Different types of captians in the wrong kind of ships?

chryckan

Looking around the general opinion seems to be that STO allows you to mix captain classes and ships depending on taste without it affecting the effectiveness of a character.
But is it really true?
Would a KDF science captain in a battle cruise be as effective as a Engineer or Tac captain? Or would Engineer captain be as good in an escort as a Tac?

Do you need to use ships that supports a captain's class for him/her to get the most out of his innate abilities and skills?

questerius

chryckan wrote: »

Looking around the general opinion seems to be that STO allows you to mix captain classes and ships depending on taste without it affecting the effectiveness of a character.
But is it really true?
Would a KDF science captain in a battle cruise be as effective as a Engineer or Tac captain? Or would Engineer captain be as good in an escort as a Tac?

Do you need to use ships that supports a captain's class for him/her to get the most out of his innate abilities and skills?

Not sure if this is a discussion for the academy, but let's kick it off.
Different classes have different strengths. In general science allows de-buffing, Engineering advanced healing and power management and tactical buffs.

When you ask if a KDF science captain in a BC is as effective as an engineer or tactical then first the question needs to be ask as to what is considered effective.

General opinion on the forum has shifted to DPS or "Moar fire powar" as a measurement for effectiveness. If this is warranted or not is a debate for another time and place.

When it comes down to DPS or fire power tactical characters rules supreme with abilities as attack pattern alpha and go down fighting, science takes second place due to the ability to debuff targets with sensor scan and engineers get the sh.. ehm come in last.

However engineers have a level of survivability far greater than the other classes as well as power to spare. If only the engineers had something to really make use of that surplus power.

Science can debuff and detect cloaked ships, but as this is only moderately useful in PVP this is an under appreciated skill.

Overall there is no need though to use specific ship classes to support the innate abilities.​​

angrybobh

All depends on the build. For instance an engineer in an escort doesn't require many heals because of captain skills and can then focus more on damage. Of course the classes are not balanced and a properly spec'd tactical captain is better (in DPS terms...all that matters in space) than any other class in any ship.

turbomagnus

Not necessarily. It depends also on how the ship is equipped and what kind of Bridge Officer abilities you have, but some times you can actually get better results out of mix-and-match than straight career-ship match-ups.

For example; I've actually found that I enjoy putting Engineer Captains in Escorts because the "Miracle Worker" allows me to counterbalance the lack of Engineering and Science BOff slots, giving me an extra way to restore shields and hull, or in Science Vessels to allow me to divert more BOff slots to control abilities like Gravity Well, Tractors and Repulsors.

Science Captains, on the other hand, can 'overwhelm and devastate' if done properly - put a Science Captain with the "Photonic Fleet" ability in a Multi-Vector ship (Prometheus, Hestia, Haakona or Kara) or some other form of ship with pets (Saucer Seperation, Chevron Seperation, 'Mission Pod' seperation, hanger pets, etc.), most of which are 'Tactical' and 'Engineering' ships, add in a Call Reinforcements device (Nimbus Pirates or Delta Alliance), or if you add in the Command Specialisation with its "Command Frequency" Starship Trait...
Suddenly they can bring a lot of firepower to a party.

Don't be afraid to experiment and see what kind of combinations work for you - that's part of the fun of the game.

nebfab

It's worth noting that, as far as I know, the only thing in space combat that comes solely from your class with no other ways to obtain it is special captain powers (on the ground each class also has different skills and kits.) Space skills are the same for everybody, bridge officers are the same for everybody, and there's (as far as I know and st this moment) no class-restricted space gear. Manuals (which replaced the old "officer training") are the only thing that's also class-restricted, but they're tradeable, either between alts or on the Exchange.

Or, /cynical hat on/ think of it this way... Those ships (apart from a few special cases) cost real money. Even if you didn't pay it, somebody else somewhere bought that lockbox key or put that Zen up on the exchange. Why would Cryptic limit its sales more than it has to? /cynical hat off/

atrebates

chryckan wrote: »

Do you need to use ships that supports a captain's class for him/her to get the most out of his innate abilities and skills?

