My last 4 new characters (3 Delta Recruits, one after Delta) all got a full array of purple mk II gear right out of the gate from my older toons, they then upgraded this gear as they leveled. Any player who does not take advantage of the resources offered by their existing characters when making a new one is missing some common sense. I have 15 characters now, can easily max out daily dil on at least 10 of them, whenever I want to, and I make 300k EC just vendoring off trash loot drops, not even counting doffs put up for sale, various crafted items being sold, etc. I have a very limited budget in regards to this game, most of my Zen is from Dilithium, I buy any needed Fleet Ship Modules, Ship Upgrades, and so on from the exchange.
#1 The profanity isn't necessary, counterproductive and has been flagged.
#2 The jokes on you, I do not own a single drop box ship, never tried to even get one. The ships I have are Zen store ships paid with either my lifetime membership stipend, or money that I have spent. Only two of my toons are using fleet weapons, (and wouldve been better off crafting/levelling a set) and all but one use the Borg set, all but one are still running MKXII's. I could replicate any of these builds from level one within three months if I played every night, or at least every othernight. A new player, taking into account a learning curve and the thouht that they would ask questions in game and try to learn in the forums, lets put them at 5-6 months (without dedicated instruction).
So yes, when I see people whining about lock box shop prices on the exchange being too high, and that "they" can't have a good build without a lock box ship, et al., youre darn right I see people behaving like they are entitled, and that I do call them out on it. Lock box ships and epic gear just aren't needed for a great/competitive build, and you dont need to spend a fortune at the exchange either.
As far as time for a new player to build up, it shouldnt be near-instant gratification, it should take time to get and endgame high quality build. if they ask questions and find a good fleet, the learning curve will change to be favorable.
Let the whales whale, if people are ridiuclous to pay stupid amounts for a lockbox ship or keys in the exchange, let them, the top of the line players will still mop the floor with them, while the elites drive T5 ships and MKXII gear( if the chose to do so).
first: great write up
second: I got money, I know how to make money in this game, I got ALL the high end gear I want with cash to spare, and....
and its already been pointed out COUNTLESS times on the forums here that NONE of the high end gear is even needed for the content even elite content...
SO THAT ALONE is proof this TRIBBLE is way over priced
look, it boils down this simple-
market trolls drove the sto economy off the cliff, they even recently tried begging for a EC cap increase cause they don't have enough pockets to stuff the money in and want to fleece the player population even more on the exchange LOL
again, to be clear: sto is an anomaly in regards to the BULK of the MMO games out there when your talking character progression and gear
-you got no high end content that requires ANY HIGH END GEAR
-you got a market that ACTS like this TRIBBLE is required
-you got a playerbase that by enlarge is poor with their cash being funneled through a handful of market trolls that don't drop a dime in this game
-you got the best ways of making cash in this game being exploits, market trolling, multi toon grinding, or credit card swiping
-you got new players faced with the FACT that the best way to get access to any high end gear is simply NOT to spend time playing their main toon LOL
LOL I call shenanigans!
something should be done about this is all im saying..
I use to be able to advice players on builds... the grind was do able, the credit swipes 50-100 bucks tops...
Do you even read what you write? As has been stated many times in this thread, those high priced items are NOT NEEDED to play the game. You just admitted it yourself in the post above. If these things aren't NEEDED, then why all the QQ'ing? This is a case of people just WANTING things for nothing, that others got through playing/grinding or using their RL money, which is THEIR money and not subject to your scrutiny. If someone wants to drop $1000 a month on this game, that's fine with me, because it has absolutely zero effect on my or anyone else's ability to play/enjoy the game. What it does do,however, is allow the company to pay for employees to work on the game and keep it running, which again is fine with me. Then, they open lockboxes to get the things that you even admitted are NOT NEEDED, put them on the exchange for a price they want to sell it for and wait for players to either: decide that's too much, in which case the item sits there and doesn't benefit the person at all, or, a player says"hmm...I do WANT that and it's kinda high priced but I can't spend any RL money so I'll buy it on the exchange". A very simple premise, and one that allows all people to play for free, because Cryptic gets paid and keeps the game going, and players that would otherwise have no possible way to get those items can get them, even though they don't NEED them.
Then, you complain about people swiping their cards to do those things, but yet you used to advise new players that they had to drop $50-$100, along with a "do-able" grind? Hypocrite much? No one has to drop any RL cash on this game at all, unless you WANT(boy, that's a bothersome word, isn't it?) something, or you WANT to support the game, and keep it running. My suggestion to you is to look up the definitions of the words want/need and decipher the differences between them.Also, check out "hypocrisy" while you're there.
I hold no animosity towards anyone in the game, whether they're a casher or F2P, and I encourage all players to search for ways to improve ingame. I have and do help new players to the game, whether it's through basic ship build questions/boff skills, and have even used my own EC to buy players a ship to help them on their way, and will continue to do so, while I have the resources available to me. As I stated in a previous post, I DO NOT like paying the prices for those high end shinies and I don't NEED them, so I use my own free will and just refuse to buy. All players have the same choices, and refusal to buy at the prices being proffered are the way to make the totally UNNEEDED shinies drop in price. Then, when the price has dropped to a level I deem do-able, I'll buy that ship/doff/console that I WANT, but don't actually NEED.
Apologies for all the capped words, but apparently some people haven't figured out the meanings of those words yet, and I felt the NEED(LOL) to emphasize them for clarity.
