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Forums > Home› Test Servers› Tribble› Tribble - General Discussion and Feedback

Q: Shield Hardness?

alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
in Tribble - General Discussion and Feedback
I'm a bit confused about the Shield Hardness skill.

Is it an entirely new skill that adds new a new benefit for speccing into it, making them stronger than on holodeck? Or is it something that we now need to spec into to keep the effectiveness we have now on Holodeck?
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
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Comments

  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    A little bit of both.

    You used to be able to get a larger amount of Shield Hardness from Shield Subsystem Power alone, than you currently can. In essence, if you do not invest in this skill, your Shield Hardness from Shield Power will be diminished a bit.

    But even just purchasing a single point of Shield Hardness will, I believe, exceed that old value. And then you can go even higher than you used to be able to.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • alexraptorralexraptorr Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    Allright, thanks for clearing that up. :)
    "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    A little bit of both.

    You used to be able to get a larger amount of Shield Hardness from Shield Subsystem Power alone, than you currently can. In essence, if you do not invest in this skill, your Shield Hardness from Shield Power will be diminished a bit.

    But even just purchasing a single point of Shield Hardness will, I believe, exceed that old value. And then you can go even higher than you used to be able to.

    That's very helpful information, thanks.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • captxpendablecaptxpendable Member Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    It should also be noted that while base hardness went down, base regen went up. I just made a fresh copy on Tribble and without spending any points, my Shields regen went from 299 on live to 449 on Tribble.
    "Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor

    "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -     Agatha Heterodyne
  • pappy02upappy02u Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    Ummm... what is shield hardness?
  • captxpendablecaptxpendable Member Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    pappy02u wrote: »
    Ummm... what is shield hardness?

    It's the amount of damage your shields absorb. On Tribble, with shield power set to 100, you get 20% damage absorption, if you put 3 points into Shield Hardness, it goes up to 40%.
    "Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor

    "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -     Agatha Heterodyne
  • eldritchxeldritchx Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    I wouldn't call it absorb exactly. Shields 'absorb' 90% of incoming damage, 95% if resilient. The damage is then modified by the hardness before being deducted from your shield points. If you had 25% hardness, for example, and took a 10k hit, your non-resilient shield would absorb 9k (the remaining 1k going to your hull), which would be reduced to 6.75k (90x3/4) then deducted from the relevant facing.
  • viox2kviox2k Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    borg sphere says no to your shield hardness, it does not care if 40 or 20
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    For some reason I thought Shield Hardness was also a defense against Shield Penetration (example: self-modulating fire). I guess I was mistaken, though this would be a nice thing to have for shield tanks. This is one of the reasons I would try to max out my Shield Hardness in PVP matches. (EP2S 3, 130 Shield Power, Nanoprobe Field Generator, etc)
    da84303d8bc4080b9860968f634f98682215bbe5.gifv
  • cryptkeeper0cryptkeeper0 Member Posts: 989 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    For some reason I thought Shield Hardness was also a defense against Shield Penetration (example: self-modulating fire). I guess I was mistaken, though this would be a nice thing to have for shield tanks. This is one of the reasons I would try to max out my Shield Hardness in PVP matches. (EP2S 3, 130 Shield Power, Nanoprobe Field Generator, etc)

    I think if they ever make a armor slot, the armor consoles should be changed to either a shield penetration resistance or -crit severity to hull. If the latter I think science should get a console about that. Or even better switch the weird hull Regen console effect and give that console the penetration resistance.
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    I think it should absorb it's percentage of damage BEFORE penetration is applied. That would be useful.
  • banatinebanatine Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    samt1996 wrote: »
    I think it should absorb it's percentage of damage BEFORE penetration is applied. That would be useful.

    But... the whole point of shield penetration is that you are ignoring them... why would shield hardness apply to ignored shields?
    Real Temporal Operative: Purchased the Special Temporal Agent pack before it was even officially announced!
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    cryptkeeper0 wrote: »
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    For some reason I thought Shield Hardness was also a defense against Shield Penetration (example: self-modulating fire). I guess I was mistaken, though this would be a nice thing to have for shield tanks. This is one of the reasons I would try to max out my Shield Hardness in PVP matches. (EP2S 3, 130 Shield Power, Nanoprobe Field Generator, etc)

    I think if they ever make a armor slot, the armor consoles should be changed to either a shield penetration resistance or -crit severity to hull. If the latter I think science should get a console about that. Or even better switch the weird hull Regen console effect and give that console the penetration resistance.

    I would love that because Shield Tanks (heck shields in general) aren't viable anymore. :(
    da84303d8bc4080b9860968f634f98682215bbe5.gifv
  • tancrediivtancrediiv Member Posts: 728 Arc User
    Shields are just an extra health pool with slightly different rules and buffs.
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  • preikopreiko Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Shield hardness, very difficult Topic ... i don´t get it either
    In Game Tooltip
    This skill increasses the amount of incoming damage negated by your shields.

