test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Solution to FAW spam and fix to beam-cannon balance

deathray38deathray38 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
Goals:
- Changes as simple as possible,
- Making cannon/ torpedo builds viability closer to Beam builds

FAW 1 => Lieutenant level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl higher station)
FAW 2 => Ltc Commander level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl higher station)
FAW 3 => Commander level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl higher station)

BO 1 => Lieutenant level, effectiveness buffed to BO2 Level (no damage change at all, since old BO2=BO1)
BO 2 => Ltc Commander level, effectiveness buffed to BO3 Level (no damage change at all, since old BO3=BO2)
BO 3 => Commander level, effectiveness buffed to never-existing BO4 Level

CSV 1 => Ensign level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl lower station)
CSV 2 => Lieutenant level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl lower station)
CSV 3 => Ltc Commander, no other changes (it require 1 lvl lower station)

CRF 1 => Ensign level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl lower station)
CRF 2 => Lieutenant level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl lower station)
CRF 3 => Ltc Commander, no other changes (it require 1 lvl lower station)


RESULTS:

- BFAW require at least LT station, which is requiring to either choose lower level FAW or sacrifice higher level Tac ability
- High level FAW is restricted to dedicated TAC ships
- BO is unaffected at Lt and LtCdr levels (except name change), lack of Ensign level won't hurt many builds, while Commander BO will open area for some BO-based constructions
- Dedicated TAC ships are able to maintain CRF3/CSV3 and APO3 at the same time,
- CRF and CSV are far less costly for build, able to occupy generally underused ensign tac slot


What do You think?
Feedback please! :)
«1345

Comments

  • frontline2042frontline2042 Member Posts: 219 Arc User
    Counter idea: just make CRF/CSV take up the same boff level as FAW and normalize power drain between cannons and beams. No nerfing FAW is needed just level the playing field between cannon skills and beam skills. I'd be content with one being better than the other as long as they are within 10% damage of each other
    Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
    Let the stupid suffer
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    Proposed changes to BFAW: Disagree

    Proposed changes to Cannon Skills: Agree

    Reasoning: If you're looking to reduce 'Fire at Will Spam' this solution does not accomplish that. All it does is make it so that people are mostly spamming FAW II instead of FAW III which overall won't make that much of a difference.

    If you're really interested in reducing the usage for Fire At Will, then the answer is not to make sweeping changes, but to instead provide an alternative. Lets put aside for a second the effectiveness of Fire At Will and address the real issue, that it's the only option for beam boats. Cannon ships have an option, do you spec for single target damage (Rapid Fire) or AOE Damage (Scatter Volley.) With Beam Builds there is one option only, and that's fire at will.

    Because of the mechanics of Overload it's only a viable skill in builds that feature one beam weapon. Running Overload on a ship with multiple beam weapons is pointless. The only Beam Skill that works well for single target damage is Surgical Strikes which is only available on a very limited number of ships. Beam builds have one option and one option only and that is fire at will. If you run a beam cruiser, what choice do you have but to take Fire At Will even if you don't want to?

    The way to create parity is not through nerfs, it never has been and never will be. There have been times when Cryptic has addressed issues like this correctly and it's worked in every occasion. There was a time when Aux2Bat was the only build anyone used and it was the 'Fire At Will' of it's time. Instead of nerfing Aux2Bat, they introduced alternative options and people started diversifying their builds. Now Aux2Bat is not used nearly as much, but those that like it are stil free to use it. There was no diversity in weapon mods, everyone only wanted CritD with Pen, everything else was junk. They didn't nerf CritD, they buffed Damage and now other weapons are viable alternatives.

    The fire at will issue is the same thing. You want to reduce dependency on it, give people an option to use instead. The cannon changes you proposed are needed, there is no reason for Cannon skills to be a level higher then the corresponding Beam Skill, that needs to be changed.

