Civilian and Generic Starships

wakeroberts

I've enjoyed my Tuffli class freighter for several years. (Boy am I glad I bought it when it was still only 30 mil on the exchange) Since the Tuffli was introduced I've hoped that some of the other canon civilian and generic starships would be made playable in game. I think the best example of this category would be the Acamarian Frigate which is currently in game as an NPC. I would absolutely love to see this ship made playable.

I know that there are others out there that would like to see these vessels, that have provided such substance to the Star Trek universe, make their way into the game. Which of these ships would you like to be cruising the space lanes with? Please share your suggestions!

cidjack

None.

The tuffi and cell ships both share a purpose. Adding ships into the game for the only reason is "they are canon, or they were in an episode of star trek once" is not justification to add them.

If they were added to the game they would have to support a unique purpose over a reskinned cell or tuffi to creat demand to purchase them.

The limited quantity of tuffis on the exchange can be directly linked to the reinforcement duty officer pack, it is not included in the newer lock boxes per player request. Doff packs were seen as subpar reward for opening a lockbox.

kodachikuno

I'd like to see a few more freighter skins, the deferi one looks nice on the outside for ex. But as for the rest of the "civilian" catagory... I agree they would need a point. As civilian they will be under gunned, and under shielded, compared to Starfleet/KDF/RRM vessels and the whining about that would never cease. Conversely I would like to see more "minor power" ships. These could compete with the major military powers in terms of weapons/armor/shields but since the Governments behind them are too small to field as many, are rare/uncommon.

wakeroberts

The civilian category would not be composed of freighters and transports exclusively and would not necessarily be under-gunned. For example, the unidentified vessel from the Qualor 2 Depot in TNG: Unification Part 1, or Baran's mercenary vessel from TNG: Gambit Parts 1+2. Both of these would fall under the category of civilian as they are clearly not in the service of any government or military organization.

Exactly my point with the minor powers Koda. Many of them use mass produced 3rd party designs or surplus acquisitions from neighboring governments. Hence, they fall into the generic category.

kodachikuno

wakeroberts wrote: »

The civilian category would not be composed of freighters and transports exclusively and would not necessarily be under-gunned. For example, the unidentified vessel from the Qualor 2 Depot in TNG: Unification Part 1, or Baran's mercenary vessel from TNG: Gambit Parts 1+2. Both of these would fall under the category of civilian as they are clearly not in the service of any government or military organization.

Exactly my point with the minor powers Koda. Many of them use mass produced 3rd party designs or surplus acquisitions from neighboring governments. Hence, they fall into the generic category.

Mercenary vessels generally are not in the civilian catagory, they're in a blurry area similar to law enforcement and militia. Not as strong as actual military, but more than civilian. As for the ones you mentioned, iirc both were more pirate vessels, completely ignoring any laws/restrictions on weapons and technology. Pirate vessels would be fun as hell imo, specifically because they do that. Similar to what the RSE gave to Sela for her last FE appearance. Sure it looks like a tramp freighter, hits like a cruiser, but it looks civilian. Even passes as one on a cursory scan.

wakeroberts

I completely agree. It would only make sense to actually make any of these ships that we're discussing viable for active game play. This would mean with armaments sufficient for game combat. This would be my thought for the Acamarian Frigate. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind seeing that scavenger warship from Unification in game either.

sevenofnine13141

To be technical, Civilian ships have a limited armament compared to Law Enforcement and Military ships. Though I've never seen a Federation Law Enforcement ship as an NPC patrolling the space lines for contraband, etc. Maybe because the Federation doesn't have an official Law Enforcement division as far as we know?

kodachikuno

remember... technically Starfleet *IS* the 'peace keepers' for the UFP not the military...nvm the reality. From what Ive seen in various episodes and such, frigates and other smaller vessels spend the bulk of their time playing 'cop' on patrol

wakeroberts

There is civilian law enforcement at planetary and interplanetary levels separate from Starfleet that we have seen. Remember the Federation Security Agent that McCoy encountered in the bar in ST3:SFS? It's unclear exactly what jurisdiction Federation Security is empowered with. But, I believe it would be throughout Federation space as opposed to other civilian law enforcement like the V'Shar that would enforce laws directly pertaining to Vulcan.

hanover2

I would love a whole new civilian/privateer/pirate faction.

sisteric

hanover2 wrote: »

I would love a whole new civilian/privateer/pirate faction.

