Point blank: Go Down Fighting, and the interactions it has with some traits and specializations, is pretty much THE issue in PVP.
The original design of Go Down Fighting is a really cool Tactical ability with appealing thematic flavor. However, it has become problematic to the point of gamebreaking in terms of PVP for the following interactions:
- Last Ditch Effort, a lockbox space trait that adds 100% damage resistance to Go Down Fighting.
- A Good Day to Die, a lockbox space trait that allows use of Go Down Fighting at any hull strength.
- Invincible, the lockbox ship trait that makes you unkillable for 8 seconds, as well as granting a 50% bonus to both hull and should healing.
- Continuity, the Temporal specialization ability that teleports you 8km away from danger when you're at 10% hull, which loses any downside with Adaptation II.
Combine this with Attrition Warfare from the Strategist specialization, which drastically reduces Captain and BOFF shield and hull heals while in threatening stance, it makes even the most mediocre of Tac captains all but immortal in a PVP situation. Whether we're talking about the build on Holodeck or the current build on Tribble, there is virtually no substantive risk involved with Go Down Fighting, and nothing but a gamebreaking stack of rewards given in return.
As is stands, when GDF is combined with all of the above, you've created a situation where anyone in PVP who isn't a Tactical captain with a Battle Cloak-capable ship is playing wrong. That's indefensible from a game design/gameplay perspective no matter how anyone tries to justify it.
It is logical to want to protect Tactical player investments of time and money, and it is logical that Cryptic doesn't want to hurt their bottom line by discouraging Tac captains from buying lockbox keys to get traits you've created. But quite frankly, you can't punish two out of three player career choices while doing so, that is not logical. I am extremely appreciative of the sincere efforts you're currently putting in to fixing the PVP situation, but they will all be in vain if you don't fix the total mess that is Go Down Fighting and it's host of God Mode interactions.
You guys are beyond clever enough to fix this. Please wow us with your talents and do so.
[/quote]
I disagree, I know of engineering captains that will give 99.9% of tac players in this game a run for their money as is the case with sci. Your talking more from a perspective of a pver, in terms of pvp its somewhat different and I find it somewhat frustrating that the nerfs are wrapping every power in wool, but I appreciate that they want new unexperienced players to pvp. The roles were intended for eng to support and sci to debuff but both can be made to dps, albeit not to the levels of a tac but they have their uses in pvp. [/quote]
No, I'm speaking from the perspective of an Engineer who PVPs (read: I AM one of those engineers that give Tac captains a run for their money).
You seem to be projecting your shortcomings as a poor Tac captain who needs to be wrapped in the wool of broken exploits to do well, but you and others like you should really stop doing that. You're making other people feel embarrassed for you, as well making good Tac captains look bad.
Edit: Reply in bold since forum formatting has sunk to new lows of being broken.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
Where shield by-passing and penetration effects are concerned their is quite a nice method of dealing with it. Such as giving some of the different abilities we can use both boff, and career specific ones that weaken or counter the effect for a duration. Like maybe that epts might give a short duration reduction to incoming penetration/bypassing effects, while the engineering career rotate shield frequency could completely negate any shield/hull penetration an bypassing effect for it's duration.
@darkbladejk I obviously didn't make my intentions clear.
I know it's unfair to make such drastic changes that'll affect PvE as well as PvP which is why I said and quote: "All @crypticspartan#0627 and @borticuscryptic need to do now is fix immunity granting traits and powers by either locking them out in a PvP scenario and battlezone or give them a big disadvantage in proportion to the huge advantage they provide."
I specifically stated "locking them out in a PvP scenario" implying that the fix would only apply in PvP but not in PvE.
You've already gotten the nerf you want by them putting a 15 second lockout on the immunities. Until the devs draw a clear line between pvp and pve, the nerfs you're asking for in pvp will effect the rest of us in the pve community and that's not fair to either side. As for immunities themselves, I get that you don't like them but they are a legitimate tactic and ability that can be used in pvp. I absolutely agree they shouldn't be spammable in situation like that but you're not answering a few other questions you need to answer when dealing with balance in a game. Assuming they went with the disadvantage option, what type of further disadvantage would you have them introduce? As for locking them out in a pvp scenario, why should they do that? Whether you like it or not they're part of the game and are a legitimate tactic to use in a pvp situation. I absolutely agree they shouldn't be spammable back to back, but to deny the ability to use them outright I absolutely do NOT agree with. If someone has said ability why should they not be allowed to use it? This isn't a game like Magic the Gathering or Hearthstone where you're just banning certain cards, what you're talking about is locking out an entire subset of abilities, which would be like banning the color blue outright in MTG as a comparison. As much as I despise blue in MTG I'm not going to advocate for the color to be banned from use.
To put this in World of Warcraft terms, these new queues are like unranked battlegrounds. In those battlegrounds anything goes. All abilities are there for use. What you're advocating would be another mode entirely which would equate to Rated Battlegrounds or Arena game modes. In those modes like Arena, several abilities are restricted and such. The most fair solution would be to implement different modes of pvp in this situation. An anything goes mode similar to unranked or standard battlegrounds, and another mode similar to Arena. Simply because you don't like an ability doesn't mean it should be allowed to be used at all across the entire mode of pvp.
As for your comments on the elite queues in PvE, I agree that they are harder than something like ISA. I know because I've puged Hive elite and Korfez elite successfully (only a handful of times) and it's tougher than advanced queues, but it's not because the opponents are better it's simply because they are more of an HP sponge and there's substantialy more of them. To survive I just did some speed tanking in my eclipse and spammed FAW with TS3. I didn't even have to use EPtS, I used EPtW instead and tied everything to the spacebar.
The debate wasn't if the enemies were better in Elite, only that defensive powers were needed or not. Your original statement below says:
It's not fair to promote build variety when there are no disadvantages to a particular build because that's the build everyone will use. And it's not fair to the PvP community by allowing players to run around without needing to use any defensive abilities or equipment to protect themselves by simply slotting a trait.
It's fine in PvE (don't know why anyone needs it tbh, nothing in PvE is dangerous enough to warrant the need for immunities) but it's woefully overpowered in PvP.
Please fix it.
There are plenty of disadvantages to running with immunities in your build just as there are plenty of benefits. In my instance I play as a tank in space. I purposefully build my ships with being the one under fire in mind. For every immunity I pick up is another healing power, damage power, or support power I could pick up. If I'm not being pushed to the point those immunities are firing, they're doing nothing for me and are pretty much dead weight. Immunities are a safety net meant to give you a chance to survive but do NOT guarantee that you will. Your original statement above said that folks don't need defensive powers if they're running the immunities which simply isn't true. If you're going to come back now and try to debate it from the side of the enemies being better, then the goal post and the original argument has changed. The original debate was defensive powers being needed at all based on the above statement, and I gave you examples of them being needed. Now it appears the goal post has changed.
As difficult as you think that may be it's not the same as fighting another player, especially if they have an advantage over you.
In PvE you don't have to counter buff, clear your debuffs, make difficult choices between abilities like science team or TSS as a shield heal, tank incoming alpha strikes and spike damage, timing your heals so that you don't heal too soon, cope with faster more agile opponents while another player is stripping your buffs or sacrificing attack and rely more on good timing and patience for kills in exchange for a bit more defence.
I never stated it was the same as fighting another player nor even insinuated as such. All I did was give you examples of when and where defensive powers are still needed in pve situations after you stated there was no need for such powers. In pvp having an advantage does not automatically guarantee someone a win. I can't tell you the number of times in my pvp heavy days in World of Warcraft I went up against someone that was my "anti-class" and came out with a win. Several times as a Death Knight in WoW I went up against Rogues or Mages, which are 2 classes that were supposed to have major advantage over my class and I won. In STO I've also gone up against folks who severely outgeared by having all mk xiv epics, where as not even half of my stuff was ultra rare yet and I've won. The equipment and the abilities are only part of the equation. In pvp or pve, it's about 20% gear, skill setup, specializations and abilities, and the other 80% is purely on the pilot. In the past I've gone up against a crew of folks I used to run with in a 2 vs 7 and my team prevailed. Now we can argue all day long about skill level of those players, but by the logic you're using, I should've gotten slaughtered. Instead I played smart as did my teammate and we won.
PvP is like a dance, and whoever dances the best in that situation is the one that takes the win. Even if you have the best dancing equipment in the world, best costume, best everything, you can still be out-danced by the other person who knows their equipment better than yours. With anything in pvp there is always something that counter the other thing. Now clearing debuffs and reapplying buffs isn't as common in pve as it is pvp but it can still happen. To be perfectly blunt about it, you can die just as easily in pve as you can in pvp if you run off half cocked like a jackass not paying attention to what you're doing, or if you get tunnel vision.
I agree that 15 seconds in PvP is a long time but you have to remember that a successful alphastrike for a build like mine that runs zero cheese relies heavily on timing by launching torpedoes and hitting them with a BO2 or CRF2 just before the torpedoes hit to secure the win. All of that has to happen with 2-3 seconds from me dropping my cloak, when I don't get it right (which is probably 60-70% of the time) I will be in a long fight where I will have to time my buffs and attacks with good piloting to bring the player down and by that time someone will likely turn up to help my opponent. And usually my cheeseless build simply can't overpower or apply enough pressure damage to bring the opponent down, I either have to wait for them to make a mistake or carefully control my health so I can bring GDF into play at the risk of being alphastriked myself. This requires skill.
