This is the second time hell has frozen over already - don't forget that we actually have a Klingon Science Vessel already/finally!
Regarding the lack of a Vo'Quv - it share its fate with old Federation ships like the Luna, the Space Shoe or the Space Whale. I wonder if they looked at those ships and decided the models are in such a launch-disaster state still that it's not worth repairing?
not the reason. In a way, this is kind of a trolling thing. The Tier Six Varanus has the same problems that kept the Tier 5 Varanus from selling well, but this time it's bundled with good ships for the other two factions. a "GOOD" Vo'Quv or Kar'fi would sell well at tier six, Hence, they won't be made. Haven't you noticed? the new 'paradigm' is to give KDF releases a half point or greater gimp to turn rates and maintain the cloaking tax on shields-even on ships that don't cloak.
It also has more hull:
38,000 at level 60 (Vesta)
40.000 at level 60 (Gorn)
You think half a point of turn rate and half of a tenth of a point of shield modifier is making a difference in effectiveness for these ships that cannot be compensated by 2.000 more points of hull?
And the Gorn get a completely new fighter pet with new model on top of that. Not a mechanical benefit (probably, haven't really checked the pet stats), but definitely some extra effort for the modelling department.
EDIT: Looked at the pet: Torpedo Spread on the Elite version might be interesting.
Mustrum, once you start using the multipliers that half point gets significant pretty quickly, esp. if you're using either narrow arc weaponry, or abilities that require you to face the opponent. for FAW boats it doesn't matter a whole lot.
The hull is also subject to multipliers.
as for Hull...More hull is nice, if you have abilities that fix hull as a percentage (we don't), and if you're never going to face (Pen).
[PEN] lowers your hull's effective hull resistance. More hull is still better than less hull against [PEN]!
That's like saying more shields is useless, because you go against people that Shield Penetration (ignores shields) and Shield Weakening (lowers shield reduction). There aren't any shield heals that are percentage based, either!
my point is more academic-you're taking two hits for about 2000 points of hull hitpoints-something that most people can make up with consoles and skill choices, (it's less than the volume of a raw fighter w/NO console at level 60), one of those hits being to your multiplier and the other to your handling.
Those hits are however are tiny. We're talking 1.35 to 1.4 for shields, and 11.5 to 12 for turn rate and
3 % more shields and 4 % more turn rate versus 5 % more hull.
If you want to talk about miniscule differences - the disruptor proc is generally seen as better than the phaser proc, and the Gorn got the better proc.
by contrast, the Fed and Romulan ships share stats with the sole exception of the Romulan getting free battlecloak and singularity powers for a miniscule -40 power penalty easily taken up with any number of counters cryptic's piled on in the last seven years.
No, Fed and Romulan shpis don't share stats! They have Fed hull (aka less than Gorn), Gorn Shields (less than Fed), Gorn Turn Rate (Less than Fed).
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I don't own them, but Of the Gorn variants the Khiamas is the most interesting to me. 5 sci consoles and 4 tac console, a Lt. Commander Tac, Lt. Commander universal/temporal, ensign universal and of course the subsystem targeting gives a lot of ways to activate the Heavy Tachyon Mine.
A very flexible ship.
I really love the Elite Gorn Heavy Fighters, tractor beam, disruptor beam array, chronition torpedoes, and torpedo spread II make for cool pets, and they look awesome too.
So pretty good firepower for a science ship, but good science too.
ill believe that when i get a GODDAM ferasan ship.
You and me both, been using Breen ships and the Jem HEC for my e Ferasans for a while now. I still have to grab at least one of the Gorn Ships though.
While I only have 1 Gorn, 2nd or 3rd character I ever made, 1st KDF, I've subsequently made 3 Ferasans, and 2 Reman. Heck my KDF main is an Andorian looking Alien, with my first character as. Fed, back when you had to start that way was Andorian.
I would like to see a bit more love for Ferasans, Orions. One of the Nausican Fish ships upgraded(what my Ferasans used while leveling).
As much as I don't like the idea of Feds in non-starfleet ships, exceptions for member species ships in these conflicting times would be befitting of an upgraded Variants ship, a Vulcan Science Academy Ship, a new Kumari.
Hell Honestly the Andorians were my Favorite part of Enterprise.
