"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It amazes me sometimes how quickly people forget there's a person behind the posts, one who clearly has been pushed past several limits and hurt quite personally to need to smack down their aggressors like that.
At least I'd like to believe and hope it's forgetfulness and not a twisted enjoyment of knowing what they're doing to people emotionally.
I wish it was as you say, but people really think that people who work on a MMO are their personal slaves.
I wish it was as you say, but people really think that people who work on a MMO are their personal slaves.
I think that's a little misleading. Slaves were actually appreciated for the work they did. Abusing slaves did happen, but the slavemasters had to make money and recognized that slaves did require food and rest, and overly abused, unhealthy slaves made for inefficient labor.
No, people who work on an MMO are actually treated worse than slaves. The number of people on the forums who simply want game developers to pay their bills with good intentions, who work beyond established labor laws to fix or do things to please them as quickly as possible, who do not care about their families, their physical or mental health, or their ability to do their jobs correctly (as opposed to quickly)... yeah, no. Slaves were historically treated with more respect.
People who work on MMOs are treated more like subhumans. The amount of dehumanization I see on the forums is astounding, but once you reduce a human being to something less than human -- it is easier to mentally justify treating them as something else other than another person.
Then again, some people who work on MMOs are toxic sociopaths who are just as hurtful as people I've seen on internet forums, so it's pretty give-and-take. But I won't say the amount of those personalities are anywhere near "equal".
I think that's a little misleading. Slaves were actually appreciated for the work they did. Abusing slaves did happen, but the slavemasters had to make money and recognized that slaves did require food and rest, and overly abused, unhealthy slaves made for inefficient labor.
No, people who work on an MMO are actually treated worse than slaves. The number of people on the forums who simply want game developers to pay their bills with good intentions, who work beyond established labor laws to fix or do things to please them as quickly as possible, who do not care about their families, their physical or mental health, or their ability to do their jobs correctly (as opposed to quickly)... yeah, no. Slaves were historically treated with more respect.
People who work on MMOs are treated more like subhumans. The amount of dehumanization I see on the forums is astounding, but once you reduce a human being to something less than human -- it is easier to mentally justify treating them as something else other than another person.
Then again, some people who work on MMOs are toxic sociopaths who are just as hurtful as people I've seen on internet forums, so it's pretty give-and-take. But I won't say the amount of those personalities are anywhere near "equal".
OK WHAT THE ACTUAL F***.
An MOO game company sells a service, under what model is irrelevant.
Keeping the service running IS the one bloody one thing the company HAS to do as a priority.
Working overtime is the result of the management saying "no we do not need one more guy for the night shift" etc.
The company saving manpower shortcomings are not the customers fault.
I did not decide not to hire additional people, someone at cryptic /PWE/what-ever-company did that.
And last time i checked, none here on the forums took a cryptic employee to the market and sold him so stuff that analogy back into the shack of moronic things to say you pulled it out from.
+ People venting frustration and anger on the internet, the one place you can most easily avoid going to, is always preferable to people going nutty and appearing in front of your house.
So tone down the hyperbowl... cuz your aim is off. Never gonna hit them all.
i think it was more a moment where trendy lost her "zen" with something (?) for a moment after seeing it repeatedly. but still she has to maintain a professional image for PWE, if she starts resorting to her own name calling on behalf of PWE, its not really helping much and the encouragement here to her is not really helpful either.
while everyone here sees another side to trendy and want to encourage it, i would not, i mean once or twice is fine to make a very serious point but everytime? no that would be a disservice to her and PWE.
beyond that, its not my concern what trendy does.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
An MOO game company sells a service, under what model is irrelevant.
Keeping the service running IS the one bloody one thing the company HAS to do as a priority.
Working overtime is the result of the management saying "no we do not need one more guy for the night shift" etc.
The company saving manpower shortcomings are not the customers fault.
I did not decide not to hire additional people, someone at cryptic /PWE/what-ever-company did that.
And last time i checked, none here on the forums took a cryptic employee to the market and sold him so stuff that analogy back into the shack of moronic things to say you pulled it out from.
+ People venting frustration and anger on the internet, the one place you can most easily avoid going to, is always preferable to people going nutty and appearing in front of your house.
So tone down the hyperbowl... cuz your aim is off. Never gonna hit them all.
Y'know... I remember one time, some years ago. I forget what the forums were alight about, but my how they burned. There was so much fury. Dan Stahl was EP at the time, and had started to communicate with us about it. But then he went silent for a while. People clamored for another response from him, as he was the only one talking. But for a while there was nothing.
A couple of hours later, he pipes back up. The forums lashed out, furious he would disappear like that in the middle of that debacle. So, he explained himself - he had to go pick up his infant child.
Then they continued to yell at him. It didn't matter that he had responsibilities as a father. All they cared about was solving their vidya problem. I've never been more ashamed of this community than that day.