With immunities however, I don't have to worry about slotting neutroniums, or using 2 tactical teams or using science team and EPtS. I can just slot every console and ability I can find to boost my damage and not have to worry.
Do you see the problem?
Why should players bother to invest in defence if a couple of traits will do it all for them??
If your build and strategy is being countered that badly by someone having immunities that tells me one of several things, you need to adjust your build accordingly, adjust your strategy accordingly, or both. What I'm gathering from this is that immunities are part of your "anti-class" so to speak. In WoW when my Arena team came against a team composition designed to counter us, we adjusted our strategy from our norm and played accordingly. I would say about 60% of the time it worked, 40% of the time it didn't. For your GDF issue, A Good Day To Die will solve the issue of having to drop your health down in order to utilize GDF since you can use it at any time.
I see a problem, though not one you're thinking. No offense but to be perfectly blunt, what I see is that you're coming up against a type of ability that is designed to counter your type of build and strategy. Instead of changing your strategy and/or build, you're wanting it nerfed or removed. As I said above, using immunities is a fair tactic. I absolutely agree allowing them to be spammed is OP and doesn't need to be a thing, just like a 0% GDF doesn't need to be a thing. However to deny the use of immunities or a low percent GDF at all is flat out bad design.
Those players still have to invest in some type of defensive powers otherwise they would just die the moment their immunity disappears. You're placing way too much value on immunities when there's far more to pvp than just that.
Finally in terms of the double kill disadvantage, look at what happens with Blaze of Glory vs your regular immunity. In Blaze of Glory you're already dead and coming back to life for a short time, so I absolutely understand why that counts as a second kill. Immunities like Thick of It from Pilot, Invincible, and Continuity, prevent the death from occuring in the first place, and as such don't give a second kill since the target hasn't died yet. Under the new system you should perhaps consider running something like SubNuc Carrier Wave from Intel as that purges several buffs from the enemy and would probably prioritize the immunities over other buffs.
There are ways around virtually everything in pvp, sometimes it just requires some outside the box thinking.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
So you're saying that my build and my tactics are the problem... I agree! I don't use the current meta of FAW, spacebar and immunities. I go toe to toe against people who are using broken equipment to have an unfair advantage over me and others who can't afford those traits while we try to have a fair fight. You're saying that immunities are there to counter alphastrikes and heavy hits. No, alphastrikes and vapes could be countered before DR, but it took skill. Immunities take skill away from the game and give it to the person with the biggest wallet.
My build is a countervape/support build that can alphastrike if I get my timing right (which I rarely do). I built my ship to counter alphastrikes, vapes by using a combination of abilities, like cycling EPtE1 and EPtS2 to boost my defence and resistance, 2 tactical teams and APD, relying on quick reactions and manoeuvring to absorb the vape (in a t5u fleet Defiant, hardly a tough ship) and then take down the target before he can escape. That took skill. It took skill on their part to hold me off. I've had battles that have lasted 5-10minutes against 2 players and didn't have to rely on immunities. Now, however, I could just get immunities, go damage heavy by getting rid of neutroniums to protect my hull and put something else there to boost my damage, replace EPtS with EPtW2, use DBR instead of ST, I could probably throw HE away too, I won't need tactical team or APD too because I'll be able to blow tanks up and let the immunities keep me alive.
See the problem? It's a bit like you playing competitive bowling against someone and they're insisting on having the barriers up in their lane while you and your team are doing it properly without barriers. Then you loose and they boast about winning.
I've beaten players with immunities, as rare as it is I have beaten a couple but it takes me having to use ramming speed because there's no way for me to hold off a fully attack focused build so I have to ram them just before they take me out because I can't win otherwise. Even then immunities kick in most of time I've rammed players and I lost while they don't take any damage.
P.S. My "anti-class" would be science not tac captain escorts. But seeing as this games favours only Tac what's the point in being something else? It's DPS or get out at the moment. And I don't like that. Other classes and builds must be viable too.
I firmly agree that engineer rotate shield frequency should negate shield bleedthrough as it does in actual star trek. Since this game is based on the shows, then rotate shield frequency should be an actual rotate shield frequency, not another transfer shield strength without the immediate heal but with a drain res.
There's no point making shield buffs better when most dmg seems to bypass Shields anyway. This isn't going to be game breaking because we've already got tactical and science that use abilities that either ignore Shields or deal massive shield bleedthrough with the stack of traits that offer 50% bleedthrough.
Ok, radical thought: maybe the Devs could just turn down the raw damage bonus of Attack Pattern Alpha? To +30% instead of +50%. Possibly bringing the duration back up slightly (similar bonus, less spike damage...). Really, Tactical captains will still be the boss of everything, but you could narrow the margin a little and create a more manageable baseline for comparison when trying out ideas like Deflector Overcharge.
Its OK to turn down the damage players put out. There's a couple sacred cow burgers that should be grilled and served with chips to make pretty much every game mode a little more interesting...
Speaking of which, has anyone parsed the new BFAW now that the accuracy penalty is actually hooked up? Is the Acc penalty still meaningless in PvE or might we finally see a shift in the Exchange's complete disdain for [Acc] weapons?
So you're saying that my build and my tactics are the problem... I agree!
I don't use the current meta of FAW, spacebar and immunities. I go toe to toe against people who are using broken equipment to have an unfair advantage over me and others who can't afford those traits while we try to have a fair fight.
You're saying that immunities are there to counter alphastrikes and heavy hits. No, alphastrikes and vapes could be countered before DR, but it took skill. Immunities take skill away from the game and give it to the person with the biggest wallet.
With your last sentence of this part of your post I'm seeing where this wanting to nerf immunities is coming from, the perspective that it's a wallet warrior type ability and shouldn't be allowed because the average player may not be able to afford those traits. I'll address that in just a moment but first it's obvious to me there's a few things you're forgetting when it comes to this game. Virtually any ship in game can be made to do great damage and be made to survive no matter the captain type. Now there are certain ships that will lend more advantages to a certain type of build than others, and certain captains that will lend more advantages, but that's where what is "best" ends. I've made a tank out of my Aquarius escort before and it's performed rather well in the survival and damage departments. You could make a power drain build using Antiproton beams and it would work, but would be woefully underpowered compared to using Polarons.
A ship is only as good as its pilot. In this game it's about 20% equipment, skills, setup etc, the other 80% is on the pilot. For about 5 years the Galor was my bread and butter ship. It wasn't until the Keldon came to the PC that I was finally able to upgrade my flagship to tier 6. So until that infinity box cycle that gave us the Keldon about 6 months ago, I was still rocking a t5 ship in pvp and in post DR content. In that time frame I can't tell you the amount of time I came across folks that had the latest shiny item or the latest ship at the time that just could not keep up with my Galor. If you take the time to get to know your ship well enough, and take time to plan accordingly, you can pull off crazy feats even with ye old t5 ships. Heck even some of the t4s can reasonably keep up in today's game.
Simply because one has the latest shiny ability or ship in game does NOT automatically guarantee them the win. That 2 vs 7 pvp match I told you about was while I was in that Galor. If you know in a pvp situation you're at a disadvantage, that's when you want to bring your brains into play more than anything. Myself and friend knew going in we were outnumbered, and knew there would be a decent amount of firepower coming at us at all times. The only immunity I had in that entire fight was the Thick of It immunity from Pilot that lasts all of 4 seconds and goes on a 45 second lockout. This means that in terms of that ability's timer I have about 8% up time in terms of duration. This means the other 92% of the time, or 41 seconds I am vulnerable.
As for what is "broken" I absolutely agree spamming immunities back to back is OP, however the concept of an immunity itself is not. Immunities are safety nets and nothing else. Under this new system if someone has a SubNuc type effect all they have to do is purge it. If that's not available then right after their immunities have worn off is when you would want to strike before they can get too much health back.
Now for the "wallet warrior" aspect. STO is one of the only true free to play games out there. I have the better majority of ships from the Cstore as well as at least 1 lockbox and/or lobi ship on every single one of my 14 high level characters. I also own most of the event ships we've had as well with a select few being unowned. I also own an Annorax, a Universe, and TOS t6 Constitution class. Point being my collection of ships isn't cheap. In fact my main toon has reached the maximum number of ship slots you can have on a toon. Now while I've dropped a good chunk of change on the game, in terms of entertainment value I have gotten back from the game, I consider it an investment well spent. Now with that ship collection I have a large variety of abilities to draw from as well as potential builds I could set up. Despite having all of these things that also includes a decent set of gear for each ship I own, a free to play player can have every single thing I have without ever having to put a penny into the game. It's going to take them longer to get it and it will be a grind, but they can indeed do it. I absolutely believe there are some abilities and ships that are way overpriced, but point being those abilities and ships can still be picked up by folks. With my 14 high level toons I can rake in 112k dilithium per day for a total of 784k dilithium per week. At an exchange rate of 290 dilithium to zen that's about 2700 zen in a week. All of that dilithium can be earned by spending about 10-20 minutes per toon in the Dyson Ground Battlezone the way I get my dilithium. There are even faster methods you can use as well. Point being you can get anything you want, you just may have to work for it a bit.
