Everytime I hear suggestions that "metrics" should be used to determine decision making on "what people want", my head starts hurting.
The problem with going with metrics is that metrics by themselves don't really give much information than surface data. Metrics barely scratch the surface, it shows activity, nothing else, it points to directions that ACTUAL data analysis can go, not a replacement for actual analysis.
Metrics do nothing to even hint at the who's, what's, how's, or why's of an activity, and what would be needed to make a new product more succesful. Human engagement tells much more to the professional analyst that one million columns of metrics could.
Everytime I hear suggestions that "metrics" should be used to determine decision making on "what people want", my head starts hurting.
The problem with going with metrics is that metrics by themselves don't really give much information than surface data. Metrics barely scratch the surface, it shows activity, nothing else, it points to directions that ACTUAL data analysis can go, not a replacement for actual analysis.
Metrics do nothing to even hint at the who's, what's, how's, or why's of an activity, and what would be needed to make a new product more succesful. Human engagement tells much more to the professional analyst that one million columns of metrics could.
No it doesn't. "Human engagement" as you put it cannot be used to collect data on what the entire player base does or wants. Metrics may not give you the motives of your players, but they do show you what ALL of the players are doing.
I am curious what you think an "actual analysis" should be though. Interviewing thousands of people?
Why do we need to ask, when everyone is so eager to tell us already?
by asking for specific input, it gives our answers structure.
What you get here is a random mess
> input structure " Would you prefer more space centric missions or more ground centric missions ?"
now our answers are more useful - as long as the question produces answers from us that can be
easily turned into data.
Do you like this or that ? easy to turn into data
describe your dream ship - very hard to turn into useable data
so..as an answer Why do you need to ask ? So we can give you something useful
and I still want the tail option turned back on for Alien builds.....I will be persistant on that...MEOW
Players could easily be doing one thing because of the lack of another thing to them, adding more of the one thing wont necessarily be as successful as finding out what the customer is wanting and offering that.
No, one doesnt need thousand(s) of people interviewed just a large enough sample to get a good idea. How do you think marketing teams do thier jobs?
Marketing departments frequently look a metrics to establish possible areas for new product to be introduced, then they dig deeper and actually try to find out the "why's" of what they may/may not have seen with the metrics, including questioning customers, using focus groups, etc. Customers/potential customers are a fantastic source of information, if one knows the right questions, and pays attention to the responses, then the analysis of THAT data can be used for leadership to make its best possible decisions.
Never depend on metrics for decision making, unless you are the type that also considers writing actions on a dart board and throwing darts to use the first decision that a dart hits is a good idea.
And how many weeks do you think it'd take to get enough data? Especially given that you'd probably only have time to get info from 1% of the people you got metrics from.
It's not a matter of yes or no, but what and why. What do you think they could get that way that they can't get from collecting metrics and reading the forums?
I think the developers should open threads (for a limited time)
and ask the players what we want in.
cryptic does what cryptic wants.
we are just customers, none of us has a say on how cryptic chooses to build its content, only when some bugs or inbalances are found. and sometimes not even that.
i remember back to delta rising and someone from cryptic decided to speak on behalf of the players proclaiming that it was a success and the players loved it. not long after and lasted almost a year a stupid meme appeared which eventually the developers gotten angry about.
going back further there was LOR, before this there was a poll on what race should be the next faction and the romulans were chosen and made. i dont think i will ever see that happen again though.
and before that there was the design the Enterprise-F, since it was a white elephant, north america only. there were a lot of designs outside of north america that never had a chance. i will never ever acknowledge the oddy has a legitimate ship and i will never forgive cryptic over the way they handled that either. that means anything related directlyto the oddy design including its t6 upgrades i wont ever touch.
once along time ago perhaps, but not now it seems.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Oddly enough, all the player base can offer is our personal opinions on the game itself.
Data
We can not answer, why or what direction ect. because we are..truthfully, ignorant of
the particular rules, agreements, licences, budgets that the company in charge has to work under.
