When conventional weapons don't cut it... [STF Discussion]

flash525

I've seen people suggest and request things like this before, both here on the forums, and in-game, though it's mostly just in passing. As pretty much everyone is aware, most, if not all of the existing STF missions are catered for people running high DPS builds. Escorts, Destroyers and Cruisers fare far better than Science Ships because of their additional weapon ports.

Blowing the hell out of something (as we seemingly do) is great fun, but it's repetitive and it isn't really challenging. There's very little thought behind it except point and shoot. It's mind numbing. What I (and I would think others) would like to see are stf-themed missions that don't involve DPS and quick kills, but rather something that involves crowd control and disabling enemy ships instead of destroying them.

Scenarios where we, the player are required to hold (via use of Gravity Wells, Warp Plasma, Tractor Beams etc) specific vessels in a specific location for a select amount of time. Maybe other types of missions where we're required (via our usage of Shield Transfers, Engineering Teams and Hazard Emitters etc) to heal a group of freighters (or other craft) whilst also holding off Raiders; the more ships you save/heal, the more marks you get. Further scenarios where we're required (maybe with use of Tractor Repulsion) to keep an enemy vessel away from their potential target?

Something that isn't just point, shoot and watch-go-boom. Doesn't have to be an equal number of these stf's compared to the conventional DPS ones, but enough of them to warrant interest and get people involved. Maybe a Tholian-themed one rewarding Fleet, Romulan & Nukara marks, one involving the Vaudwaar/Elachi that rewards Fleet, Delta, Dyson marks, one involving Fluidic space that rewards Fleet, Iconian & Undine marks...

apulse

I agree with you that Cryptic should create some mechanics in STF.
Take the Mirror Event as a small example. Science vessels was able to close rifts lot faster then any other class.

Though I would not recommend that you have to use and able to have X ability to do something. More in the line of give class in the game specific work details. Like "Engineers" needs to repair Freighters hull etc.

The problem with all that is that the matchmaking has the be more specific. What happens if its only Tactical class that enters the fight? Then the scenario is unwinnable.

So conclusion: Cryptic should work more with the mechanics that I said about the Mirror. Every class can do it but a specific class might do it 50% faster.

smokeybacon90

It would be great if Cryptic could think outside the box when making new space maps. Perhaps in a future ISE, transformers would have a strong passive hull regeneration, which can be diminished by subjecting it to power drain mechanics. The Nanite Spheres would have a boosted speed, but increased weakness to repels and holds, making a strong GW user a must-have in any team. Cubes and Spheres would throw out unique shield and hull drains, easily clearable by only specific boff powers, say Extend Shields and Engi Team.

Little things like this that break the usual mold would ensure a much more strategic experience, that which you see in normal MMOs where you wouldn't dare go into a raid without the correct team mixture of Tank, DPS and Healer.

apulse

smokeybacon90 wrote: »

Little things like this that break the usual mold would ensure a much more strategic experience, that which you see in normal MMOs where you wouldn't dare go into a raid without the correct team mixture of Tank, DPS and Healer.

I would looove to be a Science Class with healing spec, but that has never been needed in STO, sadly, people just complain that you don't make enough damage.

paxdawn

You are all too late. Where were all of you when these forums were being swamped by the threads demanding that advance queues to be nerfed to normal difficulty. You gotta start supporting and appearing on threads at the side of challanges rather than self entitled run amok on those threads wanting their advance or elite participation trophies rather than appearing now when all is said and done.

Assuming they do create the type of elite you all want, what prevents from those other players who wants participation trophies ask the nerf out the TRIBBLE of those elites and call everyone elitists. They nerf ISA which wasnt really that hard. How much something more complex?

My point is, you all got start appearing when it counts the most.

mustrumridcully0

paxdawn wrote: »

You are all too late. Where were all of you when these forums were being swamped by the threads demanding that advance queues to be nerfed to normal difficulty. You gotta start supporting and appearing on threads at the side of challanges rather than self entitled run amok on those threads wanting their advance or elite participation trophies rather than appearing now when all is said and done.

It's not like the previous variant of ISA didn't work well for high DPS builds. It just meant that if you didn't have one, you were very likely to be screwed.

