This new hyper capacity shield, does anyone like it???

stuart1965

I built 2 of these hyper capacity shields,thought about keeping one, but when I read the details about it, I sold it.
It drains some shield power to add to the ships weapons, so stripping the ship of some protection. Its that that put me off it. To me, power from the engines to the ships weapons would be alot better, and there would still be maximum shields.
Everyones different I know, but thats my view on it. So who likes this shield??? just curious.

angrytarg

Wait, now we even have shields that buff weapons? ​​

stuart1965

I'm sure I read it correctly. that it takes some shield power to add to weapon power, so yes.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

angrytarg

At this point they should just grant a default weapon energy level of 125, fixed, for everyone then Because that's pretty much everything that counts anyway. Sorry to derail the thread but I wasn't aware of that shield.​​

dalnar83

I'm pretty sure some of the members of dps cult will like it.

mustrumridcully0

angrytarg wrote: »

At this point they should just grant a default weapon energy level of 125, fixed, for everyone then Because that's pretty much everything that counts anyway. Sorry to derail the thread but I wasn't aware of that shield.

And it actually has been that way since the release. The energy management in STO is unfortunately a failure IMO. There was never a time in this game where running full weapon power wasn't the best option for any non-Science Vessel.

Weapon Power just is so much more useful in comparison to any other power type.
If shield power was as useful as weapon power, a ship with 50 shields would blow up in 10 seconds and a ship with 125 shield power would last for 10 minutes.​​

angrytarg

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

And it actually has been that way since the release. The energy management in STO is unfortunately a failure IMO. There was never a time in this game where running full weapon power wasn't the best option for any non-Science Vessel.

Weapon Power just is so much more useful in comparison to any other power type.
If shield power was as useful as weapon power, a ship with 50 shields would blow up in 10 seconds and a ship with 125 shield power would last for 10 minutes.

Agreed. Power management should be flexible and come with trade-offs. If I run all power to weapons I deal massive damage but should die quickly and be slow. If I run all power to shields I should be very very resilent, but sacrifice my weapons and other powers for it. But we have so many items in-game that magically grant you power from nothing and allow to run all powers in overcap mode all the time - what's the point?

Power levels are as useful as crew at this point.​​

lopequil

Does it have visuals? That's really the only reason I get a new shield these days.

vecternal

I believe the intension was that high shield power would increase its hardness. That would make it actually usefull. The regeneration rate of shields is also way too low to compete with shield healing abilities.

farshore

vecternal wrote: »

I believe the intension was that high shield power would increase its hardness. That would make it actually usefull. The regeneration rate of shields is also way too low to compete with shield healing abilities.

Shield power does increase it's hardness and regeneration.

seriousdave

Remember the New Dawn trailer where she said something about being "explorers" again? Seems like the only thing we'll "explore" is how much power we can feed into the weapons before something short circuits and the ships goes down in a flaming ball of plasma.

mustrumridcully0

farshore wrote: »

vecternal wrote: »

I believe the intension was that high shield power would increase its hardness. That would make it actually usefull. The regeneration rate of shields is also way too low to compete with shield healing abilities.

Shield power does increase it's hardness and regeneration.

Yes, but not on the same level as weapon power boosts damage.

Shield power caps at about 35 % shield hardness at 125 shield power, and is at around 14 % at 50 shield power. So going from 50 to 125 gives you 21 % extra resistance.
Weapon Power at 125 will grant 250 % of the damage you deal with 50 energy.

You could try taking into account the difference in regeneration, but the base regeneration value is lower than the base damage value for weapons. (83 regeneration per facing at Standard. 80 base damage for a single weapon. 4 shield facings, but at least 6 weapons at Tier 5+ => 332 total regeneration vs 480 to 640 damage.)​​

guljarol

lopequil wrote: »

Does it have visuals? That's really the only reason I get a new shield these days.

The guys in my fleet, who tested it, say no.​​

farshore

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

farshore wrote: »

vecternal wrote: »

I believe the intension was that high shield power would increase its hardness. That would make it actually usefull. The regeneration rate of shields is also way too low to compete with shield healing abilities.

Shield power does increase it's hardness and regeneration.

Yes, but not on the same level as weapon power boosts damage.

Shield power caps at about 35 % shield hardness at 125 shield power, and is at around 14 % at 50 shield power. So going from 50 to 125 gives you 21 % extra resistance.
Weapon Power at 125 will grant 250 % of the damage you deal with 50 energy.