If they did a Enterprise Era Lockbox with a T6 Kumari & K'tanco I would be all over that like Tribbles in a cargo bay filled with poisoned grain.
Tell me about it, ive gone through about 6 different ships for my ferasan but no matter what i choose none feel right to me and oh my god the one thing i loved about Enterprise was we got more Andorians, shame they didn't actually do a Enterprise lox box i would have loved a D5
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
ill believe that when i get a GODDAM ferasan ship.
You and me both, been using Breen ships and the Jem HEC for my e Ferasans for a while now. I still have to grab at least one of the Gorn Ships though.
While I only have 1 Gorn, 2nd or 3rd character I ever made, 1st KDF, I've subsequently made 3 Ferasans, and 2 Reman. Heck my KDF main is an Andorian looking Alien, with my first character as. Fed, back when you had to start that way was Andorian.
I would like to see a bit more love for Ferasans, Orions. One of the Nausican Fish ships upgraded(what my Ferasans used while leveling).
As much as I don't like the idea of Feds in non-starfleet ships, exceptions for member species ships in these conflicting times would be befitting of an upgraded Variants ship, a Vulcan Science Academy Ship, a new Kumari.
Hell Honestly the Andorians were my Favorite part of Enterprise.
If they did a Enterprise Era Lockbox with a T6 Kumari & K'tanco I would be all over that like Tribbles in a cargo bay filled with poisoned grain.
Tell me about it, ive gone through about 6 different ships for my ferasan but no matter what i choose none feel right to me and oh my god the one thing i loved about Enterprise was we got more Andorians, shame they didn't actually do a Enterprise lox box i would have loved a D5
The Breen ships do it for my Ferasan - especially the Chel Grett and the raider with Dominion sets. Also the temporal raider with the Dominion set. But then again, my Ferasan is purple so.....
I guess part of it comes out to whether you're talking PvP or just PvE, but there's also the subtle statement involved-this is the third major KDF release that's taken a hit to turn rate directly compared to it's fed counterpart. Turn rate and handling are a huge difference, and were initially a huge difference between the factions. This wasnt' inverted until the Bortascrew/Oddy release-which also generated poor sales.
You see a meaningful trend, but here's a trend that will be much more improtant for the future KDF support: KDF ships selling well.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The Breen ships do it for my Ferasan - especially the Chel Grett and the raider with Dominion sets. Also the temporal raider with the Dominion set. But then again, my Ferasan is purple so.....
Use the Breen ships on my Ferasan Engineer and Science Captain, My Ferasan Tactical captain used the T5 Jem HEC & Dread, and now the T6 Jem HEC.
Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
New Content Wishlist
T6 updates for the Kamarag & Vor'Cha
Heavy Cruiser & a Movie Era Style AoY Utility Cruiser
While I agree with several points you make, I must disagree with you on the D7. It is quite literally in every way superior to the Fed counterpart. It has lower turnrate, but has Battle Cloak—not just standard Cloak—and Intel seating rather than the (mostly) useless Command that the Connie has. The D7 is the superior Klingon Warship and everything the Feds wish they had in a ship.
I guess part of it comes out to whether you're talking PvP or just PvE, but there's also the subtle statement involved-this is the third major KDF release that's taken a hit to turn rate directly compared to it's fed counterpart. Turn rate and handling are a huge difference, and were initially a huge difference between the factions. This wasnt' inverted until the Bortascrew/Oddy release-which also generated poor sales.
You see a meaningful trend, but here's a trend that will be much more improtant for the future KDF support: KDF ships selling well.
we're seeing the problem from different points, Mustrum. What I"m seeing is some fairly obvious moves to make sure they don't sell well, or more specifically, that the faction is made less desirable to purchasers than either Fed, or Romu-Fed.
No, that seems very unlikely. These ships cost precious develoment resources to make. if they make them intentionally bad, they are throwing away money. if thye want to get rid of the KDF for some reason, they can just not release KDF ships.
Your theory would suggest that they are intentionally hurting themselves. If you don't realize how unlikely that sounds, I really can't help you. At least on these matters. Keep writing some Klingon historical fiction, you're good at that.
these new ships, they take a hit to the shields for no reason, they also take a hit to turn rate for no reason, and with a measly 2000 extra hit points, they aren't exactly significantly tougher to make up for it, nor do they have a specific trick that justifies the hit they take, other than "We condescended to make one for the Klingons too-even though we didn't want to."
