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Gameplay Mechanic: Hull-Energy res
yreodred
Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
Since beginning of STO torpedoes are overshadowed by energy weapons.
Except for more or less exotic torpedo boat builds they have almost no use, although in "real" Star Trek most bigger ships (bigger than a runabout
) did have a certain quantity of torpedoes at hand.
Energy weapons rule the game, if it's DHCs or FAW builds doesn't matter.
The problem is that Shields have a 75% Kinetic damage reduction, affecting all torpedoes.
This makes Energy Weapons the weapons of choice against everything.
In order to give both weapons types a function, Hull should get a higher base damage reduction to energy weapons.
The idea is:
Energy weapons -> Strong against shields -> weak against hull
Torpedoes -> Strong against hull -> weak against shields
The advantage of this would be that both weapon types would had their advantages, but none would be powerful enough to ignore the other.
The goal is to make people use both types of weapons, pure energy weapon or torpedo builds wouldn't be desireable anymore.
Thoughts?
Except for more or less exotic torpedo boat builds they have almost no use, although in "real" Star Trek most bigger ships (bigger than a runabout
) did have a certain quantity of torpedoes at hand.Energy weapons rule the game, if it's DHCs or FAW builds doesn't matter.
The problem is that Shields have a 75% Kinetic damage reduction, affecting all torpedoes.
This makes Energy Weapons the weapons of choice against everything.
In order to give both weapons types a function, Hull should get a higher base damage reduction to energy weapons.
The idea is:
Energy weapons -> Strong against shields -> weak against hull
Torpedoes -> Strong against hull -> weak against shields
The advantage of this would be that both weapon types would had their advantages, but none would be powerful enough to ignore the other.
The goal is to make people use both types of weapons, pure energy weapon or torpedo builds wouldn't be desireable anymore.
Thoughts?
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
A tale of two Picards
https://youtu.be/d-f3bscZa0E?t=105(also applies to Star Trek in general)
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This should be a possibility.
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Wouldn't it be easier to lower the shield res vs kinetic weapons?
No, because pure energy weapons/torpedo builds would still be favoured. The point is to stimulate mixed types of builds.
This would require much more than just park and FAW/CRF until the cows come home.
You actually had to maneuver and use your weapons according to situation (fireing torps when enemy shields are down.).
Pure spacebar FAW spam wouldn't work anymore (to a certain degree of course).
PnP Red Box DM & Player (74 - ?). NWN + SoU + HotU (4-03),
NWN Diamond Edition, Neverwinter Nights Complete (NWN + NWN2).
Its a sound theory, yes. But it just heavily impacts pugs. And most pugs still struggle on advanced.
Why do you assume just because it is a pug that there would be incapable of playing the game?
The reason pugs on advanced struggle is not that players outside of premades are unable to play the game. The problem is that the game itself does nothing to prepare you for the queued content and further never encourages interaction with other players until that point. Now you have content that suddenly requires a completely different approach from anything you played before and it suddenly (deally) requires you to communicate with other players. Up to that point, however, the game made sure you never have to see another player, isolating you all the time in tiny isntances.
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Then again, the whole of engineering consoles need a severe revamp anyway. So why not? I like the idea. :cool:
It's silly that Energy Weapons don't lose any effectiveness, have no CDs worth considering, and have their special attacks (FAW, RF, etc) be duration based, whereas Torps and Mines are "one off", pop them and you're done.
I think the easiest thing would be to either reduce Shields' innate kinetic resist, or introduce a "sliding resistance", where resistance declines proportional to shield HP.
FWIW, the "Torps for Hull, Energy for Shields" mechanic was pioneered by Star Trek: Legacy.
I personally don't believe that Queued content is that vastly different than generic encounters, missions, and FEs; I think most of the struggle comes from the vastly different HP values. It takes 5 seconds to pop a Sphere in a Red Alert, but like 6x that in an Advanced queue. The different optional/fail objectives are a curve ball, but I don't think they're so profoundly different that simply reading the description/requirements isn't enough to understand how to do it.
These threads just come off as people whining because they can't play the game, and it's irritating.
5x Fleet Neutronium
1x Field Exciter [RESALL]
Captain skill in threat control and armor platings
2x AUX2DAMP + Blue/Purple Antimatter DOFF
Cruiser Mastery Skills
Polarize Hull with AHOD for global cool down
If you wanna get real fancy, toss in the Bounty Hunter's friend Lobi console
There ya go, Armor rating of 300-350 depending on a few factors. Which equates to about 75% resistance to all energy AND kinetic weapons. Toss in the Borg 2-Piece, ET and a few science skills and Supremacy/ Plasmonic Leech for high AUX power and you will be nearly invincible.