You could try taking into account the difference in regeneration, but the base regeneration value is lower than the base damage value for weapons. (83 regeneration per facing at Standard. 80 base damage for a single weapon. 4 shield facings, but at least 6 weapons at Tier 5+ => 332 total regeneration vs 480 to 640 damage.)​​

Weapon power also loses effectiveness based on the range to target. Even an array will lose 20% of it's power at 5 km. And you need to take into account the fact that Engine Power increases the passive evasion of a ship, increasing the general survivability and effectiveness of shields to boot.

burstorion

I expect to see a lot of faw ships exploding for the next few days....​​

kavase

farshore wrote: »

Weapon power also loses effectiveness based on the range to target. Even an array will lose 20% of it's power at 5 km. And you need to take into account the fact that Engine Power increases the passive evasion of a ship, increasing the general survivability and effectiveness of shields to boot.

First, you need to take into account that 20% power loss is taken into account regardless of power set up.

Second, you also need to take into account if something dies quicker, there is no need of improved defences at all. Also, last I checked last I checked, the values are minimal in difference in comparison to weapon power for both engines and shields.

Weapon power is the trump card of all powers expect perhaps for Aux in special circumstances. The game is heavily in favour of DPS in, well, pretty much in all factors of the game with very special and few circumstances. And it's one of the easiest things to obtain. Now apparently even easier...

kyrrok

seriousdave wrote: »

Remember the New Dawn trailer where she said something about being "explorers" again? Seems like the only thing we'll "explore" is how much power we can feed into the weapons before something short circuits and the ships goes down in a flaming ball of plasma.

I've seen the trailer too, but from what I can tell, there's little evidence there will be exploration at all. There's word that a Tholian battlezone is in the works, a new queue based on the Terran Empire, sphere builders this, Na'kuhl that, all of this is leaving me with little more than the idea that Cryptic don't know what it's doing.

keshmarch

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

Weapon Power just is so much more useful in comparison to any other power type. ​​

I honestly think that it's because STO, like many other MMORPGs, is about killing things. What do you need to do to kill things? Attack them. Sure you can tank, heal, and buff/debuff, but you NEED to attack things to kill them. Same with so many other MMORPGs.

That I think is the innate problem with MMORPGs. They hardly ever give you options to do things INSTEAD of fighting. Explore and research instead of erradicate enemies(where your aux might be more useful). Enter your starship in races(where your engine might be the most useful stat). Hell, you could even make shields a useful stat in non-aggressive survival-type settings.

As long as the game is focused on this one thing, that is, starships vs targets to kill, weapon power will always trump the rest.

mustrumridcully0

keshmarch wrote: »

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

Weapon Power just is so much more useful in comparison to any other power type.

I honestly think that it's because STO, like many other MMORPGs, is about killing things. What do you need to do to kill things? Attack them. Sure you can tank, heal, and buff/debuff, but you NEED to attack things to kill them. Same with so many other MMORPGs.

That I think is the innate problem with MMORPGs. They hardly ever give you options to do things INSTEAD of fighting. Explore and research instead of erradicate enemies(where your aux might be more useful). Enter your starship in races(where your engine might be the most useful stat). Hell, you could even make shields a useful stat in non-aggressive survival-type settings.

As long as the game is focused on this one thing, that is, starships vs targets to kill, weapon power will always trump the rest.

Shields are also only important in combat. You don't need it for exploration, you don't need it for diplomacy, you don't need it for trade.

So regardless of how combat-focused STO's gameplay is- the whole power system is supposed to be important in combat. A ship without shields is not going to deal damage for long. But low shield power doesn't lead much more likely to a ship with no shields than a ship with high shield power.

The game has healing powers just as well as it has damage powers - but shield, engine or auxiliary power play a lot less role in healing and survival than weapon power plays a role with damage.​​

orangeitis

The monkey is right. MMORPGs do nothing but act as a combat simulator in an otherwise full-fledged fictional world. World and game elements and functions are separated by combat and non-combat.

The stats on your deflector dish can't make it easier to research anomalies, the stats are just meant to increase combat functionality. Your starship hull plating only defends against damage inflicted by hostile weaponry, rather than environmental hazards. Your kinetic cutting beam doesn't help you gather mineral samples, it just helps you carve your name on an enemy hull.

