I think the posts on the Tribble forums have lately that you can't be clear enough. But i think the major points of confusions are:
The terminology is or at least was not always used consistently. There are examples of shield resistance and shield hardness in tool tip texts.
It's not evident automatically that these things even are seperate mechanics.
Right on the stacking. So far as I know, the cap's always been there (and it is a hardcap, at 75%), but I could be mistaken on how long it's been around.
I seem to remember it didn't always exist. I think it was introduced before F2P, though. In one of the earlier revamps, when they introduced the concept of shield hardness from shield power, "funny" thnigs happened in PvP, where ships ended up almost invulnerable because even though you couldn't get to 100 %, you could get cose in the upper 80/90 region that it was almost the same thing.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think the posts on the Tribble forums have lately that you can't be clear enough. But i think the major points of confusions are:
The terminology is or at least was not always used consistently. There are examples of shield resistance and shield hardness in tool tip texts.
It's not evident automatically that these things even are seperate mechanics.
Right on the stacking. So far as I know, the cap's always been there (and it is a hardcap, at 75%), but I could be mistaken on how long it's been around.
I seem to remember it didn't always exist. I think it was introduced before F2P, though. In one of the earlier revamps, when they introduced the concept of shield hardness from shield power, "funny" thnigs happened in PvP, where ships ended up almost invulnerable because even though you couldn't get to 100 %, you could get cose in the upper 80/90 region that it was almost the same thing.
Huh, TIL. And, FWIW, so far as I know shield resistance = shield hardness. It's a bit confusing, because the new skill tree uses the term "shield hardness" to refer to a skill that grants up to 20% shield resistance, but from what I remember seeing on the delta shields, it's the same thing.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Basically, it just looks like your bleedthrough is higher than expected.
Let's say I fire a magical 1000 damage AP beam at you. For ease of calculations, you have -100% antiproton hull resistance (I debuffed you really badly), but +50% antiproton shield resistance, and the standard 10% bleedthrough is in effect.
In a magical world where you have like 5k on the current facing, 900 hits shields, and is reduced to 450, while 100 hits hull, and is amplified to 200. Your combat tab would show this:
Jarvis gives 450 (1800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
But, let's say that instead, you only have 200 on your current facing.
I'm trying to throw 900 of the damage of my shot at your shields, but they can't take it, even after reducing it to 450. So instead, the 200 that exists absorbs 400 of the pre-resist damage (200 actual damage) because you've got 50% shield AP resist. There's still 600 damage in this shot, so your hull takes it as 1200 damage (because you've got -100% hull ap resist). Your combat tab would now show this:
Jarvis gives 200 (800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 1200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
Something I brought up w/ @jarvisandalfred concerning how the log could be written:
" Couldn't a system be used to where we have the combat present the following data:
nimbus updates? interesting...now would you mind also fixing the various bits of paradise city and crashed starship geometry that can no longer be jumped on while standing on, therefore making acquisition of certain accolades damn near impossible?
How bout also fixing the fact that its.....uh..... THE WRONG PLANET!!!! (Planet Model in the Space Map)
Unless they did mass terraforming and didn't say anything.... lolol
the wrong planet model doesn't prevent me from getting accolades...not being able to jump while on those slanted support beams near the lookout tower used in one of the accolades, however, does, because it prevents me from getting on the paradise city rooftops for the Watching the Nothing, Tipsy Top and Nimble on Nimbus accolades
Then there is also the accolade for the cockpit of the ship that's used for the prison. My Bridge Officers had an easier time getting there than I was (as in the way we used to be able to get to those accolade locations).
We will be bringing down the Tribble server for maintenance to apply a new update: ST.60.20160319a.2.
General:
Nimbus III:
Set up the front gate of Paradise City so that it is no longer a valid place to create cover shields.
There are a few other locations that shouldn't be a valid place to create cover shields (I don't know if they were already were resolved before this and if so, please disregard this).
The rear entrance to the city/bar and the corridors that lead into the bar itself which includes the doorway to the city itself.
Considering entering/exiting (to go to the city proper and back again) the bar is critical in completing the story arc, these need to be addressed as well.
Aegis is definitely the shield that granted hull resistance. Kept me alive against heavy Borg damage back in the day, plasma fire and I was sitting pretty. It also was adaptive.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Basically, it just looks like your bleedthrough is higher than expected.
