Regarding Butterfly...

rezking

Shouldn't Martok still be Chancellor?

nightken

nope, nothing was actually changed except the one species that we never saw before got mostly wiped out and the borg may have gotten a minor upgrade,

nickcastleton

technically when romulas didn't blow up he might have not been challenged by jimpok but that may have reverted back once they undid it.

goodscotch

Brings up good point though...did we ever lose the Clone Emperor or the Sword of Kahless?

rezking

goodscotch wrote: »

Brings up good point though...did we ever lose the Clone Emperor or the Sword of Kahless?

Yes.
There wasn't just the one incursion, there was 2.
The argument can be made that there would be differences in the current timeline.

willamsheridan

there ARE differences in the current timeline. One minor but very obvious is the Resercher Noye or whatever his name was. Look at his beard before and after the incursions were made.

i hope that they find a way to bring Kahless back to life. They shouldn't have let him die in the first place.

And i hope that they will find a way to bring Martik back too. Maybe not with a temporal incursion in a mission but when they revamp the storyline in the future. A chancellor with ties to the house of Duras? A House of traitors?

xepthri

Bring back Alexander.

ladytiamat666

It is a great opportunity to bring back Jadzia Dax, isn't it ?

bltrrn

ladytiamat666 wrote: »

It is a great opportunity to bring back Jadzia Dax, isn't it ?

Season 11 will be DS9 themed, so I wouldn't be surprised.

warmaker001b

rezking wrote: »

Shouldn't Martok still be Chancellor?

"I hate temporal theory."

It would be so awesome if we somehow got Chancellor Martok back.

staq16

If I recall correctly, Martok's demise was brought about by the Federation refusing to support the Empire's efforts against the Undine-manipulated Gorn. Since the Gorn are still part of the Empire, one assumes that line still played out.

ulukayx

I think we can safely assume that nothing shook up the status quo of the alpha and beta quadrant too much. J'mpok will still be chancelor, the klingon/gorn war will still have happened, Romulus is destroyed and the Republic claimed new romulus and forged treaties with the empire and Starfleet.

There are likely to be changes, but they seem to mostly affect the Delta quadrant for some reason (I guess that asteroid we removed did something significant there) and maybe the Rework of the Cardassian Arc will be explained by the changes made.

starswordc

rezking wrote: »

Shouldn't Martok still be Chancellor?

Yes, please. In fact they should've aimed the timeship at J'mpok to begin with. We might've had a fighting chance against the Iconians if he hadn't screwed the whole quadrant by weakening its two biggest superpowers for his political gain.

kyrrok

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

starswordc

kyrrok wrote: »

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

Given the Klingons' track record for going off half-cocked on the mere rumor of shapeshifters, it's easy to see why the Federation didn't believe them this time either. If the Klingons had any brains at all they'd have paid attention when the Federation told them to knock it off, and presented actual evidence to back up their assertions.

But no, J'mpok wanted an excuse to pick a fight with the Gorn and cement his political position after the way he became chancellor purely on his own say-so.

And as for Sokketh, that's a demonstration of the entire war in miniature. Why don't you go play the mission again, and really think about it this time? Because this is what happens:

• A Klingon cruiser commander gets information that a Federation diplomat is really an Undine. Does he submit his findings to the Federation through diplomatic channels? No! He leads a deep-strike into Federation territory to kill the ambassador himself, and instead of at least coming out firing, he sacrifices the element of surprise to high-handedly demand that the Federation PC hand over the ambassador.
• The Fed PC reacts surprisingly calmly to this. Remember, the Feds and Klinks have now been at war for four years and the Klingon is asking a Starfleet officer on an escort mission to hand over his charge to an enemy combatant. It's as if you'd asked a Secret Service agent to hand over POTUS to ISIS, purely on the word of an ISIS militant that POTUS was secretly a traitor. But instead of acting as s/he has every right to, i.e. by blasting the damn fool out of space on sight, s/he actually bothers to entertain the notion that the Klingon might be onto something and asks to see his evidence. Really unrealistically reasonable under the circumstance.
• And how does the Klingon respond to this olive branch? He takes umbrage that this Starfleet officer who has already far exceeded his/her orders would dare question his word--oh, the horror! How could s/he do such a thing?--and attacks, and because he's up against a player character he dies completely pointlessly and Starfleet makes the kill against the Undine.

The Klingon Defense Force regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.