My build is a countervape/support build that can alphastrike if I get my timing right (which I rarely do). I built my ship to counter alphastrikes, vapes by using a combination of abilities, like cycling EPtE1 and EPtS2 to boost my defence and resistance, 2 tactical teams and APD, relying on quick reactions and manoeuvring to absorb the vape (in a t5u fleet Defiant, hardly a tough ship) and then take down the target before he can escape. That took skill. It took skill on their part to hold me off. I've had battles that have lasted 5-10minutes against 2 players and didn't have to rely on immunities.
Now, however, I could just get immunities, go damage heavy by getting rid of neutroniums to protect my hull and put something else there to boost my damage, replace EPtS with EPtW2, use DBR instead of ST, I could probably throw HE away too, I won't need tactical team or APD too because I'll be able to blow tanks up and let the immunities keep me alive.
By your own admission you're not getting your timing right with your build so that's the very first thing I would work on. Practice and keep practicing some more until you can do it purely from muscle memory or with very little thought. Since you were also kind enough to provide the ship you're using which is a t5u fleet Defiant now I know what ship base you're working with. It doesn't have the boff seating to slot too many defensive powers but I've still seen Defiants that can easily keep up with my Keldon and be right there with me in the thick of combat.
I've had battles that have ended quickly and battles that have taken ages with and without immunities. In terms of neutroniums, with as many sources of damage resists that are available in game today, you don't need neutroniums unless you absolutely want them. Even then I don't run more than one armor console, very rarely using 2 of them due to the stupid high diminishing returns. In terms of my immunities that I get from Pilot, I don't need them in order to tank or do my job. If that one single ability is what's always making or breaking you then you have more problems with your strategy and setup than just that ability. Real skill is being able to play around any and all abilities in the game no matter the hand you're dealt. I've had battles that have come down to whoever hits their weapons cycle first as well.
See the problem?
It's a bit like you playing competitive bowling against someone and they're insisting on having the barriers up in their lane while you and your team are doing it properly without barriers. Then you loose and they boast about winning.
The problem I see is you're being countered and instead of trying to play around it you're complaining and demanding it be removed instead of coming up with a strategy to get around it. If you know your current build and strategy isn't working then change it up otherwise you're going to get the same results by repeating the same strategy over and over.
I've beaten players with immunities, as rare as it is I have beaten a couple but it takes me having to use ramming speed because there's no way for me to hold off a fully attack focused build so I have to ram them just before they take me out because I can't win otherwise. Even then immunities kick in most of time I've rammed players and I lost while they don't take any damage.
P.S. My "anti-class" would be science not tac captain escorts. But seeing as this games favours only Tac what's the point in being something else? It's DPS or get out at the moment. And I don't like that. Other classes and builds must be viable too.
Actually an anti-class is anything that is designed to counter your strategy/build and isn't restricted to being purely science captains. I've gone against science captains as well in pvp and I've prevailed even though I primarily play as a tac captain. Sometimes an anti-class in terms of STO can be another tac captain with a certain build, or a science captain. For the immunities by your own admissions, sounds like you've found your anti-class.
As for your example of ramming speed, why for the love of all things holy if you know someone is using immunities have you not made sure their immunity is on cooldown BEFORE you use an ability like that. That one was purely on you and not the immunity.
Unless you're advocating that they include a mode like World of Warcraft Arenas where certain abilities and such are restricted or can't even be used, then all items and abilities are fair game in a pvp situation. Simply because you don't like them doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be used. I personally despise (or despised now) going against feedback pulse but I learned to play around it in the mean time. Simply because you view immunities as unfair does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to be used. Per a previous example of mine, in Magic the Gathering I absolutely despise playing against blue decks as I believe more often than not they're given alot of cheap and OP cards to use that suck the fun out of it. However I'm not out here demanding that blue be removed from the game entirely.
Immunities are a fair tactic and ability set to use and draw from. They're not required to succeed and simply having them does NOT guarantee a win in a pvp situation. I absolutely agree immunity spam is OP and doesn't need to be a thing. However I do NOT agree they need to be removed from PVP outright.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
The fact of the matter is that it's not just me complaining about immunities. Yes, I don't always get my timing right, and my build relies very much on timing because I've made my ship an allrounder to make it more versatile, but when I do get the timing right, when I bring my opponents shields down with a BO2 and CRF2 and get a direct HY3 hit on a moving target with buffs and their health goes from 100% to 0 and then goes back up to 50% or more within 3 seconds, it kinda throws all of my skill out of the window.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the whole get with the times and change things up to stay in play but the current state of play is frankly wrong.
I see escorts and pilot ships in Ker'rat taking on 4-5 players at a time with some being science ships. That shouldn't be possible. Before DR the most you'd ever see an escort take on is 2 players successfully, any more and their dead. The jemhadar bug could handle 3 jut about but took skill to stay alive. With immunities however... And it's not like they're using defensive abilities. Their traits and spec tree are taking care of it all.
I've been PvPing since before LoR and I got good at season 8 when I gained an understanding of the game and built my ship according to what I wanted it to be. I've gone toe to toe with T'varos when they were the rage, I've taken on bug ships and came out the victor, I could successfully take on 2 vapers and send them packing. I remember taking my tal Shiar destroyer into C&H a few times for the fun of it with a single cannon build and successfully fight off bug ships and vapers in on particular instance while throwing out a few heals to my team.
It's not like I don't know how to PvP. It's the fact that the meta is broken. Why do you think so many PvPers have left? Why do you think players like Bauklotz and Corbin are so successful now? Before DR they sucked and were constantly running from battle after failed vapes. Its because the meta caters to them. It caters to the trolls that want maximum damage and destruction with 0 effort. Which is stupid and boring.
How am I supposed to pick out one immunity buff or a buff full stop out of a string of 20-30 buffs!? It used to be tricky before DR and you had to be quick, now you have to be the flash!
Don't get me wrong, I have beaten players with Zhal and other immunity traits, but it's usually been 3, 4 or 5v1 against my opponent and that is unfair and doesn't make for a good time for anybody.
Well, my AOY Temporal Recruit, started on July 12th with the start of the 150% Bonus XP Week was level 60 by July 19th. Had maxed out all Specializations by the beginning of October. 50 to 60 took less than two days. Of course the Bonus cut time down but Admiralty, Doffing, and those Temporal and Terran Investigative Assignments also helped immeasurably.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The fact of the matter is that it's not just me complaining about immunities.
Yes, I don't always get my timing right, and my build relies very much on timing because I've made my ship an allrounder to make it more versatile, but when I do get the timing right, when I bring my opponents shields down with a BO2 and CRF2 and get a direct HY3 hit on a moving target with buffs and their health goes from 100% to 0 and then goes back up to 50% or more within 3 seconds, it kinda throws all of my skill out of the window.
There's always going to be folks complaining about something in this game, or any game for that matter so this is nothing new. A ship in this game that tries to do more than 1-2 things effectively becomes a jack of all trades and master of none. With my ships such as my Keldon, I built it with survival in mind and DPS second. It focuses on staying alive first by drawing on a ton of defensive powers, and then focuses on making its weapons as damaging as possible. From what I'm gathering of your statement is you're trying to do too many things at once with your ship. In this current state of the game, it's safe to assume that everyone has at least one immunity and to play accordingly. No offense but your statement just screams, bad timing and poor planning, to me. From your statements this gives me the picture that you're blowing all of your offensive powers at once and not making sure their immunity is down first. Once you force the immunity you have about 15-60 seconds before you see another one. Once that first immunity goes off is when you want to strike before another one can be deployed. From your statements, you're pushing the immunities but once you get past the immunity you're out of steam because you dropped your full damage load already. That's not skill going out the window, that's needing to plan better than what you are. Sometimes in pvp the risk of using full abilities will pay off, sometimes it won't. pvp is a fickle beast at best.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the whole get with the times and change things up to stay in play but the current state of play is frankly wrong.
Based off what you've said in your past several replies I must respectfully question whether you actually understand that concept or not. From everything I've seen so far, you know immunities are something that's been giving you grief in pvp, and you know your timing isn't what it should be, yet you're not practicing to nail the timing in your sleep, nor are you adjusting your build and strategy to compensate for the immunities until something is done to address them. As I've said prior I absolutely agree that being able to spam immunities is OP and needs to go the way of the Dodo bird. As for what is wrong or right, what is right is everything having some type of a counter. We can debate at how effective those counters are, but the facts are they do exist in today's game, especially once the new system hits. 99% of the immunities will be able to be purged from your target which is a huge deal on top of the 15 second lockout. The meta has needed a change up in the game as a whole for awhile now and this is the time we're getting it. Also judging by your comments I have to ask, what do you consider to be "right," as I suspect you and I have very different definitions as to what is right and what isn't.
In terms of keeping with the times, we're not in the pre-DR era anymore and tactics used back then most likely will not work anymore. This is a completely different game from back then for better or worse.