Simple answer? No.

Matching a captain to a ship doesn't give any magic 'synergy' bonuses. A captain's career makes only one difference to space combat - the four or five career skills they bring to the table. While somewhat useful, these skills won't turn a bad build good. They're just a spoonful of sugar to sweeten the latte, if you'll pardon the metaphor.

Skillpoint distribution, gear, boff choices and generally being build-savvy are what will ultimately determine how effectively your ship performs.

As far as your captain career, what happens on the ground stays on the ground. You won't be punished for choosing a ship you like just because you don't have the 'right' class.


(For disclosure, I've got two tacs in battlecruisers, a tac in a flight-deck cruiser, an engie in an escort, a sci in a cruiser, and just started another engie who is headed straight for a science ship.)

chryckan

atrebates wrote: »

chryckan wrote: »

Do you need to use ships that supports a captain's class for him/her to get the most out of his innate abilities and skills?

Simple answer? No.

Matching a captain to a ship doesn't give any magic 'synergy' bonuses.

Think this was what I was wondering about. If the careers had any synergy with the ships. I'm glad the answer is no.

nebfab

It doesn't mean that any particular captain can use any ship as efficiently as any other, though... While cruisers and escorts are similar enough that skills good for one would work for the other, this won't work with most sci ships. But it depends on your skill spec, not your career, nothing stops a tac captain from having a spec focused on controls and exotic damage.

phrenetik1

turbomagnus wrote: »

snip

Science Captains, on the other hand, can 'overwhelm and devastate' if done properly - put a Science Captain with the "Photonic Fleet" ability in a Multi-Vector ship (Prometheus, Hestia, Haakona or Kara) or some other form of ship with pets (Saucer Seperation, Chevron Seperation, 'Mission Pod' seperation, hanger pets, etc.), most of which are 'Tactical' and 'Engineering' ships, add in a Call Reinforcements device (Nimbus Pirates or Delta Alliance), or if you add in the Command Specialisation with its "Command Frequency" Starship Trait...
Suddenly they can bring a lot of firepower to a party.

Don't be afraid to experiment and see what kind of combinations work for you - that's part of the fun of the game.

beam voquv+bop+photonic fleet+fleet support=lot of fun throw in some grav wells enjoy the fireworks

gradii

Apparently the answer is unless you PvP (why would you do that to yourself) you can put any career class in any ship and do fine. I do it all the time.

admiralkogar

Howdy!

No, your career does not equal some kind of ship symbiosis. Choose what you like. My opinion is much like others you have seen already.

I would add though that trying different things can be fun and rewarding. I took a Recon Sci with my Tac officer, and I enjoy the result just fine. Cannons in front, usually ,mines aft, decent turn rate, good shields, and from a tactical standpoint, my favorite sci ship ability ... to be able to target weapons, shields, engines

I prefer this build in teams so far. I built my tactics around gravity wells, Tyken's rifts, mines in the hole, disabling a shield or engine system, and evasive maneuvers both going in, and out. Evading on the way out I just swoop right back around and select cannon targets focusing on weapons or shields primarily, and stacking in my Tac abilities for the kill. it's fun

It's a game, so it's supposed to be fun. If what your doing stops being fun, THAT is the wrong build for you. Make sure you win, but don't worry about by how much you win by if it is just for you. How much you win by only matters in teams sometimes, but usually as long as your team wins, you should be having fun helping.

Last thing ... you do need dps. Apparently it is like blood in PVE team situations, in that if you don't have it, you die! Actually you won't die, but you may wish you had. At the least, PVE may be a lot less fun for you if you don't have decent personal dps. DPS is why my sci ship has cannons instead of beams (despite the fact beams allow you to support your team from more angles), and it is why I learned how to drive backwards for short bursts so I could keep my cannons narrow field of fire on a moving target easier. Plus if they chase me, they run over my mines as I back through them.

