Everyone who plays the game is a macro user. Pilot your ship with the keyboard? That's a macro that allows that. Pilot with your mouse? Again, it's a macro. The entire interface which allows you to function within the game environment is a macro which you can customize for your best performance.
There is nothing inherently wrong with macros. The problem is the misunderstanding some people have about what a macro is and what they can do. They are not a cheat, as in, they do not allow you to perform better than a guy who does not choose to use them. They are not a third party program running in the background maintaining your buff cycle for you as you do other things. They are simply customizable controls which a player can use to improve his gameplay management.
You can reduce the number of macros you use by pointing and clicking instead, but you cannot eliminate them: they are built into the game.
i thought we were specifically speaking of chaining a bunch of powers to the space bar and slamming away. Programmable keyboards and joysticks are another issue. However, so long as the global cooldown exists, they will never be able to trigger powers faster than the global allows. That is much faster than I can manually trigger powers, of course, but some of our twitch commandos out there can out-perform the program eight days a week.
There's been a lot of discussion lately about DPS and DPS related issues.
The dirty open secret of DPS in STO is that it is based on writing keyboard macros in the STO keybinds. It's not an exploit or anything, its just a thing people figured out how to do. People bind everything to space bar, maybe another key, and then press it over and over, and it automates everything: keeping your buffs up and optimal, auto targeting and firing at ships etc.
I think the game would benefit from shaking things up. If the devs disabled the ability to make these macros, a new layer of skill-based play would be added to the game. Instead of hitting space bar over and over, players would have to activate their buffs manually, which increases both immersion and engagement.
I really think it would be a shot in the arm for gameplay at the highest levels. It would upset complacency, it would give people something new to get good at, it would add dynamism to space combat.
Please lend your voices to this proposal, lets get heard!
I'd lend my vote to not adjusting the ability to keybind, as I remember what my performance was like before I learned "/bind_load_file X.txt". I get so much more out of the game when I can quickly and efficiently use the powers I intend to use when I intend to use them (UI lag notwithstanding), with only weapons fire on my spacebar. All my other abilities are bound in groups of no more than 2, so I only have to hit a key a few times, and I use about a dozen such groupings on a regular basis.
But, clarification is in order, OP...are you against macros specifically, or all keybinding? As I understand it (and anything I say is contingent on this understanding), macros are a recorded set of actions that play out without further input beyond an initial button-press, while binds require a key-press for each separate action and each time you want something to occur.
High DPS numbers are only a "problem" in the sense that Cryptic seemingly never intented for players to reach those outputs by either underestimating the players, players' dedication to chase numbers or by a severe lack of overview of their own game mechanics (and how they developed over the years). And now with the skill revamp, specs and traits they even put more and more bonus damage on top. This results in some players being able to literally sleepwalk through the game but it shouldn't affect the vast majority of the playerbase. I think asking for ways to artificially cripple the higher numbers isn't a good way. Instead the game had to be rebalanced fundamentally. Do we really need all those passives that increase damage or grant autoheal to non healer classes, why does Cryptic actively deconstruct variability in builds and grants basically everything to everyone "just because" and why is the only way to cope with it adding ridiculous HP sponges to missions? For example, I recently played "Fluid Dynamics" on a undergeared alt which uses mk X common items, no specs and traits (since under 50) and the boss of the mission, the Borg diamond, sports a ridiculous half a million HP when cubes before popped rather quickly. What's the point?
So suddenly people are feeling left behind either in DPS, exclusive items, or now macros so the only way to catch up is to force everyone else down? I'm really trying to follow the logic on this.
Personally the spacebar macro is not optimal by any means, if that's the focal point of this idea. I use macros and put things in groups so I can do EPtW and then BFAW or Kemocite and TS by pushing a single button. I want to fly my ship like Data does...hands on keyboard. I don't use my mouse. It's horribly inefficient.