And I would also point out that a later mission in the Klingon War storyline has the Fed PC find an Undine in the Klingons' ranks. They've got no more idea what they were doing than the Federation Council did. And given how bloody terrible your average Undine is at accurately mimicking a humanoid, I find it easier to believe that Starfleet actually remembered the lessons of the Dominion War and chose to use the infiltrators they knew about as intelligence assets by feeding them disinformation. Starfleet Intelligence was explicitly well aware of the problem, after all, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I'd like to credit them with some brains.

I say again. Delete J'mpok and we're all much better off, Klingons included.

kyrrok

all much better off eh? Klingons included? That surprises me. You strike me as the sort that would rather the Klingons didn't even exist.

starswordc

Also, I didn't say "delete the House of Duras", I just said "Delete J'mpok". Except for Ja'rod the House of Duras was defunct at that point. Ja'rod would've found his evidence regardless of whether Martok was in charge (he left on his fact-finding mission before J'mpok murdered Martok), it's what the Empire would've done with it that would make the difference.

starswordc

kyrrok wrote: »

all much better off eh? Klingons included? That surprises me. You strike me as the sort that would rather the Klingons didn't even exist.

Yes, much better off. Because then they wouldn't have wasted troops and ships by making a land-grab against the Federation, meaning they'd have more forces available to fight the Heralds now. Remember: The casus belli against the Federation had jack-TRIBBLE to do with the Undine. It's explicitly stated J'mpok just wanted to conquer planets the Federation had controlled for decades. And the Federation was not going to let another Federation-Cardassian Cold War happen by abandoning their citizens or forcing them to move, because unlike the Klingons they actually remembered the lessons of the lead-up to the Dominion War.

I don't have a problem with Klingons. I have a problem with stubborn, willful stupidity.

kyrrok

post deleted and replaced - looks like my previous assessment was right on the money after all.

warmaker001b

starswordc wrote: »

kyrrok wrote: »

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

Given the Klingons' track record for going off half-cocked on the mere rumor of shapeshifters, it's easy to see why the Federation didn't believe them this time either. If the Klingons had any brains at all they'd have paid attention when the Federation told them to knock it off, and presented actual evidence to back up their assertions.

But no, J'mpok wanted an excuse to pick a fight with the Gorn and cement his political position after the way he became chancellor purely on his own say-so.

And as for Sokketh, that's a demonstration of the entire war in miniature. Why don't you go play the mission again, and really think about it this time? Because this is what happens:

• A Klingon cruiser commander gets information that a Federation diplomat is really an Undine. Does he submit his findings to the Federation through diplomatic channels? No! He leads a deep-strike into Federation territory to kill the ambassador himself, and instead of at least coming out firing, he sacrifices the element of surprise to high-handedly demand that the Federation PC hand over the ambassador.
• The Fed PC reacts surprisingly calmly to this. Remember, the Feds and Klinks have now been at war for four years and the Klingon is asking a Starfleet officer on an escort mission to hand over his charge to an enemy combatant. It's as if you'd asked a Secret Service agent to hand over POTUS to ISIS, purely on the word of an ISIS militant that POTUS was secretly a traitor. But instead of acting as s/he has every right to, i.e. by blasting the damn fool out of space on sight, s/he actually bothers to entertain the notion that the Klingon might be onto something and asks to see his evidence. Really unrealistically reasonable under the circumstance.
• And how does the Klingon respond to this olive branch? He takes umbrage that this Starfleet officer who has already far exceeded his/her orders would dare question his word--oh, the horror! How could s/he do such a thing?--and attacks, and because he's up against a player character he dies completely pointlessly and Starfleet makes the kill against the Undine.

The Klingon Defense Force regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.



And I would also point out that a later mission in the Klingon War storyline has the Fed PC find an Undine in the Klingons' ranks. They've got no more idea what they were doing than the Federation Council did. And given how bloody terrible your average Undine is at accurately mimicking a humanoid, I find it easier to believe that Starfleet actually remembered the lessons of the Dominion War and chose to use the infiltrators they knew about as intelligence assets by feeding them disinformation. Starfleet Intelligence was explicitly well aware of the problem, after all, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I'd like to credit them with some brains.

I say again. Delete J'mpok and we're all much better off, Klingons included.

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

bltrrn

warmaker001b wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

kyrrok wrote: »

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

Given the Klingons' track record for going off half-cocked on the mere rumor of shapeshifters, it's easy to see why the Federation didn't believe them this time either. If the Klingons had any brains at all they'd have paid attention when the Federation told them to knock it off, and presented actual evidence to back up their assertions.

