It's probably too late to ask for the podcast now, and he probably wouldn't answer, but I'd be curious to hear from Captain Geko about whether the 70% Fed share is increasing, decreasing, or holding steady. If it's decreasing, then maybe there is a glimmer of hope for next year.
The thing is though, what reason does Cryptic have to lie about the ratio?
Personally, I don't think that they are. I'm just saying we don't have access to the metrics so we can't look at it ourselves. There might be nuance here in the numbers we don't know about.
What reason do they have to not put more work into KDF and Romulan content if there really was an enormous amount of profit to be made? Do they secretly hate making huge profits? Or is it more reasonable to assume that when they look at the numbers the content won't give them that reward?
I like the idea of faction-specific content. I enjoyed playing the Romulan and KDF faction-specific stories. And I agree that the game would be better if I had more choices in what approach to take during an episode. That allows more variation in my characters, regardless of faction.
But: unless you really think Cryptic hates profit, it's more reasonable to assume that they know what they are doing even if you or I would reward them for a new KDF ship or Romulan costume. Apparently there are not enough people like that in their metrics.
There could be lots of reasons, and they don't all have to be rational business ones. I'll give an example that shouldn't be too controversial. The KDF community have been asking for a K'vort Bird-of-prey since, as I understand it, launch or shortly afterwards (I haven't been playing since launch but I've been playing since F2P, so what's that... four years? I've definitely noticed repeated calls for a K'Vort in that time). They've also asked for the B'Rel, which they've gotten several versions of, and I think it was one of the first C-store endgame ships for the faction. But no K'Vort. Why? It can't possibly be that hard or costly in development time to make one. It shares the same skin as the B'Rel, it'll just be bigger and maybe not have the wing animation. It'll have different stats but not wildly different. So why? On the face of it it seems like it wouldn't cost that much to produce and it would be guaranteed sales, small sales but guaranteed nonetheless.
But Geko doesn't like the K'Vort. He said as much in one of those Priority One interviews I listened to years ago. I believe the phrase he used was something like 'That's the bird-of-prey that's as big as Negh'var right?' I mean whether it is or it isn't that size the context of that statement was dismissive. (He's said other things too over the years but my intention is not to bash Geko.)
Basically I do agree with the general point you make, that they wouldn't be adverse towards making content for a profit. But I don't think *every* decision that gets made is done purely for profit motive, or for strictly rational business reasons. Sometimes personal dislike or bias enters into it. And maybe sometimes the decision isn't even in their hands. Like an endgame Connie. Not to beat a dead horse into mush any further but I bet they'd make a T6 Connie today if CBS said ok.
It's probably too late to ask for the podcast now, and he probably wouldn't answer, but I'd be curious to hear from Captain Geko about whether the 70% Fed share is increasing, decreasing, or holding steady. If it's decreasing, then maybe there is a glimmer of hope for next year.
The thing is though, what reason does Cryptic have to lie about the ratio?
Personally, I don't think that they are. I'm just saying we don't have access to the metrics so we can't look at it ourselves. There might be nuance here in the numbers we don't know about.
What reason do they have to not put more work into KDF and Romulan content if there really was an enormous amount of profit to be made? Do they secretly hate making huge profits? Or is it more reasonable to assume that when they look at the numbers the content won't give them that reward?
I like the idea of faction-specific content. I enjoyed playing the Romulan and KDF faction-specific stories. And I agree that the game would be better if I had more choices in what approach to take during an episode. That allows more variation in my characters, regardless of faction.
But: unless you really think Cryptic hates profit, it's more reasonable to assume that they know what they are doing even if you or I would reward them for a new KDF ship or Romulan costume. Apparently there are not enough people like that in their metrics.
There could be lots of reasons, and they don't all have to be rational business ones. I'll give an example that shouldn't be too controversial. The KDF community have been asking for a K'vort Bird-of-prey since, as I understand it, launch or shortly afterwards (I haven't been playing since launch but I've been playing since F2P, so what's that... four years? I've definitely noticed repeated calls for a K'Vort in that time). They've also asked for the B'Rel, which they've gotten several versions of, and I think it was one of the first C-store endgame ships for the faction. But no K'Vort. Why? It can't possibly be that hard or costly in development time to make one. It shares the same skin as the B'Rel, it'll just be bigger and maybe not have the wing animation. It'll have different stats but not wildly different. So why? On the face of it it seems like it wouldn't cost that much to produce and it would be guaranteed sales, small sales but guaranteed nonetheless.
But Geko doesn't like the K'Vort. He said as much in one of those Priority One interviews I listened to years ago. I believe the phrase he used was something like 'That's the bird-of-prey that's as big as Negh'var right?' I mean whether it is or it isn't that size the context of that statement was dismissive. (He's said other things too over the years but my intention is not to bash Geko.)
I think it's more than just a personal opinion of his, though.
Canon ships like the Yeager or the K'Vort are just one thing: Reminders that the realities of even an expensive TV show budget aren't always enough to afford new ship models when they'd be needed, and the limits of model action shot filming techniques.
Sure, Cryptic could probably pump up the B'Rel model and call it "K'Vort". Apple could probably also create a low budget smart phone with minimal low quality features and make a lot of people happy. But why isn't it done? Because it hurts the brand.
Sure, some people here like to laugh when Cryptic talks about stuff not up to their "standards of quality" and all that. But Cryptic means it. They could try to sell us ships for 2,000 Zen without new costumes and just say the new stats justify that. They might even make some people happy, because they just look at their stats. But other customers would realize that this is cheap and that Cryptic isn't trying to deliver quality content anymore.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Would it really hurt the brand though? The only people who would truly care are Star Trek fans and KDF players. For everyone else it doesn't affect them in the slightest. I mean K'Vorts are part of canon. Every fan knows this. It can't be denied. Geko might not like that TV shows with TV budgets can't make a new model of a ship, but that doesn't invalidate what we see on those shows.
I do agree that just selling a T6 K'Vort without any attempt to make the skin unique would be cheap. My preferred option would be a T6 Hegh'ta with maybe a special K'Vort or K'Vort-esque skin option. Different enough to the B'rel but with obvious design borrowings and lineage. But that's getting pretty close to wishful thinking.
