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Erm Cryptic, what about the old Borg STF in Elite?
peterconnorfirst
Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
Hello Community, hello Devs.
With the difficulty restructuring of Delta Rising we got a new Elite mode. Six of the old Borg STF everybody knows and quiet a few players love were left out for that mode eight months ago and we have yet to see one integrated.
Those maps are:
- Infected: The Conduit (ISE)
- Infected Manus (IGE)
- The Cure Applied (CSE)
- The Cure Found (CGE)
- Khitomer in Stasis (KAGE)
- Khitomer Vortex (KASE)
In this thread Id like to discuss among the community why this could be the case and, if possible, get some kind of official response or information about their status.
Now it has been suggested that the way they are they cannot be time gated meaning that elite groups would probably run an Elite mode of ISE in 2-3 minutes grabbing massive rewards continuously. This argumentation makes sense only to some point. That point being that some other maps we currently have in Elite are run in that timeframe each day by me and others while nobody seems to worry.
Another argumentation would be that so few queue up for them because bad teams cant already beat the Advanced mode under the fail criteria still left in place. This may be the case and, form the perspective of a bad group, even be true since other maps pose softer fail criteria even in Elite setting. Nevertheless this is hardly a reason to hold back an Elite mode for the Borg STF because other maps are terribly underused as well.
In some interview it was mentioned that they want to attend to them in the future but no concrete infos have been given. I hope the Devs do realise that players probably love them the way they are/were and would likely not in some revamped time gated/annoying fashion so they should better save themselves the trouble if thats the aim?
In my experience those maps are pretty much the only long term motivating fun maps in Star Trek Online which players run for years independent of their momentary currency/mark needs. They simply do so because they are good maps while so many other maps simply arent and are rejected the moment the respective reputation systems are done. For many players the Borg STF are even the reason why ships are bought, million dil/ec builds are tinkered out and entire communities are formed up around them.
Please discuss how you feel about those maps in the current state of their availability, what you miss and what you want for them to make your STO experience better.
Thank your for participation in advance.
- Connor
Additional comment for the Mods: I did not put this thread in the PvE section on purpose because I could imagine that some discussion points are besides PvE game play and address more general thoughts about game design and reward structuring up to the point of why people play this game at all.
With the difficulty restructuring of Delta Rising we got a new Elite mode. Six of the old Borg STF everybody knows and quiet a few players love were left out for that mode eight months ago and we have yet to see one integrated.
Those maps are:
- Infected: The Conduit (ISE)
- Infected Manus (IGE)
- The Cure Applied (CSE)
- The Cure Found (CGE)
- Khitomer in Stasis (KAGE)
- Khitomer Vortex (KASE)
In this thread Id like to discuss among the community why this could be the case and, if possible, get some kind of official response or information about their status.
Now it has been suggested that the way they are they cannot be time gated meaning that elite groups would probably run an Elite mode of ISE in 2-3 minutes grabbing massive rewards continuously. This argumentation makes sense only to some point. That point being that some other maps we currently have in Elite are run in that timeframe each day by me and others while nobody seems to worry.
Another argumentation would be that so few queue up for them because bad teams cant already beat the Advanced mode under the fail criteria still left in place. This may be the case and, form the perspective of a bad group, even be true since other maps pose softer fail criteria even in Elite setting. Nevertheless this is hardly a reason to hold back an Elite mode for the Borg STF because other maps are terribly underused as well.
In some interview it was mentioned that they want to attend to them in the future but no concrete infos have been given. I hope the Devs do realise that players probably love them the way they are/were and would likely not in some revamped time gated/annoying fashion so they should better save themselves the trouble if thats the aim?
In my experience those maps are pretty much the only long term motivating fun maps in Star Trek Online which players run for years independent of their momentary currency/mark needs. They simply do so because they are good maps while so many other maps simply arent and are rejected the moment the respective reputation systems are done. For many players the Borg STF are even the reason why ships are bought, million dil/ec builds are tinkered out and entire communities are formed up around them.
Please discuss how you feel about those maps in the current state of their availability, what you miss and what you want for them to make your STO experience better.
Thank your for participation in advance.
- Connor
Additional comment for the Mods: I did not put this thread in the PvE section on purpose because I could imagine that some discussion points are besides PvE game play and address more general thoughts about game design and reward structuring up to the point of why people play this game at all.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Care to elaborate why this is the case from your perspective?
My lack of motivation to queue or even premade up for lets say IGA atm is that I get twice the reward in half the time on other PvE maps and that on one entire difficulty setting higher. Not to mention Salvage Tech. An Elite mode would bring me in a position where I at least would get the same reward here and that on a map I consider fun and dont grow tiered of after three years of play while the story mission reused stage Defend Rhi Station Elite gets boring rather quickly and is only consumed by me for my in game income rather than fun.
Im also in a few channels by now where I get calls for ISA rather often and could imagine that an elite version of that would be a huge success and not at all dead. Not everybody queues you know.
