If they want to make PvP relevant to the story in some way or even vaguely compelling and not related to teh story I'd be all for it. I love a little real competion. But as it is, no such competition exists and it doesn't add anything to the game to have it. So, basically I'm saying, have it if it's going to be cool and interesting. If not, scrap it and put that energy into making PvE that's better. I'm not saying the iconian war content sucked because PvP was drawing creative time and energy away but, you never know.
You're talking about games of skill like counter strike or some kind of flight sim game, that's not what this is, this is an MMO, it is a different genre of game and rewards a different set of skills.
The point is, PvP should be a skill based competetive game just like counter strike - and in the past, STO was that game. Today it's just about p2w, power creep and finding the latest exploits. Thats why I think it needs to be separated from PvE...to rebalance, to get rid of all that p2w nonsense.
Anyway I'll just continue playing CS:GO like I did for the last months ignoring this awful Star Trek game.
Voted No because what's good for PvP mechanics is good for the entire game.
PvP requires strict balance, and to me STO sorely needs it.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
Mmos are not twitch games like counter strike, the only "skill" they reward is the skill of getting better stuff than the other guy and figuring out the mechanics better than him to min-max and smash him.
this game does not require twitch skills (like aiming) but it did (past tense) require counterplay skills
PVE here does not require counterplay, its DPS uber alles, PVP here is wasteland due to insane imbalances from trying to make PVE heroes feel more special everyday
Mmos are not twitch games like counter strike, the only "skill" they reward is the skill of getting better stuff than the other guy and figuring out the mechanics better than him to min-max and smash him.
If you want to play a game that rewards the skill of twitching the finger then just go do that. Stop ruining MMO genre pvp.
I have a friend who did play Counter Strike:G.O. at competitive levels, tournaments included. I can firmly say that your logic is flawed.
Additionally, STO doesn't require counterplay anymore. C'mon, you need to counter NPCs? It's like the Nandi trait: "immunity to power drains". How often do you get heavily drained (read: complete subsys shutdown) by an NPC? That trait alone killed off an entire science vessel build subclass in PvP.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
I'm sorry that you are so into counter strike. Maybe if you saw first hand there are more interesting types of games you could do better.
I don't know any competetive first person shooters that are doing better than CS:GO atm (well, except for CS 1.6 maybe). Most other games don't require skill at all, CS is by far the most complex and hardest to learn&master shooter that has ever existed. But you seem to know better games, maybe you can suggest others? (Don't you dare to say bullsh*t n00b games like CoD or Battlefield!)
Anyway, while what you've said is shameful, it's good that you at least read an MMO forum so that you can learn about better games.
Looking at STOs current state makes it very clear to me which games are in a better condition. There's a reason why I stopped playing this TRIBBLE. Cryptic removed the need to use your brain from this game - that is a shame.
Btw, if it makes you feel better - I also enjoy playing some good single player games every now and then like:
Baldurs Gate
Master of Orion
Heroes of Might & Magic
Myst
Mmos are not twitch games like counter strike, the only "skill" they reward is the skill of getting better stuff than the other guy and figuring out the mechanics better than him to min-max and smash him.
If you want to play a game that rewards the skill of twitching the finger then just go do that. Stop ruining MMO genre pvp.
I have a friend who did play Counter Strike:G.O. at competitive levels, tournaments included. I can firmly say that your logic is flawed.
Additionally, STO doesn't require counterplay anymore. C'mon, you need to counter NPCs? It's like the Nandi trait: "immunity to power drains". How often do you get heavily drained (read: complete subsys shutdown) by an NPC? That trait alone killed off an entire science vessel build subclass in PvP.
Having a friend who was in that (unfortunate) situation doesn't allow you to say anything, much less say it firmly. You are still wrong.
Please don't corrupt this genre of game by trying to mix it with a different genre, there is meant to be a diversity of games that are different. Which means they aren't the same do you understand?
On what? I know what he did, and arguably you don't know what professional tournaments are.
You are trying to defend the indefensible by comparing a game that has been dumbed down to a few, overpowered and overabused mechanics with a highly successful title that, guess what, happens to have competitive PvP.
And who brought CSGO in the discussion again?
