This is what happens sometimes. The idea was to show the state overreaching as a way to demonstrate how bad things had gotten, and in my haste, I kinda screwed it up by not looking for a feminine perspective before posting.
Since I'm kinda not working with my usual cabal of collabos, I admit I'm going to make more mistakes-you're dead right that I got that wrong. my only excuse is that it was meant to show how previously respected individual rights were being trampled by the crisis.
I was thinking on this....it is war.
She could have been injured (during retaliatory strike or a surprise attack or friendly fire or accident, in some sort of chaos of battle) in such a way she could no longer bear children. And after a period of recovery, threw her heart and soul into her work. Because that was all she had as a woman to create. Therefore, her inventions were her "babies". I think, that is more of what you were trying to get across with that character.
As far as state sanctioned TRIBBLE. Take that out. It is horrible.
These women are SMART. They know biology. They know we are capable of doing something men can not, physiologically. This would expected this as a part of their lives...not a surprise. AND IT WOULD BE A NORMAL THING...you wouldn't have to ask it of them.
And, I would think it would be desirable to pass along the genetics that makes her smart along to the next generation. (Survival and future, again). Men would be looking for that in the women. That man who is to be the father.....better be bringing some top notch qualities, himself.
This would make the science ladies even more of a prize. They probably have brave warrior men lined up out the door for a chance.
You would want children that were smarter, stronger, cunning, thinking and athletic. The Klingons in your story are not to the point of genetically engineered children, yet....they can't pick and choose anything but partners.
And what do you think that Emperor would try to push people to do?
A future where WOMEN and MEN were smart and stand strong. Because of what got passed down from their parents....not just the circumstances.
And isn't this what we see in the Klingons of now?
PS Sorry, for taking up so much of your time....but I had to get this stuff off my chest. I have not read any more of your story, yet...I will try later. I want to get DOFFing and Admiralty done so I can spend the weekend doing this stupid TOS character.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
These women are SMART. They know biology. They know we are capable of doing something men can not, physiologically. This would expected this as a part of their lives...not a surprise. AND IT WOULD BE A NORMAL THING...you wouldn't have to ask it of them.
Except that Klingons seem to be just as vulnerable as Humans to the tendency to acknowledge the logic of a chain of reasoning - and yet at some level assume that applies to someone else, not oneself. Sure, the race must continue, and we have to keep the birth rate high - but I'm engaged in important work, and someone else can surely have my quota of children instead...
This is what happens sometimes. The idea was to show the state overreaching as a way to demonstrate how bad things had gotten, and in my haste, I kinda screwed it up by not looking for a feminine perspective before posting.
Since I'm kinda not working with my usual cabal of collabos, I admit I'm going to make more mistakes-you're dead right that I got that wrong. my only excuse is that it was meant to show how previously respected individual rights were being trampled by the crisis.
I was thinking on this....it is war.
She could have been injured (during retaliatory strike or a surprise attack or friendly fire or accident, in some sort of chaos of battle) in such a way she could no longer bear children. And after a period of recovery, threw her heart and soul into her work. Because that was all she had as a woman to create. Therefore, her inventions were her "babies". I think, that is more of what you were trying to get across with that character.
As far as state sanctioned ****. Take that out. It is horrible.
These women are SMART. They know biology. They know we are capable of doing something men can not, physiologically. This would expected this as a part of their lives...not a surprise. AND IT WOULD BE A NORMAL THING...you wouldn't have to ask it of them.
And, I would think it would be desirable to pass along the genetics that makes her smart along to the next generation. (Survival and future, again). Men would be looking for that in the women. That man who is to be the father.....better be bringing some top notch qualities, himself.
This would make the science ladies even more of a prize. They probably have brave warrior men lined up out the door for a chance.
You would want children that were smarter, stronger, cunning, thinking and athletic. The Klingons in your story are not to the point of genetically engineered children, yet....they can't pick and choose anything but partners.
And what do you think that Emperor would try to push people to do?
A future where WOMEN and MEN were smart and stand strong. Because of what got passed down from their parents....not just the circumstances.
And isn't this what we see in the Klingons of now?
PS Sorry, for taking up so much of your time....but I had to get this stuff off my chest. I have not read any more of your story, yet...I will try later. I want to get DOFFing and Admiralty done so I can spend the weekend doing this stupid TOS character.
Yes, it is... As a reader, you Do Not have the right to dictate that a writer ammend their work. By all means disagree with it, but Do Not tell someone to take out something which You find objectionable...