It is a measly 0.5 points of turn rate. Think about it: 0.5 points.
You're ridicilously overrating the negative difference while at the same time completely underrating the positive difference because only then does it fit your personal narrative.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The weird thing is that, as I understand it, the vast majority of the effort with the new ships is making the models. Stats are relatively flexible, they can (and have) been corrected on the fly. Anyway, given that Cryptic's team appear to be well behind the PVP / DPS playerbase on mechanics, I suspect that they actually do think that the trades of turn/shields for hull, or power for singularity abilities, are balanced.
That said, I do think that turn rate is an underestimated attribute on sci ships; it's why I still run my Korath over the newer ships. More time on target means more time dealing exotic death.
I think after seven years, someone over there has to have at least a moderate grasp of the mechanics of game combat, but you could be right, particularly if the only time most of them 'taste the sauce' is on developer accounts and closed servers, it certainly presents a more benign explanation than the alternative for some of their decisions regarding certain factions and game mechanics.
But as you've often pointed out - it looks like there are no Dev staff left from launch, and none who play PVP or DPS-league synergy chasing. IIRC, they've explicitly stated they don't even try to plan around the 100K+ DPS crowd.
I guess part of it comes out to whether you're talking PvP or just PvE, but there's also the subtle statement involved-this is the third major KDF release that's taken a hit to turn rate directly compared to it's fed counterpart. Turn rate and handling are a huge difference, and were initially a huge difference between the factions. This wasnt' inverted until the Bortascrew/Oddy release-which also generated poor sales.
You see a meaningful trend, but here's a trend that will be much more improtant for the future KDF support: KDF ships selling well.
we're seeing the problem from different points, Mustrum. What I"m seeing is some fairly obvious moves to make sure they don't sell well, or more specifically, that the faction is made less desirable to purchasers than either Fed, or Romu-Fed.
No, that seems very unlikely. These ships cost precious develoment resources to make. if they make them intentionally bad, they are throwing away money. if thye want to get rid of the KDF for some reason, they can just not release KDF ships.
Your theory would suggest that they are intentionally hurting themselves. If you don't realize how unlikely that sounds, I really can't help you. At least on these matters. Keep writing some Klingon historical fiction, you're good at that.
these new ships, they take a hit to the shields for no reason, they also take a hit to turn rate for no reason, and with a measly 2000 extra hit points, they aren't exactly significantly tougher to make up for it, nor do they have a specific trick that justifies the hit they take, other than "We condescended to make one for the Klingons too-even though we didn't want to."
It is a measly 0.5 points of turn rate. Think about it: 0.5 points.
You're ridicilously overrating the negative difference while at the same time completely underrating the positive difference because only then does it fit your personal narrative.
Mustrum, people hurt themselves intentionally all the time, esp. if they don't actually think of the damage as damage.
Maybe you're right, I see it all the time when you invent this conspiracy of KDF hate and make Geko your white whale. Nothing constructive is accomplished, the only effect you can hope to get is that people don't even consider playing the KDF or buying ships for the KDF, only contributing to the marginalization of KDF.
The description "Passive/Aggressive" is pretty well documented, and fits with how Cryptic has handled the KDF since at least the late Stahl era.
Well documented means: "I make assumptions on what Geko and other people at Cryptic are really thinking, usually preferring the worst possible interpretation."
I have no idea why they think think that there needed to be a turn rate difference between the Fed variants and the KDF and Rom variants, I also never got why they gave the original Nebula a sucktastic turn rate either. But I find it unlikely that there was some passive aggressiveness going on against Nebula fans or KDF and Rom fans, and I really think it was to give these ships some factional or species-like differences. That also is pretty consistent with the decision to give the Gorn vessel more hull than the Fed ships.
That they don't have the exact same balance math in their mind as you do is not a sign of their barely suppressed hatred and disdain for the KDF. It's just a sign that they think 0.5 turn rate rate and a 0.05 shield modifiers is fairly compensated with 2.000 hull.
There ARE staff left from launch, but my HYPOTHESIS is that key people have moved on. (if it's been too long since school, or if some of you are still there but not at that point yet, an Hypothesis is an educated guess supported by some evidence. 99% of the time, they're wrong once you get to testing them. I accept the possibility that I'm flat wrong on these subjects.-end disclaimer.)