Understood and yea I feel the same way about it.
I for my part buy kemocide manuals to check em out Khitomer Vortex and to see if I can smash a Cube faster on my own with them and would not even bother "spending money" for Undine Assault simply because I dont like that map and dont play it. Just Curious how many feel the same way.
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The last thing they need to do, is to TRIBBLE these STF's somehow. We've seen it happening, making things less fun, as much as I hate to be so negative. I don't want the same thing to happen to these, which are my most favorite pass-time in STO, whenever I feel up to doing some kicking.
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That would be because everyone has retreated back to their fleets to do STFs. The OCD fleet is ALWAYS running every map (or most of them).
Just because no one is PUGing it doesn't mean people aren't playing it at all.
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But also this won't happen. I have no idea why the devs didn't make elite versions of these queues, but considering that
a) it was the most obvious thing in the world to do when DR hit,
b) requires a lot less work (I'd imagine) to up the difficulty on these queue than to make new elite queues, and
c) people have been posting threads about this every now and then,
I don't think that the devs will change their minds. They must have thought about it, rejected it, and are continuing to reject it, so, whatever their reasoning, I doubt they'll change their minds.
Salute Admiral and thanks for comment.
Well true, past experience has shown that Cryptics ambition to enhance difficulty is mostly confined to hit point increases. Nevertheless the available means in game to cope with them are available at the same time. Eight months after the initial restructuring of the difficulty settings we are very well in a position where the break even point has been reached for player damage vs. critter hit points in advanced. Aside from the fails which need to be kept in mind the current advanced almost feels easier than pre DR Elite or at least the same. True those Borg Elite critters we have seen so far (HSE, BDE & VCE) bring in a new magnitude but not a one elite teams wouldnt dare to challenge each day IF the rewards to do so are just. :cool:
Other options which would lead to the same in the end but would work to ensure fun and variety a bit would be simply to exchange the critters in different settings. Ithink ISE with 3 tac cubes instead of regular ones and a unimatrix ship in the end instead of a tac cube would be a nice start.
Yea and thats quiet sad. In the current state they are in the Borg STF almost feel engineered to be unappealing. While being under-rewarding for good teams the obstacles there for a bad pug you may find yourself in seem harder than by jodarkriders pointed out Bug Hunt pug and that in Elite.
But yea, your diagnosis reads sound. Still it almost feels like we deal with an embarrassed Rock Star who made some cool hits a long time ago and who does anything he can not to have to play his old stuff on current concerts. To bad when he has failed make greater hits ever since. :P
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We all know Delta Rising took a almighty swing at public queues with the shield and hit point sponges they introduced and auto fail conditions, and thus have probably put a lot of people off queuing for a random team, DPS requirements to run them now have increased due to these changes. Some players are not up to the new "cough"! challenge or some find it boring shooting a sponge.
So introducing an Elite version of the old borg STF's would be a waste of time and resources for the Dev's as they would only benefit private channels and pre made teams playing them. Sure these channels would appreciate a higher level of difficulty but as far a public queues go they would fall into the reporting error catagory
I think I got the sentiment here but aside from playing in fleets and premades only, where we tend roflestomp a lot of the available elite contend, quiet a few I know enjoy a challenge so taking a few pugs along is simply necessary to set the difficulty straight or keep the fun up. As a result you will find me for example as part of the queue list almost each day.
Problem is just the selection currently. A lot of the available elites are simply boring in the long run while the mentioned Borg STF continue to be motivating and fun but are unfortunately totally under-rewarding compared to almost all other maps if u take time/risk/reward ratios into account.
In my theory elite level rewards on those maps, even under consideration of elite level conditions, would attract a lot of players to run them. Most peeps I know currently seem to play maps which have elite available and do so preferably in that mode. Pugs as well as premades by the way. Especially on ground. Just compare DRSA and DRSE. The latter pops in a min, the former perhaps once in three days. I bet this could easily be the same with IGA, CGA & KAGA and the reintroduction of IGE, CGE and KAGE would change a lot there.
In my estimate, if they would set up KAGE and hand out proper rewards based on the time of the auto fail (15 mins), like they do on other stages already (DRSE 2 x 3 minutes), this map would suddenly find itself on top of ground run charts again, just like it once was.
I really think that Crypic simply does not want that but cant get into my head why.
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Some kind of account wide CD time of 30 minutes is something I could live with and not an at all bad idea for a successfully completed map. Problem here is just Cryptics event oriented attitude to influence game log in numbers.
Just imagine what kind of drama this would cause during next Crystalline or Mirror event.
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People would still run them for testing, or making up the party numbers in pre-mades to help out others or just for giggles.
GET RID OF THE AUTO FAILS!
This was (one of) the worst decisions Cryptic has ever made. I don't know what possessed them to introduce mission failures on what were "optionals" but it has turned many players off even bothering with some of the STF's. It's much more profitable to just do the "cake runs".