It's actually supposed to be horrible. I mean genuinely, actually horrible.
Well, you made the point....if that is how you wish to make it. I feel it can be made in a less crass way.
Unless she's busy, unless she thinks her work is too important to interrupt for any reason at all...and not that she's wrong-she isn't, from a certain point of view.
This is what I mean you are looking at her character from a man's point of view.
Women aren't too busy to forget we are what we are. We can't get away from the fact that our bodies are built for babies (you know, "those" are not actually for being ogled at).
Though, I will give you this point: under stressful situations our bodies will shut down the process (you know, the monthly moon tide in humans...not sure how it works for a Klingon. Do the Klingon women go through, for lack of a better word, "heat" cycles? ).
LOL! Though that won't help the cause (so much for the future there).
This would make the science ladies even more of a prize. They probably have brave warrior men lined up out the door for a chance.
Well, at least we agree on that point.
+++++++++++++++++++++
P.S. Sorry about skipping over so much of your remarks...but it is getting late here. I will try to read the next part of your story another day. Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly and thoughtfully.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
It's actually supposed to be horrible. I mean genuinely, actually horrible.
Well, you made the point....if that is how you wish to make it. I feel it can be made in a less crass way.
Unless she's busy, unless she thinks her work is too important to interrupt for any reason at all...and not that she's wrong-she isn't, from a certain point of view.
This is what I mean you are looking at her character from a man's point of view.
Women aren't too busy to forget we are what we are. We can't get away from the fact that our bodies are built for babies (you know, "those" are not actually for being ogled at).
Though, I will give you this point: under stressful situations our bodies will shut down the process (you know, the monthly moon tide in humans...not sure how it works for a Klingon. Do the Klingon women go through, for lack of a better word, "heat" cycles? ).
LOL! Though that won't help the cause (so much for the future there).
This would make the science ladies even more of a prize. They probably have brave warrior men lined up out the door for a chance.
Well, at least we agree on that point.
+++++++++++++++++++++
P.S. Sorry about skipping over so much of your remarks...but it is getting late here. I will try to read the next part of your story another day. Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly and thoughtfully.
I believe, that Ren'wyl is a |esbian... Now I know |esbians who have had children with 'male intervention', I know |esbians who wish to use IVF (and as patrickngo noted, it stands to reason that Klingon science has not developped in those areas. Klingon medicine, even by the 24th century, was still lacking in many areas) and I know |esbians who not only have no children, but who craft and refer to their crafting process as birthing, and the work as their children... It is utterly believable for a |esbian in Ren'Wyl's situation, to utterly redirect her 'mating instinct' into the work which she does, rather than feeling any need or desire to have children.
Now I dare say that the destruction of families caused by the Hur'q invasion, is what lead to Klingon society's massive embracing and acceptance of adoption, of children into a House... (Such as when Worf 'adopted' Jeremy Aster as his brother... When Martok adopted Worf into his House) But at the time in which these events are set, such codes clearly aren't in practice, replacements need to be produced to prevent the extinction of a people, so it's easy (if unpleasant) to see why the Emperor made his edict, and how someone like Ren'Wyl, who is focused on their work above child-bearing, rather than work and child-bearing (because in her mind, there are no viable means to be a mother) would risk falling foul of it. If her work got her a waiver (because it would be impractical for crucial work to potentially be interrupted at a key point) there would also come a point where a population dip, and or less dire need for her work (once those prototypes were made to work) would result in that waiver being lifted...
Again, by all means find it disagreeable. By all means say "I didn't like that..." but don't demand content revisions of the author... The entitlement in that mind-set -- the expectation that a demand will be submitted to simply because it is made -- is as appalling as the notion which you were objecting to...
In my view, sexual orientation doesn't enter into it. For any species that bears live young, pregnancy is an inconvenience at best, full of distractions and hampering one's ability to do things. (My niece, who had been told for most of her adult life that she couldn't get pregnant, is now about three months along; she's having trouble maintaining her nail salon because it turns out that the baby really doesn't like the smell of nail polish, or virtually any other odorous chemical compound.)
And Ren'wyl knows that her work is important, that without it there's really no point in bothering with breeding programs because the Hur'q will wipe them out anyway. As I said before, it's much more convenient for her personally to assume someone else will do her breeding, and keep concentrating on designing and building new ships to take the fight to them...
somehow I don't think Klingon biology allows for Ponn-Farr, no.
I am going to take one more "stab" at this, this morning...then I am stopping. Because this is sooo not what I am trying to get across. THIS is not about URGES or anything porno-graphic. Gosh!
