Terraforming Earth

deaftravis05

As the ice melts and the climate of Earth begins to change (we're seeing huge losses of farmland at the equator), a thought comes to me.

Should we terraform Earth to bring water to the deserts or... should we make use of these lands that we've lost and convert them into massive solar farms to generate electricity for the subpolar regions where people will eventually migrate to?

thoughts?

artan42

I'd start by painting the major cities white to increase the albedo effect, then turn Australia, the Arabian Peninsula, and the South of Africa into solar farms.​​

deaftravis05

I believe Saudi Arabia is already starting to convert their country into solar farms, now that oil isn't so accessible now.

artan42

We need far more of the farms, and a huge amount of investment into solar technology.​​

deaftravis05

Well, if we converted most of the desert in Australia to a solar farm, we could provide enough power for the Earth's current needs.

markhawkman

I'd start by fixing the Sahara.... a climate shift several thousand years ago is what made it desert, apparently the same climate shift that created the Amazon rainforest.

deaftravis05

well, that can be fixed by pumping seawater that has been desalinated into the desert.

alexmakepeace

I don't think we have the know-how to "terraform" marginal regions yet. Take the Sahara--how would we go about "fixing" it? Pumping water and introducing plants won't do any good without good soil, and that takes time. We're used to tweaking ecosystems, bit as far as I know we've never tried to build one.

As for desalinating seawater, that's expensive and energy intensive.

And then there's the question of animals and plants going extinct. The fundamental problem of climate change for the natural world is not that the climate is changing (that's happened before), but that it's changing faster than species can cope with. Terraforming won't since that problem, and may even exacerbate it.

And then there's the question of who should foot the bill.

Expect unexpected consequences no matter how well-thought-out the project is.

markhawkman

deaftravis05 wrote: »

well, that can be fixed by pumping seawater that has been desalinated into the desert.

Not quite. It'd just evaporate as-is. The issue in the Sahara is the very high evaporation rate. It's just ridiculously hot and dry... which makes it stay that way.

gradii

Only way to make solar energy truly viable is to put the panels where it matters. in SPACE. above pesky weather. then you can have truly efficient solar power.

I'll just leave this here

deaftravis05

Well, we would dump a great deal of water there and yes it'd evaporate, but that's good. It'll generate storms, and we keep dumping the water there until it takes hold. It will take years, decades probably.

markhawkman

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Well, we would dump a great deal of water there and yes it'd evaporate, but that's good. It'll generate storms, and we keep dumping the water there until it takes hold. It will take years, decades probably.

The Sahara already has storms. The air currents passing over it have moisture, but it keeps moving west.

alexmakepeace

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Well, we would dump a great deal of water there and yes it'd evaporate, but that's good. It'll generate storms, and we keep dumping the water there until it takes hold. It will take years, decades probably.

More like centuries. Maybe never. You could end up turning the Sahara into a giant pit of quicksand rather than anything useful.

Here's the problem. Plants need good soil, but to get good soil, you need good base material and, usually, organic input. Where does this input come from, typically? Well, from plants. So you have this chicken-and-egg problem where you have a pair of attributes that have each other as a prerequisite. This is why it's so difficult to restore the Amazonian rainforests once they're cleared: The amazon has poor soil. The only reason so much plant life can grow there is because there's a constant organic input from dead plant matter. Take that away, and the rain quickly leeches out most of the nutrients, making it even more difficult for new plants to grow.

As I recall. you can get good soil from purely inorganic materials, but it takes a long time.

Some plants compensate for poor soil by eating animals (typically bugs). But what do you need in order to have animals? Plants. Same problem. And on top of that, you have some plants that require animals to propagate.

And once again, there's the question of cost. Who pays for this huge undertaking? Who pays for the desalination facilities? Where do we get the energy to power desalination on that scale?