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
The point is, PvP should be a skill based competetive game just like counter strike - and in the past, STO was that game. Today it's just about p2w, power creep and finding the latest exploits. Thats why I think it needs to be separated from PvE...to rebalance, to get rid of all that p2w nonsense.
Anyway I'll just continue playing CS:GO like I did for the last months ignoring this awful Star Trek game.
At first i thought it was a joke to read someone comparing STO with Counter Strike.. i was wrong.. you already did it.. ow.. lol. Even if they are 1000% completely different games/generes. amazing.. xD.
The best thing about separating PvE power and equipment and ship properties from PvP power and equipment and ship properties, is the end of the "death spiral" that results in the developers spending increasing amounts of time re-balancing all the PvE content to match the PvP changes. That's a big chunk of what killed Star Wars Galaxies even before the New Game Experience.
Every PvP change affected PvE fighting, so the developers had to re-balance the creatures and missions, and then a new 'flavor of the month' character template appeared that dominated PvP, so they had to re-balance PvP, and that meant they had to go back and redo PvE content...
PvP NOT being separate from PvE wastes a lot of development time.
At first i thought it was a joke to read someone comparing STO with Counter Strike.. i was wrong.. you already did it.. ow.. lol. Even if they are 1000% completely different games/generes. amazing.. xD.
Yes, the mechanics are completely diffent. The way you play these games can't even be more different. But think about this: PvP in any MMO is build on the same ideas as any other competetive game out there (like LoL, CS, WoT, Hearthstone, FIFA). It's always about the competition, finding new strategies, counter strategies, analysing your enemy and finding an edge to win the match.
The principles are always the same, even for games like chess and sports in general, it's about a skill based competition. All I was saying was, that I wish STO PvP was following the same principles (which it can't btw in it's current state).
What's the problem with wanting a skill based game?
Also, I did not compare STO with CS. I compared attributes of both games since both were mentioned in this topic previously.
At first i thought it was a joke to read someone comparing STO with Counter Strike.. i was wrong.. you already did it.. ow.. lol. Even if they are 1000% completely different games/generes. amazing.. xD.
Yes, the mechanics are completely diffent. The way you play these games can't even be more different. But think about this: PvP in any MMO is build on the same ideas as any other competetive game out there (like LoL, CS, WoT, Hearthstone, FIFA). It's always about the competition, finding new strategies, counter strategies, analysing your enemy and finding an edge to win the match.
The principles are always the same, even for games like chess and sports in general, it's about a skill based competition. All I was saying was, that I wish STO PvP was following the same principles (which it can't btw in it's current state).
The problem is, the way to implement all these aspects vary A LOT from one game or another, specially if they are from different geners. I mean, i played counter strike almost my whole life, and no, you cant compare em. The mechanics are completely different, yes the "human" aspects of pvp remains, but the way you need to deal with your own skills has nothing to do with counter strike, ende the way you end implementing all your strategies are totally different. Its like saying , driving a formula 1 has the same principles as driving a seat-, of course, but in the end it is a completely different experience... and you cant drive a formula 1 like you drive a mid-class turism.
The problem is, the way to implement all these aspects vary A LOT from one game or another, specially if they are from different geners. I mean, i played counter strike almost my whole life, and no, you cant compare em. The mechanics are completely different, yes the "human" aspects of pvp remains, but the way you need to deal with your own skills has nothing to do with counter strike, ende the way you end implementing all your strategies are totally different. Its like saying , driving a formula 1 has the same principles as driving a seat-, of course, but in the end it is a completely different experience... and you cant drive a formula 1 like you drive a mid-class turism.
As I said, I did not compare the games. I just pointed out that both, STO PvP and CS (and a lot of other multiplayer games) are based on the same idea: Creating an environment of Competition. And that is something that STO lost over the years - which is sad imho.
We all know that a lot of skills, ships and items are useless in PvE but can be overpowered in PvP at the same time (universal consoles for example). If cryptic seperated both modes, they could easily balance both in different ways resulting in a lot of new possible strategies and builds in any game mode.
See, there are different kinds of games people like to play. One kind is twitch games, like first person shooters, which reward the ability to,twitch your fingers in just the right way at just the right time.
Another kind of game is a progression MMO, where by playing the game, your character progresses and gets better and better stuff.
