Well if he thinks so he can feel free to put it into canon .
He already did, its called Star Trek: Beyond.
Yeah, he basically explained that due to the unique nature in which Nero traveled back in time, the changes rippled backward as well as forward from that point, making the KT Timeline not just an alternate timeline that diverged from his incursion point, but a completely alternate universe.
That explanation was necessary, because otherwise many of the changes made in KT didn't make sense otherwise as they didn't conform to how we "know" time travel "works": The Klingons of KT shouldn't have had ANY ridges due to the Augment virus. The Caitian girls didn't look like cats at all, though they did have tails. These things couldn't be explained by a simple "he went back and changed the past, so everything going forward is different". Yeah, that works for explaining why Kirk didn't go to the Academy when he originally did or other events like that, but simple time travel wouldn't explain why an entire race's evolutionary track would be different especially since their evolution would've occured prior to the time incursion.
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if people have to wonder or ask if something is part of the official story...its not.
Example: TNG ep Qpuid shows Data getting penetrated by a simple arrow; Star Trek: First Contact shows him practically bullet proof.
Thats a contradiction within what you define as 'common sense canon'. But they are making their own canon questionable within these 2 scripts...forcing me as a viewer to sit here and say 'hm...in canon how impenetrable is Data?
Canon is contradictory occasionally. We can't do anything about it.
But for those scenes: It appeared to me that the bullets did penetrate Data's body - but it didn't bother him. I don't think that arrow really hurt him either, did it?
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And I have a lot of troubling accepting TAS as canon, considering the sheer absurdity of some of its concepts. For instance, the Earth/Ferasan War that supposedly happened in the 2060s.
And that's more difficult to accept than the Eugenics war happening in the 90s? It's TOS/TAS, it all gets retconed later, don't sweet it.
Except the JJ Films themselves have never made a real 'in film' statement regarding whether the 'Kelvinverse' is just a divergent timeline - OR a completely separate 'Universe/Reality' (much like what fans call the 'Mirror Universe')
Firstly they are not called the 'JJ films' they are called the Kelvin Timeline films, that's the official name of the series, just as Star Trek: Deep Space 9 is the official name of the show set on the space station in the Bajor system.
Do you know why it's called the Kelvin Timeline? For the same reason Deep Space 9 is called Deep Space 9. That's where it's set. It's literally spelt out that the point of divergence was the attack on the Kelvin, not before, not after, the attack. Hence the Kelvin Timeline. Spock, Nero, and the Jellyfish came from the Prime Timeline. Again, 'timeline', not 'universe'.
- but, given what has been shown in the JJ Verse films (and most recently 'ST:Beyond'); I would tend to believe it's a separate Universe/Reality that the Narada and the Jellyfish (with 'original Spock') fell into after passing through the singularity.
There was nothing in BEY that contradicts the fact that it's the PT up until the attack on the Kelvin.
It would explain the massive visual/technological differences as well as go far in explaining the different look of all the characters.
What massive visual/technological differences? Prior to the attack on the Kelvin? Like what? We see 4 mins of footage of the Kelvin and about 10 mins of the Franklin, what are these massive visual/technological differences that are so different to the supposed prime timelines Kelvin era?
People that can't handle the fact that visual aesthetics change (like ENT did for TOS, or TMP did for TOS, or TWoK did for TMP, or DS9 did for TNG) are the reason Pegg feels the need to contradict how ST time travel works.
The Kelvin looks exactly how the NX would look if you let it go rusty. There is the sum of zero parts of the Kelvin, Franklin or any of the pre-Nero bits that are not clear evaluation in aesthetic and design from ENT.
Yeah, he basically explained that due to the unique nature in which Nero traveled back in time, the changes rippled backward as well as forward from that point, making the KT Timeline not just an alternate timeline that diverged from his incursion point, but a completely alternate universe.
Contradicted by canon evidence of how Time Travel works in Star Trek and also the official name of the series, 'timeline', not 'universe'.
The Caitian girls didn't look like cats at all, though they did have tails.
There were no Caitians in the KT films. A man with no knowledge of makeup, casting, script, character, in short no involvement with the relevant parts of the films said words to the effect of 'sure, why not' to a fan submitted question by a clearly blind fan who cannot tell the difference between cats and Cardassians with tails. No retcon needed.
but simple time travel wouldn't explain why an entire race's evolutionary track would be different especially since their evolution would've occured prior to the time incursion.
And as no races evolutionary track was altered there's no need for this incorrect explanation that contradicts how Time Travel works in ST.
Filmmaker statements have always overridden on screen material. I mean there is nothing on screen anywhere that says Saavik is half- romulan, but Gene said she is, so she is. Same with the (often) wildly variable on screen sizes of ships, the only figures which matter are the officially stated ones.
