Retconning Data - alive in the future in All Good Things but sacrificed in Nemesis

uryenserellont

Was it ever retconned how he became a professor at Cambridge after he sacrificed himself in Nemesis? Of course the most obvious assumption would be that B-4 became Data, and it's even possible that that's exactly what happens in the book series I'm currently reading.

But is it canon if it occurs in a novel? And if it's not canon, does it matter? We have to assume that B-4 becomes Data (or rather, Data assumes consciousness in B-4's body) because otherwise the events of All Good Things are erased from the timeline.

The very end of Nemesis can be seen to suggest that B-4 will become Data, or it can be seen that B-4 is beginning his journey toward humanity the same way his brother did. I don't quite know which way it's supposed to be viewed, but I want to believe at least some inspiration was taken from Star Trek III and that Data was to take over B-4's body.

jonsills

Novels comprise what's known as "soft canon" - it can be accepted or discarded, as one chooses. The ending of Nemesucks does imply that B-4 contains Data's personality imprint, so it's entirely possible that the late Starfleet officer will be resurrected in this new body (so now he can be asked questions like, "So, the ship's transporters were offline - why not use a shuttle transporter?").​​

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angrytarg

As already pointed out, AGT was one possible timeline. Events happening in AGT are not bound to happen outside of this anti-time future which was possibly ended anyway. STO borrows heavily from this possible future which is why I treat the game set in this anti-time setting, though.

Likewise, the future Archer saw in ENT with Klingons joining the UFP is also not bound to happen. Similiar story, possible future which was changed/ended by events following the knowledge.​​

antonine3258

Just to jump on (:) ) AGT seems to be three separate timelines Q set up that interact via the anomaly - AGT's future was a reasonable projection, but events negated it (It seems clear that the Enterprise still visited Farpoint station for instance, despite what happened in the past Q rigged).

I believe the old path to 2409 (the wiki seems to have a copy http://sto.gamepedia.com/Accolade/Lore ) which is what Star Trek Online uses for its backstory includes what happened to bring Data back, which was the B-4 thing. The Path's not canon-canon necessarily, but is for STO if that helps.

hawku001x

"The Needs of the Many" covers his return for the Online timelime, and the "Cold Equations" trilogy covers for the Destiny timeline. I just take them as two separate timelines. The AGT future never happened, but I think is more meant to be an approximation of what direction to bring the characters in. In STO "Unexpected Honor", though, he ends up at Oxford University.

grylak

There's a rather large elephant in the room that outright states AGT was an alternate timeline and those events won't happen.

The Enterprise D is active 25 years after she was destroyed.

Also, the final scene at the poker table says they're changing the future right there, because Picard told them about it, since it's a future that won't come to pass.

mhall85

Not sure about the novels, but B-4 becoming Data was mentioned in the comic tie-in Countdown, which sets the stage for both the 2009 Star Trek film, and is also used in the background for STO. It's still not hard canon, but it's probably as close as you can get in the printed EU.

As for "All Good Things...", remember, the reset button was hit at the end of the episode. It was a view of what could happen, not what will happen. Clearly, that future came into question once Troi drove the 1701-D into Veridian III.

mustrumridcully0

mhall85 wrote: »

Not sure about the novels, but B-4 becoming Data was mentioned in the comic tie-in Countdown, which sets the stage for both the 2009 Star Trek film, and is also used in the background for STO. It's still not hard canon, but it's probably as close as you can get in the printed EU.

As for "All Good Things...", remember, the reset button was hit at the end of the episode. It was a view of what could happen, not what will happen. Clearly, that future came into question once Troi drove the 1701-D into Veridian III.

No, it came into question when the Duras sisters' attack on the Enterprise caused a warp core breach.
The fate of the saucer is comparatively irrelevant.​​

deaftravis05

but saying Troi drove the ship into a planet is more fun than saying "two sisters with daddy issues shot up the Enterprise D"


Data is alive in STO. He just retired I believe, from commanding the Enterprise E.

uryenserellont

deaftravis05 wrote: »

but saying Troi drove the ship into a planet is more fun than saying "two sisters with daddy issues shot up the Enterprise D"


Data is alive in STO. He just retired I believe, from commanding the Enterprise E.

and it's explained somewhere that he's in B-4's body? I never paid much attention to those data chips but that's how I envisioned his return.

I also never considered that All Good Things won't happen. Data a professor, Riker in command of a retrofitted Enterprise D, Picard retired at his family vineyard, it just all makes sense. I guess it doesn't after watching the movies that came after that episode but at the time it made perfect sense that that was the ship and crews' future.

Q even mentions something to Picard that who he was, is and will be are always with him.

I guess we have to consider All Good Things an alternate timeline because of the movies. I'm more comfortable retconning events because explaining things via alternate timelines is just lazy, but I guess it's necessary.

hawku001x

They actually explain, right at the end of the episode, that because Picard told them about those events, it's likely they won't unfold in the same way.

spoiler/

Data in B-4 in STO is explained in Needs of the Many.

grylak

To be honest, there's probably quite a lot of elements to the AGT future that will come to pass. Gal-X's, Picard being an ambassador before retiring to his family vineyards, Riker becoming an admiral, Crusher taking command of the Pasteur. It just won't be the exact future we saw on screen.

warmaker001b

"Nemesis."

