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So after all the wars that the Alliance has been through just how strong are they?
holyknight22
Member Posts: 174 Arc User
Throughout the course of STO, the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans have constantly been engaged in conflicts. The question is just how strong are these political states as we start fighting throughout time? Let us take a look at the major events that happened in the game and to take into the account the overlapping storylines I will assign certain ones to the factions that it makes the most sense for them to deal with.
Lets look at the history of each state shall we?
Romulans:
1) Splits from the Empire and has only a handful of ships at the flotilla.
2) Establishs a new home and has to defend it against the Elachi and the RSE
3) Expends strength helping the Remans and killing Hakeev (Reman Independence Arc/Nimbus Arc)
4) New Romulus gets toasted by the Gateway Activation and the Herald opening salvo.
5) Loses a significant part of its fleet in the Herald Conflict
Federation:
1) War with the Klingons and Undine Infiltrators, loss of SB24, and the Borg Invasion of Delta Vega
2) Stops B'Vat and his machinations, but loses ships to the Doomsday Machine
3) Stops the Devidian Invasion (Devidian Arc)
4) Defeats an attack against Vulcan by the RSE
5) Takes the former Romulan leader into custody
6) Works with the KDF to repel the invasion of the Borg (Borg Arc)
7) Works with the KDF to repel the 2800 from Deep Space Nine
8) Has Earth Space Dock virtually destroyed during the start of the Undine War
9) Massive losses during the Herald War including SB234 and heavy damage to Earth Space Dock
Klingons:
1) War with the Gorn before the events of STO and hunting out Undine Infiltrators
2) Loss of B'Vat's forces and the House of Torg's forces due to Federation/in-fighting influence.
3) Damage to Klingon forces and Qo'Nos due to Fek'lir Invasion (Fek'lir Arc)
4) Helping the Deferi against the Breen because of their previous help and the Breen attack on Kahless (Breen Arc)
5) Aids the Federation in investigating Fludic Space
6) Helps take back Deep Space Nine from the Dominion
7) Heavy damage to a KDF space dock from an Undine Planet Killer and heavy fleet damage
8) Herald Invasion of Qo'Nos and Qo'nos Space with massive losses during the Iconian War
I know that I did not mention the Dyson Sphere Conflicts or the Delta Alliance. There is no way to gauge the major fleet losses to the Allies and the Alliance did not seem to take major losses against the Vaaduwar. With all of these losses, are these nations even up for another major conflict, especially one where time travel is involved.
Lets look at the history of each state shall we?
Romulans:
1) Splits from the Empire and has only a handful of ships at the flotilla.
2) Establishs a new home and has to defend it against the Elachi and the RSE
3) Expends strength helping the Remans and killing Hakeev (Reman Independence Arc/Nimbus Arc)
4) New Romulus gets toasted by the Gateway Activation and the Herald opening salvo.
5) Loses a significant part of its fleet in the Herald Conflict
Federation:
1) War with the Klingons and Undine Infiltrators, loss of SB24, and the Borg Invasion of Delta Vega
2) Stops B'Vat and his machinations, but loses ships to the Doomsday Machine
3) Stops the Devidian Invasion (Devidian Arc)
4) Defeats an attack against Vulcan by the RSE
5) Takes the former Romulan leader into custody
6) Works with the KDF to repel the invasion of the Borg (Borg Arc)
7) Works with the KDF to repel the 2800 from Deep Space Nine
8) Has Earth Space Dock virtually destroyed during the start of the Undine War
9) Massive losses during the Herald War including SB234 and heavy damage to Earth Space Dock
Klingons:
1) War with the Gorn before the events of STO and hunting out Undine Infiltrators
2) Loss of B'Vat's forces and the House of Torg's forces due to Federation/in-fighting influence.