Or alternatively, the complete other way around. Canon overrules absolutely anything anybody behind the scenes says. Saavik has no mentioned parentage in the film, so no matter what anybody else says she is Vulcan with no other details. Books can be written about the size of the BoP untill they're blue in the face, it still doesn't change the onscreen canon evidence that the ship is overwhelmingly ~100m even if it's size does change from time to time in the same film. Same with the Konstitution, it's more often ~360m than it is ~600, so it's ~360m. Paramount can release all the books and figures they want, but the screen you're watching the 2m tall Spock walk across a 3m window overrules that.
“Canon” in the sense that I use it is a very important tool. It only gets muddled when people try to incorporate licensed products into “canon”—and I know a lot of the fans really like to do that. Sorry, guys—not trying to rain on your parade. There’s a lot of bickering about it among fans, but in its purest sense, it’s really pretty simple: Canon is Star Trek continuity as presented on TV and Movie screens. Licensed products like books and comics aren’t part of that continuity, so they aren’t canon. And that’s that. Part of my job in licensing is to keep track of TV and Movie continuity, so I can help direct licensees in their creation of licensed products. It gets a little tricky because it’s constantly evolving, and over the years, Star Trek’s various producers and scriptwriters haven’t always kept track of/remembered/cared about what’s come before. Source: http://trekmovie.com/2007/07/22/dc-fontana-on-tas-canon-and-sybok/
Unless you see anything there about BtS stuff including the glowing force ghost of Gene?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Well if he thinks so he can feel free to put it into canon .
He already did, its called Star Trek: Beyond.
Yeah, he basically explained that due to the unique nature in which Nero traveled back in time, the changes rippled backward as well as forward from that point, making the KT Timeline not just an alternate timeline that diverged from his incursion point, but a completely alternate universe.
That explanation was necessary, because otherwise many of the changes made in KT didn't make sense otherwise as they didn't conform to how we "know" time travel "works": The Klingons of KT shouldn't have had ANY ridges due to the Augment virus. The Caitian girls didn't look like cats at all, though they did have tails. These things couldn't be explained by a simple "he went back and changed the past, so everything going forward is different". Yeah, that works for explaining why Kirk didn't go to the Academy when he originally did or other events like that, but simple time travel wouldn't explain why an entire race's evolutionary track would be different especially since their evolution would've occured prior to the time incursion.
I tend to think of the Kelvin Universe similar to how various SF shows and movies have done pseudo-time travel like Michael Crichton's Timeline and one of the Sliders episodes. They don't travel backward or forward in time, but to another dimension that looks like the future or past. If the Kelvin Universe is a parallel universe, then it doesn't matter how much difference there is between the Kelvin Universe and Prime Universe before 2233.
If we go with the changes rippled backward as well as forward theory, then some of the new historical content introduced in the Kelvin Universe movies like Krall would have to be in the Prime Universe. There might be the U.S.S. Franklin and Captain Edison in the Prime Universe, but whether he crashed on some alien planet and became Krall is unknown. Might be a story that is revealed in Star Trek: Discovery and could go either way. They could introduce Krall as a villain of the show, find the Franklin, or make a brief mention about the Franklin being destroyed in battle, decommissioned, or some other fate. It is easier to just set the Kelvin Universe in a parallel universe and ignore the vast majority of content from the Prime Universe.
I found this, though it doesn't say specifically what is considered canon. It does say that it is "generally defined as all released television series and feature films since the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD."
Not a fan of JJtrek or his version. There is so much they could explore and tell in the prime universe(thank you Gene ). I don't know why people feel the need to change what is already great.
The first Belfast was commanded by Captain Ve'Kal Shon until its destruction in 2409. A new ship was commissioned bearing the same name and registry as special dispensation to then newly promoted Captain Edward XIII for his pivotal role during the renewed Dominion War.
I found this, though it doesn't say specifically what is considered canon. It does say that it is "generally defined as all released television series and feature films since the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD."[/quote]
Yea this article and the databse listed on startrek.com were only real attempts at defining official canon that I could find.
But still, there is nothing written in stone for us to use in this debate.
I truly think each trekkie has his/her own idea of what 'canon' is....and while that goes against the definition of the term canon, its all we have atm.
Comments
Yeah, he basically explained that due to the unique nature in which Nero traveled back in time, the changes rippled backward as well as forward from that point, making the KT Timeline not just an alternate timeline that diverged from his incursion point, but a completely alternate universe.
That explanation was necessary, because otherwise many of the changes made in KT didn't make sense otherwise as they didn't conform to how we "know" time travel "works": The Klingons of KT shouldn't have had ANY ridges due to the Augment virus. The Caitian girls didn't look like cats at all, though they did have tails. These things couldn't be explained by a simple "he went back and changed the past, so everything going forward is different". Yeah, that works for explaining why Kirk didn't go to the Academy when he originally did or other events like that, but simple time travel wouldn't explain why an entire race's evolutionary track would be different especially since their evolution would've occured prior to the time incursion.