That was a build I just made up, there are a few other resist skills I'm sure I forgot like Cruiser Arrays.
Even if you just get a Field Exciter with RESA/ RESB and forget the Lobi console you can still break 65% without spending hardly anything.
Now tell me that we need to add massive Energy Damage reduction to Hull's? :rolleyes:
75% invulnerability to energy weapons + 75% resists would mean only about 6.25% of damage would ever even touch my hull. I'm perfectly ok with that... Are you?
It's about a basic game mechanics change with a great effect in making STO more Star Trek like.
Your suggestion surely is well-meant, but missing the point.
The intention of my suggestion is to make BOTH Energy weapons AND torpedoes equally important.
Each weapon type should get a speciality: torpedoes (against hull) and energy weapons (against shields), to stimulate mixed (Star Trek like) builds.
I understand, but as my post shows you the current gameplay mechanics were not designed with that in mind... They would need to completely redo resistances to make it work without being overpowered.
Simply put, a dog can't meow.
Funny, my dog can meow. (seriously)
Video or it didn't happen.
I generally think that innate 75% resist is bad for gameplay and without any real logic.
I can't video... I'll try to get a pic if I can. Internet is out right now.
Keep in mind they are constantly change the formula and it's been a long time since I've flown a tank. I prefer escorts, which I can hit 60-65% resists on pretty easily.
You seem to completely missunderstand the point of this thread.
It is not about making individual player ships more resistant to torpedoes or energy weapons, it is about changing the way this game is played.
There is no need to use torpedoes in the first place even in PvE, unless energy weapons would be much more ineffective against enemy hulls than now. I couldn't care less how this is archieved, but increasing hull resistances to energy weapons seems to be the obvious way.
I understand the point your trying to make. My point is that the entire damage and resistance mechanics for the game would have to be rewritten and that would be extremely difficult. It's like a line of dominoes, each affecting the other. I don't think you understand how much of the games mechanics would have to be rewritten to make this happen. Now I'm perfectly ok with new mechanics but it would cost the DEV team a fortune in time and resources and they're already spread pretty thin as it is.
Technically speaking torpedoes already are considerably more effective against hull you just have to know how to use them. Timing + the right skills and traits can make them extremely deadly. Buy a command cruiser load it with Vaadwaur Polaron Weapons and The romulan Plasma Torp. Load your kinetic skills, traits and bridge abilities. I think you'll find it quite potent against heavily shielded enemies.
Your right, they changed the formula again. I can hit 70% on my old build, I'll have to tinker with it some more.
Giving every hull a 25-35% base increase to all energy types could already be sufficient, without making everyone hit the cap too easy, especially since you get less and less benefit the closer you get to the cap.
What would you do to give make both types weapons AND torpedoes necessary?
You surely can't be pleased with todays FAW spam everywhere.
Let me put it this way, FAW spam is easy and effective and people are lazy. That's why they do it. Other builds are Equal or superior they just require more work. The DPS record by RyanSTO is on an escort and using Phasers no less! :rolleyes:
People don't use torpedoes because it takes work for them to be most effective, sleeping on a space is easy so that's why everyone does it. These things don't seems related but they actually are. If you enjoy using torpedoes and they work for you then I wouldn't bother yourself with what the mouth-breathing idiots are doing. I'm running a drain build In a Scryer for fun right now, it shuts stuff the hell down and makes it easy picking for my Tetryon beams.
Phasers or Nadion Saturation Bomb?
I could have sworn we all danced this dance not long ago on these boards, but oh well
I'd make it simpler.
Remove the default, heavy Kinetic Resists inherent on all shields. It works itself out, really. Energy Weapons still shine due to being spammable every second. Projectile Weapons, Torps, Mines, have reload times, some considerably longer, and to cut that down, valuable build space has to be given up. The balance is already there should default Shield Kinetic Resists go kaput.
And Enhanced battlecloak TRIBBLE every NPC and Player ship in the game... :rolleyes:
LOL, you ever flown Enhanced Battle Cloak ships in PVP and PVE? Flown them as well as against them? It's not as OP as people make it out to be. You have to be more careful than flying with standard or regular battle cloaks.
1. When you fire a torpedo or use an ability other than on yourself while EBC is up, you temporarily dip out of cloaks for a few seconds. You have zero shields up and bare hull exposed on ships that have the lowest hull ratings in the game.
2. In Single Player PVE, this is bad. Because the NPCs immediately will start hammering away at you the moment you are exposed for those few seconds. With zero shields up, you're going to feel every hit that connects on those low hulled ships like the B'Rel / T'Varo / Faeht. In SP, I don't bother with a Enhanced Battle Cloak heavy combat style.