Learn to drive backwards properly while using evasive maneuvers and you should be able to track nearly anything. Just DON'T drive backwards very long at all, because it starts to drain. Short bursts only.

Engineers can keep your escort from blowing up when it gets scratched, and Sci's can give your escort a more vulnerable target. Lots of things work fine. Just try stuff, and vary your tactics till you find what works for you. Experimentation is a lot of fun. Challenge friends to arenas, and do a post battle review. Your chat window shows what you did blow by blow. Just watch out you don't over think things so much you forget to enjoy the game.

Qapla

Ps. What westmetals above said was good. I wanted to note the reference to 'parse' and say that a lot of dps players seem to spend time 'parsing' the ship builds they use. There is a program they use and you should be able to track it down. It may save you a fair bit of trial and error if you want to find the best ship and gear to match up with your toon. I understand that many who do high dps don't bother with it, and that many do, and you should know that option is available. I'd ask westmetals where to look for it, since I don't remember. There are dps groups though, and I'd wager if you ask around, someone will point you to one. Me, I don't need a gold medal every time I run. If I am last place at the Olympics, well heck, at least I made it to the Olympics and had fun! Know what I mean

Qapla again.

shadowwraith77

atrebates wrote: »

chryckan wrote: »

Do you need to use ships that supports a captain's class for him/her to get the most out of his innate abilities and skills?

Simple answer? No.

Matching a captain to a ship doesn't give any magic 'synergy' bonuses. A captain's career makes only one difference to space combat - the four or five career skills they bring to the table. While somewhat useful, these skills won't turn a bad build good. They're just a spoonful of sugar to sweeten the latte, if you'll pardon the metaphor.

Skillpoint distribution, gear, boff choices and generally being build-savvy are what will ultimately determine how effectively your ship performs.

As far as your captain career, what happens on the ground stays on the ground. You won't be punished for choosing a ship you like just because you don't have the 'right' class.


(For disclosure, I've got two tacs in battlecruisers, a tac in a flight-deck cruiser, an engie in an escort, a sci in a cruiser, and just started another engie who is headed straight for a science ship.)

Well said explanation here!

chryckan wrote: »

atrebates wrote: »

chryckan wrote: »

Do you need to use ships that supports a captain's class for him/her to get the most out of his innate abilities and skills?

Simple answer? No.

Matching a captain to a ship doesn't give any magic 'synergy' bonuses.

Think this was what I was wondering about. If the careers had any synergy with the ships. I'm glad the answer is no.

Nope, just think of yourself, as a glorified Boff, and everything will be hunky dory!

theraven2378

My Tac flies all kinds of ships, a tac in a sci ship can be very dangerous

admiralkogar

coldnapalm wrote: »

You are assuming some wrong things. You are assuming that all three captains are equal. They are not. Tact rules the sky and engineers rule the ground and science...well science is screwed. So a ship flown by a tact captain will be better then one flown by and engineer or science captain.

Now, you assume that the classes of ships are equal. Escorts are best...followed by science. Cruisers are the worst of the bunch. This is because the meta of this game is DPS solves EVERYTHING and it solves it FASTER.

So basically no matter what ship you fly, use a tact capt. No matter why kind of captain you are, fly an escort (or tact aligned ship...like the valdore type warbirds). This of course assumes no PvP.

I have some of my best fun with an Engineer in a plain wrapper K'tinga, and I have been able to beat T5 ships in PVP enough of the time to feel good with my build. High DPS can't solve one problem that I have seen in this game, and that is the fixation so many people have developed on doing high DPS over the enjoyment of other things!

Sure if you want to experience the game as series of instantaneous victories, you can find plenty of high dps builds, and throw some Kemocite in for good measure. But you will be missing out if you have a deeper interest in the Star Trek universe. Just using a few builds, and focusing on dps will make you able to win a lot of battles, but what will your prize be? More battles? The same battles, with all the players flying the exact builds everyone says are winners? Really?

My advice is don't fall into a rut. The game gives you variety. Take advantage of that.