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But for those scenes: It appeared to me that the bullets did penetrate Data's body - but it didn't bother him. I don't think that arrow really hurt him either, did it?
Nope. No mention in that film is made of his pet theory of time travel travelling backwards from the change.
And that's more difficult to accept than the Eugenics war happening in the 90s? It's TOS/TAS, it all gets retconed later, don't sweet it.
Firstly they are not called the 'JJ films' they are called the Kelvin Timeline films, that's the official name of the series, just as Star Trek: Deep Space 9 is the official name of the show set on the space station in the Bajor system.
Do you know why it's called the Kelvin Timeline? For the same reason Deep Space 9 is called Deep Space 9. That's where it's set. It's literally spelt out that the point of divergence was the attack on the Kelvin, not before, not after, the attack. Hence the Kelvin Timeline. Spock, Nero, and the Jellyfish came from the Prime Timeline. Again, 'timeline', not 'universe'.
There was nothing in BEY that contradicts the fact that it's the PT up until the attack on the Kelvin.
What massive visual/technological differences? Prior to the attack on the Kelvin? Like what? We see 4 mins of footage of the Kelvin and about 10 mins of the Franklin, what are these massive visual/technological differences that are so different to the supposed prime timelines Kelvin era?
People that can't handle the fact that visual aesthetics change (like ENT did for TOS, or TMP did for TOS, or TWoK did for TMP, or DS9 did for TNG) are the reason Pegg feels the need to contradict how ST time travel works.
The Kelvin looks exactly how the NX would look if you let it go rusty. There is the sum of zero parts of the Kelvin, Franklin or any of the pre-Nero bits that are not clear evaluation in aesthetic and design from ENT.
Contradicted by canon evidence of how Time Travel works in Star Trek and also the official name of the series, 'timeline', not 'universe'.
The idea of the whole population being affected is not canon. So no retcon necessary.
There were no Caitians in the KT films. A man with no knowledge of makeup, casting, script, character, in short no involvement with the relevant parts of the films said words to the effect of 'sure, why not' to a fan submitted question by a clearly blind fan who cannot tell the difference between cats and Cardassians with tails. No retcon needed.
And as no races evolutionary track was altered there's no need for this incorrect explanation that contradicts how Time Travel works in ST.
Or alternatively, the complete other way around. Canon overrules absolutely anything anybody behind the scenes says. Saavik has no mentioned parentage in the film, so no matter what anybody else says she is Vulcan with no other details. Books can be written about the size of the BoP untill they're blue in the face, it still doesn't change the onscreen canon evidence that the ship is overwhelmingly ~100m even if it's size does change from time to time in the same film. Same with the Konstitution, it's more often ~360m than it is ~600, so it's ~360m. Paramount can release all the books and figures they want, but the screen you're watching the 2m tall Spock walk across a 3m window overrules that.
Unless you see anything there about BtS stuff including the glowing force ghost of Gene?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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living out the dev's fantasies, mine would be less homicidal than my sto chars
I tend to think of the Kelvin Universe similar to how various SF shows and movies have done pseudo-time travel like Michael Crichton's Timeline and one of the Sliders episodes. They don't travel backward or forward in time, but to another dimension that looks like the future or past. If the Kelvin Universe is a parallel universe, then it doesn't matter how much difference there is between the Kelvin Universe and Prime Universe before 2233.
If we go with the changes rippled backward as well as forward theory, then some of the new historical content introduced in the Kelvin Universe movies like Krall would have to be in the Prime Universe. There might be the U.S.S. Franklin and Captain Edison in the Prime Universe, but whether he crashed on some alien planet and became Krall is unknown. Might be a story that is revealed in Star Trek: Discovery and could go either way. They could introduce Krall as a villain of the show, find the Franklin, or make a brief mention about the Franklin being destroyed in battle, decommissioned, or some other fate. It is easier to just set the Kelvin Universe in a parallel universe and ignore the vast majority of content from the Prime Universe.
*Cracks Knuckles* makes me wanna break out the mega wedgie its been 26 years since i last ripped someones underwear elastic.
I found this, though it doesn't say specifically what is considered canon. It does say that it is "generally defined as all released television series and feature films since the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD."
The first Belfast was commanded by Captain Ve'Kal Shon until its destruction in 2409. A new ship was commissioned bearing the same name and registry as special dispensation to then newly promoted Captain Edward XIII for his pivotal role during the renewed Dominion War.
I found this, though it doesn't say specifically what is considered canon. It does say that it is "generally defined as all released television series and feature films since the release of Star Trek: The Animated Series on DVD."[/quote]
Yea this article and the databse listed on startrek.com were only real attempts at defining official canon that I could find.
But still, there is nothing written in stone for us to use in this debate.
I truly think each trekkie has his/her own idea of what 'canon' is....and while that goes against the definition of the term canon, its all we have atm.
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Twitter: @realKetwolski