    By Default, Shields negate 0.2% of the damage that they prevent from
    reaching your Hull per Point of Shield System Power currently allocated.
    Every point of Shield Hardness skill will increase the benefit you gain from
    Shield Subsystem Power as it pertains to negating blocked by 1%.
    Shield Properties
    Covariant Shield Array - 90% Damage Absorption - 10% Bleedthrough
    Standard Shield Array - 90% Damage Absorption - 10% Bleedthrough
    Regenerative Shield Array - 90% Damage Absorption - 10% Bleedthrough
    Resilient Shield 95% Damage Absorption - 5% Bleedthrough

    The Question:
    After putting 100 Points in Shield Hardness (125 Shield Subsystem)
    does it look like this (give or take).
    Covariant Shield Array - 95% Damage Absorption - 5% Bleedthrough
    Standard Shield Array - 95% Damage Absorption - 5% Bleedthrough
    Regenerative Shield Array - 95% Damage Absorption - 5% Bleedthrough
    Resilient Shield 97.5% Damage Absorption - 2.5% Bleedthrough
    ??? correct ??? / ??? wrong ???

    Or is it about this Damage Reduction formula:
    Higher shield power also improves shield resistance,
    from 4.2% shield resistance at 15 power,
    to 36.4 percent resistance at 130 power,
    according to the formula
    ( Shield Power/357.12 )

    by the way: - no longer the case, the Patches got rid of it
    R&D and Random drops of Graviton Deflector Array grant
    + Shield Hardness
    Mk II = 5
    Mk XIV =20
    Post edited by preiko on
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    I think your shield descriptions are already wrong.

    Shields work like this:

    The bleedthrough value goes directly to your hull. Your shields do nothing to affect that damage any further (normally at least).
    So, if you have no shield hardness at all, it goes like this:
    100 Damage come in. You got 10 % bleedthrough: 10 points get subtracted from your hull, 90 points from your shields.
    As I understand it, a resilient shield does two things. The bleedthrough is only 5 %, and 5 % of the total damage is simply ignored. So, if 100 damage go in, 5 go to your hull, 90 to your shields. 5 go nowhere.


    Shield Damage Reduction affects how much damage your shields actually take.
    So, let's say you have 20 % shield damage reduction, 10 % bleedthrough. What happens now is:
    100 damage go in. 10 damage to your hull. 90 * 0.80 damage go to your shields, so 72 damage. Total damage taken.


    Now, about your shield power and the shield hardness skill. The shield hardness skill affects how much damage reduction you actually get from shield power. It's not a separate value, it interacts with what you get from shield power. WIthout taking any point in the skill, that value is now a little lower than currently on Holodeck, with taking just one rank, it will be higher.
    What the exact value can be derived from the tooltip. I don't know without looking on Tribble myself.



    Maybe it's unfortunate that the Shield Hardness skill and Shield Hardness are actually not the same thing. Maybe it should also be called "Shield Hardness Expertise" or something like that.




    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    So, if you have no shield hardness at all, it goes like this:
    100 Damage come in. You got 10 % bleedthrough: 10 points get subtracted from your hull, 90 points from your shields.
    As I understand it, a resilient shield does two things. The bleedthrough is only 5 %, and 5 % of the total damage is simply ignored. So, if 100 damage go in, 5 go to your hull, 90 to your shields. 5 go nowhere.

    Correct so far!
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    Shield Damage Reduction affects how much damage your shields actually take.
    So, let's say you have 20 % shield damage reduction, 10 % bleedthrough. What happens now is:
    100 damage go in. 10 damage to your hull. 90 * 0.80 damage go to your shields, so 72 damage. Total damage taken.

    The concept you've outlined here is absolutely correct, but I'm not certain that the math is accurate. Would need to dig into it a bit more, which I'll do and then check back here to confirm.
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    Now, about your shield power and the shield hardness skill. The shield hardness skill affects how much damage reduction you actually get from shield power. It's not a separate value, it interacts with what you get from shield power. WIthout taking any point in the skill, that value is now a little lower than currently on Holodeck, with taking just one rank, it will be higher.
    What the exact value can be derived from the tooltip. I don't know without looking on Tribble myself.

    Again, correct.
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    Maybe it's unfortunate that the Shield Hardness skill and Shield Hardness are actually not the same thing. Maybe it should also be called "Shield Hardness Expertise" or something like that.

    Hmm, not a bad idea. I'll think about it.

    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • preikopreiko Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    I think your shield descriptions are already wrong.