It happens alot, a popular developer leaves, everyone on the forums is screaming.
But why ? We don't know anything about why they are leaving...we don't work in
their office.
So, honestly, all we can give is our opinions on what we like and don't like...and
also we can point out bugs.
This is the last round I am going to go with you on this because I am getting the impression that you are pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing...
The forums, even though they are controlled by Cryptic, are not a good source for a control group, they dont offer a good enough cross section of the player base, just the more active, and more vocal part of the overall set. The information gleaned would only serve to satisfy a small subset of the player base, and not work to grow the base as much as using information from a random sample set, that would more than likely hit an a average of the player base, or using player activity metrics to pull a cross section from different player activity types, and other demographics.
They did a poll a while back. Exploration was the most popular thing IIRC. We're still waiting for it.
Problem is, I think, that 'the players' are so diverse in their wishes that it would be near impossible to fulfill everyone's wishes anyway. So there would still be unhappy players. Or you'd have to let us choose from some really broad options, like
'What's the most important: new queues, new species, new ships, new uniforms, more voice acting, better written episodes? etc.' And even that may still be too specific cause most of these options would have a lof of different sub options, like ships for what faction, what kind of 'better written episodes', what kind of new queues, ground, space, non-combat? etc.
So you may have to make it even more general and give just three options if you want to avoid complaints that they 'dind't do what we chose' : 1. character development (everything from species to uniforms or gender changes) 2. Content (everything queue, episode and open zone related) and 3. things that can be owned (what things to add to C-store etc.)
Problem is, of course, that such things don't help that much. If they ask us a very general question like the three things here, then it's still pretty vague and open to interpretation, if they ask very specific things and we say 'well we want this queue that deals with this enemy and we should be able to use these new ships in it' then they'd lose all freedom to add other amazing stuff and of course there would be many people who would not be interested. Basically, we'd end up with domination by the majority or whatever it is called in English with little opportunity to do anything else as people would complain that they did their own thing instead of listening to the preferred option that the players chose.
I don't think that, with a playerbase as diverse as we have now, after 6 years, it would be possible to live up to the wishes of everyone. A poll or question to the playerbase will likely end up with a lot of complaining.
Is anyone else having trouble with the smileys btw? Everytime I use the colon key, it opens a little list with suggestions for smileys and I can't press enter anymore without unwillingly adding them as this little selection screen will not disappear anymore... very annoying.
They did a poll a while back. Exploration was the most popular thing IIRC. We're still waiting for it.
Voted for PvP.
I'd say Devs here actually do listen, collect feedback (ex. tribble testing), and implement changes and even some fixes (Risa loading is fixed for me, same with flying high course around the lighthouse), and answer direct questions.
It is far from perfect given the amount of both long-standing and new problems, but considering I can think of one other game company that in my current gaming experience does Nothing (blizzard) to address tons of players unable to play for a paid product for weeks since release, Cryptic/PWE actually shines in comparison.
The forums, even though they are controlled by Cryptic, are not a good source for a control group, they dont offer a good enough cross section of the player base, just the more active, and more vocal part of the overall set. The information gleaned would only serve to satisfy a small subset of the player base, and not work to grow the base as much as using information from a random sample set, that would more than likely hit an a average of the player base, or using player activity metrics to pull a cross section from different player activity types, and other demographics.
The forums have the part of the playerbase that actually cares to form and express an opinion. In other words, the part that occasionally has something useful to say.
Polls are largely useless for anything more indepth than "what's your favorite Delta Quadrant race."
Is anyone else having trouble with the smileys btw? Everytime I use the colon key, it opens a little list with suggestions for smileys and I can't press enter anymore without unwillingly adding them as this little selection screen will not disappear anymore... very annoying.
The forums, even though they are controlled by Cryptic, are not a good source for a control group, they dont offer a good enough cross section of the player base, just the more active, and more vocal part of the overall set. The information gleaned would only serve to satisfy a small subset of the player base, and not work to grow the base as much as using information from a random sample set, that would more than likely hit an a average of the player base, or using player activity metrics to pull a cross section from different player activity types, and other demographics.