    People need to get away from the idea that the way to reduce peoples dependency on a skill is to reduce that skills effectiveness. It's not, all that does is get everyone to all shift to the next best option instead and then that skill becomes the new 'problem.' The way you counter dependence on or overuse of an ability is to create viable alternatives. Every other method is treating the symptom and not the problem.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    I still think the solution to FAW is a two part solution.
    1: Make BO fire one powerful shot from all beams on a ship (give HYT and TS the same functionality)
    2: Add FBP to all NPCs that have a state of immunity or insta-heal (See CSA nanite probes and cubes, ISA and KASA gateways and transformers)

    That would create a single target alternative and make FAW spam a bad idea. On a personal note, I think the FBP idea would be hilarious.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    Nope.

    Cannons are just in bad shape now. It's the reminiscent of Escort Online times.

    Just wait till the next buff/nerf cycle.
    Tck7dQ2.jpg
    Dahar Master Mary Sue                                               Fleet Admiral Bloody Mary
  • deathray38deathray38 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    adamkafei wrote: »
    I still think the solution to FAW is a two part solution.
    1: Make BO fire one powerful shot from all beams on a ship (give HYT and TS the same functionality)
    2: Add FBP to all NPCs that have a state of immunity or insta-heal (See CSA nanite probes and cubes, ISA and KASA gateways and transformers)

    That would create a single target alternative and make FAW spam a bad idea. On a personal note, I think the FBP idea would be hilarious.

    Removing one-weapon buffs will remove any reason of mixing weapon types. BO/HY/TS will require massive nerfs in order to avoid deadly bursts from dedicated torp/beam boats, therefore adding single beam/torpedo to any ship will be obsolete.

    Mixing weapons is fun part of this game, and it should be more viable. Adding torpedoboat spam to beamboat spam is not a way to fix it.

    If anything, I would like to have an option to "link" specific abilities to specific weapons - for example linking THY to activate on selected torpedo launcher only, instead of the one fired first.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,498 Arc User
    There are several issues which have firmly cemented BFAW as it is now.

    1. Lack of a viable alternative for beams. The gap between Beam overload and BFAW is massive.
    2. Lack of damage drop off and accuracy for BFAW
    3. NPC spam. The sheer amount of small NPC ships makes it less desirable to focus on a single ship to kill.
    4. Energy use of beam arrays. Especially with the plasmodic leech BA have virtually no energy drain which means power can stay overcapped at 125 with all the extra critical chance.

    Maybe there are others, but these are the ones who are most prominent.

    If you want to fix BFAW/cannons then
    1. Rework Beam overload to make it a realistic alternative. How to do this is another question.
    2. Add a damage drop and accuracy drop to BFAW. However, this would mean an incredible nerf to BFAW and we all know how overjoyed the community would react to that.
    3. Replace large number of NPC with smaller amounts of more potent NPC (Feed back Pulse as someone mentioned?)
    4. Double/triple the energy usage for beam arrays to counter the energy gain from plasmodic leech. Again, this would be a massive nerf to beam arrays with the overjoyed response of the community to look forward to.

    Overall the answer is not to nerf BFAW or beam arrays (although it would be the most optimal solution, the community would not accept it) but reduce the energy drain / damage drop for cannons.

    Maybe even a 10-20% boost in damage for the cannons.​​
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    After pulling out my Fleet Defiant and using cannons after using beams for such a long time i found no dps issues whilst using cannons. Anything within my front arc melted as fast as beams, using either CRF or CSV.
    Now once outside my cannons arc then using cannons became an issue because of the limited coverage they give compared to beams.