Yes, it does have to do with biology. It is very practical. And one should have learned about this in Jr. High....you shouldn't have to be an OB/GYN.
In order for a woman to be ready for CHILD bearing her body needs to go through "the cycle"...an important part of which is: ovulation. If there is no egg, there is no way there will be a baby.
And reproductive science being what it is in your story, who would know better than the woman herself...and she should make the decision of the time to mate.
Now, one could come to the conclusion Klingons may have to go through rough foreplay to trigger that "cycle". They never really say on the TV shows. But since it is one of few parts of their mating ritual (that is mentioned).
But THAT is definitely not the same as forced.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, I am interested in reading about:
Klingons of now, mate for life. Where did this come from?
Is it because their ancestors saw their families being torn apart? They saw that people joining together were the solution to survival during those chaotic times?
Everything was falling apart around them...they made bonds with each other and it helped them to stand strong? And this carried forward to today?
Uh....well, this stuff may be much too feminine for a story on a game forum....because I assume most of your audience would be men. They just wouldn't be that interested in this....they want the battles and the tech stuff.
Carry on.
P.S. still have not had the time to go back and read anything. Ugh... and getting no where on my TOS character. (I don't wanna play Fed... I may just give it up.)
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Uh....well, this stuff may be much too feminine for a story on a game forum....because I assume most of your audience would be men. They just wouldn't be that interested in this....they want the battles and the tech stuff.
Is this one of those hyper-feminist things I occasionally hear about...?
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Where, you're making a lot of assumptions based on Human biology. The statements don't apply to every species on this planet - why do you assume they're going to apply to aliens, Preservers or no Preservers?
For that matter, one of your statements is blatantly false - even Human women often don't know when they're ovulating. That's why the old joke goes that there's a name for people who use the "rhythm method" of birth control - parents.
somehow I don't think Klingon biology allows for Ponn-Farr, no.
I am going to take one more "stab" at this, this morning...then I am stopping. Because this is sooo not what I am trying to get across. THIS is not about URGES or anything porno-graphic. Gosh!
Yes, it does have to do with biology. It is very practical. And one should have learned about this in Jr. High....you shouldn't have to be an OB/GYN.
In order for a woman to be ready for CHILD bearing her body needs to go through "the cycle"...an important part of which is: ovulation. If there is no egg, there is no way there will be a baby.
And reproductive science being what it is in your story, who would know better than the woman herself...and she should make the decision of the time to mate.
Now, one could come to the conclusion Klingons may have to go through rough foreplay to trigger that "cycle". They never really say on the TV shows. But since it is one of few parts of their mating ritual (that is mentioned).
But THAT is definitely not the same as forced.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, I am interested in reading about:
Klingons of now, mate for life. Where did this come from?
Is it because their ancestors saw their families being torn apart? They saw that people joining together were the solution to survival during those chaotic times?
Everything was falling apart around them...they made bonds with each other and it helped them to stand strong? And this carried forward to today?
Uh....well, this stuff may be much too feminine for a story on a game forum....because I assume most of your audience would be men. They just wouldn't be that interested in this....they want the battles and the tech stuff.
Carry on.
P.S. still have not had the time to go back and read anything. Ugh... and getting no where on my TOS character. (I don't wanna play Fed... I may just give it up.)
Actually, having large extended families with co-husbands and co-wives (or even more free-form relationships) would be the best way of rebuilding a decimated population, with as broad a genetic base as possible, not tying a couple into the monotony of monogamy for the hundred-plus years which the Klingon lifespan would account for...
I'm enjoying reading the story so far. I've never read anything like this from a Klingon perspective before.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the discussion is focusing on this one aspect when there's so much more to talk about, but I guess I'll throw in my two quid. In a series I'm reading, one of the characters became the head of an influential household after the family was decimated during a war. One of her priorities is to bring in some heirs to maintain the line. The issue is that she doesn't swing that way. So she is depending on her younger sister to find a wealthy or influential man to produce those heirs with. Though this character is totally against procreating herself, as a last resort she would ultimately go through it herself for the sake of the future of her household.
The Klingons have spent generations watching their civilization get demolished all around them. They're going to do what they have to do to survive. If there's a few who choose not to "play along" with certain edicts, then so be it. They're still helping the war effort, still doing what they can to preserve what's left of Klingon society. I guess then the issue is whether the current Emperor is willing and able to enforce 100% compliance. And afterwards, would there be backlash against these women by not the rulers, but from less rational members of society? "While you were shut in that lab tinkering with your toys, I was raising warriors for the Empire!" Which a response to could be, "Those 'toys' are what kept your sons alive when they left to fight the H'urq." At the end of it there's reasons the Klingons lasted to build a space empire. What history says those reasons are, well, that issue has been brought up repeatedly in the story.