Btw, I see you were able to drop 300 million EC during the upgrade event. Good for you, and I applaud your efforts to improve. But yet, after reading through your posts about EC trolls, isn't 300 million EC alot to have?
#1 Im obviously not the one taking it so personally, for I'm not the one throwing profanity and personal statements at not on me, but others who have a different point of view than yours.
#2 I've been saying the whole time that lockbox ships arent needed to be competitive in this game. complaining about the economy and calling for Cryptic/PWE to force down the prices of the economy, so people can buy cheaper lock box ships is absolutely a call for instant gratification. Explain to me how lockbox ships are a "need" to be competitive when people are r rackingp up high dps and PvP victories without them?
#3 I am wholeheartedly for the exchange being no-one business, by me taking words up against those who demand Cryptic to take pricing control actions is to defend transactions being between buyer and the seller, those who don't like the prices being offered have had thier say by not buying the product (either being able to afford it or not).
#4The same people that are complaining about the prices also have the option to pursue lockbox ships by buying keys and getting them on thier own but they chose not to, why is it that I should feel empathy for people that cant afford to buy a lockbox ship on the exchange when they didn't chose to go the other route (the route which many sellers got thier wares they are selling on the exchange), especially when I dont have, cant afford (don' need) lock box ships myself?
#5 How is it not asking for instant gratification when people want Cryptic to force down prices?
Anything you do to modify the market at this point will cause serious grief and potential problems. I came from an MMO that taxes 30% on AH/exchange listings and honestly it didn't drive down prices. In fact it drove prices up as players raised their minimums to match that percentage.
A tax on dilitium will do no good IMO either as it is already capped at 8k (plus some odd bonuses if you meet the criteria) already.
Honestly at this point the only way to "fix" the economy is to catch people cheating and report the EC sellers as that as far as I am aware is a TOS violation. Sadly I don't think Cryptic even pays attention to those.
As someone who has nicely equipped ships from way before the market ran off the cliff and who doesn't really give a damn about EC, I can say the market as it currently is, is a mess, and new players are pretty screwed by it.
For a new player to be able to make EC off the current state of the game is really hard. They're better off grinding the reps and making their own gear from the R&D system. Too many EC whales using multiple toons to push prices down and push anyone in their way out.
"1) The STO economy is mostly centered on a single item, the [Master Key], the key used to open the many lockboxes which contain valuable and desirable loot."
You mean to tell me there is no Grey/Black Key market going on in STO ? 100% is above board and clean of any manipulation ?
Going back to your very important notation. "The STO economy is mostly centered on a single item. the {Master Key]."
It's pretty simple, control the Key market, control the exchange. Key manipulation itself can send shockwaves throughout the economy. And have repercussions on the price of everything in the game.
Any well Organized group could mount an assault on the master key market. They don't even need to control other aspects of the market, like traits or ships, that's secondary and not nearly as important to the economy structure then the master key.
Now, yes, I may have blown the manipulation of the market out of proportion, but the point I was trying to make is that if enough individuals form a cooperative, they could easily manipulate the price ranges of everything in the game through the control of the key market. By either working in collusion with a large circle of players or employing the use of Bots to buy up any key below a certain price point. (go ahead, have another good laugh) ill wait until you catch your breath....
Now that is out of your system, tell me why that is so hard to believe ? Even if the bot is detected and account banned, another could easily be created to start the cycle a new.
You mean to tell me, this isn't going on ? At all ??? And I'm just being paranoid ? Okay, maybe so, but, riddle me this Mr. Riddler, where's the black market EC coming from ? Its coming from somewhere, or I wouldn't see the spamming in game from EC seller sites on a daily basis. In addition to the EC seller site spam I see daily, I can assume they make some kind of profit or I wouldn't have seen these people spamming the chats for 3+ years (since I joined the game). No profit, no reason to continue spamming. So that leads me to believe that these sites are either semi profitable (enough to keep the charade going) or massively profitable. So it's clear they've got the currency to spare. So where'd they get all their EC if you know so much about the economy ? IMO it's coming from the manipulation of the Key Market.
Look, I'm good myself, I don't need anything atm in game, and if I do, I'll just whale it. So the price points don't really matter to me. I don't care what the cost of a key is or a certain ship is.
All I'm doing here, is putting forth a plausible scenario as to what is going on/influencing the inflation in STO's economy.
Name me 1 mmo that doesn't have a black market ? (an mmo where you can earn RL money currency in game, with game currency exchange - or trade it). There are none ! Where do you think the term gold farming came from ? And why do you think people spend the time doing it ? Because there is profit to be made from games that have tradable currencies. The only exceptions would be games that don't have tradable currency. Like one example, War Thunder, everyone has access to the same planes and tanks, they are leveled and upgraded with battle points essentially, you play, you earn those battle points. But if you want the specialty planes and tanks, you must buy them with RL currency. (there are several per faction) There are no specialty vehicles in the game that you can buy with battle points, there is no battle point/RL currency exchange. There are no Lockboxes or master keys or any other form of gambling. There are no trades, or exchange to buy these things for in game battle points. Therefore there is nothing to exploit.
The closest thing I've seen in that game to market manipulation, were people trying to sell russian IP address's to North American client's. By doing this, the buyer of game currency could get a better return on their dollar as the Russian cost ratio per rupple/dollar to in game RL currency was far more favorable then the American cost ratio per dollar to in game RL currency. But that is just an example of how far exploiters will go to make a buck off the back off someone else work. While there was very little profit margin doing this, they still did, because guess what, there was some form of profit involved !