And how does that produce actionable information? IE how do you propose that Cryptic collects information directly from this random group of players?
They ran a large poll a year or so ago and they have pursued the top voted categories. The winner was Voyager related content I believe which we got. The issue is that some of the top categories were Exploration and PVP both of which will be monumental undertakings with minimal return. That being said they've been actively developing a new exploration system for some time.
So yes they do listen but perhaps not to you specifically.
If you wish to find out what it's like to be destroyed by a top-tier PVP build.... hunt down this guy who uses the name istvaanshogaatsu. He will happily show you what it feels like to die in .5 seconds.
I think the developers should open threads (for a limited time)
and ask the players what we want in.
cryptic does what cryptic wants.
we are just customers, none of us has a say on how cryptic chooses to build its content, only when some bugs or inbalances are found. and sometimes not even that.
i remember back to delta rising and someone from cryptic decided to speak on behalf of the players proclaiming that it was a success and the players loved it. not long after and lasted almost a year a stupid meme appeared which eventually the developers gotten angry about.
going back further there was LOR, before this there was a poll on what race should be the next faction and the romulans were chosen and made. i dont think i will ever see that happen again though.
and before that there was the design the Enterprise-F, since it was a white elephant, north america only. there were a lot of designs outside of north america that never had a chance. i will never ever acknowledge the oddy has a legitimate ship and i will never forgive cryptic over the way they handled that either. that means anything related directlyto the oddy design including its t6 upgrades i wont ever touch.
once along time ago perhaps, but not now it seems.
I beg to differ...
Snoggy and I asked for a lot more TOS stuff in the game in these very forums, and Cryptic came through with flying colors.
Granted it took several years, but still...
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Comments
Everytime I hear suggestions that "metrics" should be used to determine decision making on "what people want", my head starts hurting.
The problem with going with metrics is that metrics by themselves don't really give much information than surface data. Metrics barely scratch the surface, it shows activity, nothing else, it points to directions that ACTUAL data analysis can go, not a replacement for actual analysis.
Metrics do nothing to even hint at the who's, what's, how's, or why's of an activity, and what would be needed to make a new product more succesful. Human engagement tells much more to the professional analyst that one million columns of metrics could.
I am curious what you think an "actual analysis" should be though. Interviewing thousands of people?
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
by asking for specific input, it gives our answers structure.
What you get here is a random mess
> input structure " Would you prefer more space centric missions or more ground centric missions ?"
now our answers are more useful - as long as the question produces answers from us that can be
easily turned into data.
Do you like this or that ? easy to turn into data
describe your dream ship - very hard to turn into useable data
so..as an answer Why do you need to ask ? So we can give you something useful
and I still want the tail option turned back on for Alien builds.....I will be persistant on that...MEOW
Players could easily be doing one thing because of the lack of another thing to them, adding more of the one thing wont necessarily be as successful as finding out what the customer is wanting and offering that.
No, one doesnt need thousand(s) of people interviewed just a large enough sample to get a good idea. How do you think marketing teams do thier jobs?
Marketing departments frequently look a metrics to establish possible areas for new product to be introduced, then they dig deeper and actually try to find out the "why's" of what they may/may not have seen with the metrics, including questioning customers, using focus groups, etc. Customers/potential customers are a fantastic source of information, if one knows the right questions, and pays attention to the responses, then the analysis of THAT data can be used for leadership to make its best possible decisions.
Never depend on metrics for decision making, unless you are the type that also considers writing actions on a dart board and throwing darts to use the first decision that a dart hits is a good idea.
My character Tsin'xing
As much as any other firm does for thier analysis. You act as if that such things arent an ongoing process in the business world, why?