I see escorts and pilot ships in Ker'rat taking on 4-5 players at a time with some being science ships. That shouldn't be possible. Before DR the most you'd ever see an escort take on is 2 players successfully, any more and their dead. The jemhadar bug could handle 3 jut about but took skill to stay alive. With immunities however... And it's not like they're using defensive abilities. Their traits and spec tree are taking care of it all.
With a ship that has sufficient gear and a good enough pilot behind the helm this can happen that it takes multiple people to kill one guy. In my case, my friend and self should have gotten our butts handed to us in our 2v7 that we did, yet we didn't. In pvp you fight smart and not just hard. If you're doing one without the other then you're doing it wrong. Fact of the matter is there are alot more abilities that people across the board for their toolkits in the offensive and defensive departments that we didn't have before DR. I must again reiterate, we are NOT in a pre-DR game any longer. In a 5v1 situation it still takes skill to stay alive as that one person has 5 brains trying to coordinate against his one. If said team is able to coordinate well enough then they can take down the opponent. If they can't then they will get their butts handed to them. Per your example I would have to question what is on those ships, the guy in the bug ship, and the 4-5 folks trying to kill him. Also if you're trying to judge pvp by Ker'rat you're going to have a bad time. The skill range and gear range of the ships varies wildly in there to the point you can't get an accurate gauge on your ship. to do so you need someone that has a similar or superior skill/gear level to yourself.
The big thing is, those immunites are defensive powers, however they're passive powers. Those immunities alone will not guarantee you to live or die. A passive power is something that sits there and is completely out of the control of the player. Once certain conditions are met it fires. There are passive abilities in virtually every single mmo out there today. There is a great level of customization this game's ability sets compared to other games out there. Traits themselves and their spec provide many passive abilities as well. Heck your entire skill tree is nothing but a set of passive abilities. You don't always see your passive abilities in the way you do an immunity, but they are indeed still there.
I've been PvPing since before LoR and I got good at season 8 when I gained an understanding of the game and built my ship according to what I wanted it to be. I've gone toe to toe with T'varos when they were the rage, I've taken on bug ships and came out the victor, I could successfully take on 2 vapers and send them packing. I remember taking my tal Shiar destroyer into C&H a few times for the fun of it with a single cannon build and successfully fight off bug ships and vapers in on particular instance while throwing out a few heals to my team.
I have been playing since before LoR as well. I've gone up against vape ships as well including the T'varo. Sometimes it worked well for me and sometimes it didn't. If you're able to survive and throw heals then that's great to see. I've seen the better part of the interactions and abilities in this game. I'm no dev but I know my way around a ship builder and know my way around the interactions of the game. There's very little in this game that surprises me anymore when it comes to abilities interacting and such. Some days I've gone into pvp and done really well, and in others I've gotten my butt handed to me on a silver platter with a cherry and whipped cream on top. It happens. Doesn't mean you have to like it but it's going to happen from time to time. Again I must say, this isn't season 8 and this isn't pre-DR or pre-LoR anymore.
It's not like I don't know how to PvP. It's the fact that the meta is broken.
Why do you think so many PvPers have left?
Why do you think players like Bauklotz and Corbin are so successful now? Before DR they sucked and were constantly running from battle after failed vapes.
Its because the meta caters to them. It caters to the trolls that want maximum damage and destruction with 0 effort. Which is stupid and boring.
I'm not going to comment on those 2 beyond this brief statement in a moment as I've not seen either of them fight. If they're relying purely on cheese tactics and immunities alone to stay alive, then yes that's cheap and takes now skill. I'm not debating that the metas as a whole in the game are busted and have been for awhile. What I am debating however is how to fix it and that is where we are differing. As I pointed out prior, there are alot more abilities to draw from than there was before DR both offensively and defensively.
How am I supposed to pick out one immunity buff or a buff full stop out of a string of 20-30 buffs!? It used to be tricky before DR and you had to be quick, now you have to be the flash!
Eventually if you practice enough you learn to pick out certain buffs either by their effects, their icons and/or animations when they fire. Part of my ability to pick stuff out quickly comes from having spent time testing so much stuff as a Bug Hunter. By no means am I saying it's an easy task or easy ability to learn, but it can be done.
Don't get me wrong, I have beaten players with Zhal and other immunity traits, but it's usually been 3, 4 or 5v1 against my opponent and that is unfair and doesn't make for a good time for anybody.
I personally use Pilot as my primary spec as for the way I play it gives me more buffs to work with that are of use. Namely some of those buffs are the Turn The Other Cheek ability for shield damage reduction. The Thick of It and Rock & Roll are nice but they're not required. Even then I have to use my other abilities correctly or I will still die even with those powers. I more than can afford a Zahl but I personally would rather slot abilities that let me kill things quicker or allow me to heal back up before I need to worry about an immunity such as Invincible. Plus the Zahl doesn't interest me that much as a ship. In terms of 5v1, again that can happen if the one pilot has sufficient gear and knows his/her ship well enough. In World of Warcraft there have been times on my Death Knight I ran into a group of folks and slaughtered all of them, and other times got my rear end handed to me. It happens. If someone is just that good at timing their abilities then I fail to see the big deal. If it's purely something like immunity spam then yes we have an issue.
What is fair is allowing all abilities to be used, and all abilities having a counter of some type. Unless you want to implement a mode like the World of Warcraft Arena system, it's not fair to demand an entire subset of abilities be restricted or removed purely because you don't like them. We can argue all day long about what is or isn't OP. It's fun to be a one man army but not always fun to be on the receiving end of that one man army.
If you think it's not fun then why keep doing it until some fixes are made? As I've said several times now, this isn't the pre-LoR or pre-DR era any long. Those days are long past and this isn't the same game as it was then. I've taken a break from several games I used to play both online and in card format from time to time because I felt the current way of doing things wasn't fun. I'm not really much of a science player although I have a couple of science toons. Because of that I don't typically play those toons that often. If you don't enjoy something, forcing yourself to do it won't help you to enjoy it any more.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
The truth is that we don't actually know why they introduced immunities to the game except, to hazard a guess, make more money.
They did it because it made things easier in PvE. Unfortunately, every "useful" (immunities and auto-debuff clearing as examples) mechanic in PvE wrecks havoc in PvP and every single time, without exception. It usually takes a full year for the devs to realize something is OP and then "adjust" it when everyone has it and makes a lot of people angry. They get told early on by the PvP players how ridiculous these things are, but it falls on deaf ears.
We can thank auto-debuff clearing on Iconians and their disables.
Actually all these immunities wreak havoc in pve for teams wanting to use the 3 classes to advantage. Engineering captains are no longer necessary in elite queues filled with tac captain's and their couple of healing and immunity traits because they survive long enough to not warrant the need for engineering captain's to take agro or science captain's to heal them. Because of this independence of tacticals with their huge dps and sufficient enough heals, stemming from the divisive consoles and traits continuously released, it's just not worth playing any class but tacticals in any pve situation.
I'm not forcing myself to play, I haven't played in over a year and I need the practice. We're definitely not in the same page and I don't think we will be.
I have reciprocity, so after an alpha, I can hit hard again within 30 seconds but it's next to impossible to stay alive long enough with all the exotic damage and plasma doping that you can't defend against. I can take most hits with my ship but exotic is tricky.
The last few times I've been on Ker'rat I had a number of wins and went toe to toe with a temporal cruiser (love the design of those temporal powers) a temporal escort and pilot ships and I won a fair share without resorting to those traits. I've always been able to take on stronger players with the latest broken meta and win many times.
Don't get me wrong, I have enough ec to get kemocite, I have the resources to get plasma consoles and probably Zhal too. I could run CritDx2/3 with pen instead of Accx3 and rip ships abart with little effort. But I don't want an advantage given to me by Devs who didn't think about what they were releasing to the community and how broken it was. I like being able to say that it was me who won not my ship and I don't want other players saying that I got saved by traits and that I can't play without that stuff, I want them to have a good time too because I want to play my part in the PvP community to not be what we're accused of being.
Actually all these immunities wreak havoc in pve for teams wanting to use the 3 classes to advantage. Engineering captains are no longer necessary in elite queues filled with tac captain's and their couple of healing and immunity traits because they survive long enough to not warrant the need for engineering captain's to take agro or science captain's to heal them. Because of this independence of tacticals with their huge dps and sufficient enough heals, stemming from the divisive consoles and traits continuously released, it's just not worth playing any class but tacticals in any pve situation.
You can play any class if you don't care about having ridiculous DPS amounts and take hits like a champ. Those moronic traits just activate easy mode without any work for tacs.
Point blank: Go Down Fighting, and the interactions it has with some traits and specializations, is pretty much THE issue in PVP.
The original design of Go Down Fighting is a really cool Tactical ability with appealing thematic flavor. However, it has become problematic to the point of gamebreaking in terms of PVP for the following interactions:
- Last Ditch Effort, a lockbox space trait that adds 100% damage resistance to Go Down Fighting.
- A Good Day to Die, a lockbox space trait that allows use of Go Down Fighting at any hull strength.
- Invincible, the lockbox ship trait that makes you unkillable for 8 seconds, as well as granting a 50% bonus to both hull and should healing.