”...one would think the final offensive’s conclusion would be as celebrated, after nearly 200 years of constant warfare, as the wedding of Kahless-and you would be utterly and completely wrong.
Our people celebrate victory. The pursuit of the Hur’q ended not in victory, but rather, in a cessation as the foe slipped, somehow, out of our grasp. The impact of that war, and the lack of a conclusion, resonates still to this very moment. The pledge and the General Order remain in place. It has dictated the consequences, set the terms, The universe is harsh, and we must be harsher, that someday, we can finally force it into a shape that makes sense.”
-B’Vat, “Ruminations on The distant past.”
Perfectly explains the reaction Katie Kirk and co experienced when they went to Qo'noS after Khan... Three ships with over a dozen elite commandos on board each might seem like an over-reaction to a single small ship, but, viewed against the historical context of the cultural impact of the Hur'q, it would make perfect sense that there be a General Order to never again allow unannounced aliens to set foot on Qo'noS, and a pledge to uphold that stance. Makes absolutely perfect sense...
So was Kharne's family ready for this, somehow? It appears they overcame a squadron of people with weapons ready, if unprepared, with no casualties simply due to the Moral Rightness of Militarism.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Comments
I was thinking on this....it is war.
She could have been injured (during retaliatory strike or a surprise attack or friendly fire or accident, in some sort of chaos of battle) in such a way she could no longer bear children. And after a period of recovery, threw her heart and soul into her work. Because that was all she had as a woman to create. Therefore, her inventions were her "babies". I think, that is more of what you were trying to get across with that character.
As far as state sanctioned TRIBBLE. Take that out. It is horrible.
These women are SMART. They know biology. They know we are capable of doing something men can not, physiologically. This would expected this as a part of their lives...not a surprise. AND IT WOULD BE A NORMAL THING...you wouldn't have to ask it of them.
And, I would think it would be desirable to pass along the genetics that makes her smart along to the next generation. (Survival and future, again). Men would be looking for that in the women. That man who is to be the father.....better be bringing some top notch qualities, himself.
This would make the science ladies even more of a prize. They probably have brave warrior men lined up out the door for a chance.
You would want children that were smarter, stronger, cunning, thinking and athletic. The Klingons in your story are not to the point of genetically engineered children, yet....they can't pick and choose anything but partners.
And what do you think that Emperor would try to push people to do?
A future where WOMEN and MEN were smart and stand strong. Because of what got passed down from their parents....not just the circumstances.
And isn't this what we see in the Klingons of now?
PS Sorry, for taking up so much of your time....but I had to get this stuff off my chest. I have not read any more of your story, yet...I will try later. I want to get DOFFing and Admiralty done so I can spend the weekend doing this stupid TOS character.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Well, you made the point....if that is how you wish to make it. I feel it can be made in a less crass way.
This is what I mean you are looking at her character from a man's point of view.
Women aren't too busy to forget we are what we are. We can't get away from the fact that our bodies are built for babies (you know, "those" are not actually for being ogled at).
Though, I will give you this point: under stressful situations our bodies will shut down the process (you know, the monthly moon tide in humans...not sure how it works for a Klingon. Do the Klingon women go through, for lack of a better word, "heat" cycles? ).
LOL! Though that won't help the cause (so much for the future there).
Well, at least we agree on that point.
+++++++++++++++++++++
P.S. Sorry about skipping over so much of your remarks...but it is getting late here. I will try to read the next part of your story another day. Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly and thoughtfully.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Now I dare say that the destruction of families caused by the Hur'q invasion, is what lead to Klingon society's massive embracing and acceptance of adoption, of children into a House... (Such as when Worf 'adopted' Jeremy Aster as his brother... When Martok adopted Worf into his House) But at the time in which these events are set, such codes clearly aren't in practice, replacements need to be produced to prevent the extinction of a people, so it's easy (if unpleasant) to see why the Emperor made his edict, and how someone like Ren'Wyl, who is focused on their work above child-bearing, rather than work and child-bearing (because in her mind, there are no viable means to be a mother) would risk falling foul of it. If her work got her a waiver (because it would be impractical for crucial work to potentially be interrupted at a key point) there would also come a point where a population dip, and or less dire need for her work (once those prototypes were made to work) would result in that waiver being lifted...