In STO, the sky really is the limit with the tradable currencies. And made even easier since it's economy revolves around one item as you say; The Master Key. To deny that there is ANY market manipulation going on in STO is just as foolish as me, blowing the manipulation way out of proportion.
So again, where's the black market getting their currency ? If everything is clean and above board in STO ?
If the lockbox ships arent needed/necessary, it truely doesnt impact game play. why fuss about the price of a gimic/luxury item? If people will pay stupid high prices for extremely rare items, let them! Should we be crying shenanigans on the price of rechargable shield batteries too?
As far as someone having 300 million, not that long ago, I sold off all of my spare Romulan Boffs that I picked up leveling my Rommie. 6 boffs made me 50 mill' EC at the lower going rates. Add that to all of the items you pick up in drops, mission rewards, etc. . Selling valuable ones on the exchange and selling the rest to vendors, 300 mill isnt hard to imagine if someone builds it up after several months.
"1) The STO economy is mostly centered on a single item, the [Master Key], the key used to open the many lockboxes which contain valuable and desirable loot."
You mean to tell me there is no Grey/Black Key market going on in STO ?
100% is above board and clean of any manipulation ?
Going back to your very important notation.
"The STO economy is mostly centered on a single item. the {Master Key]."
It's pretty simple, control the Key market, control the exchange. Key manipulation itself can send shockwaves throughout the economy. And have repercussions on the price of everything in the game.
Any well Organized group could mount an assault on the master key market.
They don't even need to control other aspects of the market, like traits or ships, that's secondary and not nearly as important to the economy structure then the master key.
Now, yes, I may have blown the manipulation of the market out of proportion, but the point I was trying to make is that if enough individuals form a cooperative, they could easily manipulate the price ranges of everything in the game through the control of the key market.
By either working in collusion with a large circle of players or employing the use of Bots to buy up any key below a certain price point.
(go ahead, have another good laugh) ill wait until you catch your breath....
Now that is out of your system, tell me why that is so hard to believe ?
Even if the bot is detected and account banned, another could easily be created to start the cycle a new.
You mean to tell me, this isn't going on ? At all ??? And I'm just being paranoid ?
Okay, maybe so, but, riddle me this Mr. Riddler, where's the black market EC coming from ?
Its coming from somewhere, or I wouldn't see the spamming in game from EC seller sites on a daily basis.
In addition to the EC seller site spam I see daily, I can assume they make some kind of profit or I wouldn't have seen these people spamming the chats for 3+ years (since I joined the game). No profit, no reason to continue spamming.
So that leads me to believe that these sites are either semi profitable (enough to keep the charade going) or massively profitable.
So it's clear they've got the currency to spare.
So where'd they get all their EC if you know so much about the economy ?
IMO it's coming from the manipulation of the Key Market.
Look, I'm good myself, I don't need anything atm in game, and if I do, I'll just whale it. So the price points don't really matter to me. I don't care what the cost of a key is or a certain ship is.
All I'm doing here, is putting forth a plausible scenario as to what is going on/influencing the inflation in STO's economy.
Name me 1 mmo that doesn't have a black market ? (an mmo where you can earn RL money currency in game, with game currency exchange - or trade it). There are none !
Where do you think the term gold farming came from ?
And why do you think people spend the time doing it ? Because there is profit to be made from games that have tradable currencies.
The only exceptions would be games that don't have tradable currency.
Like one example, War Thunder, everyone has access to the same planes and tanks, they are leveled and upgraded with battle points essentially, you play, you earn those battle points. But if you want the specialty planes and tanks, you must buy them with RL currency. (there are several per faction)
There are no specialty vehicles in the game that you can buy with battle points, there is no battle point/RL currency exchange.
There are no Lockboxes or master keys or any other form of gambling.
There are no trades, or exchange to buy these things for in game battle points.
Therefore there is nothing to exploit.
The closest thing I've seen in that game to market manipulation, were people trying to sell russian IP address's to North American client's.
By doing this, the buyer of game currency could get a better return on their dollar as the Russian cost ratio per rupple/dollar to in game RL currency was far more favorable then the American cost ratio per dollar to in game RL currency. But that is just an example of how far exploiters will go to make a buck off the back off someone else work.
While there was very little profit margin doing this, they still did, because guess what, there was some form of profit involved !
In STO, the sky really is the limit with the tradable currencies. And made even easier since it's economy revolves around one item as you say; The Master Key.
To deny that there is ANY market manipulation going on in STO is just as foolish as me, blowing the manipulation way out of proportion.
So again, where's the black market getting their currency ? If everything is clean and above board in STO ?
The problem with collusion is that you need to get all the people doing it to stay on side, and its very hard to limit the benefits of collusion just to that group.
Like, if 5 guys are colluding to push up the price of keys, and one of the guys says TRIBBLE it, i'm selling under their noses, he gets money at their expense, the rest lose money to him.
Also, the problem with defending a price fix (buying up everything under the price you want to fix, hoping you can sell it at a profit afterwards) is that it gets more and more expensive over time, and also more and more risky. And the money you pay to defend the fix translated to profits for other people who aren't helping you, but undermining you. If you try to push a price from 4m to 5m, anyone who sells in the high 4m range, to you, is profiting from your work and your investment. Also anyone undercutting your 5m price.