    Cannons will never be on par with beams regardless of the issues people have raised

    Know issues raised
    1. Overcapping does appear to work on cannons.
    2. Power drain and recovery rate
    3. Dmg over distance loss.
    4. Firing Arc

    Here's why beams unless nerfed into complete uselessness will always be better than cannons
    1. Can be equipped fore and aft
    2. Have a 250' firing arc per single beam array, 90' with dual beam and 360' with Omni-Directional
    3. Broadsiding, because of the firing arc and ability to equip fore and aft, broadsiding a target allows if using a beam boat cruiser 8 weapons to be bared all of the same strength. Compared to a dual heavy cannon and turret user only allowing a broadside of 2/3 turrets as cannons can only fire forward
    4. Beam boats have firepower and dps more evenly spread fore,aft, starboard and port, a cannon user only has full dps fore and within a 45' arc

    So its not that BFAW is so overpowered vs Cannons its because Cannons just lack the versatility of Beams with the firing arcs they give. If you could park a escort nose front and fire happily away at a target without worrying about shields dropping, blow for blow they are both equal.

    Its a different play style to use cannons vs beams. Piloting, timing of activating skills/powers requires more thought and skill over a beam user because of the limited firing arc and often time the target is within that arc.

    Another example i'll give regarding firing arcs is i recent changed my kremin dreadnought from single beam arrays to dual beam arrays fore and omni aft. Now dual beam arrays are more powerful than single arrays. However because they only have a 90' firing arc and the ship is a slow moving brick my more powerful dual beams once outside the 90' arc are useless until i manage to get the target back into them. Does this make them useless and less powerful than single arrays. No it just means i need to fly the ship better and use my buffs with better timing.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    4. Double/triple the energy usage for beam arrays to counter the energy gain from plasmodic leech. Again, this would be a massive nerf to beam arrays with the overjoyed response of the community to look forward to.
    ​​

    With respect, this would be.. in my opinion.. a tremendous mistake.

    The benefits from the Leech console are very expensive for Feds and doing this would be a huge kick in the jewels. In my opinion, a better solution would be altering the drain from cannons to allow them to benefit as beams currently do.

    I'm a 'fed player' that uses the plasmonic leech, and in all my years of playing this game, I have never figured out how people get so much EC. The Leech for me was an enormous investment, I had to save for it for months. Honestly, this change would without question force me to quit, and I fear it would for many others as well. Even KDF Players that didn't have to save up EC for it, they still paid cash which is actually even worse. Making a change that's focused on reducing the effectiveness of the Leech console would start a firestorm of negativity.

    The leech console isn't a problem, the problem is that Cannons don't benefit from it the way beams do. That definitely should change.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    I am against restricting FAW.

    I dont understand why everything has to be at par with the optimal stuff where they are optimal at when both mentioned here are viable.

    Right now, even using the current mechanics the problem is knowledge and the community that supports it. There is a massive community supporting beams, massive knowledge available for beams. But too few for cannons and Torps.

    Also players have to stop being lazy and start discovering where cannons and torps are optimal at rather than force themselves competing with beams wherein beams are optimal at like ISA. Look at CCA for example where torps are superior than beams except one needs to discover, know and apply it. However, neither of the two DPS league records or support CCA.

    So in a sense, the current problem is the community of their respective platforms. If you spend more time complaining, that means less time discovering and less time making your platforms popular.
  • orionburstorionburst Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    To be honest, faw really is only OP when it comes to three things:

    1. Visual DPS
    2. Area effect
    3. Energy usage

    By visual dps, I mean the fact it sprays everything means it loses a lot of effective dps (ie, dps that goes to the hull) compared to cannons - but as only the total dps can be seen (as in total wasted on shield plinking and finally hull damage), this makes cannons seem far more inferior than they actually are

    This 'spray and spray' is faws weakness and strength as it effectively divides the total dps between up to eight targets, meaning the faws effective dps is lower as there is less shots to capitalise on a breached shield, while overcapping, eps, ect ensures little damage loss due to drain

    Thus, if the energy drain of beams and weapons overcap was increased (say, 12 per beam array) and decreased respectively (to say, 130), this could bring faw into line with other abilities - it would still have more visual dps than other builds (as there is no parser that can differentiate bleedthrough/hull dps and shield impact dps) but the basic damage of the abilities would be more equallised

    As to faws accuracy, the simple answer is to give the other abilities a 100% accuracy rate too​​
    Post edited by orionburst on
    344qvwl.jpg

    I'm an Arc user? Yeah, right..I'd rather eat a chainsaw, blade first
  • devilment666devilment666 Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    I'm guessing the "Nerf FAW nao!" brigade are mainly whining about it being used on escorts and not cruisers. Moving FAW up a rank is going to hurt cruiser captains a lot more than escort captains.