Simple fact is that the split in factions is according to last years figures 70:20:10 (Fed:KDF:Rom). So it's hardly supprise get that most things favour the fed side, it's their biggest customer base after all. The way they seem to go now is making most thinks cross faction, ship packs, episodes, rewards etc. That way it pleases the majority fed player base and also allows the KDF and Rom players to partake in the same material.
You know, I agree that it sucks that the KDF faction doesn't get more content, and it's a shame that the Romulans don't get, say, easy access to Romulan boffs and doffs to fill up their rosters with their own people.
But I don't get the vicious side taking here. Like the bitter attitude people show when the plot implies that the KDF and the rom republic join the federation in the future.
The entire POINT of the federation is that all cultures and people are valuable, and that embracing diversity is a good thing. This is one of the core themes of Star Trek: Don't be a bigot, don't hate people because they're different, seek common ground with even the bitterest enemies. TNG started off from a point where the Klingons and the Federation were tight allies. DS9 split them up and brought them back together again. By the end of that series, even Fed/RSE relations were on the mend.
Yeah, the KDF joins the Federation. So does the Romulan Republic. -That- part isn't dev favoritism, it's the themes of the freaking franchise at work.
Still, I find it hard to believe that the Klingon Empire would deign to join the federation - particularly if they could get everything they needed from an alliance (defence, trade etc) whilst keeping their separate identity. The RR and RSE, I can imagine joining the federation because of the damage to their society and their empire; however I would have expected this to occur within a few years of romulus being destroyed, not generations later.
The only ways I can imagine Klingons joining the federation are:
1) a complete disaster of an enemy far more serious than the Iconians. Ie, essentially impossible.
2) the Klingons saw an opportunity to defeat the federation - from within. A Klingon for Federation President, perhaps?
Note, the reverse takeover scenario I would be intrigued if someone could work out a credible story. If anything, the Chinese system of "one country, two systems" might apply to the future Fed/KDF given murder is frowned upon elsewhere in the federation, but honourable combat is mandatory in the KDF (and Andoria?).
Frankly I think the gecko and his personal opinions have a ton more to do with what does/doesn't get put in the lineup, but that's pure opinion and the only "facts" are his past statements/actions.
And for all those all too happy to absorb everything into the Galactic Union version of the UFP... especially in terms of the MMO... who ya gonna shoot when were all one big hippie family?
Story content requires a writing staff and usually new art assets, and those cost money because you have to pay staff for their time and work. So to make three separate storylines and three sets of missions costs 3 times as much for only 30 percent gain. That puts Cryptic in the hole 270%.
They already have a staff that they need to pay. The only way it would cost more to make three separate storylines is if they hired twice the staff to do so, which I never suggested to begin with. That's your strawman. Like I said earlier in the thread, if the playerbase breakdown is 70/30 weighted in favour of Federation players, then it makes sense to bias your development towards Federation players. What doesn't make sense is not catering to the other third of your market. A third of a market isn't some insubstantial amount. That's a big chunk of the market you're not catering to.
They also don't need to make three separate storylines and missions. And I never said that. They allocate a set amount of work towards featured episodes and pay the staff they have already. They would plan these episodes out months if not a full year in advance. How would it increase the workload if they mandated that one of these episodes had a non-Fed faction bias? If they're going to produce let's say ten episodes in a year, seven of them could be Federation biased episodes with two or three being KDF and Rom biased. Hell, I'd accept just one episode a year at this point.
Yeah, we got one recently, it was the one where we put Kagran and House Pegh in charge.
You know, I agree that it sucks that the KDF faction doesn't get more content, and it's a shame that the Romulans don't get, say, easy access to Romulan boffs and doffs to fill up their rosters with their own people.
But I don't get the vicious side taking here. Like the bitter attitude people show when the plot implies that the KDF and the rom republic join the federation in the future.
The entire POINT of the federation is that all cultures and people are valuable, and that embracing diversity is a good thing. This is one of the core themes of Star Trek: Don't be a bigot, don't hate people because they're different, seek common ground with even the bitterest enemies. TNG started off from a point where the Klingons and the Federation were tight allies. DS9 split them up and brought them back together again. By the end of that series, even Fed/RSE relations were on the mend.
Yeah, the KDF joins the Federation. So does the Romulan Republic. -That- part isn't dev favoritism, it's the themes of the freaking franchise at work.
It's kinda canon too, at least in several possible futures.
You know, I agree that it sucks that the KDF faction doesn't get more content, and it's a shame that the Romulans don't get, say, easy access to Romulan boffs and doffs to fill up their rosters with their own people.
But I don't get the vicious side taking here. Like the bitter attitude people show when the plot implies that the KDF and the rom republic join the federation in the future.
The entire POINT of the federation is that all cultures and people are valuable, and that embracing diversity is a good thing. This is one of the core themes of Star Trek: Don't be a bigot, don't hate people because they're different, seek common ground with even the bitterest enemies. TNG started off from a point where the Klingons and the Federation were tight allies. DS9 split them up and brought them back together again. By the end of that series, even Fed/RSE relations were on the mend.
Yeah, the KDF joins the Federation. So does the Romulan Republic. -That- part isn't dev favoritism, it's the themes of the freaking franchise at work.
Still, I find it hard to believe that the Klingon Empire would deign to join the federation - particularly if they could get everything they needed from an alliance (defence, trade etc) whilst keeping their separate identity. The RR and RSE, I can imagine joining the federation because of the damage to their society and their empire; however I would have expected this to occur within a few years of romulus being destroyed, not generations later.
The only ways I can imagine Klingons joining the federation are:
1) a complete disaster of an enemy far more serious than the Iconians. Ie, essentially impossible.
2) the Klingons saw an opportunity to defeat the federation - from within. A Klingon for Federation President, perhaps?
Note, the reverse takeover scenario I would be intrigued if someone could work out a credible story. If anything, the Chinese system of "one country, two systems" might apply to the future Fed/KDF given murder is frowned upon elsewhere in the federation, but honourable combat is mandatory in the KDF (and Andoria?).