But no, J'mpok wanted an excuse to pick a fight with the Gorn and cement his political position after the way he became chancellor purely on his own say-so.

And as for Sokketh, that's a demonstration of the entire war in miniature. Why don't you go play the mission again, and really think about it this time? Because this is what happens:

• A Klingon cruiser commander gets information that a Federation diplomat is really an Undine. Does he submit his findings to the Federation through diplomatic channels? No! He leads a deep-strike into Federation territory to kill the ambassador himself, and instead of at least coming out firing, he sacrifices the element of surprise to high-handedly demand that the Federation PC hand over the ambassador.
• The Fed PC reacts surprisingly calmly to this. Remember, the Feds and Klinks have now been at war for four years and the Klingon is asking a Starfleet officer on an escort mission to hand over his charge to an enemy combatant. It's as if you'd asked a Secret Service agent to hand over POTUS to ISIS, purely on the word of an ISIS militant that POTUS was secretly a traitor. But instead of acting as s/he has every right to, i.e. by blasting the damn fool out of space on sight, s/he actually bothers to entertain the notion that the Klingon might be onto something and asks to see his evidence. Really unrealistically reasonable under the circumstance.
• And how does the Klingon respond to this olive branch? He takes umbrage that this Starfleet officer who has already far exceeded his/her orders would dare question his word--oh, the horror! How could s/he do such a thing?--and attacks, and because he's up against a player character he dies completely pointlessly and Starfleet makes the kill against the Undine.

The Klingon Defense Force regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.



And I would also point out that a later mission in the Klingon War storyline has the Fed PC find an Undine in the Klingons' ranks. They've got no more idea what they were doing than the Federation Council did. And given how bloody terrible your average Undine is at accurately mimicking a humanoid, I find it easier to believe that Starfleet actually remembered the lessons of the Dominion War and chose to use the infiltrators they knew about as intelligence assets by feeding them disinformation. Starfleet Intelligence was explicitly well aware of the problem, after all, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I'd like to credit them with some brains.

I say again. Delete J'mpok and we're all much better off, Klingons included.

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

All will be better, when the UFP admits that they have a problem. Just as the Klingon and Romulan polities have, so must the Homo Sapiens Only Club.

rezking

staq16 wrote: »

If I recall correctly, Martok's demise was brought about by the Federation refusing to support the Empire's efforts against the Undine-manipulated Gorn. Since the Gorn are still part of the Empire, one assumes that line still played out.

I'm not entirely convinced everything remained "as is".
The 2nd incursion should have had some affect on that event.
It was Undine-manipulated but it was Iconian orchestrated.

Regardless, the recent "Tales of the War (#21?)" seems to imply "Jimpok" is still the Chancellor...pity.
Having Martok back in the mix would have opened up fresh plot content going forward.

artan42

I'm sure that, whether the Federation listened or not, Section 31 have been quietly working on the Undine problem since before they arrived in the Alpha quadrant. Probably more effectively than the entire Klingon Empire, who's approach to the knowledge of the Undine seemed to boil down to, 'lets waste our ships with a war on two fronts'.​​

rezking

artan42 wrote: »

I'm sure that, whether the Federation listened or not, Section 31 have been quietly working on the Undine problem since before they arrived in the Alpha quadrant. Probably more effectively than the entire Klingon Empire, who's approach to the knowledge of the Undine seemed to boil down to, 'lets waste our ships with a war on two fronts'.​​

I don't believe that at all.
I believe the opposite is true.
The KDF have been very progressive in dealing with the Undine threat and Section 31 would not be able to operate at all without sympathetic ears in the Empire.
Meanwhile, the Federation was too dazzled by shiny stuffs and all emo because of first world problems to notice their entire command structure was replaced by Undine infiltrators.

starswordc

bltrrn wrote: »

warmaker001b wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

kyrrok wrote: »

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

Given the Klingons' track record for going off half-cocked on the mere rumor of shapeshifters, it's easy to see why the Federation didn't believe them this time either. If the Klingons had any brains at all they'd have paid attention when the Federation told them to knock it off, and presented actual evidence to back up their assertions.

But no, J'mpok wanted an excuse to pick a fight with the Gorn and cement his political position after the way he became chancellor purely on his own say-so.