    Shields work like this:

    The bleedthrough value goes directly to your hull. Your shields do nothing to affect that damage any further (normally at least).
    So, if you have no shield hardness at all, it goes like this:
    100 Damage come in. You got 10 % bleedthrough: 10 points get subtracted from your hull, 90 points from your shields.
    As I understand it, a resilient shield does two things. The bleedthrough is only 5 %, and 5 % of the total damage is simply ignored. So, if 100 damage go in, 5 go to your hull, 90 to your shields. 5 go nowhere.

    Shield Damage Reduction affects how much damage your shields actually take.
    So, let's say you have 20 % shield damage reduction, 10 % bleedthrough. What happens now is:
    100 damage go in. 10 damage to your hull. 90 * 0.80 damage go to your shields, so 72 damage. Total damage taken.

    Now, about your shield power and the shield hardness skill. The shield hardness skill affects how much damage reduction you actually get from shield power. It's not a separate value, it interacts with what you get from shield power. WIthout taking any point in the skill, that value is now a little lower than currently on Holodeck, with taking just one rank, it will be higher.
    What the exact value can be derived from the tooltip. I don't know without looking on Tribble myself.

    Maybe it's unfortunate that the Shield Hardness skill and Shield Hardness are actually not the same thing. Maybe it should also be called "Shield Hardness Expertise" or something like that.

    Thank you very much, that helps me alot.
    Have a nice Day
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    So, if you have no shield hardness at all, it goes like this:
    100 Damage come in. You got 10 % bleedthrough: 10 points get subtracted from your hull, 90 points from your shields.
    As I understand it, a resilient shield does two things. The bleedthrough is only 5 %, and 5 % of the total damage is simply ignored. So, if 100 damage go in, 5 go to your hull, 90 to your shields. 5 go nowhere.

    Correct so far!
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    Shield Damage Reduction affects how much damage your shields actually take.
    So, let's say you have 20 % shield damage reduction, 10 % bleedthrough. What happens now is:
    100 damage go in. 10 damage to your hull. 90 * 0.80 damage go to your shields, so 72 damage. Total damage taken.

    The concept you've outlined here is absolutely correct, but I'm not certain that the math is accurate. Would need to dig into it a bit more, which I'll do and then check back here to confirm.
    Oh, that would be nice.

    It's also a bit unclear what happens with torpedoes and the innate kinetic resistance, and what happens when more damage is applied to your shields than you actually have. The "myth" is that even a single point of shields means your torpedoes do only inflict 25 % of their damage to hull, but I seem to remember some dev (maybe even use, maybe someone else) explaining this is not how it works.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    The concept you've outlined here is absolutely correct, but I'm not certain that the math is accurate. Would need to dig into it a bit more, which I'll do and then check back here to confirm.
    Any news? ;)
    I think the math should be accurate enough, but I only half-way remember it from some forum posts many years ago - I believe it still was with snix in your role even, if you know/remember that time. I think a fellow player, BigRedJedi, wrote out the details...

    Mustrum "Blast from the Past" Ridcully
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2016
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    A little bit of both.

    You used to be able to get a larger amount of Shield Hardness from Shield Subsystem Power alone, than you currently can. In essence, if you do not invest in this skill, your Shield Hardness from Shield Power will be diminished a bit.

    But even just purchasing a single point of Shield Hardness will, I believe, exceed that old value. And then you can go even higher than you used to be able to.

    So just for clarity purposes. Is there any other place where not investing in a skill diminish things a bit? Aux and shield power effect both got diminished. Was there any similar adjustment done with weapon power since there are now 2 penetration skills on the tac tree? Was there an engine power effect adjustment?

    I just hope there was some across the board adjustments to power levels and effect and not just to the two ones that happen to have to do with science.
  • captxpendablecaptxpendable Member Posts: 127 Arc User
    lucho80 wrote: »
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    A little bit of both.

    You used to be able to get a larger amount of Shield Hardness from Shield Subsystem Power alone, than you currently can. In essence, if you do not invest in this skill, your Shield Hardness from Shield Power will be diminished a bit.

    But even just purchasing a single point of Shield Hardness will, I believe, exceed that old value. And then you can go even higher than you used to be able to.

    So just for clarity purposes. Is there any other place where not investing in a skill diminish things a bit? Aux and shield power effect both got diminished. Was there any similar adjustment done with weapon power since there are now 2 penetration skills on the tac tree? Was there an engine power effect adjustment?

    I just hope there was some across the board adjustments to power levels and effect and not just to the two ones that happen to have to do with science.
    In the livestream he said that the base range drop-off for beams would be slightly worse (while also being slightly better for cannons), so if that's important to you, you'd want to to put a point into that.

    I think it's also worth noting that NPCs are getting adjusted too. From a reply to me from Borticus
    With extremely few exceptions, NPCs have no skills.