- Continuity, the Temporal specialization ability that teleports you 8km away from danger when you're at 10% hull, which loses any downside with Adaptation II.
Combine this with Attrition Warfare from the Strategist specialization, which drastically reduces Captain and BOFF shield and hull heals while in threatening stance, it makes even the most mediocre of Tac captains all but immortal in a PVP situation. Whether we're talking about the build on Holodeck or the current build on Tribble, there is virtually no substantive risk involved with Go Down Fighting, and nothing but a gamebreaking stack of rewards given in return.
As is stands, when GDF is combined with all of the above, you've created a situation where anyone in PVP who isn't a Tactical captain with a Battle Cloak-capable ship is playing wrong. That's indefensible from a game design/gameplay perspective no matter how anyone tries to justify it.
It is logical to want to protect Tactical player investments of time and money, and it is logical that Cryptic doesn't want to hurt their bottom line by discouraging Tac captains from buying lockbox keys to get traits you've created. But quite frankly, you can't punish two out of three player career choices while doing so, that is not logical. I am extremely appreciative of the sincere efforts you're currently putting in to fixing the PVP situation, but they will all be in vain if you don't fix the total mess that is Go Down Fighting and it's host of God Mode interactions.
You guys are beyond clever enough to fix this. Please wow us with your talents and do so.
I disagree, I know of engineering captains that will give 99.9% of tac players in this game a run for their money as is the case with sci. Your talking more from a perspective of a pver, in terms of pvp its somewhat different and I find it somewhat frustrating that the nerfs are wrapping every power in wool, but I appreciate that they want new unexperienced players to pvp. The roles were intended for eng to support and sci to debuff but both can be made to dps, albeit not to the levels of a tac but they have their uses in pvp. [/quote]
No, I'm speaking from the perspective of an Engineer who PVPs (read: I AM one of those engineers that give Tac captains a run for their money).
You seem to be projecting your shortcomings as a poor Tac captain who needs to be wrapped in the wool of broken exploits to do well, but you and others like you should really stop doing that. You're making other people feel embarrassed for you, as well making good Tac captains look bad.
Edit: Reply in bold since forum formatting has sunk to new lows of being broken.[/quote]
Well clearly from your posts this is not the case, sounds like you're slightly butt hurt because a few tacs have defeated you and that's why you are upset and on here complaining. That is embarrassing in itself.
This is exactly the problem, and why I think devs shouldn't take any consideration to what's being said on here and draw their own conclusions, too many players are just thinking about their own interests and not the game as a whole.
Point blank: Go Down Fighting, and the interactions it has with some traits and specializations, is pretty much THE issue in PVP.
The original design of Go Down Fighting is a really cool Tactical ability with appealing thematic flavor. However, it has become problematic to the point of gamebreaking in terms of PVP for the following interactions:
- Last Ditch Effort, a lockbox space trait that adds 100% damage resistance to Go Down Fighting.
- A Good Day to Die, a lockbox space trait that allows use of Go Down Fighting at any hull strength.
- Invincible, the lockbox ship trait that makes you unkillable for 8 seconds, as well as granting a 50% bonus to both hull and should healing.
- Continuity, the Temporal specialization ability that teleports you 8km away from danger when you're at 10% hull, which loses any downside with Adaptation II.
Combine this with Attrition Warfare from the Strategist specialization, which drastically reduces Captain and BOFF shield and hull heals while in threatening stance, it makes even the most mediocre of Tac captains all but immortal in a PVP situation. Whether we're talking about the build on Holodeck or the current build on Tribble, there is virtually no substantive risk involved with Go Down Fighting, and nothing but a gamebreaking stack of rewards given in return.
As is stands, when GDF is combined with all of the above, you've created a situation where anyone in PVP who isn't a Tactical captain with a Battle Cloak-capable ship is playing wrong. That's indefensible from a game design/gameplay perspective no matter how anyone tries to justify it.
It is logical to want to protect Tactical player investments of time and money, and it is logical that Cryptic doesn't want to hurt their bottom line by discouraging Tac captains from buying lockbox keys to get traits you've created. But quite frankly, you can't punish two out of three player career choices while doing so, that is not logical. I am extremely appreciative of the sincere efforts you're currently putting in to fixing the PVP situation, but they will all be in vain if you don't fix the total mess that is Go Down Fighting and it's host of God Mode interactions.
You guys are beyond clever enough to fix this. Please wow us with your talents and do so.
I disagree, I know of engineering captains that will give 99.9% of tac players in this game a run for their money as is the case with sci. Your talking more from a perspective of a pver, in terms of pvp its somewhat different and I find it somewhat frustrating that the nerfs are wrapping every power in wool, but I appreciate that they want new unexperienced players to pvp. The roles were intended for eng to support and sci to debuff but both can be made to dps, albeit not to the levels of a tac but they have their uses in pvp.
No, I'm speaking from the perspective of an Engineer who PVPs (read: I AM one of those engineers that give Tac captains a run for their money).
You seem to be projecting your shortcomings as a poor Tac captain who needs to be wrapped in the wool of broken exploits to do well, but you and others like you should really stop doing that. You're making other people feel embarrassed for you, as well making good Tac captains look bad.
Edit: Reply in bold since forum formatting has sunk to new lows of being broken.[/quote]
Well clearly from your posts this is not the case, sounds like you're slightly butt hurt because a few tacs have defeated you and that's why you are upset and on here complaining. That is embarrassing in itself.
That's a perfect example of you projecting your own shortcoming onto me. Again. To whit, you crying on the 4/28/17 Tribble Patch thread about an Engineer doing more DPS than you, despite you not noticing in your combat log that he had gold MK XIV epic weapons, as well as you not understanding how his Quantum Phase Torpedoes stripped your shields in one volley, despite the fact that they've worked that way on the live Holodeck server since the set came out, if your build can't cope with it.
Your lack of understanding the most basic parts of PVP, as well as your low post count, pretty clearly indicates you're one of those typical new-ish post-DR Tac captains who mistake their broken profession for skill, and that the balance pass that has fixed things has been a rude awakening to the fact that you have a whole lot of L2Ping to do.
This is exactly the problem, and why I think devs shouldn't take any consideration to what's being said on here and draw their own conclusions, too many players are just thinking about their own interests and not the game as a whole.
[/quote]
See above, noob sauce.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
Comments
Point blank: Go Down Fighting, and the interactions it has with some traits and specializations, is pretty much THE issue in PVP.
The original design of Go Down Fighting is a really cool Tactical ability with appealing thematic flavor. However, it has become problematic to the point of gamebreaking in terms of PVP for the following interactions:
- Last Ditch Effort, a lockbox space trait that adds 100% damage resistance to Go Down Fighting.
- A Good Day to Die, a lockbox space trait that allows use of Go Down Fighting at any hull strength.
- Invincible, the lockbox ship trait that makes you unkillable for 8 seconds, as well as granting a 50% bonus to both hull and should healing.
- Continuity, the Temporal specialization ability that teleports you 8km away from danger when you're at 10% hull, which loses any downside with Adaptation II.
Combine this with Attrition Warfare from the Strategist specialization, which drastically reduces Captain and BOFF shield and hull heals while in threatening stance, it makes even the most mediocre of Tac captains all but immortal in a PVP situation. Whether we're talking about the build on Holodeck or the current build on Tribble, there is virtually no substantive risk involved with Go Down Fighting, and nothing but a gamebreaking stack of rewards given in return.
As is stands, when GDF is combined with all of the above, you've created a situation where anyone in PVP who isn't a Tactical captain with a Battle Cloak-capable ship is playing wrong. That's indefensible from a game design/gameplay perspective no matter how anyone tries to justify it.
It is logical to want to protect Tactical player investments of time and money, and it is logical that Cryptic doesn't want to hurt their bottom line by discouraging Tac captains from buying lockbox keys to get traits you've created. But quite frankly, you can't punish two out of three player career choices while doing so, that is not logical. I am extremely appreciative of the sincere efforts you're currently putting in to fixing the PVP situation, but they will all be in vain if you don't fix the total mess that is Go Down Fighting and it's host of God Mode interactions.
You guys are beyond clever enough to fix this. Please wow us with your talents and do so.
[/quote]
I disagree, I know of engineering captains that will give 99.9% of tac players in this game a run for their money as is the case with sci. Your talking more from a perspective of a pver, in terms of pvp its somewhat different and I find it somewhat frustrating that the nerfs are wrapping every power in wool, but I appreciate that they want new unexperienced players to pvp. The roles were intended for eng to support and sci to debuff but both can be made to dps, albeit not to the levels of a tac but they have their uses in pvp. [/quote]
No, I'm speaking from the perspective of an Engineer who PVPs (read: I AM one of those engineers that give Tac captains a run for their money).
You seem to be projecting your shortcomings as a poor Tac captain who needs to be wrapped in the wool of broken exploits to do well, but you and others like you should really stop doing that. You're making other people feel embarrassed for you, as well making good Tac captains look bad.
Edit: Reply in bold since forum formatting has sunk to new lows of being broken.