Or the Klingons just spent years intermingling with the Federation to the point where becoming a member-species of the federation just made sense. I have never understood this attitude that joining the federation means surrendering their culture or society. Vulcans have a very distinct, rich culture that is exceptionally different from human culture, and they've been a Fed member longer than anyone.
OK... Let us see here... The Federation was created out of necessity due to threats. But here is the thing, The Federation isn't actually a Government that dominates all it's actually a Universal Version of the United Nations:
UFP
an interstellar federal republic, composed of planetary governments that agreed to exist semi-autonomously under a single central government based on the principles of universal liberty, rights, and equality, and to share their knowledge and resources in peaceful cooperation, scientific development, space exploration and defensive purposes.
Funny thing is the Feds have every resources to make the other powers drop to their heel but as such they don't. Because like the UN it was made after the realization that war is a bad thing, for it's members anyway much like how UN was created after world war 2 to prevent the tragedies that happened during that war like trying to purge another race just because the other one thinks they are far superior than the other.
And before anyone says it's the Humans who are running the show think again. As far as I know most of the highest Rank from UFP President to the Highest Admiral of Starfleet Jorell Quinn isn't even Human.
The UFP is something to be feared sure. And the Klingons know it. It's not because of culture assimilation or UFP's god damn policy etch. Klingons are good at keeping their Culture. But the fear is actually because not like them who would just go to war and put their enemies to heel, the UFP doesn't need to do anything to gain more power and support.
Making ships, going to war and trying to suppress rebellions to establish your foot hold on territories through fear is expensive. Really expensive. Yet on the UFP side they got an abundance of resources distributed to their members and technology grows fast because people on that side are working towards something that will benefit everyone and the entire UFP is more focused on technology that enhances life and comfort for their members. They are not Xenophobic which helps a lot into making progress, not really oppressive because that damn Prime Directive that mostly tie them down to not interfere with other culture's belief. Although there are times that this back fires on them but none the less they abide. And yes there are times that those rules got broken but it's not like it's every time. By that fact alone controlling each sector is far much easier for them since as far as we know the Feds are portrait as a Utopian civilization hence bubbly happy people.
Now this is a BIG problem for the other galactic powers. You actually got an abundant resource of man power, technology, resources and loyalty to a belief of freedom and equality that it could threaten your foot hold on your empire or potential targets. Oh god the Klingons are getting close! We got warp capabilities lets enroll for a membership on the UFP! Heck even the ferengi's, the most powerful corporate race in Star Trek is now more inclined to side with the Feds now than any of the Galactic the other powers.
See this is a problem that the other Galactic powers fear about the UFP. If for some reason they went full military they would be really powerful with their abundance of everything. Just look at the Terran Empire. The direct shadow of the UFP.
But here is the deal, it's not only the Klingons who are a war like species that are members of the Feds. The Andorians is an example of one. Andorians are militaristic Imperials. Yet they are a member of the Feds and still have their culture intact. They still enjoy the Usheera and although they did adjust it to enable other races to participate it's still as Brutal as it was before and frankly they could still technically kill off each other but the feds didn't even ban that way of the Andorians.
Every Galactic powers in the Star trek Universe has it's issues. Even the Feds are not immune to it. Hence section 31 exists. But one cannot deny that what the Feds have is more manageable and more attractive than what the others can offer. And they are not forcing anyone to join them nor for anyone to leave.
Or the Klingons just spent years intermingling with the Federation to the point where becoming a member-species of the federation just made sense. I have never understood this attitude that joining the federation means surrendering their culture or society. Vulcans have a very distinct, rich culture that is exceptionally different from human culture, and they've been a Fed member longer than anyone.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
To be fair, the Klingons would be losing some of their identity if, or rather when they join the Federation. I remember reading somewhere, possibly on MemoryAlpha, or hearing a character say it in an episode, that Federation members are not allowed to have their own military outside of local law enforcement and policing units. The Klingons are a warrior-race, and so the military is very, very important to their culture. Joining the Federation would mean they'd have to give up the bulk of their military which would affect their culture to some degree.
Now that I think more about it, I believe it was Sisko who said something about this rule or at least implied it, back when the Bajorans were petitioning for Federation membership but then the Prophets told him that "Bajor must stand alone" in order for it to survive the Dominion War. At least it was something along those lines. Picard likely also had a similar situation in one of those episodes where he was judging whether an alien race had met the standards to apply for Federation membership. I mean, just look at the difference between Vulcans and Andorians pre-and-post-Federation membership. Both were actively at war with each other for a time, meaning that they had to have had a strong enough military to actually wage war. After they joined the Federation, the most you'll hear about their ships or military is something along the lines of "Andorian freighter" or "Vulcan science vessel". The Andorians went from being a very militaristic society to being one where their military was not much more than a glorified police force; the same thing would happen to the Klingons when they join the Federation.
So yes, depending on what a species' culture is, joining the Federation could end up causing them to lose some of their cultural identity. Personally, the idea that Federation members couldn't field their own militaries always seemed a little too restrictive to me. Unless the goal is to keep all of the Federation's defense forces united under one chain of command, not allowing member races and worlds to effectively defend themselves and instead having them rely on Starfleet's assistance constantly would seem to me to be too inconvenient and inefficient.
Or the Klingons just spent years intermingling with the Federation to the point where becoming a member-species of the federation just made sense. I have never understood this attitude that joining the federation means surrendering their culture or society. Vulcans have a very distinct, rich culture that is exceptionally different from human culture, and they've been a Fed member longer than anyone.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
To be fair, the Klingons would be losing some of their identity if, or rather when they join the Federation. I remember reading somewhere, possibly on MemoryAlpha, or hearing a character say it in an episode, that Federation members are not allowed to have their own military outside of local law enforcement and policing units. The Klingons are a warrior-race, and so the military is very, very important to their culture. Joining the Federation would mean they'd have to give up the bulk of their military which would affect their culture to some degree.