Both games can have compelling pve and pvp modes, but those modes need to be appropriate to the type of game. A twitch game with a pvp mode where a person got stronger armor and guns and could kill people who were much better at twitching their fingers would be bad, since it defeats the purpose of the game, which is to reward twitching your fingers well.
In the same way, a progression game that abandoned progression mechanics in favor of twitch mechanics would be bad. It wouldn't incentivise progression, people with less progression but better finger twitching abilities could come out on top. Which is contrary to the point of a progression game.
Having pvp tied to game progression gives people another reason to want to progress. Being able to smash people with less stuff than you is a reward for getting more stuff, and gives others a reason to want more stuff, so they can smash others with it, or stand up to you.
It's not rocket science. So please people, respect the diversity of games and use your self control to play games you like- not try to contaminate games you don't like by TRIBBLE them up and warping them into bad imitations of games you do like.
I’m going to forgive most of what you wrote, and assume you mean simply that out grinding/out paying your fellow player should give you an advantage over him in MMO pvp. I think everyone agrees with that. Two players of the same skill, playing their best, the one with the better stuff wins. No problem with that. That exists in a lot of successful pvp that’s on the market now. This is what STO used to be.
The argument here is that the power gap is so wide now between the haves and have nots, it’s no longer competitive between the two. Better gear should give an edge in a competition; it should not be the competition. The cost to compete now is very high, and that doesn’t even begin to describe the cost to remain competitive (t5u JHAS owners nodding sadly).
In the same way, a progression game that abandoned progression mechanics in favor of twitch mechanics would be bad. It wouldn't incentivise progression, people with less progression but better finger twitching abilities could come out on top. Which is contrary to the point of a progression game.
This should definitely be possible. The "could" is the most important part. If players with less stuff/progression can't compete with you, where is the fun in that? Running around in god-mode, destroying other players without them ever having a chance? Silliness.
There has been a huge exodus from this game. Not calling doom yet, but there was a major shift with DR. Guppies have to have a competitive chance with the whales or the guppies leave the whales to play with themselves. Sometimes it's fun to play with yourself.
BSGO was a great time soaker a few years ago, but one faction was fairly ignored and then became massively outnumbered and then any slight ship advantage they had to combat the numbers game was nerfed due to cry babies and the game just about died and server mergers have been happening ever since.
Saying that, PVP on STo is in a different league as faction alignment in less important as is spawn camping, so having a vibrant PVP scene would be beneficial as a change of pace from pve. Items and abilities should be able to cross over, and allow players to hone builds across the spectrum.
Dabbled with PVP, did not grab my attention. It's a broken mess where a vaper build can just take you out before you even have time to defend yourself.
PVE needs more work on it, the battlezones are fun don't get me wrong but the queues really need dev attention
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Dabbled with PVP, did not grab my attention. It's a broken mess where a vaper build can just take you out before you even have time to defend yourself.
PVE needs more work on it, the battlezones are fun don't get me wrong but the queues really need dev attention
There are hardly any vapers now, no one needs to use cloak to ambush someone when using kemocite, plasma explosions and so on.
But there were counters back in the day for vapers, the main thing was, don't sit still and use 2 copies of tactical team.
You're talking about games of skill like counter strike or some kind of flight sim game, that's not what this is, this is an MMO, it is a different genre of game and rewards a different set of skills.
No YOU are wrong.
Being an MMO doesn't mean that it must rely on poor game design for PvP. Genre has nothing to do with good game design.
Well i think everyone agree with this. The problem is, we are talking about cryptic...
Comments
The point is, PvP should be a skill based competetive game just like counter strike - and in the past, STO was that game. Today it's just about p2w, power creep and finding the latest exploits. Thats why I think it needs to be separated from PvE...to rebalance, to get rid of all that p2w nonsense.
Anyway I'll just continue playing CS:GO like I did for the last months ignoring this awful Star Trek game.
PvP requires strict balance, and to me STO sorely needs it.
PVE here does not require counterplay, its DPS uber alles, PVP here is wasteland due to insane imbalances from trying to make PVE heroes feel more special everyday
I have a friend who did play Counter Strike:G.O. at competitive levels, tournaments included. I can firmly say that your logic is flawed.
Additionally, STO doesn't require counterplay anymore. C'mon, you need to counter NPCs? It's like the Nandi trait: "immunity to power drains". How often do you get heavily drained (read: complete subsys shutdown) by an NPC? That trait alone killed off an entire science vessel build subclass in PvP.