And as for Sokketh, that's a demonstration of the entire war in miniature. Why don't you go play the mission again, and really think about it this time? Because this is what happens:

• A Klingon cruiser commander gets information that a Federation diplomat is really an Undine. Does he submit his findings to the Federation through diplomatic channels? No! He leads a deep-strike into Federation territory to kill the ambassador himself, and instead of at least coming out firing, he sacrifices the element of surprise to high-handedly demand that the Federation PC hand over the ambassador.
• The Fed PC reacts surprisingly calmly to this. Remember, the Feds and Klinks have now been at war for four years and the Klingon is asking a Starfleet officer on an escort mission to hand over his charge to an enemy combatant. It's as if you'd asked a Secret Service agent to hand over POTUS to ISIS, purely on the word of an ISIS militant that POTUS was secretly a traitor. But instead of acting as s/he has every right to, i.e. by blasting the damn fool out of space on sight, s/he actually bothers to entertain the notion that the Klingon might be onto something and asks to see his evidence. Really unrealistically reasonable under the circumstance.
• And how does the Klingon respond to this olive branch? He takes umbrage that this Starfleet officer who has already far exceeded his/her orders would dare question his word--oh, the horror! How could s/he do such a thing?--and attacks, and because he's up against a player character he dies completely pointlessly and Starfleet makes the kill against the Undine.

The Klingon Defense Force regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.



And I would also point out that a later mission in the Klingon War storyline has the Fed PC find an Undine in the Klingons' ranks. They've got no more idea what they were doing than the Federation Council did. And given how bloody terrible your average Undine is at accurately mimicking a humanoid, I find it easier to believe that Starfleet actually remembered the lessons of the Dominion War and chose to use the infiltrators they knew about as intelligence assets by feeding them disinformation. Starfleet Intelligence was explicitly well aware of the problem, after all, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I'd like to credit them with some brains.

I say again. Delete J'mpok and we're all much better off, Klingons included.

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

All will be better, when the UFP admits that they have a problem. Just as the Klingon and Romulan polities have, so must the Homo Sapiens Only Club.

The Federation already admitted it was wrong about the Undine. Now let's see the Klingons admit they were wrong to commit ethnic cleansing against Federation civilian populations who had no-damn-thing to do with the Undine issue, as well as torture and murder prisoners-of-war, and sell sentient beings into slavery to organized crime.

Being right about the Undine does not absolve the Klingons of their share of the responsibility for nearly dooming the quadrant to Iconian domination. They got played by the Undine and Iconians just as much as the Federation did, by reacting in exactly the same way they did to deliberately planted rumors of changeling infiltration. That's why the Federation didn't believe them: past history indicated they were untrustworthy and prone to going off half-cocked. As has been borne out again and again in this game. *cough* Kahless *cough* And the Iconians' grand strategy counted on it.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

themetalstickman

warmaker001b wrote: »

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

That mission was retconned; it has no bearing on this discussion.​​

warmaker001b

artan42 wrote: »

I'm sure that, whether the Federation listened or not, Section 31 have been quietly working on the Undine problem since before they arrived in the Alpha quadrant. Probably more effectively than the entire Klingon Empire, who's approach to the knowledge of the Undine seemed to boil down to, 'lets waste our ships with a war on two fronts'.​​

No, Section 31's "Power of Plot Convenience" didn't work in detecting, stopping the Species 8472 Infiltration of the Federation, Starfleet, Starfleet's leadership, nor did it have anything to do with the end of the conflict with 8472. The plot didn't call for it, so "Power of Plot Convenience" did not apply.

warmaker001b

starswordc wrote: »

bltrrn wrote: »

warmaker001b wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

kyrrok wrote: »

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

Given the Klingons' track record for going off half-cocked on the mere rumor of shapeshifters, it's easy to see why the Federation didn't believe them this time either. If the Klingons had any brains at all they'd have paid attention when the Federation told them to knock it off, and presented actual evidence to back up their assertions.

But no, J'mpok wanted an excuse to pick a fight with the Gorn and cement his political position after the way he became chancellor purely on his own say-so.