Let's say I fire a magical 1000 damage AP beam at you. For ease of calculations, you have -100% antiproton hull resistance (I debuffed you really badly), but +50% antiproton shield resistance, and the standard 10% bleedthrough is in effect.
In a magical world where you have like 5k on the current facing, 900 hits shields, and is reduced to 450, while 100 hits hull, and is amplified to 200. Your combat tab would show this:
Jarvis gives 450 (1800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
But, let's say that instead, you only have 200 on your current facing.
I'm trying to throw 900 of the damage of my shot at your shields, but they can't take it, even after reducing it to 450. So instead, the 200 that exists absorbs 400 of the pre-resist damage (200 actual damage) because you've got 50% shield AP resist. There's still 600 damage in this shot, so your hull takes it as 1200 damage (because you've got -100% hull ap resist). Your combat tab would now show this:
Jarvis gives 200 (800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 1200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
Also, for sanity's sake, wouldn't your last example look like the following:
900 AP attack
Jarvis gives 200 (800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 1200 (900) damage to your hull with AP beam.
Do you mean "would it if it had actually happened?" or "would it be cool?" The attack was a 1k attack; it's just that it default tries to throw 900 at the shields.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Basically, it just looks like your bleedthrough is higher than expected.
Let's say I fire a magical 1000 damage AP beam at you. For ease of calculations, you have -100% antiproton hull resistance (I debuffed you really badly), but +50% antiproton shield resistance, and the standard 10% bleedthrough is in effect.
In a magical world where you have like 5k on the current facing, 900 hits shields, and is reduced to 450, while 100 hits hull, and is amplified to 200. Your combat tab would show this:
Jarvis gives 450 (1800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
But, let's say that instead, you only have 200 on your current facing.
I'm trying to throw 900 of the damage of my shot at your shields, but they can't take it, even after reducing it to 450. So instead, the 200 that exists absorbs 400 of the pre-resist damage (200 actual damage) because you've got 50% shield AP resist. There's still 600 damage in this shot, so your hull takes it as 1200 damage (because you've got -100% hull ap resist). Your combat tab would now show this:
Jarvis gives 200 (800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 1200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
Also, for sanity's sake, wouldn't your last example look like the following:
900 AP attack
Jarvis gives 200 (800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 1200 (900) damage to your hull with AP beam.
Do you mean "would it if it had actually happened?" or "would it be cool?" The attack was a 1k attack; it's just that it default tries to throw 900 at the shields.
Jarvis gives 450 (1800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
Where does the (1800) part of the "damage to your shields" line comes from?
Walking back through the example, -100% hull resist, +50% shield resist, 1k shot, 10% bleedthrough.
1k shot, 10% bleedthrough, so 900 damage is going towards the shields. That hits 50% resist and gets halved, so that's where the 450 comes from. The parenthetical - the (1800) in question - is not "base damage to shields", but, in fact, "damage shields prevented to hull" - it's the base damage going towards shields if hull resist (-100%, in this case) had been applied. 900 base damage going against a -100% resistance target would deal 1800, so that's the damage the shields prevented the hull from taking.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Uh....I thought shields had nothing to do with hull resistance.
(WTH...let me re-read the whole thing)
Correct, shields resistance and hull resistance are completely unrelated, as far as actual combat goes.
How the combatlog records stuff is an entirely different matter.
Its format is as follows:
Timestamp::Owner of attack, thing attack originated from, target, hitpointalteringability, damagetype, (optional:damage flags such as crit/flank/etc), number1, number2
If the damagetype=shields, then number1 = damage shields took, and number2=damage shields prevented to hull.
If the damagetype = not shields (phaser/kinetic/radiation/whatever), number1 = damage hull took, and number2 = base damage of shot.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
The terminology is or at least was not always used consistently. There are examples of shield resistance and shield hardness in tool tip texts.
It's not evident automatically that these things even are separate mechanics.
Are you trying to say: "Shield Hardness" is only to be considered a place holder for this particular action made in the program. As in : Software Toggle
Where as, "shield resistance" is a result of taking points in that skill....or getting points in that skill from gear/traits? As in : what the toggle is "hard wired" to.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
The terminology is or at least was not always used consistently. There are examples of shield resistance and shield hardness in tool tip texts.