Qapla

thetanine

Don't SCI capt's in SCI ships then get sub system targeting? There might be similar examples that would be a qualifier for this thread, but I only play TACS.​​

turbomagnus

No, Subsystem Targeting is a ship-innate skill (rank I anyway, Ranks II and up are Tac-BOff skills), so even if you put a Tac or Eng Captain in a Science vessel, they still get Subsystem Targeting.

d00mbringer

thetanine wrote: »

Don't SCI capt's in SCI ships then get sub system targeting? There might be similar examples that would be a qualifier for this thread, but I only play TACS.​​

SCI ships get sub-system targetting regardless of Captain class I believe.

admiralkogar

coldnapalm wrote: »

admiralkogar wrote: »

coldnapalm wrote: »

You are assuming some wrong things. You are assuming that all three captains are equal. They are not. Tact rules the sky and engineers rule the ground and science...well science is screwed. So a ship flown by a tact captain will be better then one flown by and engineer or science captain.

Now, you assume that the classes of ships are equal. Escorts are best...followed by science. Cruisers are the worst of the bunch. This is because the meta of this game is DPS solves EVERYTHING and it solves it FASTER.

So basically no matter what ship you fly, use a tact capt. No matter why kind of captain you are, fly an escort (or tact aligned ship...like the valdore type warbirds). This of course assumes no PvP.

I have some of my best fun with an Engineer in a plain wrapper K'tinga, and I have been able to beat T5 ships in PVP enough of the time to feel good with my build. High DPS can't solve one problem that I have seen in this game, and that is the fixation so many people have developed on doing high DPS over the enjoyment of other things!

Sure if you want to experience the game as series of instantaneous victories, you can find plenty of high dps builds, and throw some Kemocite in for good measure. But you will be missing out if you have a deeper interest in the Star Trek universe. Just using a few builds, and focusing on dps will make you able to win a lot of battles, but what will your prize be? More battles? The same battles, with all the players flying the exact builds everyone says are winners? Really?

My advice is don't fall into a rut. The game gives you variety. Take advantage of that.

Qapla

You seem to be under the rather mistaken impression I actually follow the one true way. My two mains are both sci capts. I use cannons instead of beams. I do fly a tact aligned warbird...but only because I like how it looks. I don't do a ton of damage, but I have fun and am not useless so yeah, do what you want. But the OP was talking about things as if everything in the game was equal...well they ain't. And it's not small amounts of power difference. Yes, I realize that many people seem to have forgotten that this game is suppose to be about FUN...but still there are many other who considers power fun too. Also I did mention PvP was different if you wanted to do that.

Sorry for any offense caused by my tone. I have been rather ... engaged in other discussions, and I may have forgotten what hat I was suppossed to be wearing in this one

I have to watch that. Friendly fire ... isn't!

Have a good day.

Qapla.

mustrumridcully0

gradii wrote: »

Apparently the answer is unless you PvP (why would you do that to yourself) you can put any career class in any ship and do fine. I do it all the time.

Not even PvP.

There was a time where one of the best healers among the PvP community was flying a Cruiser with his Science Officer.
Science Captains were also always popular with Escorts and Bird of Preys.
Tactical captains in Cruisers were there to bring real pressure to help overextend the healers.
And of course, while the Science Cruiser healer was good, an Engineer in a Cruiser could also cover himself better and focus even more on supporting his team.


The problem in STO right now is more that Tacticals really have the easiest time. There is so much extra healing and damage immunities available in the game due to consoles, traits and set bonuses, that the focus is pretty much all on damage buffs - and the Tactical class has the advantage there.

That doesn't mean you can't have a ton of fun with an Engineering or Science Captain, or that you can't beat advanced or elite queues.

delliboy

Next month I'm getting an intel engineering ship for my toons. Can't wait to try her out too

centaurianalpha

I've got all three career types, and they all fly the full range of ships successfully (haven't tried PvP). The fun is just in seeing how the different disciplines use equipment to solve the same problems.