And as for Sokketh, that's a demonstration of the entire war in miniature. Why don't you go play the mission again, and really think about it this time? Because this is what happens:

• A Klingon cruiser commander gets information that a Federation diplomat is really an Undine. Does he submit his findings to the Federation through diplomatic channels? No! He leads a deep-strike into Federation territory to kill the ambassador himself, and instead of at least coming out firing, he sacrifices the element of surprise to high-handedly demand that the Federation PC hand over the ambassador.
• The Fed PC reacts surprisingly calmly to this. Remember, the Feds and Klinks have now been at war for four years and the Klingon is asking a Starfleet officer on an escort mission to hand over his charge to an enemy combatant. It's as if you'd asked a Secret Service agent to hand over POTUS to ISIS, purely on the word of an ISIS militant that POTUS was secretly a traitor. But instead of acting as s/he has every right to, i.e. by blasting the damn fool out of space on sight, s/he actually bothers to entertain the notion that the Klingon might be onto something and asks to see his evidence. Really unrealistically reasonable under the circumstance.
• And how does the Klingon respond to this olive branch? He takes umbrage that this Starfleet officer who has already far exceeded his/her orders would dare question his word--oh, the horror! How could s/he do such a thing?--and attacks, and because he's up against a player character he dies completely pointlessly and Starfleet makes the kill against the Undine.

The Klingon Defense Force regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.



And I would also point out that a later mission in the Klingon War storyline has the Fed PC find an Undine in the Klingons' ranks. They've got no more idea what they were doing than the Federation Council did. And given how bloody terrible your average Undine is at accurately mimicking a humanoid, I find it easier to believe that Starfleet actually remembered the lessons of the Dominion War and chose to use the infiltrators they knew about as intelligence assets by feeding them disinformation. Starfleet Intelligence was explicitly well aware of the problem, after all, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I'd like to credit them with some brains.

I say again. Delete J'mpok and we're all much better off, Klingons included.

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

All will be better, when the UFP admits that they have a problem. Just as the Klingon and Romulan polities have, so must the Homo Sapiens Only Club.

The Federation already admitted it was wrong about the Undine. Now let's see the Klingons admit they were wrong to commit ethnic cleansing against Federation civilian populations who had no-damn-thing to do with the Undine issue, as well as torture and murder prisoners-of-war, and sell sentient beings into slavery to organized crime.

Being right about the Undine does not absolve the Klingons of their share of the responsibility for nearly dooming the quadrant to Iconian domination. They got played by the Undine and Iconians just as much as the Federation did, by reacting in exactly the same way they did to deliberately planted rumors of changeling infiltration. That's why the Federation didn't believe them: past history indicated they were untrustworthy and prone to going off half-cocked. As has been borne out again and again in this game. *cough* Kahless *cough* And the Iconians' grand strategy counted on it.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

"Klingons don't take prisoners." - Kirk

Of course, the Federation with its long history with the Klingon Empire would already know that. The Federation saw fit to let the Dominion War winning alliance dissolve. That's how the Empire rolls with the alliance dissolved and an open war erupting between the former allies.

Klingons did what the Klingons have always done. You don't like it. But who cares. That's what the Empire does, especially since it's not quite a "Klingon only" faction anymore.

warmaker001b

themetalstickman wrote: »

warmaker001b wrote: »

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

That mission was retconned; it has no bearing on this discussion.​​

Did it retcon Starfleet, the Federation's incompetent handling of everything related to the Species 8472 threat?

gradii

bltrrn wrote: »

warmaker001b wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

kyrrok wrote: »

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

Given the Klingons' track record for going off half-cocked on the mere rumor of shapeshifters, it's easy to see why the Federation didn't believe them this time either. If the Klingons had any brains at all they'd have paid attention when the Federation told them to knock it off, and presented actual evidence to back up their assertions.

But no, J'mpok wanted an excuse to pick a fight with the Gorn and cement his political position after the way he became chancellor purely on his own say-so.

And as for Sokketh, that's a demonstration of the entire war in miniature. Why don't you go play the mission again, and really think about it this time? Because this is what happens:

• A Klingon cruiser commander gets information that a Federation diplomat is really an Undine. Does he submit his findings to the Federation through diplomatic channels? No! He leads a deep-strike into Federation territory to kill the ambassador himself, and instead of at least coming out firing, he sacrifices the element of surprise to high-handedly demand that the Federation PC hand over the ambassador.
• The Fed PC reacts surprisingly calmly to this. Remember, the Feds and Klinks have now been at war for four years and the Klingon is asking a Starfleet officer on an escort mission to hand over his charge to an enemy combatant. It's as if you'd asked a Secret Service agent to hand over POTUS to ISIS, purely on the word of an ISIS militant that POTUS was secretly a traitor. But instead of acting as s/he has every right to, i.e. by blasting the damn fool out of space on sight, s/he actually bothers to entertain the notion that the Klingon might be onto something and asks to see his evidence. Really unrealistically reasonable under the circumstance.
• And how does the Klingon respond to this olive branch? He takes umbrage that this Starfleet officer who has already far exceeded his/her orders would dare question his word--oh, the horror! How could s/he do such a thing?--and attacks, and because he's up against a player character he dies completely pointlessly and Starfleet makes the kill against the Undine.

