Please add "Romulan" Undershirt option to Fed Open Tops. Also.. Factions? Color/Costume Limitation?

rahhmi

What? This isn't a [Message Brought To You By Starfleet Dental] thread? That's weird. Anyway...

This is a request thread. As the foundry is a wonderful place, I have found one little accidental Gem.

Currently, the Romulan faction has an undershirt titled "Undershirt 02". I would like to request that it be added as an option to Open-top/Mirror Federation outfits.

From what I can tell there are three variants, So I'm only speaking of the one that covers the cleavage area, as the other two seem to cause clipping issues in non-relevant portions of the uniform.



As you can see, it's an excellent compliment to the various available federation tops, provides us with a slightly more Demure-yet-feminine option, and would only require Cryptic modding text-based outfit permissions as the combinations and would also provide me with more satisfaction regarding my character and my purchases.

---

Further thoughts... which i believe are the root of this problem.

Cryptic does a lot of things differently from other MMO's or similar game setups. This is amazing, innovative, and a model that has stopped me from playing other games simply because I feel like I'm losing a core functionality of "Freedom of Expression". Unfortunately, Cryptic then shoots itself in the foot by nerfing it's positive points.

It innovates by offering us things like...
1. The Shard System.. all players in the same world, in instances.
2. Personalized Character Outfit Customization, independent of statistics.

But then Nerfs it's own strengths by...
1. Creating a secondary Faction,

• This needlessly separates the userbase, limiting the ability for friends to play together and/or interact with new friends
• >> We team together in public/private queues at endgame to do STF's and other queued missions, thus further negating story content.
• Although when STO Originally came out and Feds were "at war" with Klingons this seemed to serve a purpose, it is no longer relevant.
• It forces the art and story team to create separate mediocre rushed content for two groups instead of focusing on a single GREAT Game.
• >> This means that separate factions deny Cryptic potential income, deny players happiness, and create additional time-consuming work.
• >> This also further limits access to available content.
• The negative arguments include Immersion... Which isn't relevant anymore, and Aversion to change.
• >> The Positive arguments to a faction merging is More potential income from Cryptic at less overall work, and a more cohesive userbase free of "we lack KDF content".
• I believe that Factions should be removed completely in their current form, and that relevant outfits, weapons, ships, ranks, and other faction-relevant features should be re-added as unlocks through the reputation system.
• >> This would further allow easy additional expansion of currently non-existent factions such as Ferengi, Jem Hadar, Cardassian, or Breen Factions.

2. Restricting Outfit customization to factions (KDF, Fed, Romulan) or Categories (offDuty, Maco, Terran, Omegaforce)
Offering what no other MMO offers, Restricting our outfits creates only negative impact on the user base such as

• We feel our creativity is being restricted, this bothers us more than normal as we've been given so much breathing room.
• We may not strive to get a certain outfit because it may have limited usage.
• An outfit might "clip" a little bit. Those with a problem will simply not use the combination, those who don't mind will be happier.
• As this does not impact Gameplay, it's presence simply creates needless frustration
• It's been well noted and established that these parts more often than not work together just fine.
• The ONLY Argument is "Immersion", which is constantly disrupted by NPCs making use for a restriction free outfit, Romulans on Earth Spacedock, people who have Lobi Outfits, OR other typical game endeavors. Honestly, A person in a federation outfit with MACO Boots isn't going to make a difference to most, IF They even notice.

2a. Finally, We come down to pallettes.



A while back, I shared this on twitter. AND HERE IS A LARGE VERSION.

As I understand more than the average person about game design and it's mechanics, the use of STO's various color palettes, save for perhaps 5 or so "canon" recommended options seems completely pointless.

Often times I will not combine currently-compatible outfit choices simply because the shinyness of one is higher than the other, or because the color itself is impossible to match to the original in any fashion, Or worse.. the shiny factor of one color looks right in the tailor but creates a totally different visual once i leave. Or even more irritating, We're limited to only a few select choices for absolutely no reason.

This creates needless frustration among anyone who's into customization.

After much thinking, the only fix I can find for this is to replace color pallettes with R/G/B sliders, and additionally to consider adding a "Shiny" "reflective", and possibly "glow" slider in addition, as cryptic already has access to these, They're already in the game (though hidden), and it would only solve problems.

