Could someone please post an example of a couple effects, 1 damage-based and 1 not damage-based, where this modifier change hurts the build significantly? I'd like to see the before and after calculations to really see what's going on. I see modifiers changing by a loss of .125 @ 175 Aux, yet me and my brain have never understood STO damage and non-damage math when dealing with modifiers like this.
Thanks!
Frankly, the loss of damage from Aux being changed is pretty much offset by the gain in skill points.
Could someone please post an example of a couple effects, 1 damage-based and 1 not damage-based, where this modifier change hurts the build significantly? I'd like to see the before and after calculations to really see what's going on. I see modifiers changing by a loss of .125 @ 175 Aux, yet me and my brain have never understood STO damage and non-damage math when dealing with modifiers like this.
Thanks!
I think that will be much easier if the fix is in. Because then you can just try and compare.
The damage modifiers do not all stack in the most straightforward ways and any mock calculation would often be off.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Here is the thing, in order to compare min/max builds in Tribble vs Holodeck, some ship builds will need to be tweaked. The reputation deflectors have all changed so the best deflector has changed in a lot of cases.
I want to know why they are making each point of aux power over 100 weaker than each point under 100
First of all, the bonus from each point of Aux is uniform, regardless if that point is above or below the 100 mark. What this changed was the end-points of an overall chart.
----snip
In summary... this change wasn't orchestrated as a means of "nerfing Science," but rather as a way to move more of the game's underlying mechanics into an easier-to-understand format. That fact that it simultaneously raises the baseline effectiveness of low-Aux builds is an accepted side effect, rather than being a goal that we set out to meet.
I have no problem with the power scaling being uniform. But, I guess most of the confusion comes from the patch notes that listed it being rescaled as I mentioned in the first place.
Probably would have been less unclear if it had also been stated in those notes that it was done to make the power levels give the uniform scaling like you mentioned in the chart above.
I still stand by my weapon power argument. If that uniform is the intended case, which is a good thing, is weapon power also using the same uniform scale? As people mentioned, right now it only looks like a hit to science builds.
Twilight, Particle Physicist that stole the ship.
Original Signup date: August 4, 2008
LTS since Pre-Order
Could someone please post an example of a couple effects, 1 damage-based and 1 not damage-based, where this modifier change hurts the build significantly? I'd like to see the before and after calculations to really see what's going on. I see modifiers changing by a loss of .125 @ 175 Aux, yet me and my brain have never understood STO damage and non-damage math when dealing with modifiers like this.
Thanks!
I think that will be much easier if the fix is in. Because then you can just try and compare.
The damage modifiers do not all stack in the most straightforward ways and any mock calculation would often be off.
I guess what I'm asking is this...if at full PartGens and 100 Aux Power with no modifiers from gear or traits, a Grav Well could do (throwing a number out here) 800 damage per second, how would the power modifier affect it once you get to 125 or 175?
For 175 Aux, using the current formula, would I just multiply 800 by 1.375? Or is it more complicated than that?
(NOTE: I'm just throwing the number 800 out there. I have no clue what a Grav Well unmodified except for full PartGens and 100 Aux Power actually is.)
I want to know why they are making each point of aux power over 100 weaker than each point under 100
First of all, the bonus from each point of Aux is uniform, regardless if that point is above or below the 100 mark. What this changed was the end-points of an overall chart.
Here's a visual representation:
As to the "why" of the change... the primary reasons are readability, predictability, and simplification of mechanics for the sake of player understanding.
The old scaling calculation was:
(((AuxPwr*.5)/75)+.333)
Can you make sense of that at a glance? What it resulted in a bonus that scaled as such:
0 pwr = .333333
25 pwr = .5
50 pwr = .666667
75 pwr = .833333
100 pwr = 1
125 pwr = 1.16667
Or, stated another way, the base modifier from Aux was 0.333333 and every 1 Point of AuxPwr granted a multiplier of 0.006667... or translated yet more:
Each point of AuxPwr gave 2/3 of 1% bonus above baseline effectiveness.
I dunno about you, but attempting calculations that include "2/3" in my head isn't easy.