Of course, ISA in al its incarnations always could be saved by a Science Vessel with Gravity Well and similar abilities if the team was low DPS - but there was never a scenario where a high DPS group needed that SV. And that's something to look at. (And quite frankly, it's also boring if every SV is locked into a Gravity-Well build because that's the only viable/useful high level power. What do we have Charged Particle Burst or Scramble Sensors for? Particulary infuriating in Khitomer, where the Borgified Scimitar cannot be decloakd or snooped with the very tools that exist for this purpose. Almost the only time in the entire game where you'd want to have something to deal with a cloaked ship, and it's neutered.) ​ ​​​

gradii

smokeybacon90 wrote: »

It would be great if Cryptic could think outside the box when making new space maps. Perhaps in a future ISE, transformers would have a strong passive hull regeneration, which can be diminished by subjecting it to power drain mechanics. The Nanite Spheres would have a boosted speed, but increased weakness to repels and holds, making a strong GW user a must-have in any team. Cubes and Spheres would throw out unique shield and hull drains, easily clearable by only specific boff powers, say Extend Shields and Engi Team.

Little things like this that break the usual mold would ensure a much more strategic experience, that which you see in normal MMOs where you wouldn't dare go into a raid without the correct team mixture of Tank, DPS and Healer.

Sounds great for when we can get Elite Infected space.

angrytarg

In addition to new mechanics that would require build and team diversity, one thing Cryptic needs to utilize is randomization. We probably won't get a true open-ended endgame with replayability and motivation to do so, but they could revamp the STFs in their current form to be more interesting by randomizing certain factors. For example, randomize the generator/node positions in IS freely - they can be changed around the XYZ axis. Randomize what mobs appear. Add a chance for Borg to adapt to space weapons. Add a chance for random events like when you do X a chance for random NPCs to warp in exists that either are friendly and try to help you, might get assimilated and fight against you alongside that tac cube, enemy NPCs that fight everyone warp in which maybe not ideally suited to the anti-borg set you slotted previously - mix it up a little.

Right now the STFs are literally played by heart. Nothing ever changes, high dps players play them like a carefully memorized set of dance steps, at mark x be at position y do z to maximize numbers. Break that pattern by having the generators at different positions, different enemies spawn etc.​​

sennahcherib

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

paxdawn wrote: »

You are all too late. Where were all of you when these forums were being swamped by the threads demanding that advance queues to be nerfed to normal difficulty. You gotta start supporting and appearing on threads at the side of challanges rather than self entitled run amok on those threads wanting their advance or elite participation trophies rather than appearing now when all is said and done.

It's not like the previous variant of ISA didn't work well for high DPS builds. It just meant that if you didn't have one, you were very likely to be screwed.

Of course, ISA in al its incarnations always could be saved by a Science Vessel with Gravity Well and similar abilities if the team was low DPS - but there was never a scenario where a high DPS group needed that SV. And that's something to look at. (And quite frankly, it's also boring if every SV is locked into a Gravity-Well build because that's the only viable/useful high level power. What do we have Charged Particle Burst or Scramble Sensors for? Particulary infuriating in Khitomer, where the Borgified Scimitar cannot be decloakd or snooped with the very tools that exist for this purpose. Almost the only time in the entire game where you'd want to have something to deal with a cloaked ship, and it's neutered.) ​ ​​​

the problem is the same for each profession; we are stuck to 2 kinds of gameplay; faw, part gen build that's all, the worst is the mix of both. everything else is just marginal. like you said the other science skills are almost useless. And as tac or eng captains, you don't have really the choice.

everything must be done as quickly as possible, thus impossible to stay contemplate the enemies under the effect of scramble sensor.
personally i would agree to throw all my gears in a trash, if i could have a better gameplay.

kyrrok

angrytarg wrote: »

In addition to new mechanics that would require build and team diversity, one thing Cryptic needs to utilize is randomization. We probably won't get a true open-ended endgame with replayability and motivation to do so, but they could revamp the STFs in their current form to be more interesting by randomizing certain factors. For example, randomize the generator/node positions in IS freely - they can be changed around the XYZ axis. Randomize what mobs appear. Add a chance for Borg to adapt to space weapons. Add a chance for random events like when you do X a chance for random NPCs to warp in exists that either are friendly and try to help you, might get assimilated and fight against you alongside that tac cube, enemy NPCs that fight everyone warp in which maybe not ideally suited to the anti-borg set you slotted previously - mix it up a little.