Make Omega Rep gear actually worth something again! They need to totally revamp Omega Rep gear, and also adjust it's costs to match the level of other Reps if they want players to get back into them.
I know myself, all I do Omega for is the Costume Unlocks (and even that is primarily only on KDF toons for the KHG set) I never actually use the Rep gear, as there are now far superior options available.
If they're not going to put the Elites back, the accolades should be changed so we can earn them on Advanced.
I used to love running the old borg ground missions, Kage/Cge and Ige i was pretty good at those, Hive not so good lack of practice, but tbh i haven't run a single one since Delta Rising hit. Whats put me off was the intial brick wall that was introduced when it went live, i tried space and although the difficulty hadn't changed, the hit points and shields of npc's were outrageous, i know they scaled it back since i make odd runs with DPS10K/30K for space, but after hitting that wall in space, i've been reluctant to play grounds due to not wanting to have the same experience.
I miss running ground with Dennis and John Crichton from the SpartanElitestf channel, 2 very very good players to play borg ground missions with.
It would be nice to hear something , but I'm afraid that this (along with the supposed changes to the optionals that started with "Azure Nebula Rescue") kinda seemed to have stopped cold .
It's all a matter of perception I guess , but when you started talking about "old Borg STF's" , my mind jumped to these ... :
'Infected' episode trailer
Khitomer Accord Trailer
The Cure Trailer
... and while the last trailer is the weakest one , there is this glorious mish-mash , to remind us what we should strive for ...
I've got to agree with you completely on this one. Really want to take on IGE and try for the speed run again. Hopefully the Borg will have some new tricks that doesn't involve having their health ramped up this time. Because let's face it all the extra elite tac drones do nothing other than slow experienced ground pounders down. Kinda fun though when the less experienced get trounced by them, I know I shouldn't laugh since we were all there at that point once.
So yeah come on guys give us the elites please. Oh and whilst I'm thinking about it, the AoE knock back from the elite tac drones is it intentional or a bug? The question has been raised before but as far as I'm aware no response was given official or otherwise.
Well fail criteria seem to be an interesting and work in progress topic around here.
In an elite mode Im not necessarily opposed to them but at the same time cans say I like them all and thereby prefer to have em around.
The reason most likely is some of the fails in elite sit well with me while others do not. Something like If all 5 team members are dead the mission fails is cool. I mean if a total team destruction does not mean game over what would? Its also a fail I can directly influence with my play. Destruction of the Kang is and always was a rather cool fail criteria in my opinion simply because its the mission objective you know. A team too weak to beat n unimatrix ship because it heals itself faster than the group can handle also works fine for me.
On the other hand we currently have a lot of annoying timer around who do not do much good I think. They are not challenging me a bit and are already pretty much decided b4 a team even lands on map. I mean if a buddy and me want to hit NTTE I can decide to ask in DPS-G-400 or DPS-G-200 or Fleet or pug or mix and I for myself could pick my 700 DPS Tac or my 100 DPS weakest Sci char to influence that timer. Only in cases where I manage to successfully assemble a "certain" group which is able to make it just in time I get the challenge I seek and sorry that concept for me is just plain and simple stupid.
In most cases those fails simply range from being not even noteworthy in a good group to undoable obstacles in a bad group. And thats hardly challenging for either of them.
I think people can live with opponents hard to beat just fine but they should be able to do so in their own time.
Thanks for bringing those fails up the two of you. Perhaps this is something Cryptic will consider when or rather if they introduce an elite mode which they probably won't and quiet surely get wrong anyway.
... Still cant figure out why Cryptic. Do you simply dont like the Borg STF or are the devs who originally made them long gone and the rest of you can't handle?
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Cool thx 4 sharing those. I arrived in STO in late season 5 where those combined STF were already spitted. Id love to enjoy them in their original form and even gladly in an elite setting which would make them special again. Would also address time gating a bit but also fun and atmosphere.
However Cryptic would need to carefully adjust rewards there to make them equally rewarding for todays lets do Rhi Elite in three minutes crowds.
I defiantly feel you there. With DR the first few runs I did were like a shock. So far I never had to think about who to take in teams or how good another one is. Suddenly it all mattered. Personally I found Elite Ground (or advanced in the Borg STF case) a lot more accessible for most players I know. Reason is not that I think of it to be easier or anything but simply less demanding compared to complex ship builds, game mechanics, available stuff, 100 mil ec traids, starship traits and who know what else. On ground you only have handful of items and if you got the practice and know how to use your stuff you are usually good to go rather quickly so please give it a try.
It is really bizarre eight moths later, after levelling to 60, one primary and secondary tree filled, a few ship traits bought and installed as well as a couple of hundred thousands of Dil for upgrades spent the advanced stuff suddenly runs by itself again.
And now what?!? Fails in advanced get removed making it "Normal+" and NO Elite to be seen
Think Crypric is trying to fix here so ok but it still somehow leaves a distasteful feeling of all for nothing? if we dont get a worthy Elite mode for the Borg STF.
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