Potential arguments are that this might result in glowy, shiny characters... but some can use Clubwear outside of Earth Spacedock, and Tholian Robes continue to exist.

jexsamx

The primary flaw in this argument is it places higher value on customization over any other aspect on the game, which is a biased position that misses much of the point of the game, and arguably much of the point of a role-playing game specifically.

I'll preface this by saying I do stand in favor of more relaxed restrictions for character customization. The convoluted subcategories, as you so rightly pointed out, are nothing but a restrictive nuisance, and in cases such as the KDF, there aren't many logical reasons to withhold some species' outfits from another - for instance, why couldn't a Gorn wear Nausicaan armor, etc.

However, you have to remember one key fact - for the game's setting, and indeed any roleplaying setting, to retain its own flavor and integrity, there must be rules that everyone must abide by. If costumes were truly fully accessible to everyone with no restriction whatsoever, you wind up with things that... y'know nevermind, I can already see where this can be countered and I know there's no way I can argue my way out of that corner, so I'll just say that lockbox outfits are provided with a lore explanation that works so those are okay even if they are usually intensely stupid.

I'm all for relaxed restrictions but opening the floodgates is a stupid idea and Cryptic already allowing it to some extent doesn't make it less stupid, it just gives people a foothold to make that stupid argument.

rosetyler51

jexsamx wrote: »

The primary flaw in this argument is it places higher value on customization over any other aspect on the game, which is a biased position that misses much of the point of the game, and arguably much of the point of a role-playing game specifically.

I'll preface this by saying I do stand in favor of more relaxed restrictions for character customization. The convoluted subcategories, as you so rightly pointed out, are nothing but a restrictive nuisance, and in cases such as the KDF, there aren't many logical reasons to withhold some species' outfits from another - for instance, why couldn't a Gorn wear Nausicaan armor, etc.

However, you have to remember one key fact - for the game's setting, and indeed any roleplaying setting, to retain its own flavor and integrity, there must be rules that everyone must abide by. If costumes were truly fully accessible to everyone with no restriction whatsoever, you wind up with things that... y'know nevermind, I can already see where this can be countered and I know there's no way I can argue my way out of that corner, so I'll just say that lockbox outfits are provided with a lore explanation that works so those are okay even if they are usually intensely stupid.

I'm all for relaxed restrictions but opening the floodgates is a stupid idea and Cryptic already allowing it to some extent doesn't make it less stupid, it just gives people a foothold to make that stupid argument.

Bumping with a solid THIS^

The tailor can be loosen up but I will always choose a "half done" or even "half" faction over no faction and I'm sure most Trek fans would too.

warpangel

rosetyler51 wrote: »

jexsamx wrote: »

The primary flaw in this argument is it places higher value on customization over any other aspect on the game, which is a biased position that misses much of the point of the game, and arguably much of the point of a role-playing game specifically.

I'll preface this by saying I do stand in favor of more relaxed restrictions for character customization. The convoluted subcategories, as you so rightly pointed out, are nothing but a restrictive nuisance, and in cases such as the KDF, there aren't many logical reasons to withhold some species' outfits from another - for instance, why couldn't a Gorn wear Nausicaan armor, etc.

However, you have to remember one key fact - for the game's setting, and indeed any roleplaying setting, to retain its own flavor and integrity, there must be rules that everyone must abide by. If costumes were truly fully accessible to everyone with no restriction whatsoever, you wind up with things that... y'know nevermind, I can already see where this can be countered and I know there's no way I can argue my way out of that corner, so I'll just say that lockbox outfits are provided with a lore explanation that works so those are okay even if they are usually intensely stupid.

I'm all for relaxed restrictions but opening the floodgates is a stupid idea and Cryptic already allowing it to some extent doesn't make it less stupid, it just gives people a foothold to make that stupid argument.

Bumping with a solid THIS^

The tailor can be loosen up but I will always choose a "half done" or even "half" faction over no faction and I'm sure most Trek fans would too.

And thats where your argument will always fail. Because you're not arguing for your right to choose faction outfits, but against everyone else's right to choose something different.

jodarkrider

warpangel wrote: »

And thats where your argument will always fail. Because you're not arguing for your right to choose faction outfits, but against everyone else's right to choose something different.

This.

If more options are added, it doesn't harm anyone... on the other side, restricting others from making choices for themselves, because you don't like something is hardly fair or nice. Star Trek is rich & there's just no way that everyone will like the exact same thing. Let people choose the Star Trek and style suiting to them. Include, don't exclude. Choose and let others choose. That kind of thing. IDIC. Appreciate the diversity.