The market price, especially for keys, reflects a very broad supply/demand consensus. One guy, or a group of guys, buying up keys -but not using them- doesn't really increase the demand or decrease the supply. If they want to turn around and sell the keys again at a profit, they go right back into the market. They were never consumed, the supply goes right back up.
If you want to understand why there are across the board price shifts, look at fundamental stuff, facts about the game. What's changed?
Admiralty is a big one. Its generating more ec, raising the ec supply and causing inflation. It's also made pretty much every lockbox more profitable to open.
Mirror ships used to be on the very edge of vendor trash. Now they are worth millions of ec. This is an increase in the expected value of opening any lockbox, lockboxes suddenly became more valuable to open. It's not surprising key prices would go up until there was equilibrium again.
Because the game has ec inflation, we should expect that key prices will always be going up. They are, and ec inflation explains it. When lockboxes become more valuable to open, we should expect key prices to go up. Lockboxes did become more valuable to open, and that also explains key prices being up.
Anyway, the words 'market manipulation' are not some talisman that condemns STO. Repeating those words does not have any effect as an invocation. Can people try to fix prices? Sure. Does it matter much? No. Why? There's no way to control the supply for items in sto, everything has just about limitless supply, and other people will profit from your labor, robbing you of the benefits.
Fair enough. I'm not necessarily arguing your views on how the economy works and fluctuates.
In fact everything you've said thus far makes good sense.
But what I'm still having a hard time with, is the EC seller sites, and how they acquire their bankroll. (Not sure why I keep coming back to this, except that I feel its having "some" impact on the game)
But...I suppose you wouldn't know for certain anyway, and we could only speculate on the subject at hand.
Unless however, you have some ideas on it, and wish to share them, since you seem to know more about the economy then most, I'd be interested to hear your theory...
If not, well, just disregard. I understand if you don't wish to speculate.
If the lockbox ships arent needed/necessary, it truely doesnt impact game play. why fuss about the price of a gimic/luxury item? If people will pay stupid high prices for extremely rare items, let them! Should we be crying shenanigans on the price of rechargable shield batteries too?
As far as someone having 300 million, not that long ago, I sold off all of my spare Romulan Boffs that I picked up leveling my Rommie. 6 boffs made me 50 mill' EC at the lower going rates. Add that to all of the items you pick up in drops, mission rewards, etc. . Selling valuable ones on the exchange and selling the rest to vendors, 300 mill isnt hard to imagine if someone builds it up after several months.
I think you misunderstood my post completely. I'm not complaining about the prices, even though I personally don't like paying them(but I do when I can save up enough EC if I want something badly enough). The shenanigans I was calling was on Mr. Hypocrite,(@beameddown) who complains about the "exchange trolls" who make their money from trading/selling. He was able to drop 300 million EC on upgrade weekend after complaining about the high prices, but yet anyone else who has this kind of EC must be a troll/exploiter. No shenanigans on the prices, even though they are high. When taken into consideration that someone probably used ALOT of RL money(or got REALLY lucky) I have no issues with the prices of ships and other lockbox/lobi items.
I personally sell an item that I craft, with materials I get just from playing, that everyone wants to have in order to improve their gear. Some don't want to invest the time in R&D, so I take that pain away and make those items accessible to them...for a fee, of course. My profit margins aren't huge, by any means, but I can make enough to buy items I want, i.e., the high priced shinies. I always sell at the same price, all the time, usually undercutting other sellers, in an attempt to make those products available to everybody, whether a casher or F2P. I then use the profits to buy myself something I want, usually a ship/trait/doff. I absolutely DO NOT belong to any kind of shadowy cabal, buying up everything and hoarding it for later re-sale, according to a delusional poster from this thread. I DO NOT buy up the items that are priced below mine, so that mine will sell. Mine stay on the exchange(albeit not for very long) until they sell. I'm just a normal player who found a way to make EC from the exchange to buy the shiny stuff, and now these idiots want to take that away, or somehow penalize me, because they're too lazy/ignorant/entitled to do the same thing.
People need to realize that this game takes time, it's not a FB game, where you play for 10 minutes then logout for the day. To complete a reputation line, without a sponsorship token, takes 40 days. Then, you need marks/elite marks to get the gear from the rep line. This is not a short term game, nor was it designed to be one. If you want those shiny things, be prepared to invest the time it takes to get it. If you don't have that kind of time, then I suggest you not even attempt this game, or any others like it. They also require a time sinkhole to play and you won't get their shiny stuff in a week either. I want new players to join and enjoy the game as much as I do, but they need to understand what the game is, and how long it takes to get some of the things they want to have. This game is not instant gratification, and never will be. Either you accept that fact and just play the game the way it's designed and presented to us, or you move along and find something else. Enough whining about exchange prices/grinding/time-gates. Play or don't play, the ultimate decision is yours to make.
Instant gratification is that, instant, buying a ship off of the exchange IS instant. The effort to try to have Cryptic force the prices down so new players can readily buy it is forcing instant gratification even more so. Whats even worse is that the impression that lockbox ships/items are required to be competitive is entirely false, which makes the whole debate worse.