    Most cruisers cannot equip cannons, so how about restricting escorts from fitting beams?</sarcasm>
  • thenoname711thenoname711 Member Posts: 204 Arc User
    1. BFAW changes, disagree. FAW starts at ensign level for a reason, only exceptions between cruisers can have commander tactical(Scimitar, T.S. adapted battlecruiser) and FAW was primarily meant for cruisers in the past. Moving the ability upwards will just mean this ability on cruisers will go down by one rank and some will lose the ability to have FAW + attack pattern(every cruiser with 2+1 tac. seating configuration)
    1,5. Also remove "beam" part from the ability name. Let every energy weapon fire on maximum of two targets that are inside it's fire arc.

    2. Leave BO where it is now, it doesn't need adjustments.

    3. Move down CRF so that it starts at ensign level and remove "cannon" part from the ability name. Now beamboats will have an alternative to use instead of FAW.

    4. C:SV, leave it mostly as it is, just increase it's CD to 45 seconds, shared CD to 30 seconds and 15s with other energy weapon abilities.

    5. decrease cannon damage-drop-off-over-range to 4% like it is on beams or swap the two(8% per kilometer of distance for beams, 4% for cannons)

    Gameserver not found.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Proposed changes to BFAW: Disagree

    Proposed changes to Cannon Skills: Agree

    Reasoning: If you're looking to reduce 'Fire at Will Spam' this solution does not accomplish that. All it does is make it so that people are mostly spamming FAW II instead of FAW III which overall won't make that much of a difference.

    If you're really interested in reducing the usage for Fire At Will, then the answer is not to make sweeping changes, but to instead provide an alternative. Lets put aside for a second the effectiveness of Fire At Will and address the real issue, that it's the only option for beam boats. Cannon ships have an option, do you spec for single target damage (Rapid Fire) or AOE Damage (Scatter Volley.) With Beam Builds there is one option only, and that's fire at will.

    Because of the mechanics of Overload it's only a viable skill in builds that feature one beam weapon. Running Overload on a ship with multiple beam weapons is pointless. The only Beam Skill that works well for single target damage is Surgical Strikes which is only available on a very limited number of ships. Beam builds have one option and one option only and that is fire at will. If you run a beam cruiser, what choice do you have but to take Fire At Will even if you don't want to?

    The way to create parity is not through nerfs, it never has been and never will be. There have been times when Cryptic has addressed issues like this correctly and it's worked in every occasion. There was a time when Aux2Bat was the only build anyone used and it was the 'Fire At Will' of it's time. Instead of nerfing Aux2Bat, they introduced alternative options and people started diversifying their builds. Now Aux2Bat is not used nearly as much, but those that like it are stil free to use it. There was no diversity in weapon mods, everyone only wanted CritD with Pen, everything else was junk. They didn't nerf CritD, they buffed Damage and now other weapons are viable alternatives.

    The fire at will issue is the same thing. You want to reduce dependency on it, give people an option to use instead. The cannon changes you proposed are needed, there is no reason for Cannon skills to be a level higher then the corresponding Beam Skill, that needs to be changed.

    People need to get away from the idea that the way to reduce peoples dependency on a skill is to reduce that skills effectiveness. It's not, all that does is get everyone to all shift to the next best option instead and then that skill becomes the new 'problem.' The way you counter dependence on or overuse of an ability is to create viable alternatives. Every other method is treating the symptom and not the problem.