@azrael605 when I'm lining up for an alphastrike in PvP I need to activate: APA, APO3, BO2, HY3, TT1, decloak, EPtS2, FOMM and CRF2. Then I have to cycle my counter ability chain: TT1, EPtE1, APD1, BO2, HY3 and CRF2 when it comes back online. Pre DR I used to do all this with the mouse very happily. I'd start the buff just outside weapons range at full throttle and by the time I decloaked I'd be just out of 5k with torps on their way. Since DR, trying to activate that chain at that kind of speed is extremely difficult, I have to wait for the power to register before activating the next whereas before I didn't have to wait (with the mouse).
Now I use a macro for the attack and counter string (with the exception of FoMM), and use the mouse for every other ability in my 3 full rows (only 1 row of abilities is tied to a macro in the the order to gain the most from the buffs) because even the macro sometimes needs repeated clicks even when something isn't on cooldown.
Healing and desperate measure abilities are all handled by mouse and it's tricky having to click 2-3 times on an ability from time to time even if it's the first time you've used it that battle. I don't use macros for anything else because healing, among other things, in PvP isn't something you can plan. But a standard attack buff will be the same far more often than not.
Can someone please explain what the difference is that we are talking about in this thread?
ie the difference between a macro and a keybind.
My understanding is a Macro is a program that you add a bunch of abilities to, then hit one key one time, and for the remainder of the match, or until map change. The macro keeps running those abilities without any further input from the user. The user could even get up and go out for dinner for a few hours or go to sleep, then come back later to find the game has been running and the macro has kept playing in his absence. In certain games with unlimited enemies he could return to find his inventory overflowing with loot because of it. (Seen that happen actually.)
My Understanding of a Keybind is you set one key to activate multiple abilities. then press the key multiple times to work your way through those abilities. You stop pressing the key and nothing further happens.
Seems to me that people in here are using the terms of Macro and Keybind interchangeably and I am extremely confused.
Believe it or not what you have described is a Macro - a set of predetermined actions that are initiated by a corresponding "Start" key. Basically would.look like this /activate "Hazard Emitters I" <Self> /wait 1 /activate "Distibute Shields" /wait 1 Etc. Etc. And it's essentially what a "Bot" is except the chain is a hell of a lot longer but that's the basic concept of a Macro it's a series of commands all put in lines and of you set the macro to reactivate it's trigger key it can loop forever.
For me the problem isn't that it's in the game or not, it's that fundamentally, any REAL Trek fan would be opposed to doing things in this manner.
Just like Kirk was opposed to the use of the M-5 super computer.
Sound familiar? Yes, instant activation is not how the real world works. 2 points, though...
1.) It's a game, computers (which we're not, but which we use to play the game) can react at these speeds, and not to take advantage of it cedes the advantage to others who do use it.
2.) If we're engaging in some degree of roleplay, we can use the "labor-saving devices" of the early and mid 20th century as an analogy. We're always looking to make life easier and quicker, to develop technologies to automate or make more efficient anything we can. Would starfleet, in the century plus since Kirk's day, and with the commandeering and retrofitting of so many alien ships, not look to install some sort of automation/modular design to make it easier for crews to use the ships?
...Its a distinct advantage when you no longer NEED to watch the tray as closely, and other factors I've mentioned, it frees up your field of view to watch the battle more closely, and enables the user to pay closer attention to the small details, that lead to higher DPS...
...Do we need to get rid of it ? I don't think so, but I wouldn't be opposed to it either, as I do feel everyone who is using them has a distinct advantage over users who don't, and I wouldn't mind seeing all users playing from equal footing.
Exception being, those with disabilities.
Bingo. It is an advantage, one that every player has access to. Saying that binds are an unfair advantage vs. people who don't use them is like saying rep gear or set bonuses are an unfair advantage for the people using them...except for the fact that anyone can earn the marks/level a rep/buy the same gear. Everyone in the game is already on an equal footing, and removing binds would only serve to put people on a lower, but still equal footing.
