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That is statistically impossible.

sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
I just queued up 8 Superior Weapons Tech Upgrades, with a 72% chance of Critical Success.

I crit 1/8 of them.

Using a standard binomial distribution, the odds of this happening are %0.07.

Don't tell me that these things aren't rigged.
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  • edited September 2015
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  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    It's not "statistically impossible", because each of them is separately randomized. Just very, very unlucky.

    Do you have any idea what a binomial distribution is?
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  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    westmetals wrote: »
    sdkraust wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    It's not "statistically impossible", because each of them is separately randomized. Just very, very unlucky.

    Do you have any idea what a binomial distribution is?

    I'm not big on mathematical terminology, no. But considering the fact that EACH of them has a 28% chance of failure, hitting that 28% chance seven times isn't IMPOSSIBLE. It's highly, highly unlikely for it to happen in eight tries, but not IMPOSSIBLE, because the "chance of success" does not carry over from one to another and eventually get you 100%.

    Here halve a calculator:
    http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

    You know know how to calculate the most common discrete probability.
  • tarastheslayertarastheslayer Member Posts: 1,541 Bug Hunter
    westmetals wrote: »
    sdkraust wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    It's not "statistically impossible", because each of them is separately randomized. Just very, very unlucky.

    Do you have any idea what a binomial distribution is?

    I'm not big on mathematical terminology, no. But considering the fact that EACH of them has a 28% chance of failure, hitting that 28% chance seven times isn't IMPOSSIBLE. It's highly, highly unlikely for it to happen in eight tries, but not IMPOSSIBLE, because the "chance of success" does not carry over from one to another and eventually get you 100%.

    This guy is right, each of those is an instance of odds in its own right, and by your own numbers you have a 28% chance of failure to achieve the crit. and they have no relation to each other.
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
    I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
  • devilment666devilment666 Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I roll a die five times and it comes up '6' each time. What's the probability of the next roll being a '6'?
  • tarastheslayertarastheslayer Member Posts: 1,541 Bug Hunter
    I roll a die five times and it comes up '6' each time. What's the probability of the next roll being a '6'?

    Assuming we're talking about a normal 6-sided dice, 1 in 6.
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
    I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
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  • postinggumpostinggum Member Posts: 1,117 Arc User
    We dont complain when we get 1% chance crits getting us an upgrade.
  • xparr15xparr15 Member Posts: 283 Arc User
    There's over 100,000 people in this game. If all of them craft 8 beam upgrades at that chance, then about 70 of them will have this happen. I'm sorry that you are one of the 70 but it is not impossible.

    As the person above me stated, it feels much worse when the unlucky odds kick in on the losing side.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,660 Arc User
    Inigo Montoya suggests using the words "highly unlikely" instead.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    Improbable not impossible.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    Beware of Gamblers fallacy
    solar_approach_by_chaos_sandwhich-d74kjft.png


    These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
  • jbmaverickjbmaverick Member Posts: 935 Arc User
    Inigo Montoya suggests using the words "highly unlikely" instead.

    INCONCEIVABLE!

    The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
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  • sdkraustsdkraust Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Here's another article that explains it for not-math inclined people:
    http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/13/drop-chance-probability/

    This is the simplified version tho where P(X>=1)
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Sorry can't quote on mobile anymore but the answer to the comment about not complaining when we get the critical at 1%, is we don't get it.

    By the way, Thread Subjects can be changed on Vanilla so if you would like to change the word 'Impossible' to 'Improbable' you can do so and cut down on the personal attacks.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    Ok now your just being an TRIBBLE, your question was answered we're done here.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    Oops, too late, change that Subject before you graduate from 'TRIBBLE' to 'jackass' in replies.

    The word you are probably looking for is 'I'm' not 'we're'.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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  • monkeybone13monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I've crafted my share of superior tech upgrades and I can tell you, there are diminishing returns on the critical chance rate when you craft multiple upgrades at the same time. Edit: The critical chance seems to reset after all projects are complete and you claim the items, but lowers again after the first 3 projects.

    If you craft the same upgrade 5 times at the same time, after the first 3 the last 2 projects will actually have a lower critical chance than the first 3. So the 4th project will have a lower chance while the 5th has a lower chance than the 4th.

    They really screwed us over with this. Along with the critical chance going down the more upgrades you craft at the same time, we can only craft 1 upgrade at a time in a single project with a chance to get 2 from each project. That's a total of 10 upgrades at a time (12 if you bought the R&D project slot from your research lab). It can take 50 or more superior upgrades just to increase the quality to epic on a Mk XIV ultra rare item depending on luck, and it takes 15 minutes for the tech upgrade projects to complete, meaning it takes hours to craft enough for a single item. :rage:

    Edit: Derp moment! It might not be diminishing returns. It's probably lower quality doffs since, for example, a green quality will give a lower critical chance than a blue.