Your basic point of view, as stated is the the "greedy exchange people" have jacked prices so high for lockbox ships/items that a new player cant be competitive. If a new players saw this, and believed it, that statement disincentivizes them to play. The fact is that a new player doesnt need lockbox stuff to compete. One can easily buy ships that are just as effective, without all if the fluff and exclusivity of the lockbox ships. Consoles/weapons? Even if one hasnt ground out all of the rep' items, theres some pretty good stuff alongside those, plus old fashion energy type tac consoles and similar eng and sci consoles are still quite effective and readily available as drops, and its not insane to get those to mk xiv.
How long should a player take on that situation given? three to six months (leaning closer to six) where its really clicking, but it also shouldnt take depending on lockbox stuff to do it either. Insisting that new players need lockbox stuff is a disservice to them.
Instant gratification is that, instant, buying a ship off of the exchange IS instant. The effort to try to have Cryptic force the prices down so new players can readily buy it is forcing instant gratification even more so. Whats even worse is that the impression that lockbox ships/items are required to be competitive is entirely false, which makes the whole debate worse.
Your basic point of view, as stated is the the "greedy exchange people" have jacked prices so high for lockbox ships/items that a new player cant be competitive. If a new players saw this, and believed it, that statement disincentivizes them to play. The fact is that a new player doesnt need lockbox stuff to compete. One can easily buy ships that are just as effective, without all if the fluff and exclusivity of the lockbox ships. Consoles/weapons? Even if one hasnt ground out all of the rep' items, theres some pretty good stuff alongside those, plus old fashion energy type tac consoles and similar eng and sci consoles are still quite effective and readily available as drops, and its not insane to get those to mk xiv.
How long should a player take on that situation given? three to six months (leaning closer to six) where its really clicking, but it also shouldnt take depending on lockbox stuff to do it either. Insisting that new players need lockbox stuff is a disservice to them.
This. Just this right here.
Sums up my feelings without the (perceived) anger by me. I'm actually quite pleasant by nature but sometimes the posts here just yank my chain. I actually don't harbor any bad feelings towards anyone in the game and only want people to play and enjoy as much as I have over the last 3 years.
Is this game perfect? No, not by a long shot. I would like to see some changes made, such as a better system explaining builds/boff skills and the like so new players have a better understanding of the systems. Unless a newbie joins a helpful fleet, it is difficult to get answers about the basics. I've seen newbies try to ask simple questions in local/zone chat and get completely flamed by trolls, which is something that would certainly chase me away from the game way before I started worrying about exchange prices. This concerns me more than somebody jacking up prices on unnecessary items. If more people were to actually help new players, this would go a long way towards increasing our player base, which we need to continue playing.
I'm open to ideas on game improvements, if they make sense. Changes to the exchange seem to be pretty low on the list to me at this point in time. Not only that, but is anyone at Cryptic/PWE actually listening? I see many good ideas put forth by players in the forums but how many have actually been implemented ingame? We see testing done on Tribble server, players report bugs/broken mechanics and yet they roll them out anyway, in the process breaking other things that were WAI. These are the issues that should cause concern for players who care about the game and it's long term survivability. These are supposed to be the official forums, but other than Bort, it's rare to see any interaction between devs and players. If they're not listening, we can all rage at each other until the cows come home and it won't do a bit of good.
I think you've pretty much hit the head on the nail. Learning curves are based off of, wait for it... Learning!
The exchange lockbox ship/item prices arent the limiting factor for new players becomming competitive/better, its the lack of education. Give someone, who doesnt know what they are doing, nice shineys, and you'll get a guy who doesn't know what they are doing with nice shineys that is poorer than before he/she bought said shineys.
Forcing the slashing of exhange prices would only make shineys cheaper, not players any better, they will still be less competitive than the more experienced player who DOESN'T have nice shiney lockbox items.
This game is time-intensive and people should realize that coming in. Without a credit card it will take quite some time to get the shiny stuff that you don't even NEED to play the game.
A couple years ago I calculated how much real money you 'make' by converting Dil to Zen. It was less than a dollar per hour (30 to 70 cents, I forget exactly). So yeah, you're gonna work a bit to earn that $30 ship. And that was back when the Dil/Zen ratio was a better than it is now.
So even if you're working at McDonald's for minimum wage, you'd be better off picking up a few extra hours of work over grinding Dil. Just sayin'.
Comments
Sounds like a full time job.
#1 The profanity isn't necessary, counterproductive and has been flagged.
#2 The jokes on you, I do not own a single drop box ship, never tried to even get one. The ships I have are Zen store ships paid with either my lifetime membership stipend, or money that I have spent. Only two of my toons are using fleet weapons, (and wouldve been better off crafting/levelling a set) and all but one use the Borg set, all but one are still running MKXII's. I could replicate any of these builds from level one within three months if I played every night, or at least every othernight. A new player, taking into account a learning curve and the thouht that they would ask questions in game and try to learn in the forums, lets put them at 5-6 months (without dedicated instruction).
So yes, when I see people whining about lock box shop prices on the exchange being too high, and that "they" can't have a good build without a lock box ship, et al., youre darn right I see people behaving like they are entitled, and that I do call them out on it. Lock box ships and epic gear just aren't needed for a great/competitive build, and you dont need to spend a fortune at the exchange either.
As far as time for a new player to build up, it shouldnt be near-instant gratification, it should take time to get and endgame high quality build. if they ask questions and find a good fleet, the learning curve will change to be favorable.
Let the whales whale, if people are ridiuclous to pay stupid amounts for a lockbox ship or keys in the exchange, let them, the top of the line players will still mop the floor with them, while the elites drive T5 ships and MKXII gear( if the chose to do so).