Under the newly updated calculation, it could instead be described as:
Each point of AuxPwr gives a 1/2 of 1% bonus above baseline effectiveness.
0.5, or "half" -- that's really easy to use in napkin math.
Additionally, while the latter is a weaker bonus per point, that "baseline effectiveness" was also boosted by ~50% of its previous value (0.5, up from 0.33333).
In summary... this change wasn't orchestrated as a means of "nerfing Science," but rather as a way to move more of the game's underlying mechanics into an easier-to-understand format. That fact that it simultaneously raises the baseline effectiveness of low-Aux builds is an accepted side effect, rather than being a goal that we set out to meet.
Just to clarify, if the change is extended to the current max Aux of 145 (+10 from subspace obelisk rift warp core and +10 from enhanced plasma manifold), the net effect is a drop from 1.3 down to 1.225, or -.075. If this is really a simple multiplier to damage, that is a 7.5% nerf on the absolute max (though likely no one runs Aux that high).
Of course, if the skill points from epic Mk XIV gear can negate this, there are no problems at all. Really, the gain from skill points could offset the Aux drop and help sci more, assuming they spec into science skill points. It is possible that this will help these captains compared to a Tac or Eng running high Aux power (from leech, supremecy, or Eng powers) who may not be specced into control, drain, or exotic particle generators.
So weapon power at 125 compared to 100 power will do (.02*(125-50)+1)/(.02*(100-50)+1) - 1 = 250%/200% - 1 = 25% more damage.
Assuming I am interpreting Bort's formula correctly, Aux at 125 power compared to 100 power would only do 12.5% more damage.
My math could be wrong, and this assumes no other bonuses. Weapons have multiple layers of "categories" of damage bonuses, so it is really hard to compare.
Slightly off topic but do the other power levels scale the same way? Particularly weapon power?
Weapons power is a multiplier of power/50; so having 50 power is a 1x multiplier, 100 is a 2x multiplier, 125 is a 2.5x multiplier, and etc. For the life of me I have no idea how engine power works. Shield power currently grants resist at power/357.12 = % resist (where 50 power = 14% resist) and might be affecting regeneration, on tribble it should now be power/500 to start, where 50 power = 10% resist, but the Shield Hardness stat adjusts that up to power/250 = shield resist (where 50 power would thus = 20% resist)
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
People are over complicating the matter. All I want to know is when I copy my character over to Tribble and max out Part Gen in the new skill tree what am I going to see compared to my Holodeck character:
(A) No change in damage = Not a nerf
(B) A net loss in damage = A nerf, intended or not
(C) A net gain in damage = A buff, intended or not
Just to clarify, if the change is extended to the current max Aux of 145 (+10 from subspace obelisk rift warp core and +10 from enhanced plasma manifold), the net effect is a drop from 1.3 down to 1.225, or -.075. If this is really a simple multiplier to damage, that is a 7.5% nerf on the absolute max (though likely no one runs Aux that high).
You do know Aux goes even higher. You forgot about OSS3.
People are over complicating the matter. All I want to know is when I copy my character over to Tribble and max out Part Gen in the new skill tree what am I going to see compared to my Holodeck character:
(A) No change in damage = Not a nerf
(B) A net loss in damage = A nerf, intended or not
(C) A net gain in damage = A buff, intended or not
B because part gens got 1 extra skill point only and the Aux scaling got slightly cut down on the high end.
If the goal is understanding and not a nerf.. Why not auxpower/100.
0 power 0 damage (off-line) 1% power 1%dammage (drained) 25% power 25%dammage (set minimum) 125% power. 125% dammage (set maximum)
Math is easy. Totaly explainable It's not a nerf at high end,and it has the added benefit of making drains for aux actually worth using. Where now they are useless because the baseline is .5 . even in holodeck with a .3 baseline aux drains are only worth using if you off-line aux.
The Chang to .5 baseline maxes target aux and drains weak. It's a huge drain nerf as is. Ditch it and scale at 1%.
To illustrate.. Target is flying along at neutral power 50 to all systems. You have good flow caps and a sci ship. So your target system drains 49. Not enough to off-line but a good drain.