We all (or most of us here) like the same thing (That being Star Trek), and the constant need to fight someone else over having possibility of making choices you may personally dislike is unecessary. Appreciate that most of us are Star Trek fans, even if the views or things we like are entirely different.
/Le-howgh.

boatswas

I would suggest adding a character flag / achievement to the different storylines. Once your character has passed into the Borg chain, for instance, they're no longer still doing content in the Klingon War - so, it would make sense at that point to open up some cross-faction goodies.

Each faction has (some) canon backing it - but, for those at endgame content, when they're fighting the Borg, Breen, Iconians, Terrans, Na'khul... well, the origins' faction restrictions don't really make as much sense.

rosetyler51

Why am I getting bullied on? I'm just agreeing with what jexsamx said because it is true. I'm not arguing "against everyone else's right to choose something different", I don't even think I'm arguing. I'm just saying and sorry for stealing jexsamx's words but he said it better than I ever could.

for the game's setting, and indeed any roleplaying setting, to retain its own flavor and integrity, there must be rules that everyone must abide by.

jodarkrider

rosetyler51 wrote: »

Why am I getting bullied on? I'm just agreeing with what jexsamx said because it is true. I'm not arguing "against everyone else's right to choose something different", I don't even think I'm arguing. I'm just saying and sorry for stealing jexsamx's words but he said it better than I ever could.

for the game's setting, and indeed any roleplaying setting, to retain its own flavor and integrity, there must be rules that everyone must abide by.

And in a healthy discussion we merely disagree. There are layers and variations, and enforcing too many restrictions is doing only one thing - taking away options and the variety Star Trek itself promotes.

rosetyler51

jodarkrider wrote: »

rosetyler51 wrote: »

Why am I getting bullied on? I'm just agreeing with what jexsamx said because it is true. I'm not arguing "against everyone else's right to choose something different", I don't even think I'm arguing. I'm just saying and sorry for stealing jexsamx's words but he said it better than I ever could.

for the game's setting, and indeed any roleplaying setting, to retain its own flavor and integrity, there must be rules that everyone must abide by.

And in a healthy discussion we merely disagree. There are layers and variations, and enforcing too many restrictions is doing only one thing - taking away options and the variety Star Trek itself promotes.

But can we agree restrictions are need? There has to be a middle ground. We both want the same thing just not at the same level.

jodarkrider

rosetyler51 wrote: »

But can we agree restrictions are need? There has to be a middle ground. We both want the same thing just not at the same level.

I am all for the canon species being restricted to their biological features. Like, don't give Caitian tails to Ferengi or claws to Humans.

As far as other assets, like hair? No need to restrict those to species or gender. Or clothes. Or other asseets, like Borg-implants.

TL;DR if you legitimaly obtained an outfit or other assets, aside of biological features, there should not be restrictions. That's what I personally believe and my stance on that has not changed.

Likewise, 'hidden' tailor features, like 'Facial preset' which actually gives expressions to characters should be accessible to the players.

And alien-gen should even have the 'biological' freedom. Not only it promotes creativity, but even gives people option to create half-Klingon and other species-hybrids.

jexsamx

warpangel wrote: »

And thats where your argument will always fail. Because you're not arguing for your right to choose faction outfits, but against everyone else's right to choose something different.

But that's not a failure of the argument, it's exactly the point.

Generally speaking, no character of faction A should be able to wear outfits belonging to faction B or C. Your Human should not go around in a Klingon uniform, because you are not a Klingon, a member of the KDF, an ally of the Klingons, etc. You are, as far as the game is concerned, a member of the UFP, and that should (almost) always form the core of your uniform options to the exclusion of other factions' core uniforms.

There is, of course, a list of exceptions. For instance, a Fed Klingon should probably have access to KDF uniforms, much like Worf had his own personal Klingon garb for ceremonies and such. Further, no uniform that isn't faction specific should be faction-locked. Take the Seven of Nine outfit, the T'Pol outfit, the Talaxian outfits - none of these represent a playable faction, and as such have no real reason to be faction locked. Even Troi's early TNG outfit could be argued for faction-neutrality, given it's not strictly a Starfleet uniform. Romulan civilian outfits should also, in turn, be available via some means to Fed and KDF characters since they don't represent the Republic, but its civilian populace. Borg parts, provided you posses a lifetime sub, should be available to any and every character you have, no just your Lib Borg. KDF racial outfits get a bit tricky, since we don't really know what constitutes a uniform and what it just general garb, but I personally feel those outfits should be locked to the KDF, but available to every KDF race.