Right now the STFs are literally played by heart. Nothing ever changes, high dps players play them like a carefully memorized set of dance steps, at mark x be at position y do z to maximize numbers. Break that pattern by having the generators at different positions, different enemies spawn etc.​​

Adaptation to space weapons? I must veto that one out of hand. Smarter AI is one thing but making it impossible to win is a non-starter for me.

lucho80

paxdawn wrote: »

You are all too late. Where were all of you when these forums were being swamped by the threads demanding that advance queues to be nerfed to normal difficulty. You gotta start supporting and appearing on threads at the side of challanges rather than self entitled run amok on those threads wanting their advance or elite participation trophies rather than appearing now when all is said and done.

Assuming they do create the type of elite you all want, what prevents from those other players who wants participation trophies ask the nerf out the TRIBBLE of those elites and call everyone elitists. They nerf ISA which wasnt really that hard. How much something more complex?

My point is, you all got start appearing when it counts the most.

Everyone complained and asked for better NPC AI. Unfortunately, better NPC AI requires way more developer time than a simply giving them more HP and resistance.

The resistance part pretty much killed the role of science in Elite queues. You need 3 super drain ships (450 flow caps) spamming all Tykens 3, tgt subsys 3, energy siphon 2, and plasmonic leech, just to bring down one subsystem. Since DPS is required to finish a Elite space STFs, the only science permitted now is part gens damage and gravity wells for CC.

leemwatson

kyrrok wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

In addition to new mechanics that would require build and team diversity, one thing Cryptic needs to utilize is randomization. We probably won't get a true open-ended endgame with replayability and motivation to do so, but they could revamp the STFs in their current form to be more interesting by randomizing certain factors. For example, randomize the generator/node positions in IS freely - they can be changed around the XYZ axis. Randomize what mobs appear. Add a chance for Borg to adapt to space weapons. Add a chance for random events like when you do X a chance for random NPCs to warp in exists that either are friendly and try to help you, might get assimilated and fight against you alongside that tac cube, enemy NPCs that fight everyone warp in which maybe not ideally suited to the anti-borg set you slotted previously - mix it up a little.

Right now the STFs are literally played by heart. Nothing ever changes, high dps players play them like a carefully memorized set of dance steps, at mark x be at position y do z to maximize numbers. Break that pattern by having the generators at different positions, different enemies spawn etc.​​

Adaptation to space weapons? I must veto that one out of hand. Smarter AI is one thing but making it impossible to win is a non-starter for me.

Borg Adaptation is missing from Space. This is a well established ability from canon that they are missing! They only have it on the ground, so why not space!? What's wrong with having a refrequency ability in space?? The Borg need to be threatening, just as they are in canon.

angrytarg

kyrrok wrote: »

Adaptation to space weapons? I must veto that one out of hand. Smarter AI is one thing but making it impossible to win is a non-starter for me.

You'd simply have to refrequence your wapons like you do on ground or ooptionally use auto-frequencing weapons that could be introduced via the Borg reputation (those orange/blue phasers from Best of Both Worlds for feds and a green/red oscilliating disruptor for KDF maybe). Outside of those weapons it pays having different types of weapons in the team so they can't adapt to all weapons equally. Yes, this means a forced break in continously spamming BFAW but that is a no brainer if you want to make the game more interesting. There cannot be innovation while stalling in the current status quo forever.​​

lizwei

Basically I'm seeing a lot of people wanting to punish groups for not specifically bringing along their toys.
You claim you want skill, but all you really want is for your specific set of abilities to feel more useful than they already are and to hell with other people.

The queues in STFs are dead as it is without forcing arbitrary class and skill requirements like some TRIBBLE-backwards pseudo-MMO trinity.