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first: great write up
second: I got money, I know how to make money in this game, I got ALL the high end gear I want with cash to spare, and....
and its already been pointed out COUNTLESS times on the forums here that NONE of the high end gear is even needed for the content even elite content...
SO THAT ALONE is proof this TRIBBLE is way over priced
look, it boils down this simple-
market trolls drove the sto economy off the cliff, they even recently tried begging for a EC cap increase cause they don't have enough pockets to stuff the money in and want to fleece the player population even more on the exchange LOL
again, to be clear: sto is an anomaly in regards to the BULK of the MMO games out there when your talking character progression and gear
-you got no high end content that requires ANY HIGH END GEAR
-you got a market that ACTS like this TRIBBLE is required
-you got a playerbase that by enlarge is poor with their cash being funneled through a handful of market trolls that don't drop a dime in this game
-you got the best ways of making cash in this game being exploits, market trolling, multi toon grinding, or credit card swiping
-you got new players faced with the FACT that the best way to get access to any high end gear is simply NOT to spend time playing their main toon LOL
LOL I call shenanigans!
something should be done about this is all im saying..
I use to be able to advice players on builds... the grind was do able, the credit swipes 50-100 bucks tops...
Do you even read what you write? As has been stated many times in this thread, those high priced items are NOT NEEDED to play the game. You just admitted it yourself in the post above. If these things aren't NEEDED, then why all the QQ'ing? This is a case of people just WANTING things for nothing, that others got through playing/grinding or using their RL money, which is THEIR money and not subject to your scrutiny. If someone wants to drop $1000 a month on this game, that's fine with me, because it has absolutely zero effect on my or anyone else's ability to play/enjoy the game. What it does do,however, is allow the company to pay for employees to work on the game and keep it running, which again is fine with me. Then, they open lockboxes to get the things that you even admitted are NOT NEEDED, put them on the exchange for a price they want to sell it for and wait for players to either: decide that's too much, in which case the item sits there and doesn't benefit the person at all, or, a player says"hmm...I do WANT that and it's kinda high priced but I can't spend any RL money so I'll buy it on the exchange". A very simple premise, and one that allows all people to play for free, because Cryptic gets paid and keeps the game going, and players that would otherwise have no possible way to get those items can get them, even though they don't NEED them.
Then, you complain about people swiping their cards to do those things, but yet you used to advise new players that they had to drop $50-$100, along with a "do-able" grind? Hypocrite much? No one has to drop any RL cash on this game at all, unless you WANT(boy, that's a bothersome word, isn't it?) something, or you WANT to support the game, and keep it running. My suggestion to you is to look up the definitions of the words want/need and decipher the differences between them.Also, check out "hypocrisy" while you're there.
I hold no animosity towards anyone in the game, whether they're a casher or F2P, and I encourage all players to search for ways to improve ingame. I have and do help new players to the game, whether it's through basic ship build questions/boff skills, and have even used my own EC to buy players a ship to help them on their way, and will continue to do so, while I have the resources available to me. As I stated in a previous post, I DO NOT like paying the prices for those high end shinies and I don't NEED them, so I use my own free will and just refuse to buy. All players have the same choices, and refusal to buy at the prices being proffered are the way to make the totally UNNEEDED shinies drop in price. Then, when the price has dropped to a level I deem do-able, I'll buy that ship/doff/console that I WANT, but don't actually NEED.
Apologies for all the capped words, but apparently some people haven't figured out the meanings of those words yet, and I felt the NEED(LOL) to emphasize them for clarity.
Btw, I see you were able to drop 300 million EC during the upgrade event. Good for you, and I applaud your efforts to improve. But yet, after reading through your posts about EC trolls, isn't 300 million EC alot to have?
Think I'll call shenanigans on that.
#1 Im obviously not the one taking it so personally, for I'm not the one throwing profanity and personal statements at not on me, but others who have a different point of view than yours.
#2 I've been saying the whole time that lockbox ships arent needed to be competitive in this game. complaining about the economy and calling for Cryptic/PWE to force down the prices of the economy, so people can buy cheaper lock box ships is absolutely a call for instant gratification. Explain to me how lockbox ships are a "need" to be competitive when people are r rackingp up high dps and PvP victories without them?
#3 I am wholeheartedly for the exchange being no-one business, by me taking words up against those who demand Cryptic to take pricing control actions is to defend transactions being between buyer and the seller, those who don't like the prices being offered have had thier say by not buying the product (either being able to afford it or not).
#4The same people that are complaining about the prices also have the option to pursue lockbox ships by buying keys and getting them on thier own but they chose not to, why is it that I should feel empathy for people that cant afford to buy a lockbox ship on the exchange when they didn't chose to go the other route (the route which many sellers got thier wares they are selling on the exchange), especially when I dont have, cant afford (don' need) lock box ships myself?
#5 How is it not asking for instant gratification when people want Cryptic to force down prices?
A tax on dilitium will do no good IMO either as it is already capped at 8k (plus some odd bonuses if you meet the criteria) already.
Honestly at this point the only way to "fix" the economy is to catch people cheating and report the EC sellers as that as far as I am aware is a TOS violation. Sadly I don't think Cryptic even pays attention to those.
For a new player to be able to make EC off the current state of the game is really hard. They're better off grinding the reps and making their own gear from the R&D system. Too many EC whales using multiple toons to push prices down and push anyone in their way out.