I want relaxed tailor restrictions, I really do. But it shouldn't come at the cost of any remaining sense of integrity the game's tailor still has. I understand how important choice is to roleplaying, I sincerely do, but I also understand how important a consistent setting that has and obeys its own rules is. Breaking those rules in their entirety would necessarily call into question the need for factions to start with, or missions, or anything that serves to differentiate player groups from each other, and at that point you should just be playing Second Life. There has to be structure of some kind.

The pragmatic argument would be "Cryptic has already broken those rules for ships, why not for uniforms?" To which I can only reply, "two wrongs don't make a right."

jodarkrider wrote: »

If more options are added, it doesn't harm anyone...

I could argue that it does. Immersion is an important part of roleplaying for a lot of people, which a fully unlocked outfit tailor would only serve to damage - maybe not your immersion, maybe not your fleetmates', but someone else's. You can't claim with any certainty that it would be completely harmless to everyone's experience.

jodarkrider

jexsamx wrote: »

I could argue that it does. Immersion is an important part of roleplaying for a lot of people, which a fully unlocked outfit tailor would only serve to damage - maybe not your immersion, maybe not your fleetmates', but someone else's. You can't claim with any certainty that it would be completely harmless to everyone's experience.

Let me play a devil's advocate as well, then - Why should I or anyone else, conform to someone else's perception of immersion, with my/their characters? And roleplaying? I have a story for my character, where it'd make sense to wear this & that outfit. And I can't. Why is someone else's perception of roleplaying & immersion somehow suddenly, superior to someone else?

More freedom for everyone, ergo, harms no-one. Only those wishing to control the characters of others would be "harmed" by the fact that other people, with their characters, potentially would not conform to their perception of canon, roleplaying, immersion or whatever.

rahhmi

Yep, I'm late. But if the primary argument against fashion freedom is immersion... consider this.

When you go to Earth spacedock, the majority of players use the Odyssey Uniform. There are many other variants, but this is one a vast majority of them use.... some to "fit with canon" and others "because they don't really customize".

...so "opening the floodgates" so to speak, would create the exact same scenario.

Here's an example... (reusing an image from another post)


Normally speaking, this hairstyle is only available to the Romulan faction only.

The "undershirt" depicted on the 3 pictures to the right is also Romulan Only.

Does my character still look like a Federation Character? Did it to begin with considering my entire fleet uses a blue/grey color scheme to their outfits and ignores the "everything went odyssey" part of the storyline that members of cryptic implimented?

...At the end of the day. If we're going to limit everything, let's remove outfit customization entirely like some older MMOs do and just let everyone use the same exact character model. Then we'll all be a generic fed character.

captkelly31

What RR could use is an option for wearing the undershirt without the layer above it.

trennan

All I read here was...

"WAHHH, I'm a Feddiebear. WAAHHHH! I want what they have. WAHHHH! Give it to me! WAAAHHH! WAHHHH! WAHHH!!"

theraven2378

OP, I agree. An extra more modest option on the open costumes for female officers would be excellent

wendysue53

I'm not arguing this either way. Although I am all in favor for customization, there has to be a point to it or a purpose to the game if you're going to add all these extra memory hogs to a game. This isn't a game like Gaia, which focuses on just this type of issue - that's it's purpose: costumes.

STO has a lot of clothing items and tweeks you can use - if you unlock them WHILE they are still available for that PARTICULAR toon you're using at the time. Part of the problem with this is the old "infinity tailor" bug. Really, put a crimp in Cryptic releasing more things, though it was probably fun at the time.

As for Remen/Romulan, look to see what you still haven't unlocked. Romulan Survivor Pack may have some stuff you still don't have.

Just saying.

wendysue53

One of the reasons STO's 'zones' are so small is because the game engine can't handle too many things at once. Really plays havoc on even new tech trying to render some of it for some reason. Shouldn't be as much of a problem for the consoles, but we'll have to wait and see. If it's a problem there, then it's just another issue with their engine and not the tech.

To test this, just pop 15+ Security Teams or get 50+ ships on the screen at once. What happens? That's one reason to minimize the amount of detail.