Now that I think more about it, I believe it was Sisko who said something about this rule or at least implied it, back when the Bajorans were petitioning for Federation membership but then the Prophets told him that "Bajor must stand alone" in order for it to survive the Dominion War. At least it was something along those lines. Picard likely also had a similar situation in one of those episodes where he was judging whether an alien race had met the standards to apply for Federation membership. I mean, just look at the difference between Vulcans and Andorians pre-and-post-Federation membership. Both were actively at war with each other for a time, meaning that they had to have had a strong enough military to actually wage war. After they joined the Federation, the most you'll hear about their ships or military is something along the lines of "Andorian freighter" or "Vulcan science vessel". The Andorians went from being a very militaristic society to being one where their military was not much more than a glorified police force; the same thing would happen to the Klingons when they join the Federation.
So yes, depending on what a species' culture is, joining the Federation could end up causing them to lose some of their cultural identity. Personally, the idea that Federation members couldn't field their own militaries always seemed a little too restrictive to me. Unless the goal is to keep all of the Federation's defense forces united under one chain of command, not allowing member races and worlds to effectively defend themselves and instead having them rely on Starfleet's assistance constantly would seem to me to be too inconvenient and inefficient.
The way I understand it, it's not that they aren't allowed to have their own military, but that it's considered part of Starfleet. But the TV show never spelled out all the specifics.
There is no reason why the UFP member races could not vote to alter the charter to allow for system defense forces.
Also, at least in STO we see that Houses have fleets under their own control. I haven't dived into Klingon canon but that sounds like medieval armies where there was little or no standing army, but the lords / houses could be called on to assemble one at need. In other words, military service would still exist by joining the fleet of the House that you are aligned with or for commoners that controls the lands you live on.
Or the Klingons just spent years intermingling with the Federation to the point where becoming a member-species of the federation just made sense. I have never understood this attitude that joining the federation means surrendering their culture or society. Vulcans have a very distinct, rich culture that is exceptionally different from human culture, and they've been a Fed member longer than anyone.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
To be fair, the Klingons would be losing some of their identity if, or rather when they join the Federation. I remember reading somewhere, possibly on MemoryAlpha, or hearing a character say it in an episode, that Federation members are not allowed to have their own military outside of local law enforcement and policing units. The Klingons are a warrior-race, and so the military is very, very important to their culture. Joining the Federation would mean they'd have to give up the bulk of their military which would affect their culture to some degree.
Now that I think more about it, I believe it was Sisko who said something about this rule or at least implied it, back when the Bajorans were petitioning for Federation membership but then the Prophets told him that "Bajor must stand alone" in order for it to survive the Dominion War. At least it was something along those lines. Picard likely also had a similar situation in one of those episodes where he was judging whether an alien race had met the standards to apply for Federation membership. I mean, just look at the difference between Vulcans and Andorians pre-and-post-Federation membership. Both were actively at war with each other for a time, meaning that they had to have had a strong enough military to actually wage war. After they joined the Federation, the most you'll hear about their ships or military is something along the lines of "Andorian freighter" or "Vulcan science vessel". The Andorians went from being a very militaristic society to being one where their military was not much more than a glorified police force; the same thing would happen to the Klingons when they join the Federation.
So yes, depending on what a species' culture is, joining the Federation could end up causing them to lose some of their cultural identity. Personally, the idea that Federation members couldn't field their own militaries always seemed a little too restrictive to me. Unless the goal is to keep all of the Federation's defense forces united under one chain of command, not allowing member races and worlds to effectively defend themselves and instead having them rely on Starfleet's assistance constantly would seem to me to be too inconvenient and inefficient.
I think you misunderstood how the UFP goes about it's members. As I said in my Previous post The Andorians are a milataristic and imperial race. They are part of the UFP yet their culture is still intact. The UFP's basic requirements for being a member are a Warp Capable society and a Unified Government. The rest would be if you are willing to share knowledge and help to other members and some resources as well. In canon most of these are said, in TNG The Kes is one of those races that tried to apply for a UFP but was denied because they don't have a unified government and Xenophobic.
As I said before the UFP is the United Nations of Star Trek. Fleets and army is still present for each members but they are considered part of Star Fleet and as one of the Conditions are obligated to report to starfleet if a need arise. Hence we see some other ships in the Series that is not saucer based like the Andorian ships or the Vulcan Ships. But since they are all sharing resources and technology anyway it was always assumed that only a few even bothered to make large scale fleets since it's the Job of Star fleet to Patrol their territories and give aid and protection to the members most specially protectorate members who don't seem to make battleships at all and solely rely on the UFP's Starfleet for protection.
Even Worf, was allowed to practice his Klingon ways inside the Enterprise as long as it doesn't interfere with his duty and responsibility as a crew of a federation ship. And like what happened to Riker in one of the episode where he was transferred to a Klingon ship. One of my most favorite episode of TNG "A Matter of Honor" where Riker is one Badass dude and how much length the Feds go through to respect other culture's ways. Much like how the Vulcans have their own way of working within their own ships, Starfleet has their own. That's why there are also Exchange programs for officers with other races to let people know how Starfleet operates. By this alone it's enough evidence that the other races that are part of starfleet has their own space fleet.
Another example are the Xindi. They are part of the UFP now but they have their own fleet and culture. The only time that the Xindi actually becoming officers on board a different ship not their own is on the USS Titan novel. The ship's layout has aquatic tubes designed for aquatic aliens and has environmental adjusters for crew men who lives on a different environment.
The matter with the Bajorans are more political since Cardassia and the Feds are still in an unstable relationship during DS9. and Bajor is on the border of the Fed/Cardassian Neutral Zone. Bajor eventually was admitted to Federation and they still have their entire culture of religious belief intact. Although this came from the Novel. But if any indication from the DS9 Episode it isn't far fetched.
Or the Klingons just spent years intermingling with the Federation to the point where becoming a member-species of the federation just made sense. I have never understood this attitude that joining the federation means surrendering their culture or society. Vulcans have a very distinct, rich culture that is exceptionally different from human culture, and they've been a Fed member longer than anyone.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
To be fair, the Klingons would be losing some of their identity if, or rather when they join the Federation. I remember reading somewhere, possibly on MemoryAlpha, or hearing a character say it in an episode, that Federation members are not allowed to have their own military outside of local law enforcement and policing units. The Klingons are a warrior-race, and so the military is very, very important to their culture. Joining the Federation would mean they'd have to give up the bulk of their military which would affect their culture to some degree.