3. In Multi-Player PVE content, you have more room to play, in particular if you have good damage dealers in the team. But with you doing Enhanced Battle Cloak flying a lot, you still have to be wary with those shots. In Multi-Player Queues, the NPCs can put up a lot of return fire and lots of torps flying around. You have to be very careful still but not as high risk as it is in SP content.
4. PVP... This is where Enhanced Battle Cloak really shines or will get you killed quicker than anything else before. You really need savvy here. A player that is not used to fighting against cloaked vessels will have a tough time. They can be quite elusive and it seems the initiative is always with them.
But once you know how cloaks work, that magic is gone. There are means to detect cloaked ships well but any cloak vessel will be vulnerable to that. When you fire on a cloaked player, you're hitting bare hull unless they decloak themselves. A second or two of fire is all you need. It was also a fun Mini-Game to have good cloak detection and kill cloaked players. The moment they fire or use a non-self-targeting ability, they dip out of cloaks temporarily with Enhanced Battle Cloak. That is all the time you need to punish them.
Next, in PVP, there's LOTS of AOE Spam and Spam of other flavors. BFAW, GW, TR, TS, CSV, Hangar Units, etc. And don't forget mines. The AOEs from GW, TR, especially Mega GW, will pop you out of cloaks from surprising ranges. Also, you better be damn careful when keeping Enhanced Battle Cloaks on with lots of combat going. Those few seconds you dip out of cloaks is enough time for a straw beam/cannon/torpedo shot to go your way. And you don't need much to kill a light hull ship that Enhanced Battle Cloak ships typically are. I've killed more than enough T'Varos with a Torp Spread that wasn't aimed at them but someone else. They just happened to be in the area when I fired it, and Torp Spreads *never miss*.
A wonderful little trick is someone else lying in wait, waiting for cloakers to come in range and pick them off. Whether they're detected or they expose themselves out of cloaks to fire / use an ability.
Another little trick in a heavy combat area is dropping mines at the peripheral edges of the fight. Past the typical weapon ranges everyone at the center of the fight. Why? This is where cloaked vessels gather, just outside weapons range and close enough they can see the details of the fight. This is where they prepare their attack runs. This is where well placed mines catch them.
Another hilarious trick is dropping mines in the middle of nowhere but areas you observe are high traffic areas. You can catch a cloaked vessel like this as they go Full Impulse Power with Cloaks up
There are also things you can do that will disable cloaks temporarily once combat is initiated. Enhanced Battle Cloak ships do not fare well under heavy fire in PVP. The loss of Cloaks/Aux Power is the worst thing a ship like a Faeht, B'Rel, T'Varo can suffer.
There's lots of dirty little tricks for and against cloak warfare. Enhanced Battle Cloak isn't the End-All-Be-All Ticket you think it is. It can make you quite vulnerable with the smallest mistake and not as good situation awareness.
Contrary to some beliefs out there, you are not invisible 100% of the time in combat, and even if you were... There are ways to find you. If not, pop you while your cloaks are still up and not even detecting you
But couldn't there some way to break cryptics energy weapons dominance somehow?
I'm not speaking about making torpedoes overpowered strong so they outshine Energy Weapons, that would only lead to more power creep. I'm also not speaking about making energy weapons deliberately weaker. I simply looking for a place for both types of weapons.
I just refuse to belive that things have to be like as they are. Flying FAW "boats" is about a thrilling as doing one and the same STF for the 354 time in a row.
That's not why i started playing STO and certainly not why i want to play a Star Trek game.
EBC is not as amazing as you make it out to be. If you're using it as a torp boat(and not an instant vaper), it's a lot more dangerous to you, the user.
Why? If you're vaping, you're pulling out of combat range and waiting for your CDs to come off. You only come in range when you're about to pop someone.
If you have EBC, you're almost certainly using it as a torp boat, as that is it's biggest advantage. That means you're sticking within the 10KM engagement range. There's loads of ways to get decloaked and busted that way. For example, my PvP-spec GravWells usually come with at least a 9KM range. And you can boost it up to 20KM.
Unless of course its a PvP torpedo boat. ^^ 60% res and 100k torpedo hits aren't enough.
This is true, though Id have to say cloakers can run like the lows they are, as well youd have to atleast HOPE they are smart enough to avoid a gravity well. Mmm and how about that 40km stealth detection, am I right
A simple fix, would be for them to potentially increase torpedoes dmg vs npc's, while keeping them as is for pvp purposes.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!