It's not evident automatically that these things even are separate mechanics.
Are you trying to say: "Shield Hardness" is only to be considered a place holder for this particular action made in the program. As in : Software Toggle
Where as, "shield resistance" is a result of taking points in that skill....or getting points in that skill from gear/traits? As in : what the toggle is "hard wired" to.
No?
I am saying that the terminology was or is not always used consistently, which adds to confusion about the mechanic.
And it's not obvious for players that there could even be two different things lowering damage, one for shields, one for hull.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It seems to me that it will be almost impossible to have things entirely clear with hull resistance and shield hardness, since ther eare so many powers and traits in the game and so many tooltips that might need a clarification or are non-intuitive.
Shield Hardness and Hull Resistances are two different things.
Shield Hardness affects damage that goes to your shields.
Hull Resistnace affects damage that goes to your hull.
When you are being hit for damage, a portion of that damage will (almost) always go to your hull - this is bleedthrough damage. Shield Hardness doesn't matter here.
The other portion goes to your shields. Hull Resistance doesn't matter here.
Hull Resistances have a diminishing return formula that looks pretty complicated and also provides a cap at 75 % damage reduction.
Ish. Normal positive hull resist, called simply "resistance magnitude" or "resistancing rating" - e.g. 99% of all +resistance sources in the game, goes through the diminishing returns curve: m(x) = (1/4) + (3 * ((75/(150+x))^2)). Short version of it - that's got diminishing returns that approaches 75% as your "resistance magnitude" approaches infinity.
Debuffs (which are wonky on holodeck, but as I understand fixed on tribble), go through the same curve, except the curve is applied as (positive resistance curve/negative resistance curve)=resistance multiplier, since otherwise they wouldn't be debuffs.
Then there's stuff like, as you mentioned, Ablative Armor, or, more recently, the Adaptive Emergency System (I think the other two sources are the dyson t2 and cc t2 rep passives). These are "bonus" resistance, which seems to run on a 100/(100+sum) curve.
Shield Hardnesses stack multiplicatively, that means if you have 20 % hardness (0.8 damage multiplier) from one source and 15 % hardness from another source (0.85 damage multiplier), the result is 0.8 * 0.85 = 0.68 => 32 % hardness.
IIRC, there is also a hard cap for this (Also 75 %?), which did not always exist.
Right on the stacking. So far as I know, the cap's always been there (and it is a hardcap, at 75%), but I could be mistaken on how long it's been around.
Kinetic damage to shields always is reduced to 25 %. But is this a hardness figure? Presumably this still is allowed to stack beyond the cap.
Like resilient shield's "absorption", this isn't so much 'hardness' so much as it is 'free damage mitigation'. This is applied completely outside the 75% shield resist/hardness/whatever you want to call it hardcap.
Damage Overflow from Shields to Hull
Sometimes more damage goes to your shields then they can take. What happens to the remainder?
Basically, it just looks like your bleedthrough is higher than expected.
Let's say I fire a magical 1000 damage AP beam at you. For ease of calculations, you have -100% antiproton hull resistance (I debuffed you really badly), but +50% antiproton shield resistance, and the standard 10% bleedthrough is in effect.
In a magical world where you have like 5k on the current facing, 900 hits shields, and is reduced to 450, while 100 hits hull, and is amplified to 200. Your combat tab would show this:
Jarvis gives 450 (1800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
But, let's say that instead, you only have 200 on your current facing.
I'm trying to throw 900 of the damage of my shot at your shields, but they can't take it, even after reducing it to 450. So instead, the 200 that exists absorbs 400 of the pre-resist damage (200 actual damage) because you've got 50% shield AP resist. There's still 600 damage in this shot, so your hull takes it as 1200 damage (because you've got -100% hull ap resist). Your combat tab would now show this:
Jarvis gives 200 (800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 1200 (1000) damage to your hull with AP beam.
I am almost certain that there is at least one shield (probably Aegis) that also grants you hull resistances, despite being a shield, while other shields (like Elite Fleet Shields) give you hardness against some damage.
Yup. There's a few shields (Jem has kinetic, for example) that grant hull resist and shield resist. It's a thing that they do. I think they're fairly clear about it, but I might be wrong.
Thanks, that answers pretty much all my outstanding questions and confirms what I already knew.