3) Damage to Klingon forces and Qo'Nos due to Fek'lir Invasion (Fek'lir Arc)
4) Helping the Deferi against the Breen because of their previous help and the Breen attack on Kahless (Breen Arc)
5) Aids the Federation in investigating Fludic Space
6) Helps take back Deep Space Nine from the Dominion
7) Heavy damage to a KDF space dock from an Undine Planet Killer and heavy fleet damage
8) Herald Invasion of Qo'Nos and Qo'nos Space with massive losses during the Iconian War
I know that I did not mention the Dyson Sphere Conflicts or the Delta Alliance. There is no way to gauge the major fleet losses to the Allies and the Alliance did not seem to take major losses against the Vaaduwar. With all of these losses, are these nations even up for another major conflict, especially one where time travel is involved.
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Especially considering that, whenever a Borg cube attacked the Earth or a war began, Starfleet would have to pull ships from everywhere, even ships that were over 100 years old and very outdated.
The counter-argument that is often made then is that Starfleet has become more militaristic. But even if the period from Nemesis to somewhere around 2405 (a good 25 years) were lived in peace with others and used to build new fleets, it's getting hard to believe, at times, that we haven't run out of ships yet. Or personnel.
The Iconian war made things even worse. 1/3 of the fleet lost on the first day of the war, multiple attacks on the Herald Spheres and even the loss of worlds according to the blogs. Yet we still manage to find ships somewhere whenever they are needed, even though this whole war lasted only 6 months, way too short to build replacements for the lost ships.
But at least one could argue that Starfleet and the Federation are established powers and thus have the necessary infrastructure. The Romulan Republic on the other hand, should be focussing on building their homeworld. Not engage in interstellar conflicts such as Task force omega, Dyson battlezone fights against the Voth and the Undine etc. They are too often represented as being even to the Klingon Empire and the Federation, which just doesn't make any sense.
Where do they get the personnel to design, man and maintain their ships? They needed the Empire and the Federation to assist them in building their homeworld, and less than 2 years later they have the infrastructure needed to build entire starships, design new ones, come up with new technologies even when D'Tan specifically mentions the limited availability of scientists?
Building a homeworld would be an enormous task. Even with the assistance from two of the most important powers in our region of space. Supplies and resources can be delivered, but you need to train people as well. Establish institutions to prepare the next generation for taking over. Maintain security on your own homeworld and possibly scout for new planets in the region. Building Scimitars or designing Ha'pax warbirds shouldn't be happening so short after the foundation of the RR. Nor should they be sent away to participate in all different kinds of campaigns at the other side of the Galaxy.
So, to answer the question: these states are not 'strong'. They just happen to be equiped with good armour. Plot armour, which ensures their survival and their ability to fight half the Milky Way, at the same time if necessary.
At times they bring up a fleet with no issues. Then they need to pull ships to make one. During the Iconian War, it was a skirmish and not much of a battle. Then the Blogs told all kinds of fake/lies stories. That wasn't happening in the game.
Its all in the plot of trying to make the story.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
The Romulan Republic. A refugee state that in a few decades might manage to become a regional power in that area of space. Points for playing the Feds and Klinks off each other to get aid, but that is their only good point. They are desperately undermanned, have a cobbled together fleet and no means of production. So the only place the RR can get people and more importantly ships, brand new ones at that, is by the power of the plot device. This minor power gets to sit at the adult's table because people wanted Romulans and this is the version we got. A restored RSE would still have issues but it would be much more believable overall to have the RSE being an equal to the Federation and Klingon Empire and providing ships and manpower.
The Klingon Empire. Established empire that is almost always on a war footing. War is in their blood. Still, they have been on campaign for a while and every empire needs to rest. That said, they are the most believable when it comes to just throwing men and ships into the fire. However, if all their generals are like the idiot that was put in charge of during the Iconian skirmish, and it was a skirmish, then the KDF would be out of ships and men faster than you can say "which idiot?"