You've already gotten the nerf you want by them putting a 15 second lockout on the immunities. Until the devs draw a clear line between pvp and pve, the nerfs you're asking for in pvp will effect the rest of us in the pve community and that's not fair to either side. As for immunities themselves, I get that you don't like them but they are a legitimate tactic and ability that can be used in pvp. I absolutely agree they shouldn't be spammable in situation like that but you're not answering a few other questions you need to answer when dealing with balance in a game. Assuming they went with the disadvantage option, what type of further disadvantage would you have them introduce? As for locking them out in a pvp scenario, why should they do that? Whether you like it or not they're part of the game and are a legitimate tactic to use in a pvp situation. I absolutely agree they shouldn't be spammable back to back, but to deny the ability to use them outright I absolutely do NOT agree with. If someone has said ability why should they not be allowed to use it? This isn't a game like Magic the Gathering or Hearthstone where you're just banning certain cards, what you're talking about is locking out an entire subset of abilities, which would be like banning the color blue outright in MTG as a comparison. As much as I despise blue in MTG I'm not going to advocate for the color to be banned from use.
To put this in World of Warcraft terms, these new queues are like unranked battlegrounds. In those battlegrounds anything goes. All abilities are there for use. What you're advocating would be another mode entirely which would equate to Rated Battlegrounds or Arena game modes. In those modes like Arena, several abilities are restricted and such. The most fair solution would be to implement different modes of pvp in this situation. An anything goes mode similar to unranked or standard battlegrounds, and another mode similar to Arena. Simply because you don't like an ability doesn't mean it should be allowed to be used at all across the entire mode of pvp.
The debate wasn't if the enemies were better in Elite, only that defensive powers were needed or not. Your original statement below says:
There are plenty of disadvantages to running with immunities in your build just as there are plenty of benefits. In my instance I play as a tank in space. I purposefully build my ships with being the one under fire in mind. For every immunity I pick up is another healing power, damage power, or support power I could pick up. If I'm not being pushed to the point those immunities are firing, they're doing nothing for me and are pretty much dead weight. Immunities are a safety net meant to give you a chance to survive but do NOT guarantee that you will. Your original statement above said that folks don't need defensive powers if they're running the immunities which simply isn't true. If you're going to come back now and try to debate it from the side of the enemies being better, then the goal post and the original argument has changed. The original debate was defensive powers being needed at all based on the above statement, and I gave you examples of them being needed. Now it appears the goal post has changed.
I never stated it was the same as fighting another player nor even insinuated as such. All I did was give you examples of when and where defensive powers are still needed in pve situations after you stated there was no need for such powers. In pvp having an advantage does not automatically guarantee someone a win. I can't tell you the number of times in my pvp heavy days in World of Warcraft I went up against someone that was my "anti-class" and came out with a win. Several times as a Death Knight in WoW I went up against Rogues or Mages, which are 2 classes that were supposed to have major advantage over my class and I won. In STO I've also gone up against folks who severely outgeared by having all mk xiv epics, where as not even half of my stuff was ultra rare yet and I've won. The equipment and the abilities are only part of the equation. In pvp or pve, it's about 20% gear, skill setup, specializations and abilities, and the other 80% is purely on the pilot. In the past I've gone up against a crew of folks I used to run with in a 2 vs 7 and my team prevailed. Now we can argue all day long about skill level of those players, but by the logic you're using, I should've gotten slaughtered. Instead I played smart as did my teammate and we won.
PvP is like a dance, and whoever dances the best in that situation is the one that takes the win. Even if you have the best dancing equipment in the world, best costume, best everything, you can still be out-danced by the other person who knows their equipment better than yours. With anything in pvp there is always something that counter the other thing. Now clearing debuffs and reapplying buffs isn't as common in pve as it is pvp but it can still happen. To be perfectly blunt about it, you can die just as easily in pve as you can in pvp if you run off half cocked like a jackass not paying attention to what you're doing, or if you get tunnel vision.
If your build and strategy is being countered that badly by someone having immunities that tells me one of several things, you need to adjust your build accordingly, adjust your strategy accordingly, or both. What I'm gathering from this is that immunities are part of your "anti-class" so to speak. In WoW when my Arena team came against a team composition designed to counter us, we adjusted our strategy from our norm and played accordingly. I would say about 60% of the time it worked, 40% of the time it didn't. For your GDF issue, A Good Day To Die will solve the issue of having to drop your health down in order to utilize GDF since you can use it at any time.
I see a problem, though not one you're thinking. No offense but to be perfectly blunt, what I see is that you're coming up against a type of ability that is designed to counter your type of build and strategy. Instead of changing your strategy and/or build, you're wanting it nerfed or removed. As I said above, using immunities is a fair tactic. I absolutely agree allowing them to be spammed is OP and doesn't need to be a thing, just like a 0% GDF doesn't need to be a thing. However to deny the use of immunities or a low percent GDF at all is flat out bad design.
Those players still have to invest in some type of defensive powers otherwise they would just die the moment their immunity disappears. You're placing way too much value on immunities when there's far more to pvp than just that.
Finally in terms of the double kill disadvantage, look at what happens with Blaze of Glory vs your regular immunity. In Blaze of Glory you're already dead and coming back to life for a short time, so I absolutely understand why that counts as a second kill. Immunities like Thick of It from Pilot, Invincible, and Continuity, prevent the death from occuring in the first place, and as such don't give a second kill since the target hasn't died yet. Under the new system you should perhaps consider running something like SubNuc Carrier Wave from Intel as that purges several buffs from the enemy and would probably prioritize the immunities over other buffs.
There are ways around virtually everything in pvp, sometimes it just requires some outside the box thinking.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I don't use the current meta of FAW, spacebar and immunities. I go toe to toe against people who are using broken equipment to have an unfair advantage over me and others who can't afford those traits while we try to have a fair fight.
You're saying that immunities are there to counter alphastrikes and heavy hits. No, alphastrikes and vapes could be countered before DR, but it took skill. Immunities take skill away from the game and give it to the person with the biggest wallet.
My build is a countervape/support build that can alphastrike if I get my timing right (which I rarely do). I built my ship to counter alphastrikes, vapes by using a combination of abilities, like cycling EPtE1 and EPtS2 to boost my defence and resistance, 2 tactical teams and APD, relying on quick reactions and manoeuvring to absorb the vape (in a t5u fleet Defiant, hardly a tough ship) and then take down the target before he can escape. That took skill. It took skill on their part to hold me off. I've had battles that have lasted 5-10minutes against 2 players and didn't have to rely on immunities.
Now, however, I could just get immunities, go damage heavy by getting rid of neutroniums to protect my hull and put something else there to boost my damage, replace EPtS with EPtW2, use DBR instead of ST, I could probably throw HE away too, I won't need tactical team or APD too because I'll be able to blow tanks up and let the immunities keep me alive.
See the problem?
It's a bit like you playing competitive bowling against someone and they're insisting on having the barriers up in their lane while you and your team are doing it properly without barriers. Then you loose and they boast about winning.
I've beaten players with immunities, as rare as it is I have beaten a couple but it takes me having to use ramming speed because there's no way for me to hold off a fully attack focused build so I have to ram them just before they take me out because I can't win otherwise. Even then immunities kick in most of time I've rammed players and I lost while they don't take any damage.
P.S. My "anti-class" would be science not tac captain escorts. But seeing as this games favours only Tac what's the point in being something else? It's DPS or get out at the moment. And I don't like that. Other classes and builds must be viable too.
I firmly agree that engineer rotate shield frequency should negate shield bleedthrough as it does in actual star trek. Since this game is based on the shows, then rotate shield frequency should be an actual rotate shield frequency, not another transfer shield strength without the immediate heal but with a drain res.
There's no point making shield buffs better when most dmg seems to bypass Shields anyway. This isn't going to be game breaking because we've already got tactical and science that use abilities that either ignore Shields or deal massive shield bleedthrough with the stack of traits that offer 50% bleedthrough.
Its OK to turn down the damage players put out. There's a couple sacred cow burgers that should be grilled and served with chips to make pretty much every game mode a little more interesting...
Speaking of which, has anyone parsed the new BFAW now that the accuracy penalty is actually hooked up? Is the Acc penalty still meaningless in PvE or might we finally see a shift in the Exchange's complete disdain for [Acc] weapons?
With your last sentence of this part of your post I'm seeing where this wanting to nerf immunities is coming from, the perspective that it's a wallet warrior type ability and shouldn't be allowed because the average player may not be able to afford those traits. I'll address that in just a moment but first it's obvious to me there's a few things you're forgetting when it comes to this game. Virtually any ship in game can be made to do great damage and be made to survive no matter the captain type. Now there are certain ships that will lend more advantages to a certain type of build than others, and certain captains that will lend more advantages, but that's where what is "best" ends. I've made a tank out of my Aquarius escort before and it's performed rather well in the survival and damage departments. You could make a power drain build using Antiproton beams and it would work, but would be woefully underpowered compared to using Polarons.
A ship is only as good as its pilot. In this game it's about 20% equipment, skills, setup etc, the other 80% is on the pilot. For about 5 years the Galor was my bread and butter ship. It wasn't until the Keldon came to the PC that I was finally able to upgrade my flagship to tier 6. So until that infinity box cycle that gave us the Keldon about 6 months ago, I was still rocking a t5 ship in pvp and in post DR content. In that time frame I can't tell you the amount of time I came across folks that had the latest shiny item or the latest ship at the time that just could not keep up with my Galor. If you take the time to get to know your ship well enough, and take time to plan accordingly, you can pull off crazy feats even with ye old t5 ships. Heck even some of the t4s can reasonably keep up in today's game.