Again, by all means find it disagreeable. By all means say "I didn't like that..." but don't demand content revisions of the author... The entitlement in that mind-set -- the expectation that a demand will be submitted to simply because it is made -- is as appalling as the notion which you were objecting to...
And Ren'wyl knows that her work is important, that without it there's really no point in bothering with breeding programs because the Hur'q will wipe them out anyway. As I said before, it's much more convenient for her personally to assume someone else will do her breeding, and keep concentrating on designing and building new ships to take the fight to them...
I am going to take one more "stab" at this, this morning...then I am stopping. Because this is sooo not what I am trying to get across. THIS is not about URGES or anything porno-graphic. Gosh!
Yes, it does have to do with biology. It is very practical. And one should have learned about this in Jr. High....you shouldn't have to be an OB/GYN.
In order for a woman to be ready for CHILD bearing her body needs to go through "the cycle"...an important part of which is: ovulation. If there is no egg, there is no way there will be a baby.
And reproductive science being what it is in your story, who would know better than the woman herself...and she should make the decision of the time to mate.
Now, one could come to the conclusion Klingons may have to go through rough foreplay to trigger that "cycle". They never really say on the TV shows. But since it is one of few parts of their mating ritual (that is mentioned).
But THAT is definitely not the same as forced.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, I am interested in reading about:
Klingons of now, mate for life. Where did this come from?
Is it because their ancestors saw their families being torn apart? They saw that people joining together were the solution to survival during those chaotic times?
Everything was falling apart around them...they made bonds with each other and it helped them to stand strong? And this carried forward to today?
Uh....well, this stuff may be much too feminine for a story on a game forum....because I assume most of your audience would be men. They just wouldn't be that interested in this....they want the battles and the tech stuff.
Carry on.
P.S. still have not had the time to go back and read anything. Ugh... and getting no where on my TOS character. (I don't wanna play Fed... I may just give it up.)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Is this one of those hyper-feminist things I occasionally hear about...?
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
For that matter, one of your statements is blatantly false - even Human women often don't know when they're ovulating. That's why the old joke goes that there's a name for people who use the "rhythm method" of birth control - parents.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the discussion is focusing on this one aspect when there's so much more to talk about, but I guess I'll throw in my two quid. In a series I'm reading, one of the characters became the head of an influential household after the family was decimated during a war. One of her priorities is to bring in some heirs to maintain the line. The issue is that she doesn't swing that way. So she is depending on her younger sister to find a wealthy or influential man to produce those heirs with. Though this character is totally against procreating herself, as a last resort she would ultimately go through it herself for the sake of the future of her household.
The Klingons have spent generations watching their civilization get demolished all around them. They're going to do what they have to do to survive. If there's a few who choose not to "play along" with certain edicts, then so be it. They're still helping the war effort, still doing what they can to preserve what's left of Klingon society. I guess then the issue is whether the current Emperor is willing and able to enforce 100% compliance. And afterwards, would there be backlash against these women by not the rulers, but from less rational members of society? "While you were shut in that lab tinkering with your toys, I was raising warriors for the Empire!" Which a response to could be, "Those 'toys' are what kept your sons alive when they left to fight the H'urq." At the end of it there's reasons the Klingons lasted to build a space empire. What history says those reasons are, well, that issue has been brought up repeatedly in the story.
”...one would think the final offensive’s conclusion would be as celebrated, after nearly 200 years of constant warfare, as the wedding of Kahless-and you would be utterly and completely wrong.
Our people celebrate victory. The pursuit of the Hur’q ended not in victory, but rather, in a cessation as the foe slipped, somehow, out of our grasp. The impact of that war, and the lack of a conclusion, resonates still to this very moment. The pledge and the General Order remain in place. It has dictated the consequences, set the terms, The universe is harsh, and we must be harsher, that someday, we can finally force it into a shape that makes sense.”
-B’Vat, “Ruminations on The distant past.”
Perfectly explains the reaction Katie Kirk and co experienced when they went to Qo'noS after Khan... Three ships with over a dozen elite commandos on board each might seem like an over-reaction to a single small ship, but, viewed against the historical context of the cultural impact of the Hur'q, it would make perfect sense that there be a General Order to never again allow unannounced aliens to set foot on Qo'noS, and a pledge to uphold that stance. Makes absolutely perfect sense...
Yep, Memory Alpha has an article on Reclaw that fits the bill - K'Trelan supposedly had the whole lot executed, just as Mo'ra suggested.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!