Target weapons.. The enemy's beams go to 2% dammage.
Target shields.. The enemy's shields get 0% hardness and stop regenerating.
Target engines. The enemy pretty much stops and stops turning.
Target aux.. Aux powers still run at 51%.
This makes target aux useless. Nerfed from 30%that it was before that was already pretty bad.
If the goal is understanding and not a nerf.. Why not...
Because the goal IS (or at least includes) a nerf to people running over 100.
The incentive is pretty clear to take points that are carrying you over 100 and put them somewhere else to discourage or very lightly penalize people that continue to stack and stack and stack. There's a general 'slap down extreme min/maxing' vibe all over this new system. Given the amount of diminishing returns used throughout the game, that this formula is still linear at all is kind of amazing.
I always wonder if Engine shouldn't affect a few more powers... There aren't many that would really thematically fit, but Eject Warp Plasma or Attack Patterns could kinda make sense...
Wow. That would be extremely cool and flavorful. Big thumbs up!
I always wonder if Engine shouldn't affect a few more powers... There aren't many that would really thematically fit, but Eject Warp Plasma or Attack Patterns could kinda make sense...
Wow. That would be extremely cool and flavorful. Big thumbs up!
Yeah, but probably out of scope for the skill revamp.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
There's a general 'slap down extreme min/maxing' vibe all over this new system.
Strange, speaking as a generalist I have the complete opposite reaction to the new skill system. The old system already provides the same incentive to generalize that this one dose (an extra 15 points in anything is never going to be noticeable).
To me it looks designed to reward min/maxers, isn't that what the ultimate abilities are there to tempt people to do? Waist points on +15 point skill boosts in order to unlock a shiny new ability?
I'm thinking that I have misunderstood your intent with that statement though Nikeix, you meant the aux change is to discourage overspecialized ship builds maybe? If so your right, this discourages overspecializing in science. We are already discouraged from over specializing in tanking due to the resistance cap. Never seen anything discourage overspecialization in conventional damage though, not in this system or the old.
I am looking forward to see how much I lose from my control, flow, and exotic damage builds when they re-enable character copy. I have a bad feeling about them. I hope Bort's 'Lose nothing' promise rings true, but I just cant believe its going to be true unless the character copy proves it.
Thanks very much to Bort for the data BTW. Even if I don't ultimately like the changes, the communication is very much appreciated.
Did some quick parses of Tau Dewa patrols. I won't bother posting them, it was in no way a scientific test. One thing I did notice, though, is that Gravity Well I and Destablizing Resonance Beam III have switched positions in every patrol. DRB3 consistently outdamages GW1 on Holodeck, it's the opposite on Tribble. A result of the normalization, I assume, but I figured I'd mention it in case something is wrong.
(As a side note, I was able to replicate my Sci's entirely too balanced tree with 8 points left over. Survivability feels a bit lower on Tribble, but I have plenty of points to put more into defense if I wanted to.)
Did some quick parses of Tau Dewa patrols. I won't bother posting them, it was in no way a scientific test. One thing I did notice, though, is that Gravity Well I and Destablizing Resonance Beam III have switched positions in every patrol. DRB3 consistently outdamages GW1 on Holodeck, it's the opposite on Tribble. A result of the normalization, I assume, but I figured I'd mention it in case something is wrong.
(As a side note, I was able to replicate my Sci's entirely too balanced tree with 8 points left over. Survivability feels a bit lower on Tribble, but I have plenty of points to put more into defense if I wanted to.)
Did you use DRB and GW at the same time or separate? I ask because GW can now cause a -20 damage resistance to affected targets. OR, did you just look at the power info? I'll be getting on tribble to test also in a bit.
If damage from Exotic Particle Generator builds is truly taking that much of a hit, something needs to get rebalanced in the Aux or EPG equations. Otherwise, "players lose nothing" is an empty "promise" as this may hurt a complete build type to the point of being useless.
I gotta add my voice the quire on this one, there is no need to change the aux power scale to make things more understandable, all the people who care about the math can work with thirds, and those that don't aren't gonna be able to work with halves any easier. Making it a pointless nerf on a class that is already undermatched in pve.
I will say I'm very glad they are combining the sci abilities in to 3 catagories, and it is possible that the boost from things like insulators going to insulators and flow caps in deflectors/consoles could boost many abilities back up, but it wont help exotic damage/partGens at all.
I really hope they reconsider this one, because I generally support the skill redesign.
I don't know if its an aux-scaling bug, a partgen bug, or strait up rebar to the teeth nerf, but Destabilizing Resonanace Beam and the plasma cloud of the Particle Emissions Torpedos took a huge hit.
Replicating my skills as best as I could, and most things in the stats window of the ship were within a few points. I did have a few more in aux power level than holodeck. I have 407 partgens on holodeck, and it appears I all my stuff converted over to the same... they don't have it in the stats window anymore and I crashed before I was done adding it all up.
According to the tooltips while sitting in system space:
Holodeck --> Tribble
DRB2: 1823.3 --> 1137.1
That's a huge 686.2 per second damage loss to the best science skill I have.
Holodeck --> Tribble
PEP Plamsa cloud: 1522.1 --> 1123.8
That's a 398.3 per second damage loss to one of the top damaging things on my ship.
And that's when I am just sitting there, when I am powered up actually buffing, that lose will translate into an even bigger loss. So like I said at the top, something is still disconnected, the equation was not fixed for them, or they straight up nerfed science... again.
Twilight, Particle Physicist that stole the ship.
Original Signup date: August 4, 2008
LTS since Pre-Order
Did some quick parses of Tau Dewa patrols. I won't bother posting them, it was in no way a scientific test. One thing I did notice, though, is that Gravity Well I and Destablizing Resonance Beam III have switched positions in every patrol. DRB3 consistently outdamages GW1 on Holodeck, it's the opposite on Tribble. A result of the normalization, I assume, but I figured I'd mention it in case something is wrong.
(As a side note, I was able to replicate my Sci's entirely too balanced tree with 8 points left over. Survivability feels a bit lower on Tribble, but I have plenty of points to put more into defense if I wanted to.)
After a lot of playing around, I was able to duplicate my sci damage but it took altering my science consoles and becoming quite squishy (I died in Japora on normal - ouch). I had to sacrifice in science (mostly shields) to boost tactical to boost science. I also lost some points in engineering which accounts for the squishiness. The new Research Lab consoles no longer boost the plasma emission torpedo. I had to go back to the old Romulan Embassy consoles to bring them back up. The strange thing about that is that the Research Lab consoles on Holodeck are doing what the Embassy consoles are on Tribble. The embassy consoles explicitly boost plasma-based exotic damage. PartGens is no longer boosting the emission clouds at all that I can tell. The Neutronic and the Gravimetric were woefully under performing.
I'm curious, do you use any of the sciency exotic torpedoes? I had to give up a lot of points to make up for a lack of EPG boost by placing them in actual torpedo points (9 point equivalent vs 6 or all 3 new slots vs 2) and into armor penetration and shield penetration where I never (knowingly) had anything there before besides traits and command tree. Now, if there is a disconnect from the exotic torpedo procs and EPG and it is fixed, this could mean that my build got a good buff. I'm not thinking that's how it will pan out.
Comments
Frankly, the loss of damage from Aux being changed is pretty much offset by the gain in skill points.
The damage modifiers do not all stack in the most straightforward ways and any mock calculation would often be off.
I have no problem with the power scaling being uniform. But, I guess most of the confusion comes from the patch notes that listed it being rescaled as I mentioned in the first place.
Probably would have been less unclear if it had also been stated in those notes that it was done to make the power levels give the uniform scaling like you mentioned in the chart above.
I still stand by my weapon power argument. If that uniform is the intended case, which is a good thing, is weapon power also using the same uniform scale? As people mentioned, right now it only looks like a hit to science builds.
Twilight, Particle Physicist that stole the ship.
Original Signup date: August 4, 2008
LTS since Pre-Order
Not when you already had maxed particle generators. The new skill tree is only a gain of 1 point, which is not a lot.
Twilight, Particle Physicist that stole the ship.
Original Signup date: August 4, 2008
LTS since Pre-Order
I guess what I'm asking is this...if at full PartGens and 100 Aux Power with no modifiers from gear or traits, a Grav Well could do (throwing a number out here) 800 damage per second, how would the power modifier affect it once you get to 125 or 175?
For 175 Aux, using the current formula, would I just multiply 800 by 1.375? Or is it more complicated than that?
(NOTE: I'm just throwing the number 800 out there. I have no clue what a Grav Well unmodified except for full PartGens and 100 Aux Power actually is.)
Just to clarify, if the change is extended to the current max Aux of 145 (+10 from subspace obelisk rift warp core and +10 from enhanced plasma manifold), the net effect is a drop from 1.3 down to 1.225, or -.075. If this is really a simple multiplier to damage, that is a 7.5% nerf on the absolute max (though likely no one runs Aux that high).
Of course, if the skill points from epic Mk XIV gear can negate this, there are no problems at all. Really, the gain from skill points could offset the Aux drop and help sci more, assuming they spec into science skill points. It is possible that this will help these captains compared to a Tac or Eng running high Aux power (from leech, supremecy, or Eng powers) who may not be specced into control, drain, or exotic particle generators.
^ This!!!!
Twilight, Particle Physicist that stole the ship.
Original Signup date: August 4, 2008
LTS since Pre-Order
From the wiki:
If a player has 50 power in this subsystem it will allow each of your ships energy weapons to cause 100% of their natural DPS. Every additional point of power applied to this subsystem will increase overall DPS by 2% per weapon. As an example, running 100 weapons power will yield a 100% bonus to weapon DPS giving an overall amount of 200% of the energy weapons base damage.
So weapon power at 125 compared to 100 power will do (.02*(125-50)+1)/(.02*(100-50)+1) - 1 = 250%/200% - 1 = 25% more damage.
Assuming I am interpreting Bort's formula correctly, Aux at 125 power compared to 100 power would only do 12.5% more damage.
My math could be wrong, and this assumes no other bonuses. Weapons have multiple layers of "categories" of damage bonuses, so it is really hard to compare.
Weapons power is a multiplier of power/50; so having 50 power is a 1x multiplier, 100 is a 2x multiplier, 125 is a 2.5x multiplier, and etc. For the life of me I have no idea how engine power works. Shield power currently grants resist at power/357.12 = % resist (where 50 power = 14% resist) and might be affecting regeneration, on tribble it should now be power/500 to start, where 50 power = 10% resist, but the Shield Hardness stat adjusts that up to power/250 = shield resist (where 50 power would thus = 20% resist)
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
(A) No change in damage = Not a nerf
(B) A net loss in damage = A nerf, intended or not
(C) A net gain in damage = A buff, intended or not
You do know Aux goes even higher. You forgot about OSS3.
B because part gens got 1 extra skill point only and the Aux scaling got slightly cut down on the high end.
0 power 0 damage (off-line)
1% power 1%dammage (drained)
25% power 25%dammage (set minimum)
125% power. 125% dammage (set maximum)
Math is easy. Totaly explainable It's not a nerf at high end,and it has the added benefit of making drains for aux actually worth using. Where now they are useless because the baseline is .5 . even in holodeck with a .3 baseline aux drains are only worth using if you off-line aux.
The Chang to .5 baseline maxes target aux and drains weak. It's a huge drain nerf as is. Ditch it and scale at 1%.
Target weapons.. The enemy's beams go to 2% dammage.
Target shields.. The enemy's shields get 0% hardness and stop regenerating.
Target engines. The enemy pretty much stops and stops turning.
Target aux.. Aux powers still run at 51%.
This makes target aux useless. Nerfed from 30%that it was before that was already pretty bad.
Because the goal IS (or at least includes) a nerf to people running over 100.
The incentive is pretty clear to take points that are carrying you over 100 and put them somewhere else to discourage or very lightly penalize people that continue to stack and stack and stack. There's a general 'slap down extreme min/maxing' vibe all over this new system. Given the amount of diminishing returns used throughout the game, that this formula is still linear at all is kind of amazing.
Wow. That would be extremely cool and flavorful. Big thumbs up!
Strange, speaking as a generalist I have the complete opposite reaction to the new skill system. The old system already provides the same incentive to generalize that this one dose (an extra 15 points in anything is never going to be noticeable).
To me it looks designed to reward min/maxers, isn't that what the ultimate abilities are there to tempt people to do? Waist points on +15 point skill boosts in order to unlock a shiny new ability?
I'm thinking that I have misunderstood your intent with that statement though Nikeix, you meant the aux change is to discourage overspecialized ship builds maybe? If so your right, this discourages overspecializing in science. We are already discouraged from over specializing in tanking due to the resistance cap. Never seen anything discourage overspecialization in conventional damage though, not in this system or the old.
I am looking forward to see how much I lose from my control, flow, and exotic damage builds when they re-enable character copy. I have a bad feeling about them. I hope Bort's 'Lose nothing' promise rings true, but I just cant believe its going to be true unless the character copy proves it.
Thanks very much to Bort for the data BTW. Even if I don't ultimately like the changes, the communication is very much appreciated.
Considering the already prevalent population of Tacs in the game, devaluing Science even more shouldn't be an option.
Whats the point of targeting AUX if you are at most going to drop the heals by a few points, and never below 50%.
(As a side note, I was able to replicate my Sci's entirely too balanced tree with 8 points left over. Survivability feels a bit lower on Tribble, but I have plenty of points to put more into defense if I wanted to.)
Did you use DRB and GW at the same time or separate? I ask because GW can now cause a -20 damage resistance to affected targets. OR, did you just look at the power info? I'll be getting on tribble to test also in a bit.
I usually fire DRB into a Grav Well, unless my ability cooldowns get really out of sync.
I will say I'm very glad they are combining the sci abilities in to 3 catagories, and it is possible that the boost from things like insulators going to insulators and flow caps in deflectors/consoles could boost many abilities back up, but it wont help exotic damage/partGens at all.
I really hope they reconsider this one, because I generally support the skill redesign.
Replicating my skills as best as I could, and most things in the stats window of the ship were within a few points. I did have a few more in aux power level than holodeck. I have 407 partgens on holodeck, and it appears I all my stuff converted over to the same... they don't have it in the stats window anymore and I crashed before I was done adding it all up.
According to the tooltips while sitting in system space:
Holodeck --> Tribble
DRB2: 1823.3 --> 1137.1
That's a huge 686.2 per second damage loss to the best science skill I have.
Holodeck --> Tribble
PEP Plamsa cloud: 1522.1 --> 1123.8
That's a 398.3 per second damage loss to one of the top damaging things on my ship.
And that's when I am just sitting there, when I am powered up actually buffing, that lose will translate into an even bigger loss. So like I said at the top, something is still disconnected, the equation was not fixed for them, or they straight up nerfed science... again.
Twilight, Particle Physicist that stole the ship.
Original Signup date: August 4, 2008
LTS since Pre-Order
After a lot of playing around, I was able to duplicate my sci damage but it took altering my science consoles and becoming quite squishy (I died in Japora on normal - ouch). I had to sacrifice in science (mostly shields) to boost tactical to boost science. I also lost some points in engineering which accounts for the squishiness. The new Research Lab consoles no longer boost the plasma emission torpedo. I had to go back to the old Romulan Embassy consoles to bring them back up. The strange thing about that is that the Research Lab consoles on Holodeck are doing what the Embassy consoles are on Tribble. The embassy consoles explicitly boost plasma-based exotic damage. PartGens is no longer boosting the emission clouds at all that I can tell. The Neutronic and the Gravimetric were woefully under performing.
I'm curious, do you use any of the sciency exotic torpedoes? I had to give up a lot of points to make up for a lack of EPG boost by placing them in actual torpedo points (9 point equivalent vs 6 or all 3 new slots vs 2) and into armor penetration and shield penetration where I never (knowingly) had anything there before besides traits and command tree. Now, if there is a disconnect from the exotic torpedo procs and EPG and it is fixed, this could mean that my build got a good buff. I'm not thinking that's how it will pan out.