Simply because one has the latest shiny ability or ship in game does NOT automatically guarantee them the win. That 2 vs 7 pvp match I told you about was while I was in that Galor. If you know in a pvp situation you're at a disadvantage, that's when you want to bring your brains into play more than anything. Myself and friend knew going in we were outnumbered, and knew there would be a decent amount of firepower coming at us at all times. The only immunity I had in that entire fight was the Thick of It immunity from Pilot that lasts all of 4 seconds and goes on a 45 second lockout. This means that in terms of that ability's timer I have about 8% up time in terms of duration. This means the other 92% of the time, or 41 seconds I am vulnerable.
As for what is "broken" I absolutely agree spamming immunities back to back is OP, however the concept of an immunity itself is not. Immunities are safety nets and nothing else. Under this new system if someone has a SubNuc type effect all they have to do is purge it. If that's not available then right after their immunities have worn off is when you would want to strike before they can get too much health back.
Now for the "wallet warrior" aspect. STO is one of the only true free to play games out there. I have the better majority of ships from the Cstore as well as at least 1 lockbox and/or lobi ship on every single one of my 14 high level characters. I also own most of the event ships we've had as well with a select few being unowned. I also own an Annorax, a Universe, and TOS t6 Constitution class. Point being my collection of ships isn't cheap. In fact my main toon has reached the maximum number of ship slots you can have on a toon. Now while I've dropped a good chunk of change on the game, in terms of entertainment value I have gotten back from the game, I consider it an investment well spent. Now with that ship collection I have a large variety of abilities to draw from as well as potential builds I could set up. Despite having all of these things that also includes a decent set of gear for each ship I own, a free to play player can have every single thing I have without ever having to put a penny into the game. It's going to take them longer to get it and it will be a grind, but they can indeed do it. I absolutely believe there are some abilities and ships that are way overpriced, but point being those abilities and ships can still be picked up by folks. With my 14 high level toons I can rake in 112k dilithium per day for a total of 784k dilithium per week. At an exchange rate of 290 dilithium to zen that's about 2700 zen in a week. All of that dilithium can be earned by spending about 10-20 minutes per toon in the Dyson Ground Battlezone the way I get my dilithium. There are even faster methods you can use as well. Point being you can get anything you want, you just may have to work for it a bit.
By your own admission you're not getting your timing right with your build so that's the very first thing I would work on. Practice and keep practicing some more until you can do it purely from muscle memory or with very little thought. Since you were also kind enough to provide the ship you're using which is a t5u fleet Defiant now I know what ship base you're working with. It doesn't have the boff seating to slot too many defensive powers but I've still seen Defiants that can easily keep up with my Keldon and be right there with me in the thick of combat.
I've had battles that have ended quickly and battles that have taken ages with and without immunities. In terms of neutroniums, with as many sources of damage resists that are available in game today, you don't need neutroniums unless you absolutely want them. Even then I don't run more than one armor console, very rarely using 2 of them due to the stupid high diminishing returns. In terms of my immunities that I get from Pilot, I don't need them in order to tank or do my job. If that one single ability is what's always making or breaking you then you have more problems with your strategy and setup than just that ability. Real skill is being able to play around any and all abilities in the game no matter the hand you're dealt. I've had battles that have come down to whoever hits their weapons cycle first as well.
The problem I see is you're being countered and instead of trying to play around it you're complaining and demanding it be removed instead of coming up with a strategy to get around it. If you know your current build and strategy isn't working then change it up otherwise you're going to get the same results by repeating the same strategy over and over.
Actually an anti-class is anything that is designed to counter your strategy/build and isn't restricted to being purely science captains. I've gone against science captains as well in pvp and I've prevailed even though I primarily play as a tac captain. Sometimes an anti-class in terms of STO can be another tac captain with a certain build, or a science captain. For the immunities by your own admissions, sounds like you've found your anti-class.
As for your example of ramming speed, why for the love of all things holy if you know someone is using immunities have you not made sure their immunity is on cooldown BEFORE you use an ability like that. That one was purely on you and not the immunity.
Unless you're advocating that they include a mode like World of Warcraft Arenas where certain abilities and such are restricted or can't even be used, then all items and abilities are fair game in a pvp situation. Simply because you don't like them doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be used. I personally despise (or despised now) going against feedback pulse but I learned to play around it in the mean time. Simply because you view immunities as unfair does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to be used. Per a previous example of mine, in Magic the Gathering I absolutely despise playing against blue decks as I believe more often than not they're given alot of cheap and OP cards to use that suck the fun out of it. However I'm not out here demanding that blue be removed from the game entirely.
Immunities are a fair tactic and ability set to use and draw from. They're not required to succeed and simply having them does NOT guarantee a win in a pvp situation. I absolutely agree immunity spam is OP and doesn't need to be a thing. However I do NOT agree they need to be removed from PVP outright.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Yes, I don't always get my timing right, and my build relies very much on timing because I've made my ship an allrounder to make it more versatile, but when I do get the timing right, when I bring my opponents shields down with a BO2 and CRF2 and get a direct HY3 hit on a moving target with buffs and their health goes from 100% to 0 and then goes back up to 50% or more within 3 seconds, it kinda throws all of my skill out of the window.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the whole get with the times and change things up to stay in play but the current state of play is frankly wrong.
I see escorts and pilot ships in Ker'rat taking on 4-5 players at a time with some being science ships. That shouldn't be possible. Before DR the most you'd ever see an escort take on is 2 players successfully, any more and their dead. The jemhadar bug could handle 3 jut about but took skill to stay alive. With immunities however... And it's not like they're using defensive abilities. Their traits and spec tree are taking care of it all.
I've been PvPing since before LoR and I got good at season 8 when I gained an understanding of the game and built my ship according to what I wanted it to be. I've gone toe to toe with T'varos when they were the rage, I've taken on bug ships and came out the victor, I could successfully take on 2 vapers and send them packing. I remember taking my tal Shiar destroyer into C&H a few times for the fun of it with a single cannon build and successfully fight off bug ships and vapers in on particular instance while throwing out a few heals to my team.
It's not like I don't know how to PvP. It's the fact that the meta is broken.
Why do you think so many PvPers have left?
Why do you think players like Bauklotz and Corbin are so successful now? Before DR they sucked and were constantly running from battle after failed vapes.
Its because the meta caters to them. It caters to the trolls that want maximum damage and destruction with 0 effort. Which is stupid and boring.
How am I supposed to pick out one immunity buff or a buff full stop out of a string of 20-30 buffs!? It used to be tricky before DR and you had to be quick, now you have to be the flash!
Don't get me wrong, I have beaten players with Zhal and other immunity traits, but it's usually been 3, 4 or 5v1 against my opponent and that is unfair and doesn't make for a good time for anybody.
PvP has to be fun and it hasn't been since DR.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
There's always going to be folks complaining about something in this game, or any game for that matter so this is nothing new. A ship in this game that tries to do more than 1-2 things effectively becomes a jack of all trades and master of none. With my ships such as my Keldon, I built it with survival in mind and DPS second. It focuses on staying alive first by drawing on a ton of defensive powers, and then focuses on making its weapons as damaging as possible. From what I'm gathering of your statement is you're trying to do too many things at once with your ship. In this current state of the game, it's safe to assume that everyone has at least one immunity and to play accordingly. No offense but your statement just screams, bad timing and poor planning, to me. From your statements this gives me the picture that you're blowing all of your offensive powers at once and not making sure their immunity is down first. Once you force the immunity you have about 15-60 seconds before you see another one. Once that first immunity goes off is when you want to strike before another one can be deployed. From your statements, you're pushing the immunities but once you get past the immunity you're out of steam because you dropped your full damage load already. That's not skill going out the window, that's needing to plan better than what you are. Sometimes in pvp the risk of using full abilities will pay off, sometimes it won't. pvp is a fickle beast at best.
Based off what you've said in your past several replies I must respectfully question whether you actually understand that concept or not. From everything I've seen so far, you know immunities are something that's been giving you grief in pvp, and you know your timing isn't what it should be, yet you're not practicing to nail the timing in your sleep, nor are you adjusting your build and strategy to compensate for the immunities until something is done to address them. As I've said prior I absolutely agree that being able to spam immunities is OP and needs to go the way of the Dodo bird. As for what is wrong or right, what is right is everything having some type of a counter. We can debate at how effective those counters are, but the facts are they do exist in today's game, especially once the new system hits. 99% of the immunities will be able to be purged from your target which is a huge deal on top of the 15 second lockout. The meta has needed a change up in the game as a whole for awhile now and this is the time we're getting it. Also judging by your comments I have to ask, what do you consider to be "right," as I suspect you and I have very different definitions as to what is right and what isn't.
In terms of keeping with the times, we're not in the pre-DR era anymore and tactics used back then most likely will not work anymore. This is a completely different game from back then for better or worse.
