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[Rapid] Turrets vs [Over] Arrays for Plasmonic Leeching on a Polaron Drain Cruiser
autumnturning
Member Posts: 743 Arc User
Basic outline is wondering if there's a comparative advantage to using [Rapid] Turrets rather than [Over] Beams on a Drain Cruiser built for Polarons that has a Plasmonic Leech on it. In this, I'm more interested in Power Drain than I am in sheer DPS throughput.
The basic layout I'm thinking of is 3 energy fore and 3 energy aft, with the remaining weapons being Torps/Mines. Ironically, I'm wonder if this might be one of the rare times that Cannon Barrage might wind up being some of some use, since with 6x Polaron Turret [Rapid] in play, I'd imagine that the Trait should proc relatively often and result in a "sprightlier" piloting performance for an otherwise "ponderous" Cruiser, even if use of Turrets would substantially mitigate the entire firing arc issue. Additionally, since Turrets cycle more quickly than Arrays, that ought to (theoretically) result in a greater sustained power drain from energy weapons even before factoring in any kind of firing cycle haste effects from proccing [Rapid]. In other words, I'm wondering if this might be a rather unusual edge case in which use of Turrets would be justifiable for the goal of maximizing power drain (to drop shields, etc. etc.).
The converse is, of course, going 6x Polaron Beam Arrays [Over] and instead leveraging the Beam Barrage Trait and the Beam Overload DOff(s). It would seem that such a course would result in more DPS and less power draining, due to slower weapon cycles.
So setting aside the DPS considerations, what are the relative merits of either approach when comparing Turrets vs Arrays in this context?
The basic layout I'm thinking of is 3 energy fore and 3 energy aft, with the remaining weapons being Torps/Mines. Ironically, I'm wonder if this might be one of the rare times that Cannon Barrage might wind up being some of some use, since with 6x Polaron Turret [Rapid] in play, I'd imagine that the Trait should proc relatively often and result in a "sprightlier" piloting performance for an otherwise "ponderous" Cruiser, even if use of Turrets would substantially mitigate the entire firing arc issue. Additionally, since Turrets cycle more quickly than Arrays, that ought to (theoretically) result in a greater sustained power drain from energy weapons even before factoring in any kind of firing cycle haste effects from proccing [Rapid]. In other words, I'm wondering if this might be a rather unusual edge case in which use of Turrets would be justifiable for the goal of maximizing power drain (to drop shields, etc. etc.).
The converse is, of course, going 6x Polaron Beam Arrays [Over] and instead leveraging the Beam Barrage Trait and the Beam Overload DOff(s). It would seem that such a course would result in more DPS and less power draining, due to slower weapon cycles.
So setting aside the DPS considerations, what are the relative merits of either approach when comparing Turrets vs Arrays in this context?
THE Balanced Budget Build
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
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My observation is that experienced players flying drain builds tend to go with beams.
You deal with firing arc by using broadsides for pretty wide angles of fire, enabled with turn rate boosting things like rcs consoles, rep power, engine choice, aux2damp etc.
And you're right about getting 20 weapon cycles per minute with Turrets (2 seconds shooting, 1 second recovering = 3 second cycle), as opposed to 12 weapon cycles per minute with Arrays (4 seconds shooting, 1 second recovering = 5 second cycle), so right there, simple weapon type choice offers +66% more opportunities to proc Polaron power debuffing over time using Turrets rather than Arrays. With sufficient Drain Expertise and 2x Energy Siphon running, you can start seeing All Energy Gone situations coming up in PvE relatively frequently (and certainly a lot more often/reliably than Phaser Disable procs).
The [Rapid] modifier applies Cannon: Rapid Fire I to all cannons (in this case, Turrets) for 2 seconds, which amounts to a single firing cycle. This rank of modifier increases the shots fired by +30%, resulting in 5 "plinks" in a firing cycle instead of just 4 "plinks" as normal. That's a +25% damage increase on proc, for a single firing cycle, but since it applies to all of the mounted Cannons simultaneously, there's a synergistic effect in which you get more out of the [Rapid] mod the more Turrets (in this case) you'd have.
However, compared to the yield of a single Beam: Overload I, there's really no comparison when it comes to damage throughput. Even accounting for the fact that on balance you'd be proccing [Rapid] 5x for every 3x procs of [Over] there still isn't enough useful advantage to going Turrets as opposed to Arrays so long as you're assuming broadsiding engagements. However, when bringing the Fore and Aft Torpedoes/Mines to bear, that calculus changes (slightly), but even then the change is just too intermittent to allow Turrets to catch up "enough" to assert a qualitatively distinct advantage in other areas.