Upthread, you quoted your 75k as evidence that a lack of binds was superior/not a hindrance, and yet you complain that it's an advantage that people shouldn't have. Which is it? A side-grade/impediment/crutch that you can do better without? Or an advantage that's detrimental to game balance in the right hands?
For me the problem isn't that it's in the game or not, it's that fundamentally, any REAL Trek fan would be opposed to doing things in this manner.
Just like Kirk was opposed to the use of the M-5 super computer.
Sound familiar? Yes, instant activation is not how the real world works. 2 points, though...
1.) It's a game, computers (which we're not, but which we use to play the game) can react at these speeds, and not to take advantage of it cedes the advantage to others who do use it.
2.) If we're engaging in some degree of roleplay, we can use the "labor-saving devices" of the early and mid 20th century as an analogy. We're always looking to make life easier and quicker, to develop technologies to automate or make more efficient anything we can. Would starfleet, in the century plus since Kirk's day, and with the commandeering and retrofitting of so many alien ships, not look to install some sort of automation/modular design to make it easier for crews to use the ships?
It doesn't require technology or automation. It doesn't matter if its the 15th century or the 25th. The ship is crewed by people. People can be ordered to do things more than once, to do more than one thing in a row, to perform actions as planned in advance without waiting for mommy to hold their hands step-by-step, etc, etc, etc.
In fact the whole point of having a bridge crew is so the captain doesn't have to do everything himself. Because there is only so much one person can do at a time. The captain is supposed to focus on strategy and the big picture, and the crew is there to handle the repeated button pushing.
It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest STO's tray-button whack-a-mole has anything to do with how TV captains do it. It's physically impossible for a human to speak orders fast enough to keep up with that kind of ability spam. For those who seriously believe otherwise, try saying your abilities out loud, see how many you manage to say in the 15-30 seconds before you'll need to start repeating yourself to keep them up. And does that sound like something Kirk does?
On TV, orders are given once, with the expectation that the crew will still remember them 30 seconds later.
Personally, I do not bother with keybinds. I simply press the corresponding key or click the icon for the ability I want to activate. It would be nice if the lag was fixed because sometime when I press the key / click the icon the ability does not activate.
I believe players should be giving a choice whether or not they want to use keybinds. It's not an exploit.
...Its a distinct advantage when you no longer NEED to watch the tray as closely, and other factors I've mentioned, it frees up your field of view to watch the battle more closely, and enables the user to pay closer attention to the small details, that lead to higher DPS...
...Do we need to get rid of it ? I don't think so, but I wouldn't be opposed to it either, as I do feel everyone who is using them has a distinct advantage over users who don't, and I wouldn't mind seeing all users playing from equal footing.
Exception being, those with disabilities.
Bingo. It is an advantage, one that every player has access to. Saying that binds are an unfair advantage vs. people who don't use them is like saying rep gear or set bonuses are an unfair advantage for the people using them...except for the fact that anyone can earn the marks/level a rep/buy the same gear. Everyone in the game is already on an equal footing, and removing binds would only serve to put people on a lower, but still equal footing.
Upthread, you quoted your 75k as evidence that a lack of binds was superior/not a hindrance, and yet you complain that it's an advantage that people shouldn't have. Which is it? A side-grade/impediment/crutch that you can do better without? Or an advantage that's detrimental to game balance in the right hands?
Actually Tobias, I was trying to convey that I'd probably score "better" with a set of proper macros. As I could view the battle with a lot more attention to detail. For me, I'm looking at the tray a good 75% of the time, just so I don't miss pattern or buff up times. But even still, I often do miss out.
Meanwhile macro users can press one of several buttons over and over, and never miss out on perfect up time, while observing a lot more of the battle with a lot less effort.
But yes, you're right in saying that everyone has access to them. BUT, how many new players actually realize they can do this ? I would wager its not a huge percentage... maybe some who come from other MMO's know of them, and specifically look for them here.
But that wasn't my case as this is the only mmo I've played. Pretty sure I'm not alone in this, as a lot of people are only here because its a Trek game and wouldn't bother with any of the more conventional mmo's.