    ^This. Just because something needs to be fixed/brought to equal terms, doesn't mean that something else needs to be nerfed. And I totally agree that cannons/torpedoes need boost, but solution isn't nerfing beams in process.
    1. BFAW changes, disagree. FAW starts at ensign level for a reason, only exceptions between cruisers can have commander tactical(Scimitar, T.S. adapted battlecruiser) and FAW was primarily meant for cruisers in the past. Moving the ability upwards will just mean this ability on cruisers will go down by one rank and some will lose the ability to have FAW + attack pattern(every cruiser with 2+1 tac. seating configuration)
    1,5. Also remove "beam" part from the ability name. Let every energy weapon fire on maximum of two targets that are inside it's fire arc.

    2. Leave BO where it is now, it doesn't need adjustments.

    3. Move down CRF so that it starts at ensign level and remove "cannon" part from the ability name. Now beamboats will have an alternative to use instead of FAW.

    4. C:SV, leave it mostly as it is, just increase it's CD to 45 seconds, shared CD to 30 seconds and 15s with other energy weapon abilities.

    5. decrease cannon damage-drop-off-over-range to 4% like it is on beams or swap the two(8% per kilometer of distance for beams, 4% for cannons)

    I agree with everything except 4. point - CSV doesn't certainly need a nerf.
    Edit: Point 1.5 is pretty much pointless, too, since cannons already have CSV that lets them to hit more than 2 targets.
  • deathray38deathray38 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    I'm guessing the "Nerf FAW nao!" brigade are mainly whining about it being used on escorts and not cruisers. Moving FAW up a rank is going to hurt cruiser captains a lot more than escort captains.

    Most cruisers cannot equip cannons, so how about restricting escorts from fitting beams?</sarcasm>

    1. Battlecruisers, Dreadnaughts etc. can use Cannons. Modern days even majority of CMDR-ENGI ships are able to equip DUAL cannons... Yes, there are some exceptions, but cruisers have their "cruiser commands" as compensation. Some ships have pets, some have secondary defelectors and some of them can use DUAL cannons... BTW, every ship is able to use turrets and single cannons...

    2. I haven't seen any T5U-T6 cruiser without access to Lt Tactical slot...

    3. "Station level increase" will affect all ships, Non-Tac ships will be forced to use lower level version of FAW, while Tac ships will be forced to sacrifice valuable Commander Tac (APOIII) for FAWIII.

    4. Don't underestimate value of lowered level for cannon skill - It is making cannons much more accessible for non-Tac ships.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    I would use cannons on 1 or 2 characters except for the pedal to the metal trait. It makes it impossible to use cannons, stay in arc, and fly at full speed the whole mission. Now, I know I'm being stubborn but it's a good trait and I can't make myself give it up, nor stop getting the full use out of it. My solution would be at the very least to make all cannons 180 degrees. And that really wouldn't be enough - better - but still not quite as good.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    What about improving torpedoes instead? The game treats them like something special, whilst in reality they have the same mechanics from original STO but everything else around evolved...

    - Shield resitance against torps based on remaing shield strenght
    - Better mechanics for multiple launchers
    - Variants of launchers (duas, wide, omega-like etc)

    With that said, i dislike the current FAW implementation that promotes...well, boring game style.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    I too must disagree. Especially in putting beam overload in Lt/LtC/Com slots. The problem is BFAW and even then, it should be more about boosting the others. I would instead give BO a severity boost on hit, so as to make it better against single target than BFAW, giving BO back its place. BFAW can keep the crown, but give BO back its sniper rifle instead of giving BFAW everything including the kitchen sink.

    Cannons? The severe power dropoff, excessive energy cost, even the depressed overall power GOTZ TA GAO! A more moderate dropoff, as well as energy cost, comparable to beams is necessary. And it needs more punch. I still don't use rapid fire on most of my ships because even with them, they don't do the job.

    And torpedoes, particularly the basic six types, still need to pack more punch if they are going to be anything other than something BFAWers joke about at torpboaters expense.