Guess the only thing to do in this case is a "fly off" comparison in which I have 2 Captains essentially flying the same build just with [Rapid] vs [Over] and see for myself if there's any meaningful difference in "feel" in actual gameplay.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
Well, I have a tac/drain build that uses polarized disruptor cannons and turrets. Gets good DPS and drain.
Ideally, this would be something where the two options yield comparable results but do so in dissimilar ways. I'm just wondering if the "death by 1000 cuts" of Turrets would manage to work as well as the "hammer smashing" of Arrays if going for the [Rapid] or [Over] mods FOR FUN.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
Isnt there a limit for the [rapid] proc and how often it goes off?
Does the exchange have enough polaron turrets with the rapid mod? Does acc overflow work with volley?
Not that I've heard of. I haven't seen anything saying there's a cooldown lockout for the proc opportunities. The only thing I'm aware of is the aforementioned interference with other Cannon abilities (of which I plan to making use of NONE), so it's not like I'll be fighting some sort of conflict there.
I keep all of my energy weapons on Autofire, so that's not a concern for me, since this will be for a Cruiser. Since [Rapid] affects ALL Cannons for 2 seconds, my assumption is that it should result in all of the Turrets simultaneous "burst firing" together onto target (in theory). Since I'm not going to be slotting Cannon Rapid Fire or Cannon Scatter Volley at all, the conflict with them would be moot.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
And the verdict is ... Turrets by a landslide ... !!! o.O;
Personally, I was rather shocked at the difference in performance.
Now, admittedly, this was just a single run against the Na'kul Red Alert using the two different loadouts on Fleet Support Cruiser Refits on a pair of Starfleet Engineers who are both using my Balanced Budget Build which lets them fly practically anything. Just about the only thing I did differently in the two builds was to put Turrets [Rapid] on one and Arrays [Over] on the other. I tried to keep everything else as identical as possible to get a near peer test.
For Tactical Skills, I had:
Tactical Team I
Torpedo Spread I
Torpedo High Yield II
For Science Skills, I had:
Science Team I
Tyken's Rift I
Gravity Well I
Transfer Shield Strength I
Energy Siphon I
For Engineering Skills, I had:
Emergency Power to Shields I
Emergency Power to Auxiliary II
Engineering Team III
Auxiliary to Structural Integrity III
For both Captains I had Command/Commando selected as the Specializations.
Deflector: MACO
Impulse Engine: MACO
Warp Core: Solanae Overcharged
Shield: Quantum Phase Resilient
Fore Weapons: Neutronic Torpedo, Polaron Turret [Rapid], Polaron Turret [Rapid], Polaron Turret [Rapid]
Fore Weapons: Quantum Phase Torpedo, Polaron Turret [Rapid], Polaron Turret [Rapid], Polaron Turret [Rapid]
- or -
Fore Weapons: Neutronic Torpedo, Polaron Beam Array [Over], Polaron Beam Array [Over], Polaron Beam Array [Over]
Fore Weapons: Quantum Phase Torpedo, Polaron Beam Array [Over], Polaron Beam Array [Over], Polaron Beam Array [Over]
Engineering Consoles: Bio Neural Gel Pack, Plasmonic Leech, Quantum Phase Converter, Zero Point Module
Science Consoles: Flow Capacitor, Flow Capacitor, Flow Capacitor, Flow Capacitor
Tactical Consoles: Chronometric Capacitor, Vulnerability Locator [Polaron], Vulnerability Locator [Polaron]
I was running Balanced Power on both runs (I know, heresy), which baselines at:
Weapons: 77/50
Shields: 75/50
Engines: 75/50
Auxiliary: 86/50
Leech is worth -3.4/+3.4 Power for 15 seconds.
Polarons proc for about -57 Power for 5 seconds.
Neutronic Torpedo drains -34.2 Power for 6 seconds.
2-piece MACO set: +5% recharge speed, +Drain Expertise
2-piece Delta Operations: +Radiation Damage, +Cooldown to Neutronic Torpedo
2-piece Quantum Phase: +15% Accuracy, +Torpedo Shield Drain, +Shield Heal Return
Basically, a "quick kitbash" to try and zero in on what the weapon interactions were like and how they'd affect Player Piloting and so on. By no means an optimized build designed to squeeze every last drop of performance out of everything, but rather a quick 'n' dirty look at the differences in playstyles the two weapon choices brought to bear.
I did the Turret build first.