Maybe I should've said; people not using them are "purposefully" putting themselves at a disadvantage, which is less inflammatory, then saying macros are a crutch/mild cheating in hindsight.
Though I do wonder just how well people would do if they had to play without.
For myself, I consider it a lot of effort/coordination to cycle my skills/abilities efficiently.. Maybe I'm just so used to doing this and the practice its taken that when someone says they use macro's it kind of drives me crazy.
But again, I admit, I'm the one who refuses to set up a bind file.
Also it's not as if the game holds your hand and guides you through a keybind file setup. In fact, I don't even think its mentioned at all in the game or even in the tutorial.. Only place I've seen Keybinds/macros mentioned in game is in the options, there is a Keybinds tab.
So I'm sure many people don't even know they exist. Which I don't think is equitable, for all parties involved.
Should they be removed ? No I don't think it's necessary.
And if you read my last comment, you'll see I relented a bit on my stance after reading some logical commentary here.
Comments
There is nothing inherently wrong with macros. The problem is the misunderstanding some people have about what a macro is and what they can do. They are not a cheat, as in, they do not allow you to perform better than a guy who does not choose to use them. They are not a third party program running in the background maintaining your buff cycle for you as you do other things. They are simply customizable controls which a player can use to improve his gameplay management.
You can reduce the number of macros you use by pointing and clicking instead, but you cannot eliminate them: they are built into the game.
I'd lend my vote to not adjusting the ability to keybind, as I remember what my performance was like before I learned "/bind_load_file X.txt". I get so much more out of the game when I can quickly and efficiently use the powers I intend to use when I intend to use them (UI lag notwithstanding), with only weapons fire on my spacebar. All my other abilities are bound in groups of no more than 2, so I only have to hit a key a few times, and I use about a dozen such groupings on a regular basis.
But, clarification is in order, OP...are you against macros specifically, or all keybinding? As I understand it (and anything I say is contingent on this understanding), macros are a recorded set of actions that play out without further input beyond an initial button-press, while binds require a key-press for each separate action and each time you want something to occur.
QFT
Personally the spacebar macro is not optimal by any means, if that's the focal point of this idea. I use macros and put things in groups so I can do EPtW and then BFAW or Kemocite and TS by pushing a single button. I want to fly my ship like Data does...hands on keyboard. I don't use my mouse. It's horribly inefficient.
Now I use a macro for the attack and counter string (with the exception of FoMM), and use the mouse for every other ability in my 3 full rows (only 1 row of abilities is tied to a macro in the the order to gain the most from the buffs) because even the macro sometimes needs repeated clicks even when something isn't on cooldown.
Healing and desperate measure abilities are all handled by mouse and it's tricky having to click 2-3 times on an ability from time to time even if it's the first time you've used it that battle.
I don't use macros for anything else because healing, among other things, in PvP isn't something you can plan. But a standard attack buff will be the same far more often than not.
ie the difference between a macro and a keybind.
My understanding is a Macro is a program that you add a bunch of abilities to, then hit one key one time, and for the remainder of the match, or until map change. The macro keeps running those abilities without any further input from the user. The user could even get up and go out for dinner for a few hours or go to sleep, then come back later to find the game has been running and the macro has kept playing in his absence. In certain games with unlimited enemies he could return to find his inventory overflowing with loot because of it. (Seen that happen actually.)
My Understanding of a Keybind is you set one key to activate multiple abilities. then press the key multiple times to work your way through those abilities. You stop pressing the key and nothing further happens.
Seems to me that people in here are using the terms of Macro and Keybind interchangeably and I am extremely confused.
Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
/activate "Hazard Emitters I" <Self>
/wait 1
/activate "Distibute Shields"
/wait 1
Etc. Etc.
And it's essentially what a "Bot" is except the chain is a hell of a lot longer but that's the basic concept of a Macro it's a series of commands all put in lines and of you set the macro to reactivate it's trigger key it can loop forever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Sound familiar? Yes, instant activation is not how the real world works. 2 points, though...