Glad you got a laugh from my previous post.
But you said it yourself;
"1) The STO economy is mostly centered on a single item, the [Master Key], the key used to open the many lockboxes which contain valuable and desirable loot."
You mean to tell me there is no Grey/Black Key market going on in STO ?
100% is above board and clean of any manipulation ?
Going back to your very important notation.
"The STO economy is mostly centered on a single item. the {Master Key]."
It's pretty simple, control the Key market, control the exchange. Key manipulation itself can send shockwaves throughout the economy. And have repercussions on the price of everything in the game.
Any well Organized group could mount an assault on the master key market.
They don't even need to control other aspects of the market, like traits or ships, that's secondary and not nearly as important to the economy structure then the master key.
Now, yes, I may have blown the manipulation of the market out of proportion, but the point I was trying to make is that if enough individuals form a cooperative, they could easily manipulate the price ranges of everything in the game through the control of the key market.
By either working in collusion with a large circle of players or employing the use of Bots to buy up any key below a certain price point.
(go ahead, have another good laugh) ill wait until you catch your breath....
Now that is out of your system, tell me why that is so hard to believe ?
Even if the bot is detected and account banned, another could easily be created to start the cycle a new.
You mean to tell me, this isn't going on ? At all ??? And I'm just being paranoid ?
Okay, maybe so, but, riddle me this Mr. Riddler, where's the black market EC coming from ?
Its coming from somewhere, or I wouldn't see the spamming in game from EC seller sites on a daily basis.
In addition to the EC seller site spam I see daily, I can assume they make some kind of profit or I wouldn't have seen these people spamming the chats for 3+ years (since I joined the game). No profit, no reason to continue spamming.
So that leads me to believe that these sites are either semi profitable (enough to keep the charade going) or massively profitable.
So it's clear they've got the currency to spare.
So where'd they get all their EC if you know so much about the economy ?
IMO it's coming from the manipulation of the Key Market.
Look, I'm good myself, I don't need anything atm in game, and if I do, I'll just whale it. So the price points don't really matter to me. I don't care what the cost of a key is or a certain ship is.
All I'm doing here, is putting forth a plausible scenario as to what is going on/influencing the inflation in STO's economy.
Name me 1 mmo that doesn't have a black market ? (an mmo where you can earn RL money currency in game, with game currency exchange - or trade it). There are none !
Where do you think the term gold farming came from ?
And why do you think people spend the time doing it ? Because there is profit to be made from games that have tradable currencies.
The only exceptions would be games that don't have tradable currency.
Like one example, War Thunder, everyone has access to the same planes and tanks, they are leveled and upgraded with battle points essentially, you play, you earn those battle points. But if you want the specialty planes and tanks, you must buy them with RL currency. (there are several per faction)
There are no specialty vehicles in the game that you can buy with battle points, there is no battle point/RL currency exchange.
There are no Lockboxes or master keys or any other form of gambling.
There are no trades, or exchange to buy these things for in game battle points.
Therefore there is nothing to exploit.
The closest thing I've seen in that game to market manipulation, were people trying to sell russian IP address's to North American client's.
By doing this, the buyer of game currency could get a better return on their dollar as the Russian cost ratio per rupple/dollar to in game RL currency was far more favorable then the American cost ratio per dollar to in game RL currency. But that is just an example of how far exploiters will go to make a buck off the back off someone else work.
While there was very little profit margin doing this, they still did, because guess what, there was some form of profit involved !
In STO, the sky really is the limit with the tradable currencies. And made even easier since it's economy revolves around one item as you say; The Master Key.
To deny that there is ANY market manipulation going on in STO is just as foolish as me, blowing the manipulation way out of proportion.
So again, where's the black market getting their currency ? If everything is clean and above board in STO ?
If the lockbox ships arent needed/necessary, it truely doesnt impact game play. why fuss about the price of a gimic/luxury item? If people will pay stupid high prices for extremely rare items, let them! Should we be crying shenanigans on the price of rechargable shield batteries too?
As far as someone having 300 million, not that long ago, I sold off all of my spare Romulan Boffs that I picked up leveling my Rommie. 6 boffs made me 50 mill' EC at the lower going rates. Add that to all of the items you pick up in drops, mission rewards, etc. . Selling valuable ones on the exchange and selling the rest to vendors, 300 mill isnt hard to imagine if someone builds it up after several months.
Fair enough. I'm not necessarily arguing your views on how the economy works and fluctuates.
In fact everything you've said thus far makes good sense.
But what I'm still having a hard time with, is the EC seller sites, and how they acquire their bankroll. (Not sure why I keep coming back to this, except that I feel its having "some" impact on the game)
But...I suppose you wouldn't know for certain anyway, and we could only speculate on the subject at hand.
Unless however, you have some ideas on it, and wish to share them, since you seem to know more about the economy then most, I'd be interested to hear your theory...
If not, well, just disregard. I understand if you don't wish to speculate.
I think you misunderstood my post completely. I'm not complaining about the prices, even though I personally don't like paying them(but I do when I can save up enough EC if I want something badly enough). The shenanigans I was calling was on Mr. Hypocrite,(@beameddown) who complains about the "exchange trolls" who make their money from trading/selling. He was able to drop 300 million EC on upgrade weekend after complaining about the high prices, but yet anyone else who has this kind of EC must be a troll/exploiter. No shenanigans on the prices, even though they are high. When taken into consideration that someone probably used ALOT of RL money(or got REALLY lucky) I have no issues with the prices of ships and other lockbox/lobi items.
