brutal in the dps category.
That's if they're polite about it, if they're not, expect me to logoff immediately so I don't have to deal with them.
Some of that is on the forum, but since I wasn't paying it much attention, I don't recall what topics raised the issue all the time.
And not all of it was in STO, some of it was in Champions Online too.
There are some things I can remember though, like someone saying to ditch the Scimitar set because I should be using those console slots for armor consoles.
Someone else said I shouldn't be using the Breen ship set because it was inferior to the Battle Group Omega sets.
I made these choices for a reason, sometimes practical, sometimes for fun, so asking me to give up using the items is just going to annoy me.
I know there's probably other consoles that emulate torpedoes, but I picked the Voth one because I like it best.
It's very similar to a torpedo spread, which was why I chose it.
My Sovereign class has the Metreon Gas Launcher.
I didn't equip that for the projectile specifically, I needed the entire set to get Battle Cloak.
But since I had the console skill, I figured I may as well use it.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Transphasic can work, I had a built that could do some meaningful damage but anyone with a halfway decent cannon or beam built could out dps me easily if they were half awake. The cluster torp in particular can be real mean when it crits but that alone wont make your built OP.
E'Mc2 : Science Reman torp T'Varo, deadly annoyance :P
Kunmal: Tactical fed Klingon, ground specialist, USS Kanewaga
Ka -tet Tier 5 fleet fully completed Starbase and fleet property
Even on my Quantum build I still use 1 cluster.
All my weapons skillpoint allocation went into beam arrays and naturally, there's no points allocated to projectiles.
The only thing I have that affects their damage is Superconducting Phase channels (+30.5 Transphasic Projectile Damage).
At the time, I was using a pair of regular transphasics torpedoes (the Breen or rapid fire ones didn't exist at that time) and thought acquiring the set bonus to increase their damage output would be useful.
And I just kept using the set afterwards because I find cryonic syphon fun to zap enemy NPCs with.
Basically, firing Torpedo Spread 2 is just fireworks to me, something fun to do because it's always done in the show.
But I don't think it would be practical to give up a beam array just to see torpedo spreads all the time, which is why I haven't done it.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
alright I'm gonna be blunt here, if your build is bad enough that the the lost of a single beam in favor of a torp majorally weakens it you need to redo it anyway. I use two torps on pretty much everything, even raiders and sci ships with their limited weapons and can do pretty much any content in any of them except elite stuff which I'm not interested in away.
and if your that worried about it use the entoiled technology set from echos of light. torp is disruptor so it's boosted by disruptor boosting effect. the rest of the set is pretty good
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Yes, you are correct, I don't have difficulty playing the game.
My DPS output is low, but my healing skills can at least keep me in the fight long enough to defeat my enemies.
And I don't necessarily think it's bad, just that it's not top level, whatever that is.
By the way, still waiting for someone to interpret the DPS report I provided so I can actually know where I stand.
The way I see it, with a spec designed specifically to boost beam/antiproton damage and nothing in use to boost projectile/transphasic damage (except for the single Breen buff mentioned earlier), projectiles are always going to be inferior to beam arrays on my ships.
I don't think trading a good weapon for an ineffective weapon is practical, especially when my only interest in having a torpedo is for cosmetic reasons, not damage output.
As a side issue, I find it annoying that the 3rd piece of most sets is always a torpedo, it's like saying, you don't get to complete your set because we've linked it to an item you won't use!
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
From a purely DPS logic prospective your 4k DPS is terrible far worse than low and 8 deaths on that mission is considered very high. I don’t mean to sound nasty let me explain. You got 4k which wouldn’t even gain you access to the old 5k DPS club which was considered the baseline. After all the power creeps the 5k club got scrapped and the baseline start is now 10k. The majority of max level players fall into the 10k club and a large number make it past 30k.
Your DPS is that low it’s considered too low to do advance or Elite content. But should be ok for normal class content. Like I said I don’t mean to sound nasty and you have enough DPS for the basic story missions but I would bet playing Elite would be a frustrating experience with that low damage. Doing some of the high end missions with everyone in the group doing 4k is very difficult if not impossible.
So if you are sticking to normal and having fun then I wouldn't worry about your DPS. If you plan on joining advanced and Elite combat I would aim for at least 10k.
Completely disregard the deaths field, it's wrong.
I didn't die once during that ISA run, so no idea why the report states that it happened!
I do Advanced Queues because it's necessary to obtain the Reputation token.
I don't do Elite, not interested.
As for the 3 set bonus, as I stated, it's mostly for fun, I see something that would be interesting, if not practical and want to have it.
It's been so long since I looked at projectile dependent sets, I can't even recall what I was looking at/for.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
I think the logs are still present on my hard drive, so I could easily just have something else analyze the statistics again.
If you know of something else to try, feel free to offer suggestions.
That's the reason I initially tried a solo run somewhere, so I could get my combat data without other players' stats causing interference.
I'm always a bit wary of the players who measure effectiveness by DPS, I think it's elitist and should not be tolerated.
A secondary reason is I've grown bored of players who think it is necessary to give me a prolonged lecture on how to remake my build because "I am not doing enough DPS".
Also, I'm confused because of the torpedo conflict I alluded to with the start of this post, most players I talked said I need more DPS, but then others say I can't have more DPS?
I am not up for getting into that debate publicly again at this point, since it ended badly the first two times I raised it.
But if you want to know the cause of the dispute, I wouldn't mind telling anyone who is curious as to what it was privately.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
You only need more DPS if you want to do Elite. As you said you are happy and don’t want to do Elite don’t worry about more DPS and don’t listen to any players telling you to change. If you joined Elite I would think it’s fair for other players to say you are not doing enough as 10k just isn’t effective enough to achieve the mission goals before the timers run out which has a high chance to cause the mission to fail. But at normal and advanced 10k is perfectly reasonable.