1.) It's a game, computers (which we're not, but which we use to play the game) can react at these speeds, and not to take advantage of it cedes the advantage to others who do use it.
2.) If we're engaging in some degree of roleplay, we can use the "labor-saving devices" of the early and mid 20th century as an analogy. We're always looking to make life easier and quicker, to develop technologies to automate or make more efficient anything we can. Would starfleet, in the century plus since Kirk's day, and with the commandeering and retrofitting of so many alien ships, not look to install some sort of automation/modular design to make it easier for crews to use the ships?
Bingo. It is an advantage, one that every player has access to. Saying that binds are an unfair advantage vs. people who don't use them is like saying rep gear or set bonuses are an unfair advantage for the people using them...except for the fact that anyone can earn the marks/level a rep/buy the same gear. Everyone in the game is already on an equal footing, and removing binds would only serve to put people on a lower, but still equal footing.
Upthread, you quoted your 75k as evidence that a lack of binds was superior/not a hindrance, and yet you complain that it's an advantage that people shouldn't have. Which is it? A side-grade/impediment/crutch that you can do better without? Or an advantage that's detrimental to game balance in the right hands?
It doesn't require technology or automation. It doesn't matter if its the 15th century or the 25th. The ship is crewed by people. People can be ordered to do things more than once, to do more than one thing in a row, to perform actions as planned in advance without waiting for mommy to hold their hands step-by-step, etc, etc, etc.
In fact the whole point of having a bridge crew is so the captain doesn't have to do everything himself. Because there is only so much one person can do at a time. The captain is supposed to focus on strategy and the big picture, and the crew is there to handle the repeated button pushing.
It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest STO's tray-button whack-a-mole has anything to do with how TV captains do it. It's physically impossible for a human to speak orders fast enough to keep up with that kind of ability spam. For those who seriously believe otherwise, try saying your abilities out loud, see how many you manage to say in the 15-30 seconds before you'll need to start repeating yourself to keep them up. And does that sound like something Kirk does?
On TV, orders are given once, with the expectation that the crew will still remember them 30 seconds later.
I believe players should be giving a choice whether or not they want to use keybinds. It's not an exploit.
Actually Tobias, I was trying to convey that I'd probably score "better" with a set of proper macros. As I could view the battle with a lot more attention to detail. For me, I'm looking at the tray a good 75% of the time, just so I don't miss pattern or buff up times. But even still, I often do miss out.
Meanwhile macro users can press one of several buttons over and over, and never miss out on perfect up time, while observing a lot more of the battle with a lot less effort.
But yes, you're right in saying that everyone has access to them. BUT, how many new players actually realize they can do this ? I would wager its not a huge percentage... maybe some who come from other MMO's know of them, and specifically look for them here.
But that wasn't my case as this is the only mmo I've played. Pretty sure I'm not alone in this, as a lot of people are only here because its a Trek game and wouldn't bother with any of the more conventional mmo's.
Maybe I should've said; people not using them are "purposefully" putting themselves at a disadvantage, which is less inflammatory, then saying macros are a crutch/mild cheating in hindsight.
Though I do wonder just how well people would do if they had to play without.
For myself, I consider it a lot of effort/coordination to cycle my skills/abilities efficiently.. Maybe I'm just so used to doing this and the practice its taken that when someone says they use macro's it kind of drives me crazy.
But again, I admit, I'm the one who refuses to set up a bind file.
Also it's not as if the game holds your hand and guides you through a keybind file setup. In fact, I don't even think its mentioned at all in the game or even in the tutorial.. Only place I've seen Keybinds/macros mentioned in game is in the options, there is a Keybinds tab.
So I'm sure many people don't even know they exist. Which I don't think is equitable, for all parties involved.
Should they be removed ? No I don't think it's necessary.
And if you read my last comment, you'll see I relented a bit on my stance after reading some logical commentary here.