That's all that negatively needs to be said.

guljarol

I see it as an alternate future, as in the temporal theory that all possible choices are made, and create branching parallel universes. Small choices (do I drink coffee or tea this morning?) disappear, as they don't bring any major consequences, while big ones (do I destroy the Klingon ship with the chancellor on board and start a war with the Klingons?) go on as a parallel universe.​​

artan42

guljarol wrote: »

I see it as an alternate future, as in the temporal theory that all possible choices are made, and create branching parallel universes. Small choices (do I drink coffee or tea this morning?) disappear, as they don't bring any major consequences, while big ones (do I destroy the Klingon ship with the chancellor on board and start a war with the Klingons?) go on as a parallel universe.

Tea. Never drink coffee when tea is available.​​

eldarion79

Some of AGT's future timeline has come to pass, (according to STO's timeline) Picard became an Ambassador and did retire to France, Data became a professor, Crusher commanded the Pasteur, and Worf was an old Klingon General.

captainchaos66

Temporal Talk gives me a headache! the Future Timeline in AGT was in a way an invention of Picard himself with the help of Q. At least that's the way I interrupted it. Q is the most powerful being ever encountered in the Star Trek Universe. The Q can create there own realities with just a though ( See: Voyager: The Q and Grey) So what's to keep Q from creating a future for picard to help him connect the dots about the anomaly. Its even plainly stated in the episode that Q wont simply HAND Picard the answers to what the anomaly is. At the end of the episode Q says " That part about the helping hand? That was my idea." From the very first episode of TNG Q had an interest in humanity, and specifically picard and his crew. From a narrative point of view this is of course the case. From an in universe point of view it seemed Q actually admired Picard for being so moral and sticking to his values no matter what.

I remember reading about a year before Generations came out that AGT's was supposed to be a precursor to TNG movie. In the movie Q was going to offer Picard entrance into the continuum. At the time I thought that would be awesome, however hindsight being 20/20, its likely a good thing they decided to go with a different route. Would have been great to see Q send Picard and Crew on a big screen adventure. Q was ALWAYS my favorite TNG non-regular character.

Heres hoping someone at Cryptic can convince Jon D'Lancie to do a voiceover part in STO. Having the original TNG Q ingame would be fantastic!

leviathan99

Currently, the novels, comic books, and STO all agree on B4's body being taken over by Data although the exact circumstances are fuzzy, all involve Bruce Maddox. My guess is that Data's return is more or less a "canon edict" decided on by CBS (similar to the existence of the Vesta and design of the Luna) even if it hasn't appeared in a canon work. (Similar to Uhura or Chekov's first names, which were issued by edict before appearing in canon.)

And the reason for this is simple. Nemesis from what I have heard wasn't intended to be the final TNG film and Brent Spiner was interested in one more. Nemesis was more or less supposed to be "part one of two". They killed Data with the intent of bringing him back and transitioning him to CGI to spare Spiner the makeup. I recall hearing that they did a lot of 3D scans of Spiner in Nemesis. The body swap was to lock him in at the age he was, since Data aging at all was unintentional. They hoped you didn't notice Spiner had aged (and had aged considerably more than the makeup revealed) and then by switching bodies, they could "lock him in" with that appearance.

Meanwhile, by spinning off the cast, they could address the complaint that nobody got to do anything in the movies. I mean, poor Crusher. She got dumped in water, called an EMH up, and was reduced to being there... just to be there. When TNG was on, there were Beverly Crusher fans. I'm not sure the movies did anything to create any new ones. It really became The Picard and Data Show -- with Riker and Troi and Data's sidekick Geordi. I think it hurt that a dynamic formed where we didn't see more of the minor cast or where no new characters could take root.

I do wish we'd gotten a hybrid DS9/Voyager movie that was continually rumored. I think what I always heard rumored was something like Riker, Troi, Kim, O'Brien, Seven of Nine, Tuvok, and the Doctor.

jonsills

Pavel Chekov gave his full name in "Day of the Dove", while stating his (illusionary) grievance against the Klingons. Nyota Uhura's name was given in novels as far back as the '70s; it was apparently Gene's idea. ("Nyota" is Swahili for "beautiful"; "Uhura" is an adaptation of "uhuru", meaning "freedom".)

And the presence of Data's programming in B-4 is implied at the end of Nemesis, when the android started whistling "Pop Goes the Weasel" - the same tune Data was whistling when Riker first met him on the holodeck in the TNG premiere episode.

leviathan99

jonsills wrote: »

Pavel Chekov gave his full name in "Day of the Dove", while stating his (illusionary) grievance against the Klingons. Nyota Uhura's name was given in novels as far back as the '70s; it was apparently Gene's idea. ("Nyota" is Swahili for "beautiful"; "Uhura" is an adaptation of "uhuru", meaning "freedom".)

And the presence of Data's programming in B-4 is implied at the end of Nemesis, when the android started whistling "Pop Goes the Weasel" - the same tune Data was whistling when Riker first met him on the holodeck in the TNG premiere episode.

Gene's idea without being stated in a production is a perfect example of "canon by decree", as opposed to "canon by execution".

Data's return seems to be similarly "by decree". No canon production has shown it. The licensees despite having different "non-canon"/"soft-canon" continuities have all converged on this point. And I believe they basically never meant to kill him permanently to begin with, so his death was an accident of the film series' implosion.

kyrrok

The Enterprise was a dreadnought with a big phaser up front during "All good things" but was destroyed in ST:Generations. I'm more than happy to write that off as time being rewritten and the future not happening in one reality as it did in the other one.

uryenserellont

Yeah very true. It's pretty much impossible to reconcile AGT with the movies.

No problem. So far the book I'm reading is doing a good job of filling in the blanks.