I am working on a project that is now about 11 or 12 year old, and a lot of the staff that worked on it is now long gone. We still manage to maintain it just fine, and our project is now doing completely new things and many of the old things it did in new ways. Unless your staff is fired on the spot and replaced by new, there is always a sense of continuity and it's not even required to have the old people.
Also... It might be very dangerous to assume that the original developers (if they are significantly different from the current ones) actually had any solid grasp on what they were doing in terms of game design.
The original form the powers were designed wasn't all that systematic and well thought out, and many powers were poorly implemented, and they were definitely not balanced. It took a big seasonal update and several weeks in Tribble testing to make the powers make more sense and provide a more general level of utility.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
2,000 Hull points and -.5 shield points and -.5 turn rate compared to fed ships is small nothing, it's a symbolic gesture to make each ship feel more distinct, its a border line ribbon festure, its far from making Gorn ships unplayable, the new Gorn ships are still some of the best Science ships in the game.
The diffences are so tiny, one is more hull tanky by a tiny bit and the other is just a tiny bit faster at turning and just a tiny bit higher shields.
This is a good day for the Empire, more Science ships an area where its needed more and we finally have T6 Gorn ships which are lets be honest, are way better then the previous ones and yet can use all the consoles, including the Varanus healing platforms!
I just don't get the people who think the Gorn Multimission Science Ships aren't good.
I didn't really notice anything odd about the turn rate, and I play currently the Recon version of the Fed and the KDF version. Currently no time for the Romulans.
I noticed a performance difference between the two characters in terms of survivability, but when I investigated (thanks to reddit.com/r/stobuilds for the support), I found that a major difference was that I equipped a lot of shield boosting stuff on my Fed that I didn't have for my Orion. A respec and two item upgrades later, I got in the same area of shields. There is still stuff to do (I need to get more science consoles from the Fleet Research Lab, for example), but this already made the performance considerably more satisfying.
My visit to the Tzenkethi Front (Advanced) seemed to do notably better, no deaths, and less panic heal-clicking. And this time I did it without starship traits and personal traits because I forgot that the respec would remove them. Will be interesting to see how she does when I have all the traits slotted.
In general, I am amazed how well Science is doing these days. I basially only PUG, and I also did Gateway to Grethor for the Iconian Elite Marks to get myself the new set. The initial Iconian Spawns around the bases you must defeat in the beginning of the mission - I soloed one easily with a lot of science and console spam, and I was already done when the rest of the team was still doing the other side.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I am relatively used to drawing aggro as Science Ship Captain, but usually only when I actually use powers.
I am still levelling the Recon, I'll try to observe any unusual aggro behaviour as I switch ships. And when I find the time for it, I might describe my current build, even if it's not optimal yet. Will take some time to get the full Iconian Set.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
[PEN] lowers your hull's effective hull resistance. More hull is still better than less hull against [PEN]!
That's like saying more shields is useless, because you go against people that Shield Penetration (ignores shields) and Shield Weakening (lowers shield reduction). There aren't any shield heals that are percentage based, either!
Those hits are however are tiny. We're talking 1.35 to 1.4 for shields, and 11.5 to 12 for turn rate and
3 % more shields and 4 % more turn rate versus 5 % more hull.
If you want to talk about miniscule differences - the disruptor proc is generally seen as better than the phaser proc, and the Gorn got the better proc.
A very flexible ship.
I really love the Elite Gorn Heavy Fighters, tractor beam, disruptor beam array, chronition torpedoes, and torpedo spread II make for cool pets, and they look awesome too.
So pretty good firepower for a science ship, but good science too.
Plus the Khaimas looks like a Gorn Defiant.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
The Breen ships do it for my Ferasan - especially the Chel Grett and the raider with Dominion sets. Also the temporal raider with the Dominion set. But then again, my Ferasan is purple so.....
You see a meaningful trend, but here's a trend that will be much more improtant for the future KDF support: KDF ships selling well.
Use the Breen ships on my Ferasan Engineer and Science Captain, My Ferasan Tactical captain used the T5 Jem HEC & Dread, and now the T6 Jem HEC.