Now that I think more about it, I believe it was Sisko who said something about this rule or at least implied it, back when the Bajorans were petitioning for Federation membership but then the Prophets told him that "Bajor must stand alone" in order for it to survive the Dominion War. At least it was something along those lines. Picard likely also had a similar situation in one of those episodes where he was judging whether an alien race had met the standards to apply for Federation membership. I mean, just look at the difference between Vulcans and Andorians pre-and-post-Federation membership. Both were actively at war with each other for a time, meaning that they had to have had a strong enough military to actually wage war. After they joined the Federation, the most you'll hear about their ships or military is something along the lines of "Andorian freighter" or "Vulcan science vessel". The Andorians went from being a very militaristic society to being one where their military was not much more than a glorified police force; the same thing would happen to the Klingons when they join the Federation.
So yes, depending on what a species' culture is, joining the Federation could end up causing them to lose some of their cultural identity. Personally, the idea that Federation members couldn't field their own militaries always seemed a little too restrictive to me. Unless the goal is to keep all of the Federation's defense forces united under one chain of command, not allowing member races and worlds to effectively defend themselves and instead having them rely on Starfleet's assistance constantly would seem to me to be too inconvenient and inefficient.
I think you misunderstood how the UFP goes about it's members. As I said in my Previous post The Andorians are a milataristic and imperial race. They are part of the UFP yet their culture is still intact. The UFP's basic requirements for being a member are a Warp Capable society and a Unified Government. The rest would be if you are willing to share knowledge and help to other members and some resources as well. In canon most of these are said, in TNG The Kes is one of those races that tried to apply for a UFP but was denied because they don't have a unified government and Xenophobic.
As I said before the UFP is the United Nations of Star Trek. Fleets and army is still present for each members but they are considered part of Star Fleet and as one of the Conditions are obligated to report to starfleet if a need arise. Hence we see some other ships in the Series that is not saucer based like the Andorian ships or the Vulcan Ships. But since they are all sharing resources and technology anyway it was always assumed that only a few even bothered to make large scale fleets since it's the Job of Star fleet to Patrol their territories and give aid and protection to the members most specially protectorate members who don't seem to make battleships at all and solely rely on the UFP's Starfleet for protection.
Even Worf, was allowed to practice his Klingon ways inside the Enterprise as long as it doesn't interfere with his duty and responsibility as a crew of a federation ship. And like what happened to Riker in one of the episode where he was transferred to a Klingon ship. One of my most favorite episode of TNG "A Matter of Honor" where Riker is one Badass dude and how much length the Feds go through to respect other culture's ways. Much like how the Vulcans have their own way of working within their own ships, Starfleet has their own. That's why there are also Exchange programs for officers with other races to let people know how Starfleet operates. By this alone it's enough evidence that the other races that are part of starfleet has their own space fleet.
Another example are the Xindi. They are part of the UFP now but they have their own fleet and culture. The only time that the Xindi actually becoming officers on board a different ship not their own is on the USS Titan novel. The ship's layout has aquatic tubes designed for aquatic aliens and has environmental adjusters for crew men who lives on a different environment.
The matter with the Bajorans are more political since Cardassia and the Feds are still in an unstable relationship during DS9. and Bajor is on the border of the Fed/Cardassian Neutral Zone. Bajor eventually was admitted to Federation and they still have their entire culture of religious belief intact. Although this came from the Novel. But if any indication from the DS9 Episode it isn't far fetched.
^ This.
The exact division of powers between the Federation government and the governments of its member worlds is unknown, though various episodes indicate the Federation placed great value on maintaining local sovereignty over local affairs. -memalpha
Also, at one point they discussed how Bolarus apparently still maintains treaties that are independent of the Federation as a whole.
There's also the V'Shar, the Vulcan security service/police/intelligence as an indicator of independent operations. However in regards to military it is implied what has already been said, every external miltary member worlds had are folded into Starfleet for the very reason that no member world can go and start a war with another member or another world. No problem with civilian ships, the vulcan Academy of Sciences has their own fleet, we probably have local police/defense forces but the reaction to external events is unified through Starfleet and the UFP council.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I spruced this up to put in the genie wish thread, but I think I'll leave a copy here too as it seems sort of relevant to issues of faction parity...
I'd like to see two new T5 intel ships for Romulans and two for Klingons, then for all three factions to be offered 3-ship Intel packs and a 9-ship cross-faction Intel mega-bundle.
I'd like for one of the Romulan ships to share a Ship-Trait with an existing Fed intel ship, and the other to share a NEW Ship-Trait with one of the new Klingon intel ships.
Same idea with the Klingons: A currently Fed-Only intel Ship-Skill shared to them and their other new Intel ship sharing the new Rom/Kling Ship-Skill.
That way every faction has one Intel Ship-Trait to call their own (on the intel ships that exist now), one they "share left" around the faction triangle and one they "share right" around the triangle. And I could buy them ALL for a reasonable price.
You know, I agree that it sucks that the KDF faction doesn't get more content, and it's a shame that the Romulans don't get, say, easy access to Romulan boffs and doffs to fill up their rosters with their own people.
But I don't get the vicious side taking here. Like the bitter attitude people show when the plot implies that the KDF and the rom republic join the federation in the future.
The entire POINT of the federation is that all cultures and people are valuable, and that embracing diversity is a good thing. This is one of the core themes of Star Trek: Don't be a bigot, don't hate people because they're different, seek common ground with even the bitterest enemies. TNG started off from a point where the Klingons and the Federation were tight allies. DS9 split them up and brought them back together again. By the end of that series, even Fed/RSE relations were on the mend.
Yeah, the KDF joins the Federation. So does the Romulan Republic. -That- part isn't dev favoritism, it's the themes of the freaking franchise at work.