Wouldn't that just be a Ferengi faction?

kjwashington

I say that they should just give them out as the T5 consolation prizes for lockboxes.

hanover2

sisteric wrote: »

hanover2 wrote: »

I would love a whole new civilian/privateer/pirate faction.

Wouldn't that just be a Ferengi faction?

Not if I'm limited to Ferengi ships or officers. I want a non-aligned faction.

fraghul2000

The tuffi and cell ships both share a purpose. Adding ships into the game for the only reason is "they are canon, or they were in an episode of star trek once" is not justification to add them.

so you're suggesting, that myriad of obscure alien and mirror ships they've introduced over the years, most of them non-canon, with some of the species never even recieving a name or screentime on the show, all have some sort of distinct purpose?

sisteric wrote: »

hanover2 wrote: »

I would love a whole new civilian/privateer/pirate faction.

Wouldn't that just be a Ferengi faction?

It could be, but considering what they have hinted about, the changes that happened in the Ferengi Alliance since Rom took over as Grand Nagus, we might see a much more Fed-alligned, less "mercenary-like" Ferengi Alliance than what we were used to from DS9.

Overall, I think it would be cool to see a neutral faction.

wakeroberts

A civilian/mercenary/non-aligned faction would be the great. I'd love to see it some day.

warmaker001b

wakeroberts wrote: »

A civilian/mercenary/non-aligned faction would be the great. I'd love to see it some day.

Cryptic has a long, terrible history developing factions outside the Federation. A very quick look at the Playable Ships List, especially KDF & Romulan ships in relation to Starfleet ones should tell you what Cryptic's philosophy is with anything that isn't Federation. They've gotten better about it since Delta Rising but the releases are still lopsided. If they can't do the KDF & Romulans right, another faction is not going to get it better.

wakeroberts

Which is why hoping for a new ship, while still a somewhat lofty hope, is more likely to happen.

Unknown

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chipg7

I'd love to see come civie ships of some type, if not just for the RP aspect. It'd be great to have a set of non-faction ships ranging from transport to battlecruiser, to give toons who aren't Starfleet, KDF, or Republic Fleet some options that aren't other aliens' / space navies' ships.

sisteric wrote: »

hanover2 wrote: »

I would love a whole new civilian/privateer/pirate faction.

Wouldn't that just be a Ferengi faction?

Ferengi, Orion... any race we've seen filling a largely commerce role.

wakeroberts

Orion ships would be nice to see openly available to all players. It makes sense that they would sell ships to anyone who has the latinum.

tessaravejgan

wakeroberts wrote: »

Orion ships would be nice to see openly available to all players. It makes sense that they would sell ships to anyone who has the latinum.

Orions are part of the Klingon empire now so I don't think the high council would appreciate them selling ships to outsiders.

As for civilian ships, what for? What purpose would they have? I never saw anyone in an stf with a tuffli or cell ships We already have plenty of alien non faction specific ships like Samsar, breen, ferengi, etc.

kayajay

I said this awhile ago...take a gang of Tuffli's into STF ;-) I've already taken mine into the Dyson Space Battlezone and it's great fun!

themartian

I've generally considered some of my KDF characters as basically mercenaries/pirates anyway, that's why they sometimes fly Breen or Risian vessels. They don't belong to the High Council, they're my captain's and she's using it to help the Empire for the pay day and some discretion the next time she's caught smuggling. In real life there's a long tradition of governments using pirates instead of their own navy so that they can pretend not to be involved. Nausicaans and Orions are both pirates in canon and even the Klingons have a feudal system that allows some autonomy from the High Council.

angrytarg

kodachikuno wrote: »

remember... technically Starfleet *IS* the 'peace keepers' for the UFP not the military...nvm the reality. From what Ive seen in various episodes and such, frigates and other smaller vessels spend the bulk of their time playing 'cop' on patrol