    Still it takes to freaking long to craft enough upgrades. I can spend 2 hours crafting them for 1 character, use them all, and not have my single item upgrade. Usually my ultra rare Mk XIV stuff doesn't upgrade until it reaches close to or more than 30% chance.
  • atatassaultatatassault Member Posts: 1,008 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    I just queued up 8 Superior Weapons Tech Upgrades, with a 72% chance of Critical Success.

    I crit 1/8 of them.

    Using a standard binomial distribution, the odds of this happening are %0.07.

    Don't tell me that these things aren't rigged.
    The Chance for that happening is non zero, thus possible.
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    I just queued up 8 Superior Weapons Tech Upgrades, with a 72% chance of Critical Success.

    I crit 1/8 of them.

    Using a standard binomial distribution, the odds of this happening are %0.07.

    Don't tell me that these things aren't rigged.
    I just crafted 2 Conductive RCS with EPS in a row. Back in the day I crafted 2 CrtDx3 AP beams in a row (back then they sold for 8 million. So yes, crazy stuff can happen. 0.07% chanes is not impossible.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • atatassaultatatassault Member Posts: 1,008 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Sorry can't quote on mobile anymore but the answer to the comment about not complaining when we get the critical at 1%, is we don't get it
    I've gotten an item to upgrade quality off of one of those enchanced upgrade modules that supposedly has no upgrade chance; It probably has a very low, but non zero chance of upgrading.
  • monkeybone13monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    sdkraust wrote: »
    I just queued up 8 Superior Weapons Tech Upgrades, with a 72% chance of Critical Success.

    I crit 1/8 of them.

    Using a standard binomial distribution, the odds of this happening are %0.07.

    Don't tell me that these things aren't rigged.
    The Chance for that happening is non zero, thus possible.

    This reminds me of a recent bug report on the forums. Someone claims they have a 0% to fail/disaster on a doff assignment and yet it fails. I explained that even if you have a 0.1% chance it's still a chance and having it that low would make the bar look empty, thus giving the impression you have no failure chance at all.

    And yes, when all R&D projects have a 20%+ chance of failure it is very possible they all won't crit.

    As pointed out, the odds are individually based, not combined. Just like opening lock boxes you have a chance at a ship from each one and it doesn't mean the more boxes you open the higher your chance is. Each box has the same chance.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,886 Arc User
    sdkraust wrote: »
    I just queued up 8 Superior Weapons Tech Upgrades, with a 72% chance of Critical Success.

    I crit 1/8 of them.

    Using a standard binomial distribution, the odds of this happening are %0.07.

    Don't tell me that these things aren't rigged.

    I know how you feel as I had the same thing happen to me about less than a week ago...I feel your pain but it isn't really impossible.
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    Very low indeed. It is funny that we seem to fail those low probability fails more often than we do make the low probability successes. ;)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • rekurzionrekurzion Member Posts: 697 Arc User
    probability is only a chance of something happening. Why do so many people struggle with this basic concept?

    perhaps its the shouldhavehappened syndrome or the more prominent thiscanthappentome-itis or the dreaded butideserveit.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I think with these it's not going to average out until you have a good sample size. Perhaps the only thing on STO I've ever done sufficiently to quantify a good % is the lohlunat festival pearls. This past year the % of searches to find a pearl was almost exactly 2.5% on around 600 runs (a run is 10 searches - so 6000 searches). However, some characters got over 3% and one was around 1%

    I have made a lot of kits, however I have not kept track of crits. Anecdotally I would say 75% crit. And I'd add that putting a blue skill booster thingy makes it pretty much a guarantee. I think I've used maybe 50 of those and had only 1 failure. I've failed many times with 2 greens. I only use these on plektons and argonites.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • monkeybone13monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I think with these it's not going to average out until you have a good sample size. Perhaps the only thing on STO I've ever done sufficiently to quantify a good % is the lohlunat festival pearls. This past year the % of searches to find a pearl was almost exactly 2.5% on around 600 runs. However, some characters got over 3% and one was around 1%

    I have made a lot of kits, however I have not kept track of crits. Anecdotally I would say 75% crit. And I'd add that putting a blue skill booster thingy makes it pretty much a guarantee. I think I've used maybe 50 of those and had only 1 failure. I've failed many times with 2 greens. I only use these on plektons and argonites.

    Pearls? I think you mean Tropical Bird Eggs.

    Yeah. At first I was getting at least 1 or 2 a day then after a while I would go days without finding a single egg. Edit: Then I'd go days more without finding any after I got a couple. And this was across 3 characters I was farming the event on each time, with all 3 not being able to find any eggs for several days at a time. Heck I think I went over a week at least once without any eggs. It's been a common complaint since the first summer event back in 2013.
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