Still, I find it hard to believe that the Klingon Empire would deign to join the federation - particularly if they could get everything they needed from an alliance (defence, trade etc) whilst keeping their separate identity. The RR and RSE, I can imagine joining the federation because of the damage to their society and their empire; however I would have expected this to occur within a few years of romulus being destroyed, not generations later.
The only ways I can imagine Klingons joining the federation are:
1) a complete disaster of an enemy far more serious than the Iconians. Ie, essentially impossible.
2) the Klingons saw an opportunity to defeat the federation - from within. A Klingon for Federation President, perhaps?
Note, the reverse takeover scenario I would be intrigued if someone could work out a credible story. If anything, the Chinese system of "one country, two systems" might apply to the future Fed/KDF given murder is frowned upon elsewhere in the federation, but honourable combat is mandatory in the KDF (and Andoria?).
Or the Klingons just spent years intermingling with the Federation to the point where becoming a member-species of the federation just made sense. I have never understood this attitude that joining the federation means surrendering their culture or society. Vulcans have a very distinct, rich culture that is exceptionally different from human culture, and they've been a Fed member longer than anyone.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
yeah about that... you know thats really an excuse for vulcans to pull a kirk everytime they meet something new.. and any child that may come from it are vulcan end of story. "what your half human thats sad, not that feel sad... NOW STOP HAVING EMOTIONS AND ACT LIKE A PROPER VULCAN." and with some race they been friends with for like forever. there is a reason every half vulcan we see has a complex.
and they can not keep there minds to them selves I mean really do they have to mindmeld everytime they can get an excuse. and they fact it leave a bit of themselves in you when the do it... and if the sounds a little wrong it gets better, mates mindmeld during sex on a deeper level then one with strangers.
oh and those are the sciencist of the federation, so I can see why klingons think it'll destory them to join feds..and thats not getting into the whole peaceful explorers and klingon not reacting well to peace thing.
oh and on topic yep if your not playing fed as far as cryptic goes your playing the game wrong. and they could do right but that costs money so nope... it wouldn't be so bad if it was a ship here or a failure to change dialogue there. but no it doesn't stop, it's been said by players many times they would roll kdf but they know they'ld get screwed over so they don't.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I don't see how you're getting "screwed over" by Rolling a KDF. Cheapeast Leech, great ships, dogs on your bridge, Worf as your best buddy. The only downside to rolling a KDF (vs Fed) is empty queues and ghost fleets.
LUKARI GUERILLA GARDENING MILITIA - Glowing fingers are Growing fingers!
as for the other thing, D'tan went to both the Federation and Klingon Empire for help, no strings attached, help or don't. After which, both factions offered to take in a few Romulans to let them see how the Federation and Empire really works, and act as kind-of "active ambassadors" to the Republic.
In no way, shape or form, was joining the Federation/Empire an option at Khitomer. D'tan may have refused had that been the case.
(speaking of the Empire, when you're talking about the Klingons joining the Federation it's not just the Klingons, but every world and society in their Empire.. the Orions, Naussicans, Gorn Hegemony etc. You're telling me all these pirate/gangster/warrior worlds are going to say "great! now we can all wear nice boiler suits and do lots of talking instead of fighting, and follow a billion rules to the letter like we're a park attendant. Federation mandate 1111.44523.55 clearly states...."
LUKARI GUERILLA GARDENING MILITIA - Glowing fingers are Growing fingers!
I don't see how you're getting "screwed over" by Rolling a KDF. Cheapeast Leech, great ships, dogs on your bridge, Worf as your best buddy. The only downside to rolling a KDF (vs Fed) is empty queues and ghost fleets.
Do I need to actually list out how ridiculous the Starship-Traits imbalance is?
I don't see how you're getting "screwed over" by Rolling a KDF. Cheapeast Leech, great ships, dogs on your bridge, Worf as your best buddy. The only downside to rolling a KDF (vs Fed) is empty queues and ghost fleets.
targs are more like pigs... and feds can get pigs too yours just wear clothes. you barely interact with worf. whole lines of ship suck til t6. and leech cost dil/zen not ec feds can get leech by throwing enough coffee away... alot of coffee but you could. and very limited ships leveling and not much better at t5/t6.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I don't see how you're getting "screwed over" by Rolling a KDF. Cheapeast Leech, great ships, dogs on your bridge, Worf as your best buddy. The only downside to rolling a KDF (vs Fed) is empty queues and ghost fleets.
my klingon fleet is more active than my fed one.... this is abnormal?
Comments
There could be lots of reasons, and they don't all have to be rational business ones. I'll give an example that shouldn't be too controversial. The KDF community have been asking for a K'vort Bird-of-prey since, as I understand it, launch or shortly afterwards (I haven't been playing since launch but I've been playing since F2P, so what's that... four years? I've definitely noticed repeated calls for a K'Vort in that time). They've also asked for the B'Rel, which they've gotten several versions of, and I think it was one of the first C-store endgame ships for the faction. But no K'Vort. Why? It can't possibly be that hard or costly in development time to make one. It shares the same skin as the B'Rel, it'll just be bigger and maybe not have the wing animation. It'll have different stats but not wildly different. So why? On the face of it it seems like it wouldn't cost that much to produce and it would be guaranteed sales, small sales but guaranteed nonetheless.
But Geko doesn't like the K'Vort. He said as much in one of those Priority One interviews I listened to years ago. I believe the phrase he used was something like 'That's the bird-of-prey that's as big as Negh'var right?' I mean whether it is or it isn't that size the context of that statement was dismissive. (He's said other things too over the years but my intention is not to bash Geko.)
Basically I do agree with the general point you make, that they wouldn't be adverse towards making content for a profit. But I don't think *every* decision that gets made is done purely for profit motive, or for strictly rational business reasons. Sometimes personal dislike or bias enters into it. And maybe sometimes the decision isn't even in their hands. Like an endgame Connie. Not to beat a dead horse into mush any further but I bet they'd make a T6 Connie today if CBS said ok.
Yeah it would be interesting to know.