    What you'll actually see from them as a result of this revamp, is that they will get less benefit from Shield Power and slightly more benefit from Aux Power. Also slightly more damage drop-off on their beam weapons, and slightly less for their cannons.

    Basically, any core mechanic changes we've made will impact NPC performance. But Skill changes almost never will.
    "Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor

    "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -     Agatha Heterodyne
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    captxpendable wrote: »
    In the livestream he said that the base range drop-off for beams would be slightly worse (while also being slightly better for cannons), so if that's important to you, you'd want to to put a point into that.

    Yeah, so totally not the same. I was talking power level effectiveness of weapons and engines power.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    So, if you have no shield hardness at all, it goes like this:
    100 Damage come in. You got 10 % bleedthrough: 10 points get subtracted from your hull, 90 points from your shields.
    As I understand it, a resilient shield does two things. The bleedthrough is only 5 %, and 5 % of the total damage is simply ignored. So, if 100 damage go in, 5 go to your hull, 90 to your shields. 5 go nowhere.

    Correct so far!
    mustrumridcully0 wrote: »
    Shield Damage Reduction affects how much damage your shields actually take.
    So, let's say you have 20 % shield damage reduction, 10 % bleedthrough. What happens now is:
    100 damage go in. 10 damage to your hull. 90 * 0.80 damage go to your shields, so 72 damage. Total damage taken.

    The concept you've outlined here is absolutely correct, but I'm not certain that the math is accurate. Would need to dig into it a bit more, which I'll do and then check back here to confirm.
    Oh, that would be nice.

    It's also a bit unclear what happens with torpedoes and the innate kinetic resistance, and what happens when more damage is applied to your shields than you actually have. The "myth" is that even a single point of shields means your torpedoes do only inflict 25 % of their damage to hull, but I seem to remember some dev (maybe even use, maybe someone else) explaining this is not how it works.

    IIRC, 75% of kinetic damage that hit shields is ignored. The remaining 25% then follow the shield rules that you outlined, although I cannot remember if the shield hardness portion came into play at the 75% part or the remaining 25% part (i.e. shield hardness helped to ignore more kinetic damage beyond the initial 75%, or if shield hardness rules applied to the remaining 25% damage that's left to be calculated).
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
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  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    lucho80 wrote: »
    So just for clarity purposes. Is there any other place where not investing in a skill diminish things a bit? Aux and shield power effect both got diminished. Was there any similar adjustment done with weapon power since there are now 2 penetration skills on the tac tree? Was there an engine power effect adjustment?

    No adjustments were made to Weapon Power.

    Engine Power will benefit Speed and Turn ever-so-slightly less on T5/T6 ships, and more on all lower-tier vessels. And I mean on the magnitude of ~0.002% or so. It might even be lost in rounding before it hits the UI.

    You'll want to put 1 Point into both Shield Hardness and Shield Regen, in order to bridge the performance gap that will result from Shield Power changes (or, accept the slight decrease in performance, and spend those points elsewhere).

    The re-scale of Aux Power can't be directly accounted for by purchasing any Skills. Especially since it has different performance impacts depending upon your current Aux (more benefit than before @ <100, and less than before @ >100).

    Outside of subsystem power, the only mechanical change that is occurring is Weapon Damage Drop-Off, which got slightly worse for beams and better for cannons. If you are a Beam user, you may wish to put 1 point into Long-Range Targeting in order to make up that performance difference.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • neok182neok182 Member Posts: 551 Arc User
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    Outside of subsystem power, the only mechanical change that is occurring is Weapon Damage Drop-Off, which got slightly worse for beams and better for cannons. If you are a Beam user, you may wish to put 1 point into Long-Range Targeting in order to make up that performance difference.

    Absolutely no one is putting only one point into Long-Range Targeting. ;-)

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    yeah, targeting definitely seems worth 2 for most.
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  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    neok182 wrote: »
    Absolutely no one is putting only one point into Long-Range Targeting. ;-)

    Amen.

  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    neok182 wrote: »
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    Outside of subsystem power, the only mechanical change that is occurring is Weapon Damage Drop-Off, which got slightly worse for beams and better for cannons. If you are a Beam user, you may wish to put 1 point into Long-Range Targeting in order to make up that performance difference.

    Absolutely no one is putting only one point into Long-Range Targeting. ;-)

    I could see a dedicated torpedo captain ignoring it.
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  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    dragonsbrethren wrote: »
    neok182 wrote: »
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    Outside of subsystem power, the only mechanical change that is occurring is Weapon Damage Drop-Off, which got slightly worse for beams and better for cannons. If you are a Beam user, you may wish to put 1 point into Long-Range Targeting in order to make up that performance difference.

    Absolutely no one is putting only one point into Long-Range Targeting. ;-)

    I could see a dedicated torpedo captain ignoring it.

    Ignoring what? I don't see what you're talking about ;)

    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
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