Exactly. Starfleet is de facto the UFPs police (and essentially a paramilitary organization). There are still services like the aforementioned V'Shar and a Federate Security Agency who take care of planetary matters and possibly solve the crimes and prosecute criminals, but Starfleet most likely are the "uniforms" patrolling, protecting and arresting as far as law enforcement goes. If they catch a criminal they'd probably transfer them to the authorities wherever the crime has been commited, so Vulcan or Tellarite authorities for example. Federate Security probably is akin to a FBI like federal police with agents all over investiating interplanetary matters, but if there's a starship on the run or a arrest being made in space it's Starfleet they call, at least that's what I suspect.​​

warmaker001b

kodachikuno wrote: »

remember... technically Starfleet *IS* the 'peace keepers' for the UFP not the military...nvm the reality. From what Ive seen in various episodes and such, frigates and other smaller vessels spend the bulk of their time playing 'cop' on patrol

I have to disagree. Starfleet is far more than "The Police" or a "Coast Guard in Space." It is the military arm of the Federation but the scope of its capabilities and power exceeds even that.

Throughout the franchise, we see Starfleet pushing exploration and keeping the peace with diplomacy or force in many skirmishes. Yet we also see in the franchise that it is Starfleet that takes front and center stage when war erupts for the Federation. It is Starfleet that fights the Federation's wars. No TV episode or movie evidence says otherwise. That's not exactly the mandate of Police / Security forces watching for criminals, smugglers, etc.

Starfleet has a huge range of responsibilities than a real world, modern military has. Do not forget that the Federation was formed first as a military alliance against a military threat and not just a bunch of guys that are happy together and want to explore what's next door. Starfleet was built first and foremost to defend the Federation with the threat of force as a deterrent, whether Picard likes it or not.

Now, I will agree that smaller vessels will be out patrolling and ensuring security, keeping the peace in Federation space. Smaller vessels like frigates, destroyers make up the numbers of a navy and do the common work, dirty work. The pampered princesses, i.e. Cruisers and such, act on the bigger matters.

kodachikuno

warmaker001b wrote: »

kodachikuno wrote: »

remember... technically Starfleet *IS* the 'peace keepers' for the UFP not the military...nvm the reality. From what Ive seen in various episodes and such, frigates and other smaller vessels spend the bulk of their time playing 'cop' on patrol

I have to disagree. Starfleet is far more than "The Police" or a "Coast Guard in Space." It is the military arm of the Federation but the scope of its capabilities and power exceeds even that.

Throughout the franchise, we see Starfleet pushing exploration and keeping the peace with diplomacy or force in many skirmishes. Yet we also see in the franchise that it is Starfleet that takes front and center stage when war erupts for the Federation. It is Starfleet that fights the Federation's wars. No TV episode or movie evidence says otherwise. That's not exactly the mandate of Police / Security forces watching for criminals, smugglers, etc.

Starfleet has a huge range of responsibilities than a real world, modern military has. Do not forget that the Federation was formed first as a military alliance against a military threat and not just a bunch of guys that are happy together and want to explore what's next door. Starfleet was built first and foremost to defend the Federation with the threat of force as a deterrent, whether Picard likes it or not.

Now, I will agree that smaller vessels will be out patrolling and ensuring security, keeping the peace in Federation space. Smaller vessels like frigates, destroyers make up the numbers of a navy and do the common work, dirty work. The pampered princesses, i.e. Cruisers and such, act on the bigger matters.

Notice in my quote I said "nvm the reality" there's a reason I said that... pretty much the ones you list no less. Reality is, weather Gene liked it or not, Starfleet is a military force. That said, all of its propaganda machine is spent spewing the 'explorer and peacekeeper' roles. In actual effect I'd guess that member states of the Federation utilize their own military vessels for law enforcement in their home systems(with plenty of bureaucratic BS that allows Starfleet to take control if Z,Y,X conditions apply) and Starfleet handles things in the wider, generic regions. To use a terrestrial example, the Coast Guard operates inside U.S. waters but the Navy handles issues in the international regions.(oversimplified yes I know)

wakeroberts

Using a KDF toon to fill a pirate role makes perfect sense. It works well on that side. Still it would be nice to have the variety for such a character to be a Tellarite flying a Gorn ship that he picked up 3rd hand on Drozana for what the Ferengi said was quite a bargain. Or for your Nausicaan to upgrade to a Tamarian Battlecruiser after he flew his Guramba a little too close to that last Quasar back there.