The Federation. They probably are down to a skeleton of a skeleton crew. Why else is a Fleet Admiral having to go out and take part in patrols? They are pulling out every possible ship they have, even ships that are hopelessly obsolete. They are even doing away with crews and just going to have you with a small cadre of bridge officers. (yay getting rid of the crew mechanic). Even if the Feds militarized, they only would have had 20 years or so to do it. On top of that, in the last 2 years they have fought every single major empire that they come across. The Feds have to be feeling a personnel shortage even worse than during the Dominion War. This should open the door to more aliens being on Star Fleet crews, but even so, the Feds are a Paper Tiger, just like the Klingons are at this point.
Honestly, the only thing holding the factions together is plot armor. The best kind of armor.
You had better hope so, otherwise STO would quickly become a very boring game
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Yep. We might have to resort to exploration if that happens.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
I'm all up for exploration as long as it is done right (no scanning for anomalies or investigating trace particles thank you
Even the most mundane Trek' episodes had some kind of conflict/antagonist that needed to be resolved - as of yet the dev team seems to be struggling with striking the correct balance (usually just resorting to 'x' has just decloaked whilst you was exploring 'z' therefore kill 'x' to complete 'z' and move onto 'y' (next set of things to kill).
This I buy, when Voyager introduced the EMH they opened the door to ships without a biological crew in a big way although in truth automation by then would be advanced enough to already do it. Heck, they have already done it a number of times in the show with ships being operated with only the bridge crew on board.
No ship should have a crew of significant size. They don't need them.
And yet they put crews (and their families!) on ships that have the life span of a snowflake in the battles that come along. It all makes me think that Star Fleet is little more than a method for the Federation to kill off undesirable elements of their population...
Well the easiest way to figure out the reason why the plot is inconsistent is to look at the STO story itself. When the game debuted, the Borg part was minimized and for the story itself they were primarily shown in the tutorial (which has changed twice now I think?). Those borg were not a major part of the story (the STFs didn't exist even) and the Undine infiltrators were the cause for a renewed war with the Klingons. That was sort of our end-game story.
A LOT of that changed. The Breen came before the Devidians chronologically, but now the Devidian arc comes first. The whole Romulan Republic got shoehorned into the already existing STO story, as a retcon. I think they did a good job of that, but, I guess my point is that if I were to play the storyline from beginning to end with a brand new character today ... it is not the same story my main character has played. And yet it's most of the same missions.
Romulan Republic
Federation
Klingon Empire
We know that because the game is star trek, there is always going to magically be enough ships to get us through the story. We just have to use our imaginations when dealing with how many ships are still out there.
I think the biggest issue with what we see in the movies and shows is that the hero ship and crew have to be faced with greater odds that would seem impossible in reality to overcome so that they remain the heroes. So in instances of the Borg or any other conflict where reinforcements are far away and cant be counted on. Its overblown. And does nothing but undermine the idea of a strong and respectable galactic power like the Federation.
Picard at one point states that the Federation is 8,000 light years from one end to the other. Now even with millions of personnel,thousands of ships and hundreds of Fleets. Theyd be hard pressed to be everywhere at all times. The Space we see in game is a terrible reflection of the space that the Federation and its Allies/Enemies cover. You could fit an entire Fleet into one of those sector blocks and theyd be hard pressed to help each other or cover every corner of the sector block. Smugglers and Scout Ships would still slip through.
I do my best to shrug off what I see in the shows and movies as overblown exaggerated retellings of the events. Almost like legends that you hear of from the times of the Greek States. In reality what actually happened, even when it was very heroic was nothing like what it was we heard or saw. But I also believe that due to the vastness of space. Many of the Powers have an unspoken agreement. When they wage war, they gather their forces much like that of Colonial British and American Militia gathering on some field somewhere and deciding to shoot it out. You wont win if you just try to flood the enemies space with your ships because they could simply do the same in return. Instead you concentrate your power and try to punch a hole in their concentrated power. But the Federation cant just hold its own with a handful of ships like we see in the films and shows. They need a lot of ships, a lot of personnel to patrol their own borders, patrol their own trade lanes and star systems. The Federation is much more of a power house than its let on to be. Its constantly shown as the underdog but its far from it when you take into consideration its population, living conditions, territorial size and technological advancements. You dont get to that point by being the underdog and barely coming out on top in fights youre meant to lose.