And the non-combat things you CAN do is merely meant to increase your combat abilities. Why do you R&D? Either to make gear for yourself, you know, to help with combat, or to sell on the market for EC, to buy things that help with combat. Your duty officers? They're sent on missions and bring back rewards that are ultimately for advancing combat ability. Contraband exchanged for the dilithium needed to augment your combat ability. R&D materials gathered to do as described earlier in this paragraph.

And people wonder why their DEEPS or their attack speed is the most important stat about them. More attacks means more kills. More kills means you're better at the game, because that's the main goal. Hell, the whole persistent world of almost any given MMORPG is constructed to merely simulate a full, plausible world with merely implied lifestyles that are alternative to combat. And you wonder why STO Klingons are all-violence-all-the-time? It's not just Klingons. It's every protagonist in almost every MMORPG ever.

It's quite depressing, actually. Especially when you realize that almost every MMORPG has this "combat is the only important thing in our worlds" mentality. That is why I think the MMORPG industry is lacking innovation. Combat combat combat.

orangeitis

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

Shields are also only important in combat. You don't need it for exploration, you don't need it for diplomacy, you don't need it for trade.

To be fair, exploring/researching stars, certain nebulae, or other hazardous regions up-close probably wouldn't be possible without shields.

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

So regardless of how combat-focused STO's gameplay is- the whole power system is supposed to be important in combat. A ship without shields is not going to deal damage for long. But low shield power doesn't lead much more likely to a ship with no shields than a ship with high shield power.

Sure. And they are all important in combat. But they all have different levels of importance, especially given the ship type. Escorts utilize engine power for dodge tanking, Science Vessels love auxiliary to perform science shennanigans and Carriers use it to recharge hangar bays, and the various types Cruisers utilize shields to assist in tanking. But for ship types like Destroyers, they'd be nothing without their DPS.

I think the point of @keshmarch's post is to point out that even though other powerlevels are useful in their own way, it is the nature of combat-focused gameplay that is making it "the best" or "most useful".

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

The game has healing powers just as well as it has damage powers - but shield, engine or auxiliary power play a lot less role in healing and survival than weapon power plays a role with damage.​​

Can't disagree with that. But I think that if they were useful for things other than combat, that could be forgiven.

But for the record, I'm not opposed to subsystem rebalancing.


Edit: @mustrumridcully0's post showed up after mine when I refreshed, but after I posted this one, it shows my posts together. Damned glitchy board...

darkknightucf

angrytarg wrote: »

Wait, now we even have shields that buff ENERGY weapons?

Fixed. That detail is quite important.

darkknightucf

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

At this point they should just grant a default weapon energy level of 125, fixed, for everyone then Because that's pretty much everything that counts anyway. Sorry to derail the thread but I wasn't aware of that shield.

And it actually has been that way since the release. The energy management in STO is unfortunately a failure IMO. There was never a time in this game where running full weapon power wasn't the best option for any non-Science Vessel.

Weapon Power just is so much more useful in comparison to any other power type.
If shield power was as useful as weapon power, a ship with 50 shields would blow up in 10 seconds and a ship with 125 shield power would last for 10 minutes.​​

Actually, there was a time where shifting energy levels mattered. You want stronger defensive capabilities? Maximize Shield and Engine power. Better heals/Sci abilities? Max Aux power. Want to make a big punch w/ energy weapons? Divert all power to weapons and fire when ready!

The presets existed there for a reason, and they WERE utilized. You had to swap to the customized preset prior to using an ability/function in order to maximize its effectiveness. Then, Leech was introduced.....

mustrumridcully0

darkknightucf wrote: »

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

At this point they should just grant a default weapon energy level of 125, fixed, for everyone then Because that's pretty much everything that counts anyway. Sorry to derail the thread but I wasn't aware of that shield.

And it actually has been that way since the release. The energy management in STO is unfortunately a failure IMO. There was never a time in this game where running full weapon power wasn't the best option for any non-Science Vessel.

Weapon Power just is so much more useful in comparison to any other power type.
If shield power was as useful as weapon power, a ship with 50 shields would blow up in 10 seconds and a ship with 125 shield power would last for 10 minutes.

Actually, there was a time where shifting energy levels mattered. You want stronger defensive capabilities? Maximize Shield and Engine power. Better heals/Sci abilities? Max Aux power. Want to make a big punch w/ energy weapons? Divert all power to weapons and fire when ready!

The presets existed there for a reason, and they WERE utilized. You had to swap to the customized preset prior to using an ability/function in order to maximize its effectiveness. Then, Leech was introduced.....