    Energy weapons abilities stuck at Lt/Ltc/Com is a bad idea and would ruin more builds than the problems would solve to fix them. Putting cannon abilities in Ens/Lt/LtC would be much much more tolerable.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    Counter idea: just make CRF/CSV take up the same boff level as FAW and normalize power drain between cannons and beams. No nerfing FAW is needed just level the playing field between cannon skills and beam skills. I'd be content with one being better than the other as long as they are within 10% damage of each other

    ^^ 100 Agreed.

    Back in the days of Escorts Online, cannons were the bomb, and slotting CRF3 required a Cmdr. station even. Nowadays, cannons are if not crappy, then considerably weaker then the spam which is BFAW. So, the simple solution, for 'parity', is to drop CRF3/CSV3 to Lt. Cmdr. level too (and the rest of the cannon abilities 1 rung down too). And even then cannons probably need an extra buff; but let's start with this. :)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    I think more build options are good, and if that requires nerfing powers, I am fine with that, too. But one has to be careful t hat we actualy increase viable options, not just nerf something so far that it's no longer seen viable and the next-best thnig becomes the best.

    I think changing the level of powers is out as an option. On a very fundamental level. It would like cause problems with existing bridge officers and loadouts and what not. And it will hurt mostly Cruisers.

    Altering the benefits BFAW builds give could be an option. Lowering the damage, lowering the amount of extra shots, or something like that. Basically, a nerf option.
    Or maybe something needs to be done to help cannon or cannon abilities. Bascially a buff option.

    Maybe it requires looking into overcapping and the way weapon energy drain works.​​
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • kjwashingtonkjwashington Member Posts: 2,529 Arc User
    Here's my solution:
    Remove the "beam" and "cannon" from these abilities, and make them work with all weapons. I don't run any beam boat builds because BFaW looks so ugly and un-Trek-like. If I could use beams with SV or RF, I would, and I think a lot of others would too.
    FaW%20meme_zpsbkzfjonz.jpg
    Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    4. Double/triple the energy usage for beam arrays to counter the energy gain from plasmodic leech. Again, this would be a massive nerf to beam arrays with the overjoyed response of the community to look forward to.
    ​​

    With respect, this would be.. in my opinion.. a tremendous mistake.

    The benefits from the Leech console are very expensive for Feds and doing this would be a huge kick in the jewels. In my opinion, a better solution would be altering the drain from cannons to allow them to benefit as beams currently do.

    I'm a 'fed player' that uses the plasmonic leech, and in all my years of playing this game, I have never figured out how people get so much EC. The Leech for me was an enormous investment, I had to save for it for months. Honestly, this change would without question force me to quit, and I fear it would for many others as well. Even KDF Players that didn't have to save up EC for it, they still paid cash which is actually even worse. Making a change that's focused on reducing the effectiveness of the Leech console would start a firestorm of negativity.

    The leech console isn't a problem, the problem is that Cannons don't benefit from it the way beams do. That definitely should change.

    indeed, + a lot of players don't have the plasmonic leech, the increase of the energy usage would be a disaster for these players, myself included (for the majority of my toons.)
  • kelshandokelshando Member Posts: 887 Arc User
    how about just combine BFAW and CVS and BO and CRF.. have them work in conjunction with each other. Just rename them Fire at Will and have both cannons and beams you have aoe attack, and Weapon overload, beams single massive shot and cannons increase fire rate.. that way you don't have worry about so many different ranks and it would make it so having mixed weapons easier to manage.

    As far as Cannons vs Beams... they need to remove the damage drop off. I feel that beams do not pay for there huge arcs as much as cannons do for there damage. With things like pedal to the metal and trait off the pilot ship for armor pen and now the iconinon engines rewarding full engine power all its done it push more and more to use beams as only beams can keep fire on target all the time while maintaining full speed.