The Klingon Defense Force regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.



And I would also point out that a later mission in the Klingon War storyline has the Fed PC find an Undine in the Klingons' ranks. They've got no more idea what they were doing than the Federation Council did. And given how bloody terrible your average Undine is at accurately mimicking a humanoid, I find it easier to believe that Starfleet actually remembered the lessons of the Dominion War and chose to use the infiltrators they knew about as intelligence assets by feeding them disinformation. Starfleet Intelligence was explicitly well aware of the problem, after all, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I'd like to credit them with some brains.

I say again. Delete J'mpok and we're all much better off, Klingons included.

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

All will be better, when the UFP admits that they have a problem. Just as the Klingon and Romulan polities have, so must the Homo Sapiens Only Club.

Homo Sapiens Only club is Terran Empire.

warmaker001b

gradii wrote: »

bltrrn wrote: »

warmaker001b wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

kyrrok wrote: »

Martok as Chancellor? Yes let's put the time ship at J'mpok, maybe even the whole Duras faction while we're at it. One problem though, how do you keep reality from falling apart concerning the Undine on Gornar. Heavy handed as it was, the Klingons did discover the Undine threat there. And what of Sokketh?

Given the Klingons' track record for going off half-cocked on the mere rumor of shapeshifters, it's easy to see why the Federation didn't believe them this time either. If the Klingons had any brains at all they'd have paid attention when the Federation told them to knock it off, and presented actual evidence to back up their assertions.

But no, J'mpok wanted an excuse to pick a fight with the Gorn and cement his political position after the way he became chancellor purely on his own say-so.

And as for Sokketh, that's a demonstration of the entire war in miniature. Why don't you go play the mission again, and really think about it this time? Because this is what happens:

• A Klingon cruiser commander gets information that a Federation diplomat is really an Undine. Does he submit his findings to the Federation through diplomatic channels? No! He leads a deep-strike into Federation territory to kill the ambassador himself, and instead of at least coming out firing, he sacrifices the element of surprise to high-handedly demand that the Federation PC hand over the ambassador.
• The Fed PC reacts surprisingly calmly to this. Remember, the Feds and Klinks have now been at war for four years and the Klingon is asking a Starfleet officer on an escort mission to hand over his charge to an enemy combatant. It's as if you'd asked a Secret Service agent to hand over POTUS to ISIS, purely on the word of an ISIS militant that POTUS was secretly a traitor. But instead of acting as s/he has every right to, i.e. by blasting the damn fool out of space on sight, s/he actually bothers to entertain the notion that the Klingon might be onto something and asks to see his evidence. Really unrealistically reasonable under the circumstance.
• And how does the Klingon respond to this olive branch? He takes umbrage that this Starfleet officer who has already far exceeded his/her orders would dare question his word--oh, the horror! How could s/he do such a thing?--and attacks, and because he's up against a player character he dies completely pointlessly and Starfleet makes the kill against the Undine.

The Klingon Defense Force regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.



And I would also point out that a later mission in the Klingon War storyline has the Fed PC find an Undine in the Klingons' ranks. They've got no more idea what they were doing than the Federation Council did. And given how bloody terrible your average Undine is at accurately mimicking a humanoid, I find it easier to believe that Starfleet actually remembered the lessons of the Dominion War and chose to use the infiltrators they knew about as intelligence assets by feeding them disinformation. Starfleet Intelligence was explicitly well aware of the problem, after all, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I'd like to credit them with some brains.

I say again. Delete J'mpok and we're all much better off, Klingons included.

The difference between the Klingon Empire and Federation handling of the threat of Undine Infiltration is the former was trying something against it, though misguided as it was at times, while the latter did nothing about it. Even after it became apparent a Starfleet ADMIRAL exposed herself willingly, arrogantly in front of the PC that she was indeed Species 8472... The Federation did nothing about it. No alarms were raised. Nothing. Ho-Hum. Just keep killing those Romulan doctors. They just shut their eyes closed and covered the ears, proclaiming there is no such thing as Infiltration anymore.

All will be better, when the UFP admits that they have a problem. Just as the Klingon and Romulan polities have, so must the Homo Sapiens Only Club.

Homo Sapiens Only club is Terran Empire.

No it's not, because Vulcans are there in their Starfleet. Other alien races are also there in the Terran Empire. For subjugation purposes, of course.