With a ship that has sufficient gear and a good enough pilot behind the helm this can happen that it takes multiple people to kill one guy. In my case, my friend and self should have gotten our butts handed to us in our 2v7 that we did, yet we didn't. In pvp you fight smart and not just hard. If you're doing one without the other then you're doing it wrong. Fact of the matter is there are alot more abilities that people across the board for their toolkits in the offensive and defensive departments that we didn't have before DR. I must again reiterate, we are NOT in a pre-DR game any longer. In a 5v1 situation it still takes skill to stay alive as that one person has 5 brains trying to coordinate against his one. If said team is able to coordinate well enough then they can take down the opponent. If they can't then they will get their butts handed to them. Per your example I would have to question what is on those ships, the guy in the bug ship, and the 4-5 folks trying to kill him. Also if you're trying to judge pvp by Ker'rat you're going to have a bad time. The skill range and gear range of the ships varies wildly in there to the point you can't get an accurate gauge on your ship. to do so you need someone that has a similar or superior skill/gear level to yourself.
The big thing is, those immunites are defensive powers, however they're passive powers. Those immunities alone will not guarantee you to live or die. A passive power is something that sits there and is completely out of the control of the player. Once certain conditions are met it fires. There are passive abilities in virtually every single mmo out there today. There is a great level of customization this game's ability sets compared to other games out there. Traits themselves and their spec provide many passive abilities as well. Heck your entire skill tree is nothing but a set of passive abilities. You don't always see your passive abilities in the way you do an immunity, but they are indeed still there.
I have been playing since before LoR as well. I've gone up against vape ships as well including the T'varo. Sometimes it worked well for me and sometimes it didn't. If you're able to survive and throw heals then that's great to see. I've seen the better part of the interactions and abilities in this game. I'm no dev but I know my way around a ship builder and know my way around the interactions of the game. There's very little in this game that surprises me anymore when it comes to abilities interacting and such. Some days I've gone into pvp and done really well, and in others I've gotten my butt handed to me on a silver platter with a cherry and whipped cream on top. It happens. Doesn't mean you have to like it but it's going to happen from time to time. Again I must say, this isn't season 8 and this isn't pre-DR or pre-LoR anymore.
I'm not going to comment on those 2 beyond this brief statement in a moment as I've not seen either of them fight. If they're relying purely on cheese tactics and immunities alone to stay alive, then yes that's cheap and takes now skill. I'm not debating that the metas as a whole in the game are busted and have been for awhile. What I am debating however is how to fix it and that is where we are differing. As I pointed out prior, there are alot more abilities to draw from than there was before DR both offensively and defensively.
Eventually if you practice enough you learn to pick out certain buffs either by their effects, their icons and/or animations when they fire. Part of my ability to pick stuff out quickly comes from having spent time testing so much stuff as a Bug Hunter. By no means am I saying it's an easy task or easy ability to learn, but it can be done.
I personally use Pilot as my primary spec as for the way I play it gives me more buffs to work with that are of use. Namely some of those buffs are the Turn The Other Cheek ability for shield damage reduction. The Thick of It and Rock & Roll are nice but they're not required. Even then I have to use my other abilities correctly or I will still die even with those powers. I more than can afford a Zahl but I personally would rather slot abilities that let me kill things quicker or allow me to heal back up before I need to worry about an immunity such as Invincible. Plus the Zahl doesn't interest me that much as a ship. In terms of 5v1, again that can happen if the one pilot has sufficient gear and knows his/her ship well enough. In World of Warcraft there have been times on my Death Knight I ran into a group of folks and slaughtered all of them, and other times got my rear end handed to me. It happens. If someone is just that good at timing their abilities then I fail to see the big deal. If it's purely something like immunity spam then yes we have an issue.
What is fair is allowing all abilities to be used, and all abilities having a counter of some type. Unless you want to implement a mode like the World of Warcraft Arena system, it's not fair to demand an entire subset of abilities be restricted or removed purely because you don't like them. We can argue all day long about what is or isn't OP. It's fun to be a one man army but not always fun to be on the receiving end of that one man army.
If you think it's not fun then why keep doing it until some fixes are made? As I've said several times now, this isn't the pre-LoR or pre-DR era any long. Those days are long past and this isn't the same game as it was then. I've taken a break from several games I used to play both online and in card format from time to time because I felt the current way of doing things wasn't fun. I'm not really much of a science player although I have a couple of science toons. Because of that I don't typically play those toons that often. If you don't enjoy something, forcing yourself to do it won't help you to enjoy it any more.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
They did it because it made things easier in PvE. Unfortunately, every "useful" (immunities and auto-debuff clearing as examples) mechanic in PvE wrecks havoc in PvP and every single time, without exception. It usually takes a full year for the devs to realize something is OP and then "adjust" it when everyone has it and makes a lot of people angry. They get told early on by the PvP players how ridiculous these things are, but it falls on deaf ears.
We can thank auto-debuff clearing on Iconians and their disables.
Actually all these immunities wreak havoc in pve for teams wanting to use the 3 classes to advantage. Engineering captains are no longer necessary in elite queues filled with tac captain's and their couple of healing and immunity traits because they survive long enough to not warrant the need for engineering captain's to take agro or science captain's to heal them. Because of this independence of tacticals with their huge dps and sufficient enough heals, stemming from the divisive consoles and traits continuously released, it's just not worth playing any class but tacticals in any pve situation.
We're definitely not in the same page and I don't think we will be.
I have reciprocity, so after an alpha, I can hit hard again within 30 seconds but it's next to impossible to stay alive long enough with all the exotic damage and plasma doping that you can't defend against. I can take most hits with my ship but exotic is tricky.
The last few times I've been on Ker'rat I had a number of wins and went toe to toe with a temporal cruiser (love the design of those temporal powers) a temporal escort and pilot ships and I won a fair share without resorting to those traits. I've always been able to take on stronger players with the latest broken meta and win many times.
Don't get me wrong, I have enough ec to get kemocite, I have the resources to get plasma consoles and probably Zhal too. I could run CritDx2/3 with pen instead of Accx3 and rip ships abart with little effort. But I don't want an advantage given to me by Devs who didn't think about what they were releasing to the community and how broken it was. I like being able to say that it was me who won not my ship and I don't want other players saying that I got saved by traits and that I can't play without that stuff, I want them to have a good time too because I want to play my part in the PvP community to not be what we're accused of being.
You can play any class if you don't care about having ridiculous DPS amounts and take hits like a champ. Those moronic traits just activate easy mode without any work for tacs.
I disagree, I know of engineering captains that will give 99.9% of tac players in this game a run for their money as is the case with sci. Your talking more from a perspective of a pver, in terms of pvp its somewhat different and I find it somewhat frustrating that the nerfs are wrapping every power in wool, but I appreciate that they want new unexperienced players to pvp. The roles were intended for eng to support and sci to debuff but both can be made to dps, albeit not to the levels of a tac but they have their uses in pvp. [/quote]
No, I'm speaking from the perspective of an Engineer who PVPs (read: I AM one of those engineers that give Tac captains a run for their money).
You seem to be projecting your shortcomings as a poor Tac captain who needs to be wrapped in the wool of broken exploits to do well, but you and others like you should really stop doing that. You're making other people feel embarrassed for you, as well making good Tac captains look bad.
Edit: Reply in bold since forum formatting has sunk to new lows of being broken.[/quote]
Well clearly from your posts this is not the case, sounds like you're slightly butt hurt because a few tacs have defeated you and that's why you are upset and on here complaining. That is embarrassing in itself.
This is exactly the problem, and why I think devs shouldn't take any consideration to what's being said on here and draw their own conclusions, too many players are just thinking about their own interests and not the game as a whole.
No, I'm speaking from the perspective of an Engineer who PVPs (read: I AM one of those engineers that give Tac captains a run for their money).
You seem to be projecting your shortcomings as a poor Tac captain who needs to be wrapped in the wool of broken exploits to do well, but you and others like you should really stop doing that. You're making other people feel embarrassed for you, as well making good Tac captains look bad.
Edit: Reply in bold since forum formatting has sunk to new lows of being broken.[/quote]
Well clearly from your posts this is not the case, sounds like you're slightly butt hurt because a few tacs have defeated you and that's why you are upset and on here complaining. That is embarrassing in itself.
That's a perfect example of you projecting your own shortcoming onto me. Again. To whit, you crying on the 4/28/17 Tribble Patch thread about an Engineer doing more DPS than you, despite you not noticing in your combat log that he had gold MK XIV epic weapons, as well as you not understanding how his Quantum Phase Torpedoes stripped your shields in one volley, despite the fact that they've worked that way on the live Holodeck server since the set came out, if your build can't cope with it.
Your lack of understanding the most basic parts of PVP, as well as your low post count, pretty clearly indicates you're one of those typical new-ish post-DR Tac captains who mistake their broken profession for skill, and that the balance pass that has fixed things has been a rude awakening to the fact that you have a whole lot of L2Ping to do.
This is exactly the problem, and why I think devs shouldn't take any consideration to what's being said on here and draw their own conclusions, too many players are just thinking about their own interests and not the game as a whole.
[/quote]
See above, noob sauce.