    Removing the damage drop off at range will at least allow cannons to do hit and run and keep damage up.. though not as much as beam boat but much better then what we currently have.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    The 2 things cannons could use to bring their DPS more in line with DBBs is a slight increase in DPS for cannon type weapons and less drop off in damage at range. The main issue is the overcap of beam weapons with BFAW, something I believe Borticus has said he would prefer not to mess with since it's more likely to break more than it would help. Thus, a slight boost to cannon damage/ DPS and less drop off in damage/ DPS at range should make the disparity of beams to cannons less and bring them closer to useable parity.
    Torpedoes are a more complex issue. Many torpedoes get less percentage damage boost going from MK XII to XIII and less again from XII to XIV when compared to cannon or beam weapon types.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,498 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    4. Double/triple the energy usage for beam arrays to counter the energy gain from plasmodic leech. Again, this would be a massive nerf to beam arrays with the overjoyed response of the community to look forward to.

    With respect, this would be.. in my opinion.. a tremendous mistake.

    The leech console isn't a problem, the problem is that Cannons don't benefit from it the way beams do. That definitely should change.

    I already mentioned the increase in energy usage would not be welcomed by the community. Though i may have used a hyperbole to demonstrate how much of a problem there currently is with the A2B, plasmonic leech and over cap energy builds an increase in the energy drain from beam arrays would actually have the least impact and be the easiest to implement.

    Beam arrays simply have to many advantages over other weapon types at this time.

    There are weapon types which can only be found on gimmick builds and those weapon types are easily summarized: Not beam array.​​
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    Been killed enough times in PvP with cannons to know they're fine as is. No boost needed, just better piloting. Also, all that FAW DPS is just hitting shields.
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    All the more reason to fix torpedoes to get them to work properly as well as improve the stats to be even better from Mk XII upward. If anything, they should get more of a boost when compared to energy weapons given their setbacks.

    Cannons need more than a slight boost. They only take 1/8 of the pie (no I don't include the pea shooting turrets) where beams get around 3/4 of being omni directional arcs. Damage per second is a fine stat but one needs to start figuring out damage per arc. Considering that, the cannons suffer greatly.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,896 Arc User
    After pulling out my Fleet Defiant and using cannons after using beams for such a long time i found no dps issues whilst using cannons. Anything within my front arc melted as fast as beams, using either CRF or CSV.
    Now once outside my cannons arc then using cannons became an issue because of the limited coverage they give compared to beams.

    Cannons will never be on par with beams regardless of the issues people have raised

    Know issues raised
    1. Overcapping does appear to work on cannons.
    2. Power drain and recovery rate
    3. Dmg over distance loss.
    4. Firing Arc

    Here's why beams unless nerfed into complete uselessness will always be better than cannons
    1. Can be equipped fore and aft
    2. Have a 250' firing arc per single beam array, 90' with dual beam and 360' with Omni-Directional
    3. Broadsiding, because of the firing arc and ability to equip fore and aft, broadsiding a target allows if using a beam boat cruiser 8 weapons to be bared all of the same strength. Compared to a dual heavy cannon and turret user only allowing a broadside of 2/3 turrets as cannons can only fire forward
    4. Beam boats have firepower and dps more evenly spread fore,aft, starboard and port, a cannon user only has full dps fore and within a 45' arc

    So its not that BFAW is so overpowered vs Cannons its because Cannons just lack the versatility of Beams with the firing arcs they give. If you could park a escort nose front and fire happily away at a target without worrying about shields dropping, blow for blow they are both equal.

    Its a different play style to use cannons vs beams. Piloting, timing of activating skills/powers requires more thought and skill over a beam user because of the limited firing arc and often time the target is within that arc.

    Another example i'll give regarding firing arcs is i recent changed my kremin dreadnought from single beam arrays to dual beam arrays fore and omni aft. Now dual beam arrays are more powerful than single arrays. However because they only have a 90' firing arc and the ship is a slow moving brick my more powerful dual beams once outside the 90' arc are useless until i manage to get the target back into them. Does this make them useless and less powerful than single arrays. No it just means i need to fly the ship better and use my buffs with better timing.