Oh, and the BFAW whining has gotten way out of hand and is grossly exaggerated.
If you want to blame anything for people popping STF objectives in 5 seconds flat, blame mark XIV epic gear generated through an obnoxious grind/pay2win system, and blame STF design that specifically requires such high level firepower to progress through (e.g. Gateway to Greth'or, Herald Sphere, Battle of Korfaz).

melineaaele

flash525 wrote: »

Escorts, Destroyers and Cruisers fare far better than Science Ships because of their additional weapon ports.

Not entirely true, its just easier rocking FAW:

FAW Science Pilotescort
CombatLogReader—Infected Space Adv[4:25]— Dmg(DPS) —Btron 12.985.196(58.491) Lousisya 9.464.819(42.827) Efra Artek 5.144.792(26.936) Bundy R Be 3.548.651(18.579) Jason 3.158.089(16.621)

Torp Recluse T5U
CLR—Infected Space[6:56]— Dmg(DPS) —Lousisya 22.691.708(54.811) Gladia 8.421.880(20.392) Stego 2.332.378(5.634) Seth 2.196.704(5.397) Beckett 1.763.658(4.333

Torp Vesta T5U
CombatLogReader—Infected Space Adv[4:12]—Dmg(DPS) —Lousisya 12.117.792(48.278) Murker 10.358.920(41.435) Nocturnos 7.303.479(29.097) Marcos Zui 2.255.514(9.168) Ovea 1.118.888(4.457)


Hardly faring "far better"

azmodeas

[quote="lizwei;12717774"
Oh, and the BFAW whining has gotten way out of hand and is grossly exaggerated.
If you want to blame anything for people popping STF objectives in 5 seconds flat, blame mark XIV epic gear generated through an obnoxious grind/pay2win system, and blame STF design that specifically requires such high level firepower to progress through (e.g. Gateway to Greth'or, Herald Sphere, Battle of Korfaz).[/quote]

Okay stop right there please... Gateway nor Korfaz require epic mk 14 gear to complete in any way shape or form... In fact both of those can be done with Mk 12 very rare / ultra rare level gear. bare bones out of the box rep gear and fleet gear. Heralds sphere is just plain annoying too many map swaps and a general mechanic that isn't very fun to play.

Mk 12 gear with good positioning through piloting. You can complete the stf's on advanced and Korfaz without problems. Now had you said mk 14 epic gear and a minimum of consistently parsed 50K+ dps for elite Hive. I'd completly agree.

captinwh0

problem is when ever people in a team are told to use their brains then the que usually fails. have you done the cure pve queue recently?

burstorion

Sad to say this'll never happen as dps sells and its the easiest thing to program for - maximum bucks for minimum effort​​

lizwei

azmodeas wrote: »

lizwei wrote: »

Oh, and the BFAW whining has gotten way out of hand and is grossly exaggerated.
If you want to blame anything for people popping STF objectives in 5 seconds flat, blame mark XIV epic gear generated through an obnoxious grind/pay2win system, and blame STF design that specifically requires such high level firepower to progress through (e.g. Gateway to Greth'or, Herald Sphere, Battle of Korfaz).

Okay stop right there please... Gateway nor Korfaz require epic mk 14 gear to complete in any way shape or form... In fact both of those can be done with Mk 12 very rare / ultra rare level gear. bare bones out of the box rep gear and fleet gear. Heralds sphere is just plain annoying too many map swaps and a general mechanic that isn't very fun to play.

Mk 12 gear with good positioning through piloting. You can complete the stf's on advanced and Korfaz without problems. Now had you said mk 14 epic gear and a minimum of consistently parsed 50K+ dps for elite Hive. I'd completly agree.

You can complete advanced, but you won't be doing so fast, within the optional time limits.
And no, Korfaz absolutely requires high dps from high level gear, especially if you get the broken Benthan section. Sure, not as high as elite Hive, but the design is still pretty unbalanced.

The point is power creep is out of control, and so is Cryptic's pve design which basically involves shoving in as many enemies with a million billion health as they can.
It's no wonder then that players with builds and gear optimised for that completely wreck older STFs before you can fire off a single gravity well. The solution is balance, not arbitrary skill requirements to pass content.