Your theory would suggest that they are intentionally hurting themselves. If you don't realize how unlikely that sounds, I really can't help you. At least on these matters. Keep writing some Klingon historical fiction, you're good at that.
It is a measly 0.5 points of turn rate. Think about it: 0.5 points.
You're ridicilously overrating the negative difference while at the same time completely underrating the positive difference because only then does it fit your personal narrative.
That said, I do think that turn rate is an underestimated attribute on sci ships; it's why I still run my Korath over the newer ships. More time on target means more time dealing exotic death.
But as you've often pointed out - it looks like there are no Dev staff left from launch, and none who play PVP or DPS-league synergy chasing. IIRC, they've explicitly stated they don't even try to plan around the 100K+ DPS crowd.
Well documented means: "I make assumptions on what Geko and other people at Cryptic are really thinking, usually preferring the worst possible interpretation."
I have no idea why they think think that there needed to be a turn rate difference between the Fed variants and the KDF and Rom variants, I also never got why they gave the original Nebula a sucktastic turn rate either. But I find it unlikely that there was some passive aggressiveness going on against Nebula fans or KDF and Rom fans, and I really think it was to give these ships some factional or species-like differences. That also is pretty consistent with the decision to give the Gorn vessel more hull than the Fed ships.
That they don't have the exact same balance math in their mind as you do is not a sign of their barely suppressed hatred and disdain for the KDF. It's just a sign that they think 0.5 turn rate rate and a 0.05 shield modifiers is fairly compensated with 2.000 hull.
I am working on a project that is now about 11 or 12 year old, and a lot of the staff that worked on it is now long gone. We still manage to maintain it just fine, and our project is now doing completely new things and many of the old things it did in new ways. Unless your staff is fired on the spot and replaced by new, there is always a sense of continuity and it's not even required to have the old people.
Also... It might be very dangerous to assume that the original developers (if they are significantly different from the current ones) actually had any solid grasp on what they were doing in terms of game design.
The original form the powers were designed wasn't all that systematic and well thought out, and many powers were poorly implemented, and they were definitely not balanced. It took a big seasonal update and several weeks in Tribble testing to make the powers make more sense and provide a more general level of utility.
The diffences are so tiny, one is more hull tanky by a tiny bit and the other is just a tiny bit faster at turning and just a tiny bit higher shields.
This is a good day for the Empire, more Science ships an area where its needed more and we finally have T6 Gorn ships which are lets be honest, are way better then the previous ones and yet can use all the consoles, including the Varanus healing platforms!
I just don't get the people who think the Gorn Multimission Science Ships aren't good.
Stats wise it's not a bad science ships, so I don't know why your having such issues.
Any one else want to speak to your experiencies with the Gorn Multimission Science Ships?
And I saw a video where someone used the shield stripping/secondary shield console, and it's just ripped the shields off a Borg cube in seconds.
Also from what I've seen the Gorn Heavy Fighters look awesome, and at Elite can fire Chroniton Torpedo spreads.
I didn't really notice anything odd about the turn rate, and I play currently the Recon version of the Fed and the KDF version. Currently no time for the Romulans.
I noticed a performance difference between the two characters in terms of survivability, but when I investigated (thanks to reddit.com/r/stobuilds for the support), I found that a major difference was that I equipped a lot of shield boosting stuff on my Fed that I didn't have for my Orion. A respec and two item upgrades later, I got in the same area of shields. There is still stuff to do (I need to get more science consoles from the Fleet Research Lab, for example), but this already made the performance considerably more satisfying.
My visit to the Tzenkethi Front (Advanced) seemed to do notably better, no deaths, and less panic heal-clicking. And this time I did it without starship traits and personal traits because I forgot that the respec would remove them. Will be interesting to see how she does when I have all the traits slotted.
In general, I am amazed how well Science is doing these days. I basially only PUG, and I also did Gateway to Grethor for the Iconian Elite Marks to get myself the new set. The initial Iconian Spawns around the bases you must defeat in the beginning of the mission - I soloed one easily with a lot of science and console spam, and I was already done when the rest of the team was still doing the other side.
I am still levelling the Recon, I'll try to observe any unusual aggro behaviour as I switch ships. And when I find the time for it, I might describe my current build, even if it's not optimal yet. Will take some time to get the full Iconian Set.