Someone mind checking and seeing if the Accolade "Fought The Good Fight" is properly crediting defeating the Prison Warden on Tribble? I fought the Warden twice today on Holodeck and "Fought The Good Fight" still doesn't have 'Fend off the Prison Warden near the Stronghold' ticked off, so I'd like to know if it's doing this just on Holodeck or if it's not properly crediting it on Tribble as well...
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Comments
The terminology is or at least was not always used consistently. There are examples of shield resistance and shield hardness in tool tip texts.
It's not evident automatically that these things even are seperate mechanics.
I seem to remember it didn't always exist. I think it was introduced before F2P, though. In one of the earlier revamps, when they introduced the concept of shield hardness from shield power, "funny" thnigs happened in PvP, where ships ended up almost invulnerable because even though you couldn't get to 100 %, you could get cose in the upper 80/90 region that it was almost the same thing.
Huh, TIL. And, FWIW, so far as I know shield resistance = shield hardness. It's a bit confusing, because the new skill tree uses the term "shield hardness" to refer to a skill that grants up to 20% shield resistance, but from what I remember seeing on the delta shields, it's the same thing.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Something I brought up w/ @jarvisandalfred concerning how the log could be written:
" Couldn't a system be used to where we have the combat present the following data:
damageReallyDone2Shields(damage2ShieldsPreResistValue)[baseDMG]
&
damageReallyDone2Hull(Damage2HullPreResistValue)[baseDMG]
and be done with it? "
Also, for sanity's sake, wouldn't your last example look like the following:
900 AP attack
Jarvis gives 200 (800) damage to your shields with AP beam.
Jarvis deals 1200 (900) damage to your hull with AP beam.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Then there is also the accolade for the cockpit of the ship that's used for the prison. My Bridge Officers had an easier time getting there than I was (as in the way we used to be able to get to those accolade locations).
There are a few other locations that shouldn't be a valid place to create cover shields (I don't know if they were already were resolved before this and if so, please disregard this).
The rear entrance to the city/bar and the corridors that lead into the bar itself which includes the doorway to the city itself.
Considering entering/exiting (to go to the city proper and back again) the bar is critical in completing the story arc, these need to be addressed as well.
Do you mean "would it if it had actually happened?" or "would it be cool?" The attack was a 1k attack; it's just that it default tries to throw 900 at the shields.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Ahh I misread. My fault.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Where does the (1800) part of the "damage to your shields" line comes from?
(It has something to do with shield resistance, doesn't it? Yeah, I am still lost)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Walking back through the example, -100% hull resist, +50% shield resist, 1k shot, 10% bleedthrough.
1k shot, 10% bleedthrough, so 900 damage is going towards the shields. That hits 50% resist and gets halved, so that's where the 450 comes from. The parenthetical - the (1800) in question - is not "base damage to shields", but, in fact, "damage shields prevented to hull" - it's the base damage going towards shields if hull resist (-100%, in this case) had been applied. 900 base damage going against a -100% resistance target would deal 1800, so that's the damage the shields prevented the hull from taking.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
(WTH...let me re-read the whole thing)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Correct, shields resistance and hull resistance are completely unrelated, as far as actual combat goes.
How the combatlog records stuff is an entirely different matter.
Its format is as follows:
Timestamp::Owner of attack, thing attack originated from, target, hitpointalteringability, damagetype, (optional:damage flags such as crit/flank/etc), number1, number2
If the damagetype=shields, then number1 = damage shields took, and number2=damage shields prevented to hull.
If the damagetype = not shields (phaser/kinetic/radiation/whatever), number1 = damage hull took, and number2 = base damage of shot.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Thanks for attempting it, though.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Are you trying to say: "Shield Hardness" is only to be considered a place holder for this particular action made in the program. As in : Software Toggle
Where as, "shield resistance" is a result of taking points in that skill....or getting points in that skill from gear/traits? As in : what the toggle is "hard wired" to.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I am saying that the terminology was or is not always used consistently, which adds to confusion about the mechanic.
And it's not obvious for players that there could even be two different things lowering damage, one for shields, one for hull.
Thanks, that answers pretty much all my outstanding questions and confirms what I already knew.
Since the topic has cropped up in multiple threads now, I tried to write a summary thread in the STO Academy.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1213664/shield-hardness-bleedthrough-absorption-resilient-shield-shield-penetration-and-you
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...