Canon ships like the Yeager or the K'Vort are just one thing: Reminders that the realities of even an expensive TV show budget aren't always enough to afford new ship models when they'd be needed, and the limits of model action shot filming techniques.
Sure, Cryptic could probably pump up the B'Rel model and call it "K'Vort". Apple could probably also create a low budget smart phone with minimal low quality features and make a lot of people happy. But why isn't it done? Because it hurts the brand.
Sure, some people here like to laugh when Cryptic talks about stuff not up to their "standards of quality" and all that. But Cryptic means it. They could try to sell us ships for 2,000 Zen without new costumes and just say the new stats justify that. They might even make some people happy, because they just look at their stats. But other customers would realize that this is cheap and that Cryptic isn't trying to deliver quality content anymore.
I do agree that just selling a T6 K'Vort without any attempt to make the skin unique would be cheap. My preferred option would be a T6 Hegh'ta with maybe a special K'Vort or K'Vort-esque skin option. Different enough to the B'rel but with obvious design borrowings and lineage. But that's getting pretty close to wishful thinking.
The way they seem to go now is making most thinks cross faction, ship packs, episodes, rewards etc. That way it pleases the majority fed player base and also allows the KDF and Rom players to partake in the same material.
Still, I find it hard to believe that the Klingon Empire would deign to join the federation - particularly if they could get everything they needed from an alliance (defence, trade etc) whilst keeping their separate identity. The RR and RSE, I can imagine joining the federation because of the damage to their society and their empire; however I would have expected this to occur within a few years of romulus being destroyed, not generations later.
The only ways I can imagine Klingons joining the federation are:
1) a complete disaster of an enemy far more serious than the Iconians. Ie, essentially impossible.
2) the Klingons saw an opportunity to defeat the federation - from within. A Klingon for Federation President, perhaps?
Note, the reverse takeover scenario I would be intrigued if someone could work out a credible story. If anything, the Chinese system of "one country, two systems" might apply to the future Fed/KDF given murder is frowned upon elsewhere in the federation, but honourable combat is mandatory in the KDF (and Andoria?).
And for all those all too happy to absorb everything into the Galactic Union version of the UFP... especially in terms of the MMO... who ya gonna shoot when were all one big hippie family?
My character Tsin'xing
Or the Klingons just spent years intermingling with the Federation to the point where becoming a member-species of the federation just made sense. I have never understood this attitude that joining the federation means surrendering their culture or society. Vulcans have a very distinct, rich culture that is exceptionally different from human culture, and they've been a Fed member longer than anyone.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
Funny thing is the Feds have every resources to make the other powers drop to their heel but as such they don't. Because like the UN it was made after the realization that war is a bad thing, for it's members anyway much like how UN was created after world war 2 to prevent the tragedies that happened during that war like trying to purge another race just because the other one thinks they are far superior than the other.
And before anyone says it's the Humans who are running the show think again. As far as I know most of the highest Rank from UFP President to the Highest Admiral of Starfleet Jorell Quinn isn't even Human.
The UFP is something to be feared sure. And the Klingons know it. It's not because of culture assimilation or UFP's god damn policy etch. Klingons are good at keeping their Culture. But the fear is actually because not like them who would just go to war and put their enemies to heel, the UFP doesn't need to do anything to gain more power and support.
Making ships, going to war and trying to suppress rebellions to establish your foot hold on territories through fear is expensive. Really expensive. Yet on the UFP side they got an abundance of resources distributed to their members and technology grows fast because people on that side are working towards something that will benefit everyone and the entire UFP is more focused on technology that enhances life and comfort for their members. They are not Xenophobic which helps a lot into making progress, not really oppressive because that damn Prime Directive that mostly tie them down to not interfere with other culture's belief. Although there are times that this back fires on them but none the less they abide. And yes there are times that those rules got broken but it's not like it's every time. By that fact alone controlling each sector is far much easier for them since as far as we know the Feds are portrait as a Utopian civilization hence bubbly happy people.
Now this is a BIG problem for the other galactic powers. You actually got an abundant resource of man power, technology, resources and loyalty to a belief of freedom and equality that it could threaten your foot hold on your empire or potential targets. Oh god the Klingons are getting close! We got warp capabilities lets enroll for a membership on the UFP! Heck even the ferengi's, the most powerful corporate race in Star Trek is now more inclined to side with the Feds now than any of the Galactic the other powers.
See this is a problem that the other Galactic powers fear about the UFP. If for some reason they went full military they would be really powerful with their abundance of everything. Just look at the Terran Empire. The direct shadow of the UFP.
But here is the deal, it's not only the Klingons who are a war like species that are members of the Feds. The Andorians is an example of one. Andorians are militaristic Imperials. Yet they are a member of the Feds and still have their culture intact. They still enjoy the Usheera and although they did adjust it to enable other races to participate it's still as Brutal as it was before and frankly they could still technically kill off each other but the feds didn't even ban that way of the Andorians.
Every Galactic powers in the Star trek Universe has it's issues. Even the Feds are not immune to it. Hence section 31 exists. But one cannot deny that what the Feds have is more manageable and more attractive than what the others can offer. And they are not forcing anyone to join them nor for anyone to leave.
Now that I think more about it, I believe it was Sisko who said something about this rule or at least implied it, back when the Bajorans were petitioning for Federation membership but then the Prophets told him that "Bajor must stand alone" in order for it to survive the Dominion War. At least it was something along those lines. Picard likely also had a similar situation in one of those episodes where he was judging whether an alien race had met the standards to apply for Federation membership. I mean, just look at the difference between Vulcans and Andorians pre-and-post-Federation membership. Both were actively at war with each other for a time, meaning that they had to have had a strong enough military to actually wage war. After they joined the Federation, the most you'll hear about their ships or military is something along the lines of "Andorian freighter" or "Vulcan science vessel". The Andorians went from being a very militaristic society to being one where their military was not much more than a glorified police force; the same thing would happen to the Klingons when they join the Federation.
So yes, depending on what a species' culture is, joining the Federation could end up causing them to lose some of their cultural identity. Personally, the idea that Federation members couldn't field their own militaries always seemed a little too restrictive to me. Unless the goal is to keep all of the Federation's defense forces united under one chain of command, not allowing member races and worlds to effectively defend themselves and instead having them rely on Starfleet's assistance constantly would seem to me to be too inconvenient and inefficient.