Let's just say I haven't put turrets on any of my builds since the first 6 months of STO, back when I was flying Tier 2 Cruisers. I should have been ready for the "machine gunning" fire of the Turrets, but I really wasn't ... and with six of them firing nigh constantly, it was just this steady stream of purple bolts of hatred flying out of my ship regardless of which way I was flying. This let me focus my attention on "where I was going" and set up my Torpedo shots, either fore or aft, depending on what I needed right then. It made avoiding the Red Cones Of YOU DIE NOW pretty darn simple to do, since I didn't have to worry about keeping a broadside towards the enemy.
But the REAL kick in the pants was the interaction between the Polaron Turrets and the Neutronic Torpedo ... because I was unloading all of those Turrets combined while lining up shots for the Neutronic, and all it took was ONE Turret proccing a Power Drain and it was pretty much Lights Out for that NPC for the next few seconds. Shields dropped. Engines stopped. They were just dead in the (very much lacking in space) water. I didn't even need to combine with the Energy Siphon like I usually do to get that performance. I could simply "rely" on the 6x 2.5% chance being rolled every 3 seconds to inflict some Most Unfortunate Synergy on the $Target and they'd become sitting ducks while the Turrets ripped them apart. It was positively uncanny. I didn't even have to resort to use of my Tyken's Rift most of the time to drop shields. It was just Neutronic plus Polaron proc and then it was Good Night Nurse for the Na'kul. I was burning ships down to nothing in almost record time, such that it was kind of funny watching their hull disappear in -1% chunks THAT rapidly.
It was kind of hard to tell if the [Rapid] modifier was kicking in, since the tempo of the shots didn't change all that much, but if you were paying attention and looking for it you could almost kind of see (and hear) it. Most of the time, it was just a steady stream of purple dots with trails flying towards the Na'kul as if my ship was armed with a firehose of a peashooter.
Oh, and in case anyone is wondering ... having 6 Turrets constantly shooting at your $Target is a pretty good way to proc those Torpedo Exploits you get from Command Specialization ... even if you aren't flying a Command Seating Ship.
Then I did the Beam Array build, thinking it would be "just as good" as the Turret run.
To my surprise, it was not.
Now, to be fair, there's almost certainly a number of things I could do to "support" the Beam Arrays better than I did (such as more Weapon Power for starters). So I quickly fired up the Weapon Aura (had been using Engine Aura like on the previous run) on the Cruiser and kept going, but pretty much every engagement was a lot more of a struggle than I'd had with the Turrets. For one thing, I couldn't get the Polaron Beam Arrays to proc in "sync" with the Neutronic Torpedo like I had been previously. This is mainly because of the firing arcs on the rear Arrays, which limited me to only 3 supporting Arrays when lining up a Neutronic shot. There was also the fact that the proc lasts for 5 seconds and the salvo times were 5 seconds, so it was hard to get any overlaps going there. Also, after the run with the Turrets and the quick re-target on $Target switch, the Arrays felt positively cumbersome with their slower 5 second salvo times.
So I couldn't get the synergy of the Polaron procs going with the Neutronic Power Drain, and because of that I was spending a heck of a lot more time banging on shields than I was on hull. So even though the Beams should have been doing more damage, they were dishing out that damage less "efficiently" and my kill speed suffered in comparison to the previous run. Furthermore, the [Over] procs weren't coming out anywhere NEAR as often as the [Rapid] procs had seemed to for the Turrets, again, due to the slower salvo cycling of the Beams.
=====
Long story short, this looks like an unusual case where the Conventional Wisdom (of Yore?) no longer seems to tell the whole story here. I was expecting the two builds to behave in a relatively consensual manner, with only a few minor differences in detail on the margins. Instead, I got something where the actual gameplay experience was dramatically different to a degree which makes certain kinds of spreadsheet analysis of numbers in a vacuum a lot less relevant than usual. o.O;
In other words, I think I might have found an Edge Case that could bring back a portion of the Drain Boat Builds for Cruisers (of all things) if people are so inclined. Even better, there's plenty of "options" for how to do what I was doing, such that you're by no means locked into the build plan outlined above. Heck, by most people's standards, what I was doing ought to be relatively "pathetic" with lots of room for improvements!
And now for my next trick, I'll be stocking up on Energy Weapon Officers that offer some rather ... interesting ... procs of their own to add into the mix ... since it looks like Subnucleonic Beam can disable the Na'Kul Immunity cheese ... and, oh hey looky, there's an Energy Weapon DOff with a proc chance to do the same thing! Hmmm ... 3x 1% chance to remove 3 buffs on $Target ... x6 every 3 seconds ... equals ... a whole lot of dice chucking. Hunh.