My character Tsin'xing
cryptic does what cryptic wants.
we are just customers, none of us has a say on how cryptic chooses to build its content, only when some bugs or inbalances are found. and sometimes not even that.
i remember back to delta rising and someone from cryptic decided to speak on behalf of the players proclaiming that it was a success and the players loved it. not long after and lasted almost a year a stupid meme appeared which eventually the developers gotten angry about.
going back further there was LOR, before this there was a poll on what race should be the next faction and the romulans were chosen and made. i dont think i will ever see that happen again though.
and before that there was the design the Enterprise-F, since it was a white elephant, north america only. there were a lot of designs outside of north america that never had a chance. i will never ever acknowledge the oddy has a legitimate ship and i will never forgive cryptic over the way they handled that either. that means anything related directlyto the oddy design including its t6 upgrades i wont ever touch.
once along time ago perhaps, but not now it seems.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Data
We can not answer, why or what direction ect. because we are..truthfully, ignorant of
the particular rules, agreements, licences, budgets that the company in charge has to work under.
It happens alot, a popular developer leaves, everyone on the forums is screaming.
But why ? We don't know anything about why they are leaving...we don't work in
their office.
So, honestly, all we can give is our opinions on what we like and don't like...and
also we can point out bugs.
This is the last round I am going to go with you on this because I am getting the impression that you are pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing...
The forums, even though they are controlled by Cryptic, are not a good source for a control group, they dont offer a good enough cross section of the player base, just the more active, and more vocal part of the overall set. The information gleaned would only serve to satisfy a small subset of the player base, and not work to grow the base as much as using information from a random sample set, that would more than likely hit an a average of the player base, or using player activity metrics to pull a cross section from different player activity types, and other demographics.
Problem is, I think, that 'the players' are so diverse in their wishes that it would be near impossible to fulfill everyone's wishes anyway. So there would still be unhappy players. Or you'd have to let us choose from some really broad options, like
'What's the most important: new queues, new species, new ships, new uniforms, more voice acting, better written episodes? etc.' And even that may still be too specific cause most of these options would have a lof of different sub options, like ships for what faction, what kind of 'better written episodes', what kind of new queues, ground, space, non-combat? etc.
So you may have to make it even more general and give just three options if you want to avoid complaints that they 'dind't do what we chose' : 1. character development (everything from species to uniforms or gender changes) 2. Content (everything queue, episode and open zone related) and 3. things that can be owned (what things to add to C-store etc.)
Problem is, of course, that such things don't help that much. If they ask us a very general question like the three things here, then it's still pretty vague and open to interpretation, if they ask very specific things and we say 'well we want this queue that deals with this enemy and we should be able to use these new ships in it' then they'd lose all freedom to add other amazing stuff and of course there would be many people who would not be interested. Basically, we'd end up with domination by the majority or whatever it is called in English with little opportunity to do anything else as people would complain that they did their own thing instead of listening to the preferred option that the players chose.
I don't think that, with a playerbase as diverse as we have now, after 6 years, it would be possible to live up to the wishes of everyone. A poll or question to the playerbase will likely end up with a lot of complaining.
Voted for PvP.
I'd say Devs here actually do listen, collect feedback (ex. tribble testing), and implement changes and even some fixes (Risa loading is fixed for me, same with flying high course around the lighthouse), and answer direct questions.
It is far from perfect given the amount of both long-standing and new problems, but considering I can think of one other game company that in my current gaming experience does Nothing (blizzard) to address tons of players unable to play for a paid product for weeks since release, Cryptic/PWE actually shines in comparison.
Polls are largely useless for anything more indepth than "what's your favorite Delta Quadrant race."
My character Tsin'xing
So yes they do listen but perhaps not to you specifically.
The PvP folks loved it...for a week....then, empty PvP areas.
What happened? I few folks were REALLY good at it, and killed everything that moved.
Everyone else got tired of being the 'Content' PvP died.
PvP folks even demanded they change the game for FORCE everyone to play PvP
Cryptic did not want to see the game tank so said no.
That is what happened with PvP
That is why even wow only have a FEW PvP servers.
My character Tsin'xing
Snoggy and I asked for a lot more TOS stuff in the game in these very forums, and Cryptic came through with flying colors.
Granted it took several years, but still...
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
My character Tsin'xing