No, there never was such a time. No matter how far you go back. The fundamental mechanics of energy levels were pretty much always the same. The only changes:
- Auxiliary power did affect turn rate once. This was switched to engine power.
- Many powers that today rely on Auxiliary didn't.
- Auxiliary power today also affects hangar recharge rate.
- Shield Power also grants shield hardness.
That's pretty much it. There was never a time of milk and honey where cats and dogs lived together and switching energy levels was important. Sure, you could always run full power to shields and minimum to weapons, or something like that, but that meant and means you're doing it wrong and are using an ineffective build.

The only class for which energy management was and is somewhat relevant has always been science vessels and carriers, because only for these ships, auxiliary affects combat effectiveness significantly.​​

angrytarg

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

(...)
The only class for which energy management was and is somewhat relevant has always been science vessels and carriers, because only for these ships, auxiliary affects combat effectiveness significantly.

Not really. One of my main characters and my most-dps char (20k+ last I checked) is my sci. You basically just turn it around and replace weapon power with aux power. There's literally no reason to change it around - weapons on sci ships (should= only work to apply procs or leech or whatever. And for that they don't need power.​​

taylor1701d

Anyone know yet what category of weapon buff it is ?
Cat 1, 2 ...?

Just curious...

Was also thinking of equipping 3 battery doffs (+10% energy damage on use of weapons battery) for +10%+10%+10%+40% (Hyper Shield)
with 3 Tac Team Buff Doffs.


wondering how that will work out.
and if its worth the doff slots.

Anyway, I've got 2 Hyper shields cooking in my R&D tab...we'll see tonight I guess.

hyefather

This is what needs to happen for this game to last. Cryptic needs to take a huge gamble the same way Squaresoft did with Final Fantasy 14. The game needs a massive reboot. This is where Cryptic fixes the Class system, UI, Power management, PVP and everything else ingame that is literally broken. I really love star trek but lets be honest, STO isn't gonna last another couple of years if the game stays in the same state that it currently is. Main reason? Ships. Ships are great but you can't expect to keep this game running FOREVER on nothing but ship sales and thats exactly what its doing right now. People are going to get tired of buying a diffrent ship when they don't really have any place new to fly it in. This game needs to go Open world. There eventually has to be new places to fly your ship other than the same old stf you've played 500x or more. This game needs a massive reboot or ..................you know what happens next.

IF a reboot was to happen, I would imagine all the people that have left sto in the last few years would return. I don't expect a complete overhaul of the graphics system to be on the level of say star citizen. This game does need something that would make you and your ships a little more interactive. Space combat needs a huge details upgrade. At least on the level of ST2:WOK and that was 30 years ago. I know this game can produce graphics that could mimic that. Zooming up close to passing ships and seeing boffs through the windows and boffs on lower decks. Maybe I'm asking too much. Maybe I'm playing to much Metal Gear V and Witcher 3 and those games have ruined me. All I know is, this game needs something and what we are getting just isn't cutting it.

taylor1701d

hyefather wrote: »

This is what needs to happen for this game to last. Cryptic needs to take a huge gamble the same way Squaresoft did with Final Fantasy 14. The game needs a massive reboot. This is where Cryptic fixes the Class system, UI, Power management, PVP and everything else ingame that is literally broken. I really love star trek but lets be honest, STO isn't gonna last another couple of years if the game stays in the same state that it currently is. Main reason? Ships. Ships are great but you can't expect to keep this game running FOREVER on nothing but ship sales and thats exactly what its doing right now. People are going to get tired of buying a diffrent ship when they don't really have any place new to fly it in. This game needs to go Open world. There eventually has to be new places to fly your ship other than the same old stf you've played 500x or more. This game needs a massive reboot or ..................you know what happens next.

Massive Reboot, maybe its needed yea ? But it wont happen here in STO. We'd need a whole new game; STO 2, on a whole new engine for anything worthwhile to be done.

orangeitis

hyefather wrote: »

Ships are great but you can't expect to keep this game running FOREVER on nothing but ship sales and thats exactly what its doing right now.

The fact is, some MMORPGs are running on nothing BUT sales and maintenance to keep the game going for years and years. But that's not what STO is doing. It has a massive amount of development invested into it, especially for the size of the dev team. It's incomprehensible to me why you'd say that's all STO is doing in comparison to other MMORPGs.

artan42

It's not my Reman shield so I won't bother.​​