The ultimate point is that adding more of the minor Alpha Quadrant powers and their ships into the game would be great. Those are the ships after all that we have seen time and again on screen in service to any number of parties, private or government.

With the range of functions Starfleet performs, in modern day terms you'd have to combine the Navy, Coast Guard, FBI, CIA, NOAA, CDC, Army Corps of Engineers, hell you might as well throw in the Weather Service while we're at it. The service really does do it all, but when you boil it down, they are the Federation's uniformed service charged with defense. That, by anyone's dictionary, would place them under the heading: Military. I respect and admire the great bird of the galaxy for his creation and his intent, but on the definition of Starfleet, I think he was trying to make too fine a point and have it both ways.

angrytarg

warmaker001b wrote: »

I have to disagree. Starfleet is far more than "The Police" or a "Coast Guard in Space." It is the military arm of the Federation but the scope of its capabilities and power exceeds even that.

Throughout the franchise, we see Starfleet pushing exploration and keeping the peace with diplomacy or force in many skirmishes. Yet we also see in the franchise that it is Starfleet that takes front and center stage when war erupts for the Federation. It is Starfleet that fights the Federation's wars. No TV episode or movie evidence says otherwise. That's not exactly the mandate of Police / Security forces watching for criminals, smugglers, etc.

Starfleet has a huge range of responsibilities than a real world, modern military has. Do not forget that the Federation was formed first as a military alliance against a military threat and not just a bunch of guys that are happy together and want to explore what's next door. Starfleet was built first and foremost to defend the Federation with the threat of force as a deterrent, whether Picard likes it or not.

Now, I will agree that smaller vessels will be out patrolling and ensuring security, keeping the peace in Federation space. Smaller vessels like frigates, destroyers make up the numbers of a navy and do the common work, dirty work. The pampered princesses, i.e. Cruisers and such, act on the bigger matters.

Not to re-heat that old, old old debate again, but what about countries not featuring a military but paramilitary police services which act as combatants in case of national defense?

Starfleet is a humongous service unifying what in the today's real world are a lot more agencies. Military arm/military function yes, but not military per se. A good example would be the German Bundesgrenzschutz (Federal Border Protection) in post WW2 Germany. Military grade equipped police under civil jurisdiction with combatant status and internationally operating special forces (GSG 9 - which are police, not military. Which might have been changed because there was an instance of pirates taking hostages in international waters a few years ago and GSG9 arrived on site but weren't allowed to intervene in that particular case). That's essentially Starfleet's defensive function. The Bundesgrenzschutz doesn't exist any more as it was reformed into the Federal Police, but the concept is the closest I came up with in terms of real life agencies reflecting Starfleet's defensive role.​​

mirrorchaos

Starfleet isnt just about defense, it has a number of functions, exploration and diplomacy are one such case, but they also do border patrols, mostly with frigates and smaller cruisers that can handle pirates and other smaller threats, saber class and miranda class for example and maybe the intrepid class. science is also apart of the game, nova class and nebula class ships are sent out to do planetary survey reports, nebula surveys, background space scans, subspace scanning and so on.

thats just a few functions they provide, starfleet is the main point of contact for the UFP in a lot of cases. but the UFP also have a lot of other official groups that work for them, once starfleet has cleared it, or during a mission from time to time, whatever the case. Starfleet are more than a space patrol service.

kodachikuno

mirrorchaos wrote: »

maybe the intrepid class.

what was Voyager's first mission again? oh yeah hunt pirates/outlaws in the badlands

sevenofnine13141

Mhm. Starfleet is a combination of National Guard, Border Security, and Military Intelligence and NASA (For the exploration aspect). Civilian Law Enforcement stuff in the Federation is usually handled by Civilian Law Enforcement agencies such as Federation Security. (Not to be confused with Starfleet Security, which is essentially Military Police.)