Now what do you think you can produce with fleet yards the size of Utopia Planetia and REPLICATORS?!?! These things are nanotech wonder-science assembling on an atomic scale!
Manpower for the Republic, and Trainee filled navies for all 3 forces would be a much bigger issue than ships.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The missions was lovely, but they should have scaled it up a bit outside the missions.
Beside from that, Federation has about four ships left, Enterprise, Lakota, SS Azura and Bob. But Quinn won't acknowledge that to you.
I surmise that the reason the Romulan Republic isn't using replicators to generate food is that they can't come up with enough power yet. Replication (like transporters, like warp drive) takes an enormous amount of energy and they'd need it for other things like building shelters and setting up other infrastructure. I'm reasonably sure that the population of Earth doesn't eat replicated food except in emergencies. The ST:TNG guide from the 80s points out that anti-matter is very expensive to make, so only starships use it for power generation; Earth runs on fusion power and the average person doesn't use the kind of tech found on Starfleet vessels on a daily basis. On a starship the energy cost of replication is held to be cheaper than making the ship large enough to haul around all those people and the food required to sustain them. (And think about it--in STO we get from place-to-place so quickly the ships don't even need toilets. We don't even need a ship's lounge.)
When MMO game mechanics collide with Star Trek canon, there will be issues. Overthinking the issues doesn't make it better. If you sit down to calculate how quickly our ships get from star to star, you find that even without slipstream the velocity is around 30,000,000c. For ST canon, that's far too fast--but the game has to work that way to make it possible to do interesting things at least once a day, and the ST writers of any decade have only followed the canonical speed limits (warp 9.999x) whenever it suited them. Star Trek was never about how fast the ship was flying or where the food came from--it was about the crew, and how they interacted with themselves and the folks they encountered on their journey. (Deep Space Nine varied from that model, but it was still about conflict.)
In fact, Star Trek wasn't "about" exploration at all. Exploration was simply the vehicle that allowed the writers to tell the stories they wanted to tell, and gave greater latitude to the kinds of stories they could tell. MMORPGs, on the other hand, are rarely about finding out what's on the other side of that hill over there--they're about going to the other side of that hill and conquering it. There aren't any medieval farming fantasies--they're all about slaying monsters, and sometimes the rival townsfolk, and accumulating phat lewt. Of course there are F1 racing MMORPGs as well--and you'll note that in those, one doesn't have to wait one or two months between races like in real life. There's probably some Myers-Briggs STJ type in those forums complaining about how unrealistic it is to get to race four or five times a day instead of once a month, or how it shouldn't be possible to completely destroy the car in a catastrophic crash and be in the next race five minutes later--but hey, those people exist and you have to deal with them.
1)that book is horribly dated and non-canon
2)They do use large scale industrial replicators in ship construction, but no they dont just 3D print a galaxy class ship. We see it enough times through the movies and series that ships are assembled in depressurized hangar facilities with workbees and such.
When I mentioned the replicators it was to point out that construction goes HOW much faster when you can just spit out a diburnium(or whatever) I-Beam via industrial replicators versus the technology involved in large construction in the 30s and 40s?
Actually in several of the "tech manuals" and "blueprints" again non-canon ofc, they have toilets. Now to your power issues with New Romulus.... again we have simple holes in your thinking... if TRIBBLE is THAT critical, then you take a T'liss offline, use its Singularity Core(which should generate ungodly skads of power really) and start making Replicator Rations. Again you make use of horribly dated materials from the 80s. Much of that was good stuff at the time, but was invalidated over time, both by canon and newer non-canon source material.