A more practical approach might be to work at the edges of marginal ecosystems, where species from adjacent regions are attempting to colonize, and facilitate that colonization.

markhawkman

Heh, I think a good first step might actually be to build solar plants there. It'd at least turn some of the energy into something more useful than heat.

deaftravis05

Perhaps covering a considerable chunk of that in solar panels might actually alter weather patterns, bringing rain to the desert

markhawkman

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Perhaps covering a considerable chunk of that in solar panels might actually alter weather patterns, bringing rain to the desert

Like I said, it already rains... just not often and when it does it evaporates almost immediately.

It might however reduce the evaporation rate somewhat.

deaftravis05

Indeed.

How to shoulder the costs? Well, nations wanting to sign in on the energy deal could all chip in for the construction of an energy grid connecting Europe to Africa?

markhawkman

deaftravis05 wrote: »

Indeed.

How to shoulder the costs? Well, nations wanting to sign in on the energy deal could all chip in for the construction of an energy grid connecting Europe to Africa?

That or you could use the panels to power some sort of energy storage system to store the collected energy.

deaftravis05

We have that ability, actually. They're called Telsa batteries.

highlord83

deaftravis05 wrote: »

I believe Saudi Arabia is already starting to convert their country into solar farms, now that oil isn't so accessible now.

Saudi has much more to worry about than it's oil supplies. Things like it's aquifers and other natural fresh water sources drying out, just like in California.

It's what happens when one makes farms in the farking desert.

deaftravis05

But Saudi Arabia has enough resources to build desalination plants.

starfarertheta

Back in 2009 someone wanted to plant a forest in the Sahara but the plan had an estimated price tag of 2 trillion dollars per year.

http://io9.com/5360952/geohackers-want-to-transform-the-sahara-into-a-forest

deaftravis05

how the hell do you get two trillion dollars per year? You start small, not massive.

markhawkman

deaftravis05 wrote: »

how the hell do you get two trillion dollars per year? You start small, not massive.

I don't think the people who came up with that plan thought that far ahead.

deaftravis05

proper terraforming takes decades. Natural takes thousands of years without drastic climate changes.

alexmakepeace

Natural changes typically take thousands of years, but they can happen much more quickly if conditions change.

Saudia Arabia's answer to running out of water to grow crops has been to use its oil money to buy farmland in other countries and have the food shipped back to Saudi Arabia. Sounds great, right? Problem is, the countries it buys land in are generally poor countries with ineffective or corrupt governments, so taking land away from the locals means food is harder to come by in that country.

deaftravis05

they did the same in Canada... it did not go well with the locals.

They really should just focus on desalination concepts and well, use that.

lilchibiclari

gradii wrote: »

Only way to make solar energy truly viable is to put the panels where it matters. in SPACE. above pesky weather. then you can have truly efficient solar power.

I'll just leave this here

And the problem with getting that space energy back to Earth is that any power beam that is dense enough to not need a miles-wide receiver on the ground is also dense enough to be used as a weapon.

deaftravis05

lilchibiclari wrote: »

gradii wrote: »

Only way to make solar energy truly viable is to put the panels where it matters. in SPACE. above pesky weather. then you can have truly efficient solar power.

I'll just leave this here

And the problem with getting that space energy back to Earth is that any power beam that is dense enough to not need a miles-wide receiver on the ground is also dense enough to be used as a weapon.

as proven in "die another day"

k20vtec

Speaking of panels in Sahara, would it mean that now we will invade nations there for lack of freedom?

markhawkman

deaftravis05 wrote: »

lilchibiclari wrote: »

gradii wrote: »

Only way to make solar energy truly viable is to put the panels where it matters. in SPACE. above pesky weather. then you can have truly efficient solar power.

I'll just leave this here

And the problem with getting that space energy back to Earth is that any power beam that is dense enough to not need a miles-wide receiver on the ground is also dense enough to be used as a weapon.

as proven in "die another day"

Not to mention the weather effects.... The most efficient setup for power beaming is a geostationary orbit that beams power straight down or close to it. This would also create a rather intense updraft at that location. Possibly even a permanent cyclone...