/em paging TeacherKirby
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
Looks like the [Rapid] mod does not proc Deft Cannoneer. Conversely, proccing Deft Cannoneer via Bridge Officer skills can result in chain stacking, so long as you've got enough Cooldown Reduction to get the cooldown to under 30 seconds and you activate a Cannon skill immediately upon cooldown. I was just doing circles outside of Earth Space Dock and a single Cannon skill with a cooldown of less than 30 seconds would let me build 3 stacks of Deft Cannoneer and in effect "keep them all" (max 3) indefinitely ... using only a single Bridge Officer Skill.
I'd imagine that the [Over] mod behaves the same with Beam Barrage. Makes sense, since it means you don't get to invoke these particular Traits "for free" just by crafting mods onto your weapons.
The other thing I found, which I presume everyone who is not me knows already ... is that Plasmonic Leech procs aren't overwritten when a weapon fires another volley.
This means that in 15 seconds, Beams can generate up to 3 stacks of Plasmonic Leech per Beam ... but Cannons can generate up to 5 stacks of Plasmonic Leech per Beam. On my build, where Plasmonic Leech is worth 3.6 All Power per volley, that's the difference between draining -10.8 per weapon (-64.8 max) with 6 Beam Arrays ... or -18 per weapon (-90 max) with 6 Turrets ... within the 15 second duration of Plasmonic Leech. Never mind the Polaron drain procs on top of that, I'm just talking about Plasmonic Leech. Since I'm building for Drain specifically, that's a pretty big chunk of change in Power before adding everything else on top.
Also, closer inspection of the current state of Rapid Fire shows that all it does for firing speed is that it changes the duration of the volley from 0.5 sec per shot over 2 seconds down to 0.3 sec per shot over 1.2 seconds. Cooldown for Turrets is 0.95 seconds either normally or with Rapid Fire. This means that a single volley from a Turret lasts either 2.95 seconds or 2.15 seconds (when Rapid Firing), and the Bridge Officer Rapid Fire skill lasts for 10 seconds, not just 2. In 10 seconds, you can fire off 4.65 complete volleys of fire (call it 4) instead of 3 thanks to the faster rate of fire. The key here is that every proc of Rapid Fire, whether it be from the Bridge Officer Skill or from the [Rapid] mod on the Turrets increases both the effects of Plasmonic Leech, by increasing the number of volleys fired in any given time span (meaning more stacking of the Leech transfer of Power) AND by increasing the rate at which the [Rapid] mod can proc over time (assuming you've bothered with it).
Bare minimum, I'm thinking that this particular performance difference helps neatly explain why I was seeing much more consistent Shield shutdowns when using Polaron Turrets than I was when using Polaron Beams. The shorter firing cycle ensured that "deeper stacks" of Plasmonic Leech occurred over time, supercharging my ship's performance in all Subsystems, and also making my $Target(s) that much more vulnerable to a Polaron proc that could wipe out all Power for 5 seconds. Combine that with "chucking more dice" at the proc chances for Polarons and things start tipping towards the Turrets rather dramatically ... which is consistent with the performance I was experiencing against the Na'Kul. The Turrets just transferred more Power, more consistently from my $Target to me, making them much weaker defensively than they were when using Beams. So even if the Beams did more damage "on paper" ... in actual gameplay the Turrets brought more to the fight than JUST damage, they also brought vulnerabilities that the Beams couldn't deliver (or exploit) as easily or as well.
And just because I wanted to see if it would work ... I mentioned last time that there's an Energy Weapon Officer who offers a 1% chance per volley of fire from energy weapons to strip 3 buffs from a Foe. Well, I loaded up 3 of these and took them for a test drive against a Patrol Mission in the Delta Quadrant that featured the Borg Cooperative as a Foe. Well, sure enough, the Borg pulled out their shield drain cheese attack and my shields started going away very quickly (as usual) ... but then something funny happened. One of my Turrets procced the EWO that strips buffs from a $Target, and ... the Tachyon Drain Of Doom(tm) halted mere seconds after it had begun. In other words, I got to keep most of my shields, even after the Borg had started to go after them.
In other words ... the anti-buff EWO's *work* ... and they work REALLY well with Turrets due to the rapid cycling, meaning lots of dice chucking to get the EWO's to proc.
Note that the Na'Kul Distortions are exactly this kind of a buff to self, meaning that I've now got an anti-Distortions capability built right into my [Rapid] Polaron Turrets. So not only does the build steal lots of Power, it also has a "random Subnuke-lite" capability available to it as well, if using the right Duty Officers, that can negate Distortions without needing to switch targets to take down the Distorions first.
Beware the Rapid Firing peashooter that drains its enemies using a collection of Turrets and a Plasmonic Leech console!
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground