Romulans as Romans in Space

gawainviii

A long time ago, there was a brilliant mind who had a wonderful thought. This mind belonged to a man. The man was employed as a writer for Desilu Studio's newest science fiction television series, Star Trek. This man's name was Paul Schneider. Paul wrote a script for Star Trek, inspired by old submarine movies entitled "Balance of Terror". Paul needed a bad-guy for this episode. Paul thought the Klingons were too aggressive to make a good, edge-of-your-seat suspenseful villain for this type of story. What did Paul do? Paul had his wonderful thought, "What if the Romans had achieved space flight?". And the Romulans were born!

Fast forward... and different writers began recycling old material without knowing the origins of that material. Somehow, over time, "Romans in Space" became morphed into "TRIBBLE in Space" complete with their own Gestapo-esque secret police, the Tal Shiar.

This is all fine and good. Storytelling evolves over time, just as the historical Romans did...

What I want to know is:
What would it take for me to convincingly re-brand the Romulan Star Empire as Rome-in-Space, once again, as part of my [RSE] foundry series?

warmaker001b

Balance of Terror provides a good base of what you need for a "Romans In Space" style of the RSE.

The Romulans were extremely aggressive. Spock goes out on the limb to say that if the Romulans were indeed like Vulcans of old, then the Enterprise, the Federation, if it has interest to preserve peace, must seek out the warbird and destroy it to show strength. Because if the Federation didn't do that against the Empire's provocation, then it would invite further transgression.

With the "Balance of Terror" Romulans, to preserve the peace you had to be eager for war.

On the flip side to this, the episode was excellent in providing background for the RSE.

1. We see different frames of mind in that single warbird. The captain had an overeager officer under his command trying to gain favor with friends in the Senate by broadcasting the ship's accomplishments against the Federation, despite his captain forbidding such transmissions for it risked giving away the position of the ship while it was still in enemy space. You then had the captain's friend, the officer with the white hair. He was far more even-handed, did his duty. The other end of the spectrum was the captain himself. A veteran leader, he had grown weary with the Empire's constant warfare, the toll it took on friends lost. Yet he still did his duty to try to accomplish his mission and preserve his ship and crew. A good moment was after one series of the Enterprise's attacks on the ship, the captain ordered that debris be launched out the torpedo tubes to hopefully throw the Enterprise off and to lure it in a trap. Among the debris will be some of the explosives used to self-destruct the warbird as well as the body of the captain's best friend, used to hopefully "sell it" to the Enterprise and lure it in. The captain was pained ordering that but if it preserved the ship and crew, then so be it.

2. I want to repeat again that the TOS-RSE was militarily aggressive. Not TNG-style, cloak and dagger Romulan stuff. The TOS-RSE was warlike and saw weakness as an excuse for military aggression.

3. The Romulans were using Roman style titles.

Now, how you translate the TOS-RSE into STO's era for the Foundry will be interesting.

aliguana

i think Spock said something more like "destroy them with extreme predudice". Which is old Vulcan predudice coming out, methinks.

(long time since i've seen that ep, but it was one of the better ones of TOS)

kodachikuno

As I stated in a few of my rounds with protogoth, the two are not mutually exclusive. If you accept the TNG Era RSE and look back at the TOS episodes they can actually fit in rather well, especially if you factor in the Tal Shiar is much much newer and not as entrenched in seats of power and paranoia yet. As for reversing the extremism seen in TNG and how to accomplish that, frankly Paramount did that for you, Shinzon left one hell of a mess and a power vacuum at the top of the Empire. From the little information we have Donatra was already well on her way to liberalizing some serious parts of the Empire's government, she had supporters and a solid power base. Then Cryptic happened.... and thought them Sela... Getting rid of her and the rest of the BS Cryptic did will be much more difficult if you want to continue to try and gel with the rest of STO's plot. Here again, however, we have opportunity, once she's abducted its canonically stated the warlords re-rose to power, while D'Twerp and crew did their shtick. Its a careful balancing act of writing but one can steer things within the Imperial Remnants believably towards the stated goal.

bltrrn

kodachikuno wrote: »

As I stated in a few of my rounds with protogoth, the two are not mutually exclusive. If you accept the TNG Era RSE and look back at the TOS episodes they can actually fit in rather well, especially if you factor in the Tal Shiar is much much newer and not as entrenched in seats of power and paranoia yet. As for reversing the extremism seen in TNG and how to accomplish that, frankly Paramount did that for you, Shinzon left one hell of a mess and a power vacuum at the top of the Empire. From the little information we have Donatra was already well on her way to liberalizing some serious parts of the Empire's government, she had supporters and a solid power base. Then Cryptic happened.... and thought them Sela... Getting rid of her and the rest of the BS Cryptic did will be much more difficult if you want to continue to try and gel with the rest of STO's plot. Here again, however, we have opportunity, once she's abducted its canonically stated the warlords re-rose to power, while D'Twerp and crew did their shtick. Its a careful balancing act of writing but one can steer things within the Imperial Remnants believably towards the stated goal.

I'll have to agree here, and add that "Romans in space" is filled by the Mirror Fed. factions; to paraphrase Empress Ael "Who the f*** are the Romans?". As for the state of the Star Empire, I'd advise the Warlords to play against each other, in order to forge the best leader, out of the heat of battle and statecraft, while also searching for where and when Donatra is. This is the only way, as of this moment, to match the Republic. The Star Empire lost the Civil War (the sixth or seventh one in Romulan history, if I am not mistaken), but it still can flourish among the Far Stars, perhaps one day returning to the Hearthworlds, in peace and kinship.

bumperthumper

Can you please post a link to the mission in this thread, or even redirect us to another thread in the Foundry section w/in this thread? I would love to play this storyline.

gawainviii

bumperthumper wrote: »

Can you please post a link to the mission in this thread, or even redirect us to another thread in the Foundry section w/in this thread? I would love to play this storyline.

Only the first one is live at the moment. Here's the thread in the Foundry - Mission Database forum; and my Series Concept Development thread for the series, as a whole in the Romulan Discussion forum.

alikain

You do reaslie the is a reason why they change from the militaristic civilization, to what you so called cloak and dagger (Police State). I believe it has something to do with the government of Romulus depending too much upon the Tal Shiar, the Romulan secret police, to maintain order and stability among both civilians and the military. As we all known, the Tal Shiar was known for its brutal tactics, which included routine kidnapping, torture, and assassination. To the exten that even many Romulans feared even expressing dissenting opinions in order to not bring the attention of the Tal Shiar. Even it been indications that tension existed between the military and the Tal Shiar. Clearly when such things happens the military losses it power and thus can not be called a militaristic society, but rather Police state.

kodachikuno

alikain wrote: »

You do reaslie the is a reason why they change from the militaristic civilization, to what you so called cloak and dagger (Police State). I believe it has something to do with the government of Romulus depending too much upon the Tal Shiar, the Romulan secret police, to maintain order and stability among both civilians and the military. As we all known, the Tal Shiar was known for its brutal tactics, which included routine kidnapping, torture, and assassination. To the exten that even many Romulans feared even expressing dissenting opinions in order to not bring the attention of the Tal Shiar. Even it been indications that tension existed between the military and the Tal Shiar. Clearly when such things happens the military losses it power and thus can not be called a militaristic society, but rather Police state.

I think you mistake "reliance" on the Tal Shiar with "Blackmailed" and otherwise "Coerced" to use/rely on. Aside from that, you have good points.

alikain

kodachikuno wrote: »

alikain wrote: »

You do reaslie the is a reason why they change from the militaristic civilization, to what you so called cloak and dagger (Police State). I believe it has something to do with the government of Romulus depending too much upon the Tal Shiar, the Romulan secret police, to maintain order and stability among both civilians and the military. As we all known, the Tal Shiar was known for its brutal tactics, which included routine kidnapping, torture, and assassination. To the exten that even many Romulans feared even expressing dissenting opinions in order to not bring the attention of the Tal Shiar. Even it been indications that tension existed between the military and the Tal Shiar. Clearly when such things happens the military losses it power and thus can not be called a militaristic society, but rather Police state.

I think you mistake "reliance" on the Tal Shiar with "Blackmailed" and otherwise "Coerced" to use/rely on. Aside from that, you have good points.

i had to leave something for some to comment on, which you did.
even now the RR believe that they have moved away from the so called police state, such things just don't change over thing.

bltrrn

alikain wrote: »

kodachikuno wrote: »

alikain wrote: »

You do reaslie the is a reason why they change from the militaristic civilization, to what you so called cloak and dagger (Police State). I believe it has something to do with the government of Romulus depending too much upon the Tal Shiar, the Romulan secret police, to maintain order and stability among both civilians and the military. As we all known, the Tal Shiar was known for its brutal tactics, which included routine kidnapping, torture, and assassination. To the exten that even many Romulans feared even expressing dissenting opinions in order to not bring the attention of the Tal Shiar. Even it been indications that tension existed between the military and the Tal Shiar. Clearly when such things happens the military losses it power and thus can not be called a militaristic society, but rather Police state.

I think you mistake "reliance" on the Tal Shiar with "Blackmailed" and otherwise "Coerced" to use/rely on. Aside from that, you have good points.

i had to leave something for some to comment on, which you did.
even now the RR believe that they have moved away from the so called police state, such things just don't change over thing.

The Tal'Shiar needed to go, but do not mistaken our reforms, for weakness.

kodachikuno

bltrrn wrote: »

The Tal'Shiar needed to go, but do not mistaken our reforms, for weakness.

nah the reforms aren't the weakness... its the incompetent bumbling of D'Twerp and Kerererererereeeeeeeeeeek

alikain

the reforms aren't weakness...... but the romulan people are. i say this because they believe that everything spock said to them, here is the thing. believe is one thing and actaully trying to walk the path that you believe is another. take the vulcans as example and their logic even have problems. one would think that they been part of the federation would have change them that sometimes logic is not always the answer but only few of them change.

kodachikuno

alikain wrote: »

the reforms aren't weakness...... but the romulan people are. i say this because they believe that everything spock said to them, here is the thing. believe is one thing and actaully trying to walk the path that you believe is another. take the vulcans as example and their logic even have problems. one would think that they been part of the federation would have change them that sometimes logic is not always the answer but only few of them change.

D'Twerp and his apologists believe Spock. Most Romulans don't give two TRIBBLE about him, he's some Vulcan ambassador and he tried and failed to save Romulus. A figure of respect but one very very distant from themselves.

bltrrn

kodachikuno wrote: »

alikain wrote: »

the reforms aren't weakness...... but the romulan people are. i say this because they believe that everything spock said to them, here is the thing. believe is one thing and actaully trying to walk the path that you believe is another. take the vulcans as example and their logic even have problems. one would think that they been part of the federation would have change them that sometimes logic is not always the answer but only few of them change.

D'Twerp and his apologists believe Spock. Most Romulans don't give two TRIBBLE about him, he's some Vulcan ambassador and he tried and failed to save Romulus. A figure of respect but one very very distant from themselves.

Many still have faith in the Re-Unificationism of Valdore, and D'deridex. The Vulcan Confederacy MUST withdraw from the Federation, before any further overtures are considered.

thunderfoot

The Romulan Republic is at its beginnings. As such, mistakes will be made and not everything will be accounted for from the start. It was this way when the Empire began as well. Mark Lenard's character from the TOS episode Balance of Terror shows us there were honorable Rihannsu who were patriots and defenders of the Empire as it was back then. The Tal Shiar and the TNG Empire came about because some Rihannsu believed personal power is more important than the good of all Rihannsu everywhere. And they acted on this belief.

The Federation should be concerned about Section 31 for the same reasons. Section 31 is just the Tal Shiar in Human clothing. Drake and his ilk have far more in common with Sela and Hakeev than most people realize. The fact they are working for the supposed 'Good Guys' does not count.

I would not want to live in a Federation such as it is portrayed right now in STO. With Section 31 wielding nearly unlimited power and answerable to no one. Such people come to believe they are the only ones who can be trusted to protect the Federation and eventually see everyone who has an alternative plan to deal with threats to it as traitors. No one else can be trusted to do the right thing.

During the Vietnam War, there was an American officer who filed the following report in all seriousness:
"We had to completely destroy the village in order to save it from the enemy."

starswordc

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

The Romulan Republic is at its beginnings. As such, mistakes will be made and not everything will be accounted for from the start. It was this way when the Empire began as well. Mark Lenard's character from the TOS episode Balance of Terror shows us there were honorable Rihannsu who were patriots and defenders of the Empire as it was back then. The Tal Shiar and the TNG Empire came about because some Rihannsu believed personal power is more important than the good of all Rihannsu everywhere. And they acted on this belief.

Which is exactly what Ael fought against back in the 23rd century. Mnhei'sahe in its proper form is closest to the human concept of enlightened self-interest: you're supposed to be thinking of your own interest first, but your actions should still be to the benefit of everyone concerned.

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

The Federation should be concerned about Section 31 for the same reasons. Section 31 is just the Tal Shiar in Human clothing. Drake and his ilk have far more in common with Sela and Hakeev than most people realize. The fact they are working for the supposed 'Good Guys' does not count.

I would not want to live in a Federation such as it is portrayed right now in STO. With Section 31 wielding nearly unlimited power and answerable to no one. Such people come to believe they are the only ones who can be trusted to protect the Federation and eventually see everyone who has an alternative plan to deal with threats to it as traitors. No one else can be trusted to do the right thing.

Agreed completely. I would like to point out that peace with the Dominion came by thwarting Section 31's attempt at genocide, not because of it.

Drake is actually worse than Sloan, though: anybody else notice how many legitimate Federation ops he f*cks up in the KDF story? He gets a bunch of Starfleet ships blown up, and leads the KDF straight to a Starfleet Intelligence safehouse in First City.

If S31 really had the backing and aims people ascribe to it, they could've spared a hell of a lot of lives by just telling Worf what was going on. Sloan was nasty, but Drake is nasty and incompetent.

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

During the Vietnam War, there was an American officer who filed the following report in all seriousness:
"We had to completely destroy the village in order to save it from the enemy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bến_Tre

Keep things in context, please? The officer in question meant that there was severe collateral damage from the US driving the Vietcong out of town, not that they had deliberately destroyed the village like those murderers at My Lai.

bltrrn

thunderfoot006 wrote: »

The Romulan Republic is at its beginnings. As such, mistakes will be made and not everything will be accounted for from the start. It was this way when the Empire began as well. Mark Lenard's character from the TOS episode Balance of Terror shows us there were honorable Rihannsu who were patriots and defenders of the Empire as it was back then. The Tal Shiar and the TNG Empire came about because some Rihannsu believed personal power is more important than the good of all Rihannsu everywhere. And they acted on this belief.

The Federation should be concerned about Section 31 for the same reasons. Section 31 is just the Tal Shiar in Human clothing. Drake and his ilk have far more in common with Sela and Hakeev than most people realize. The fact they are working for the supposed 'Good Guys' does not count.

I would not want to live in a Federation such as it is portrayed right now in STO. With Section 31 wielding nearly unlimited power and answerable to no one. Such people come to believe they are the only ones who can be trusted to protect the Federation and eventually see everyone who has an alternative plan to deal with threats to it as traitors. No one else can be trusted to do the right thing.

During the Vietnam War, there was an American officer who filed the following report in all seriousness:
"We had to completely destroy the village in order to save it from the enemy."

Siskoism: not even once

alexhurlbut

gawainviii wrote: »

A long time ago, there was a brilliant mind who had a wonderful thought. This mind belonged to a man. The man was employed as a writer for Desilu Studio's newest science fiction television series, Star Trek. This man's name was Paul Schneider. Paul wrote a script for Star Trek, inspired by old submarine movies entitled "Balance of Terror". Paul needed a bad-guy for this episode. Paul thought the Klingons were too aggressive to make a good, edge-of-your-seat suspenseful villain for this type of story. What did Paul do? Paul had his wonderful thought, "What if the Romans had achieved space flight?". And the Romulans were born!

Fast forward... and different writers began recycling old material without knowing the origins of that material. Somehow, over time, "Romans in Space" became morphed into "**** in Space" complete with their own Gestapo-esque secret police, the Tal Shiar.

This is all fine and good. Storytelling evolves over time, just as the historical Romans did...

What I want to know is:
What would it take for me to convincingly re-brand the Romulan Star Empire as Rome-in-Space, once again, as part of my [RSE] foundry series?

And Genes added in his own take "Space Communist China".

horridperson

I don't think they completely abandoned the notion of Romulans as Romans in TNG. While the Tal Shiar come to the forefront in many of the plots I thought the story of Spock living among the Romulans was an interesting subplot. I'm not a religious person so my observation comes from a purely historical assessment but I see parallels between the Vulcan activists and the early Christians who lived within the Roman Empire. The beauty of the story was that it echoed the history without overtly painting Spock as a Christ figure or the Reunificationists as disciples.

I loved,"Balance of Terror" for the complexity of it's characters contained in such a compact screenplay. The older Romulan officers might have served in the Romulan Earth War so their wariness confronting a Federation vessel was likely a consequence of their experience. Federation: The First 125 years is a fun coffee table book that provides some insights into the nature of the Romulans and makes reference to a Byzantine political landscape without featuring the Tal Shiar. War for Romulans it seems is about conquest, growth and by extension glory for the architect of said conquests. Like the Romans the prestige gathered on campaign cements internal powers and protects them from their rivals.

Revivals of the Earth's Roman Empire have occurred repeatedly in our own history. There is always a desire to revisit the glories of the past to salve pride or bathe one's self in reflected glories. Napoleonic France and ***** Germany both adopted the trappings of Roman pageantry to validate their own ambitions. It's inconceivable that all Romulans would be pleased with their position in the galactic order. Removing the Tal Shiar from the equation a movement could begin with Loyalists from the former Romulan Navy. With the Tal Shiar and Sela as scapegoats for the fate of the Romulan people a conniving mountebank could arise promising a return to the old Empire. Romulan character seems to respect tradition and order through strength the problem with the existing story is that the Romulans persecuted their own people rather than looking for an outside enemy to unite them. If an enemy were to stir up Romulans against the Republic through non violent methods how would D'Tan address the threat to his own beliefs? I think it would make an interesting story but it wouldn't involve a lot of pew pew.

mustrumridcully0

starswordc wrote: »

Agreed completely. I would like to point out that peace with the Dominion came by thwarting Section 31's attempt at genocide, not because of it.

Indeed. I imagine that if the Founders had realy been killed off, the consequences would have been horrible. The Founders aren't nice people. The whole Dominion is there attempt to protect themselves from the Solids that used to threaten them. And when species rebelled, the punishment was often harsh and cruel to set an example.

I don't think the Jem'Hadar would just be ordered/programmed to commit suicide. They would have basically been programmed or ordered (or just felt compelled) to kill as many people as possible to avenge their Gods - and not just in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants (where they might be containable to some extent, even though it might spell the end of the Cardassian people). Imagine the wanton destruction they could have unleashed in Dominion territory where there is no other significant miltiary force that could stop them. *shudder*

Drake is actually worse than Sloan, though: anybody else notice how many legitimate Federation ops he f*cks up in the KDF story? He gets a bunch of Starfleet ships blown up, and leads the KDF straight to a Starfleet Intelligence safehouse in First City.

Indeed, that was quite ridicilous. Okay, maybe he did not anticipate the Hero to be able to beat so many Fed ships, but that would just make it a horrible miscalculation - it still doesn't paint him in a good light.

I am still of the opinion that Section 31 can only be seen as a rogue organization.
It's not like the Tal'Shiar (at least not the TNG/DS9 Tal'Shiar, in STO after Hobus, things changed) - it was part of the Romulan Empire's system - even if it was a questionable part.