    One thing I've thought of and someone has mentioned it before...is beams costing less power than cannons and suffering no damage drop off...or a small one.

    Personally one would think it would be the opposite...for the fact that cannons are bursts of fire while beams are a long concentrated burst...you'd think the beam having to stretch to the target would consume more energy or at least have a greater drop off. But with their Torpedo logic I can't say I'm surprised beams are like this.
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,896 Arc User
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    The 2 things cannons could use to bring their DPS more in line with DBBs is a slight increase in DPS for cannon type weapons and less drop off in damage at range. The main issue is the overcap of beam weapons with BFAW, something I believe Borticus has said he would prefer not to mess with since it's more likely to break more than it would help. Thus, a slight boost to cannon damage/ DPS and less drop off in damage/ DPS at range should make the disparity of beams to cannons less and bring them closer to useable parity.
    Torpedoes are a more complex issue. Many torpedoes get less percentage damage boost going from MK XII to XIII and less again from XII to XIV when compared to cannon or beam weapon types.

    Lovely...FaW is op but makes no attempt to try and buff cannons or CSV or CRF.
    Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
  • uryenserellonturyenserellont Member Posts: 858 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Removing cannon drop off is the single most important thing they can do but it's only step 1. I don't know exactly how the meta went from cannons to A2B to FAW but to me it seems that cannons will not replace FAW on escorts without some sort of nerf to FAW. I don't like nerfs but we have a skill that's great at everything, which was never intended I assure you: it's good AOE, it's good single target, it has no accuracy, energy penalty or damage penalty, it's low BO skill level (for cruisers), and it's spammable with fast cooldown.

    It's "one skill to rule them all" and that needs to change. You can't alter it's BO levels because of cruisers but you can adjust accuracy, energy, cooldown or damage.

    Between removing cannon drop off and removing FAW as the spammy best choice for every situation in every ship we might see some balance between weapon types and skill choices, not including torpedoes which are a whole other can of worms.

    BO is supposed to be the beam single target skill. FAW is supposed to be the lower damage AOE skill for fighters and targetable torps and whatnot that also draws aggro (cruisers are the "tanks").

    Personally I wouldn't mind seeing beam drop off increased. I've always thought beams should have more drop off than cannons. Without drop off they're like lightsabers, ending abruptly at a certain range because what the hell why not. Without drop off they can theoretically reach across an entire system and do damage, hell they can extend infinitely if they had no drop off at all.

    I'm also not opposed to FAW having a damage or energy penalty, depending on how beams are said to work: Either as a sort of DPS weapon, delivering their damage from the moment they hit to the moment they end so the longer they stay on target the more damage they do, or doing a set amount of damage no matter their duration (an instant beam like a lightning bolt delivers it all at once, a 1 second beam delivers it over the course of that second). If they're DPS then with FAW each beam stays on it's target for a shorter time so less damage is done each hit. If they do a set amount of damage no matter their duration then their energy usage increases with more beam spam. You can't increase beam spam and keep their damage the same without increasing energy usage. If they do the same damage no matter their duration one of those three has to decrease if the other two increase. Beam: Overload follows this rule but FAW doesn't.
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
    deathray38 wrote: »
    Goals:
    - Changes as simple as possible,
    - Making cannon/ torpedo builds viability closer to Beam builds

    FAW 1 => Lieutenant level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl higher station)
    FAW 2 => Ltc Commander level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl higher station)
    FAW 3 => Commander level, no other changes (it require 1 lvl higher station)


    What do You think?
    Feedback please! :)

    Putting FAW 3 into commander is a bad idea, cruisers do not have cmd tac, the highest is lt cmd and anyhows ts3 seems to be more popular with cruisers atm
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    Sign In or Register to comment.