I don't know any competetive first person shooters that are doing better than CS:GO atm (well, except for CS 1.6 maybe). Most other games don't require skill at all, CS is by far the most complex and hardest to learn&master shooter that has ever existed. But you seem to know better games, maybe you can suggest others? (Don't you dare to say bullsh*t n00b games like CoD or Battlefield!)
Looking at STOs current state makes it very clear to me which games are in a better condition. There's a reason why I stopped playing this TRIBBLE. Cryptic removed the need to use your brain from this game - that is a shame.
Btw, if it makes you feel better - I also enjoy playing some good single player games every now and then like:
Baldurs Gate
Master of Orion
Heroes of Might & Magic
Myst
On what? I know what he did, and arguably you don't know what professional tournaments are.
You are trying to defend the indefensible by comparing a game that has been dumbed down to a few, overpowered and overabused mechanics with a highly successful title that, guess what, happens to have competitive PvP.
And who brought CSGO in the discussion again?
At first i thought it was a joke to read someone comparing STO with Counter Strike.. i was wrong.. you already did it.. ow.. lol. Even if they are 1000% completely different games/generes. amazing.. xD.
Every PvP change affected PvE fighting, so the developers had to re-balance the creatures and missions, and then a new 'flavor of the month' character template appeared that dominated PvP, so they had to re-balance PvP, and that meant they had to go back and redo PvE content...
PvP NOT being separate from PvE wastes a lot of development time.
Yes, the mechanics are completely diffent. The way you play these games can't even be more different. But think about this: PvP in any MMO is build on the same ideas as any other competetive game out there (like LoL, CS, WoT, Hearthstone, FIFA). It's always about the competition, finding new strategies, counter strategies, analysing your enemy and finding an edge to win the match.
The principles are always the same, even for games like chess and sports in general, it's about a skill based competition. All I was saying was, that I wish STO PvP was following the same principles (which it can't btw in it's current state).
What's the problem with wanting a skill based game?
Also, I did not compare STO with CS. I compared attributes of both games since both were mentioned in this topic previously.
The problem is, the way to implement all these aspects vary A LOT from one game or another, specially if they are from different geners. I mean, i played counter strike almost my whole life, and no, you cant compare em. The mechanics are completely different, yes the "human" aspects of pvp remains, but the way you need to deal with your own skills has nothing to do with counter strike, ende the way you end implementing all your strategies are totally different. Its like saying , driving a formula 1 has the same principles as driving a seat-, of course, but in the end it is a completely different experience... and you cant drive a formula 1 like you drive a mid-class turism.
I’m going to forgive most of what you wrote, and assume you mean simply that out grinding/out paying your fellow player should give you an advantage over him in MMO pvp. I think everyone agrees with that. Two players of the same skill, playing their best, the one with the better stuff wins. No problem with that. That exists in a lot of successful pvp that’s on the market now. This is what STO used to be.
The argument here is that the power gap is so wide now between the haves and have nots, it’s no longer competitive between the two. Better gear should give an edge in a competition; it should not be the competition. The cost to compete now is very high, and that doesn’t even begin to describe the cost to remain competitive (t5u JHAS owners nodding sadly).
This should definitely be possible. The "could" is the most important part. If players with less stuff/progression can't compete with you, where is the fun in that? Running around in god-mode, destroying other players without them ever having a chance? Silliness.
There has been a huge exodus from this game. Not calling doom yet, but there was a major shift with DR. Guppies have to have a competitive chance with the whales or the guppies leave the whales to play with themselves. Sometimes it's fun to play with yourself.
Saying that, PVP on STo is in a different league as faction alignment in less important as is spawn camping, so having a vibrant PVP scene would be beneficial as a change of pace from pve. Items and abilities should be able to cross over, and allow players to hone builds across the spectrum.
PVE needs more work on it, the battlezones are fun don't get me wrong but the queues really need dev attention
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
There are hardly any vapers now, no one needs to use cloak to ambush someone when using kemocite, plasma explosions and so on.
But there were counters back in the day for vapers, the main thing was, don't sit still and use 2 copies of tactical team.
Well i think everyone agree with this. The problem is, we are talking about cryptic...