My character Tsin'xing
Also, at least in STO we see that Houses have fleets under their own control. I haven't dived into Klingon canon but that sounds like medieval armies where there was little or no standing army, but the lords / houses could be called on to assemble one at need. In other words, military service would still exist by joining the fleet of the House that you are aligned with or for commoners that controls the lands you live on.
I think you misunderstood how the UFP goes about it's members. As I said in my Previous post The Andorians are a milataristic and imperial race. They are part of the UFP yet their culture is still intact. The UFP's basic requirements for being a member are a Warp Capable society and a Unified Government. The rest would be if you are willing to share knowledge and help to other members and some resources as well. In canon most of these are said, in TNG The Kes is one of those races that tried to apply for a UFP but was denied because they don't have a unified government and Xenophobic.
As I said before the UFP is the United Nations of Star Trek. Fleets and army is still present for each members but they are considered part of Star Fleet and as one of the Conditions are obligated to report to starfleet if a need arise. Hence we see some other ships in the Series that is not saucer based like the Andorian ships or the Vulcan Ships. But since they are all sharing resources and technology anyway it was always assumed that only a few even bothered to make large scale fleets since it's the Job of Star fleet to Patrol their territories and give aid and protection to the members most specially protectorate members who don't seem to make battleships at all and solely rely on the UFP's Starfleet for protection.
Even Worf, was allowed to practice his Klingon ways inside the Enterprise as long as it doesn't interfere with his duty and responsibility as a crew of a federation ship. And like what happened to Riker in one of the episode where he was transferred to a Klingon ship. One of my most favorite episode of TNG "A Matter of Honor" where Riker is one Badass dude and how much length the Feds go through to respect other culture's ways. Much like how the Vulcans have their own way of working within their own ships, Starfleet has their own. That's why there are also Exchange programs for officers with other races to let people know how Starfleet operates. By this alone it's enough evidence that the other races that are part of starfleet has their own space fleet.
Another example are the Xindi. They are part of the UFP now but they have their own fleet and culture. The only time that the Xindi actually becoming officers on board a different ship not their own is on the USS Titan novel. The ship's layout has aquatic tubes designed for aquatic aliens and has environmental adjusters for crew men who lives on a different environment.
The matter with the Bajorans are more political since Cardassia and the Feds are still in an unstable relationship during DS9. and Bajor is on the border of the Fed/Cardassian Neutral Zone. Bajor eventually was admitted to Federation and they still have their entire culture of religious belief intact. Although this came from the Novel. But if any indication from the DS9 Episode it isn't far fetched.
^ This.
The exact division of powers between the Federation government and the governments of its member worlds is unknown, though various episodes indicate the Federation placed great value on maintaining local sovereignty over local affairs. -memalpha
original join date 2010
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My character Tsin'xing
There's also the V'Shar, the Vulcan security service/police/intelligence as an indicator of independent operations. However in regards to military it is implied what has already been said, every external miltary member worlds had are folded into Starfleet for the very reason that no member world can go and start a war with another member or another world. No problem with civilian ships, the vulcan Academy of Sciences has their own fleet, we probably have local police/defense forces but the reaction to external events is unified through Starfleet and the UFP council.
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I'd like to see two new T5 intel ships for Romulans and two for Klingons, then for all three factions to be offered 3-ship Intel packs and a 9-ship cross-faction Intel mega-bundle.
I'd like for one of the Romulan ships to share a Ship-Trait with an existing Fed intel ship, and the other to share a NEW Ship-Trait with one of the new Klingon intel ships.
Same idea with the Klingons: A currently Fed-Only intel Ship-Skill shared to them and their other new Intel ship sharing the new Rom/Kling Ship-Skill.
That way every faction has one Intel Ship-Trait to call their own (on the intel ships that exist now), one they "share left" around the faction triangle and one they "share right" around the triangle. And I could buy them ALL for a reasonable price.
yeah about that... you know thats really an excuse for vulcans to pull a kirk everytime they meet something new.. and any child that may come from it are vulcan end of story. "what your half human thats sad, not that feel sad... NOW STOP HAVING EMOTIONS AND ACT LIKE A PROPER VULCAN." and with some race they been friends with for like forever. there is a reason every half vulcan we see has a complex.
and they can not keep there minds to them selves I mean really do they have to mindmeld everytime they can get an excuse. and they fact it leave a bit of themselves in you when the do it... and if the sounds a little wrong it gets better, mates mindmeld during sex on a deeper level then one with strangers.
oh and those are the sciencist of the federation, so I can see why klingons think it'll destory them to join feds..and thats not getting into the whole peaceful explorers and klingon not reacting well to peace thing.
oh and on topic yep if your not playing fed as far as cryptic goes your playing the game wrong. and they could do right but that costs money so nope... it wouldn't be so bad if it was a ship here or a failure to change dialogue there. but no it doesn't stop, it's been said by players many times they would roll kdf but they know they'ld get screwed over so they don't.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
In no way, shape or form, was joining the Federation/Empire an option at Khitomer. D'tan may have refused had that been the case.
(speaking of the Empire, when you're talking about the Klingons joining the Federation it's not just the Klingons, but every world and society in their Empire.. the Orions, Naussicans, Gorn Hegemony etc. You're telling me all these pirate/gangster/warrior worlds are going to say "great! now we can all wear nice boiler suits and do lots of talking instead of fighting, and follow a billion rules to the letter like we're a park attendant. Federation mandate 1111.44523.55 clearly states...."
Do I need to actually list out how ridiculous the Starship-Traits imbalance is?
targs are more like pigs... and feds can get pigs too yours just wear clothes. you barely interact with worf. whole lines of ship suck til t6. and leech cost dil/zen not ec feds can get leech by throwing enough coffee away... alot of coffee but you could. and very limited ships leveling and not much better at t5/t6.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
That's true *grunts*
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my klingon fleet is more active than my fed one.... this is abnormal?