I personally sell an item that I craft, with materials I get just from playing, that everyone wants to have in order to improve their gear. Some don't want to invest the time in R&D, so I take that pain away and make those items accessible to them...for a fee, of course. My profit margins aren't huge, by any means, but I can make enough to buy items I want, i.e., the high priced shinies. I always sell at the same price, all the time, usually undercutting other sellers, in an attempt to make those products available to everybody, whether a casher or F2P. I then use the profits to buy myself something I want, usually a ship/trait/doff. I absolutely DO NOT belong to any kind of shadowy cabal, buying up everything and hoarding it for later re-sale, according to a delusional poster from this thread. I DO NOT buy up the items that are priced below mine, so that mine will sell. Mine stay on the exchange(albeit not for very long) until they sell. I'm just a normal player who found a way to make EC from the exchange to buy the shiny stuff, and now these idiots want to take that away, or somehow penalize me, because they're too lazy/ignorant/entitled to do the same thing.
People need to realize that this game takes time, it's not a FB game, where you play for 10 minutes then logout for the day. To complete a reputation line, without a sponsorship token, takes 40 days. Then, you need marks/elite marks to get the gear from the rep line. This is not a short term game, nor was it designed to be one. If you want those shiny things, be prepared to invest the time it takes to get it. If you don't have that kind of time, then I suggest you not even attempt this game, or any others like it. They also require a time sinkhole to play and you won't get their shiny stuff in a week either. I want new players to join and enjoy the game as much as I do, but they need to understand what the game is, and how long it takes to get some of the things they want to have. This game is not instant gratification, and never will be. Either you accept that fact and just play the game the way it's designed and presented to us, or you move along and find something else. Enough whining about exchange prices/grinding/time-gates. Play or don't play, the ultimate decision is yours to make.
Instant gratification is that, instant, buying a ship off of the exchange IS instant. The effort to try to have Cryptic force the prices down so new players can readily buy it is forcing instant gratification even more so. Whats even worse is that the impression that lockbox ships/items are required to be competitive is entirely false, which makes the whole debate worse.
Your basic point of view, as stated is the the "greedy exchange people" have jacked prices so high for lockbox ships/items that a new player cant be competitive. If a new players saw this, and believed it, that statement disincentivizes them to play. The fact is that a new player doesnt need lockbox stuff to compete. One can easily buy ships that are just as effective, without all if the fluff and exclusivity of the lockbox ships. Consoles/weapons? Even if one hasnt ground out all of the rep' items, theres some pretty good stuff alongside those, plus old fashion energy type tac consoles and similar eng and sci consoles are still quite effective and readily available as drops, and its not insane to get those to mk xiv.
How long should a player take on that situation given? three to six months (leaning closer to six) where its really clicking, but it also shouldnt take depending on lockbox stuff to do it either. Insisting that new players need lockbox stuff is a disservice to them.
This. Just this right here.
Sums up my feelings without the (perceived) anger by me. I'm actually quite pleasant by nature but sometimes the posts here just yank my chain. I actually don't harbor any bad feelings towards anyone in the game and only want people to play and enjoy as much as I have over the last 3 years.
Is this game perfect? No, not by a long shot. I would like to see some changes made, such as a better system explaining builds/boff skills and the like so new players have a better understanding of the systems. Unless a newbie joins a helpful fleet, it is difficult to get answers about the basics. I've seen newbies try to ask simple questions in local/zone chat and get completely flamed by trolls, which is something that would certainly chase me away from the game way before I started worrying about exchange prices. This concerns me more than somebody jacking up prices on unnecessary items. If more people were to actually help new players, this would go a long way towards increasing our player base, which we need to continue playing.
I'm open to ideas on game improvements, if they make sense. Changes to the exchange seem to be pretty low on the list to me at this point in time. Not only that, but is anyone at Cryptic/PWE actually listening? I see many good ideas put forth by players in the forums but how many have actually been implemented ingame? We see testing done on Tribble server, players report bugs/broken mechanics and yet they roll them out anyway, in the process breaking other things that were WAI. These are the issues that should cause concern for players who care about the game and it's long term survivability. These are supposed to be the official forums, but other than Bort, it's rare to see any interaction between devs and players. If they're not listening, we can all rage at each other until the cows come home and it won't do a bit of good.
I think you've pretty much hit the head on the nail. Learning curves are based off of, wait for it... Learning!
The exchange lockbox ship/item prices arent the limiting factor for new players becomming competitive/better, its the lack of education. Give someone, who doesnt know what they are doing, nice shineys, and you'll get a guy who doesn't know what they are doing with nice shineys that is poorer than before he/she bought said shineys.
Forcing the slashing of exhange prices would only make shineys cheaper, not players any better, they will still be less competitive than the more experienced player who DOESN'T have nice shiney lockbox items.
A couple years ago I calculated how much real money you 'make' by converting Dil to Zen. It was less than a dollar per hour (30 to 70 cents, I forget exactly). So yeah, you're gonna work a bit to earn that $30 ship. And that was back when the Dil/Zen ratio was a better than it is now.
So even if you're working at McDonald's for minimum wage, you'd be better off picking up a few extra hours of work over grinding Dil. Just sayin'.