The comparison to slaves is a bit excessive, but the principle is sound - the anonymity of the internet allows us to dehumanize the devs, and because of this, they are often treated like subhumans who should be able to churn out content and fixes like clockwork. They are verbally abused on a regular basis, expected to work nonstop, expected to simply produce results from seemingly thin air.
Y'know... I remember one time, some years ago. I forget what the forums were alight about, but my how they burned. There was so much fury. Dan Stahl was EP at the time, and had started to communicate with us about it. But then he went silent for a while. People clamored for another response from him, as he was the only one talking. But for a while there was nothing.
A couple of hours later, he pipes back up. The forums lashed out, furious he would disappear like that in the middle of that debacle. So, he explained himself - he had to go pick up his infant child.
Then they continued to yell at him. It didn't matter that he had responsibilities as a father. All they cared about was solving their vidya problem. I've never been more ashamed of this community than that day.
The comparison to slaves is a bit excessive, but the principle is sound - the anonymity of the internet allows us to dehumanize the devs, and because of this, they are often treated like subhumans who should be able to churn out content and fixes like clockwork. They are verbally abused on a regular basis, expected to work nonstop, expected to simply produce results from seemingly thin air.
But the are getting paid to do it, so of course they have to work 24 hours / 7 days. And even if the didn't, they are professionals, so they should be able to fix everything in the regular time frame practically immediately.
I think a problem the job as game/software developer has is that no one not in the business really knows what you do, or how you do it. But it doesn't go with the respect that, say a surgeon would gain.
There is kinda the assumption because it's "soft"ware it must be an easy thing to do, or because it's "virtual" it's not real, or (for game development specifically) it's a game, so it must be just as playfully be resolved as a game is played....
I guess it would be nice to be treated more like a "half-god in white" (surgeon/doctor)... A serious professino, only the most capable people can do it, and only the most decidcated people, all virtous beyond reproach...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
i think it was more a moment where trendy lost her "zen" with something (?) for a moment after seeing it repeatedly. but still she has to maintain a professional image for PWE, if she starts resorting to her own name calling on behalf of PWE, its not really helping much and the encouragement here to her is not really helpful either.
while everyone here sees another side to trendy and want to encourage it, i would not, i mean once or twice is fine to make a very serious point but everytime? no that would be a disservice to her and PWE.
beyond that, its not my concern what trendy does.
Just to make things clear, and setting aside the personal bias in your opinion, Trendy did not name-call anyone and only resorted to forceful action when things got out of hand, for which she is fully justified in both her action and her reaction. She does not always make a serious point, but I expect her and other staff to do what they need to whenever they need to. The fact that some users were out of line is conveniently ignored by those who want to feel justified in misbehaving, which makes what Trendy does a concern to all because she wouldn't have to be tough if provocateurs weren't nasty first. The world being the way it is, don't expect any different.
Anyways, figured it be only a matter of time before the ill-behaviored derailed this thread as they did other supportive threads. At least I had the foresight to make an independent thread and trap their posts so now they can't edit them and they couldn't accuse me of hijacking another's thread, rather had to do it themselves by making the thread about me. It wasn't and neither is this post.
Trendy is a player and deals with troublemakers as well, but she is also a CM empowered by support and powers. That's why though I support her, I don't consider her one of the 'crowd'. Down here is the way things really are, where the malicious prey on the decent because they weasel through the rules. The odds are rigged in favor of bad guys because the current system does not adequately address issues between players themselves. That's what in-game moderators would be good for, a system currently almost non-existant ( - regardless what trolls will say, I don't mention mods for want to be one. I don't want to be a mod here, never have. When I help players or share ideas I expect neither reward nor malice in return and I'd rather prefer nothing than the usual vitriol.) Any improvements limiting potential for in-game abuses is welcome. I know stuff can be done, someone in charge just needs to take interest.
Just to make things clear, and setting aside the personal bias in your opinion, Trendy did not name-call anyone and only resorted to forceful action when things got out of hand, for which she is fully justified in both her action and her reaction. She does not always make a serious point, but I expect her and other staff to do what they need to whenever they need to. The fact that some users were out of line is conveniently ignored by those who want to feel justified in misbehaving, which makes what Trendy does a concern to all because she wouldn't have to be tough if provocateurs weren't nasty first. The world being the way it is, don't expect any different.
Anyways, figured it be only a matter of time before the ill-behaviored derailed this thread as they did other supportive threads. At least I had the foresight to make an independent thread and trap their posts so now they can't edit them and they couldn't accuse me of hijacking another's thread, rather had to do it themselves by making the thread about me. It wasn't and neither is this post.
Trendy is a player and deals with troublemakers as well, but she is also a CM empowered by support and powers. That's why though I support her, I don't consider her one of the 'crowd'. Down here is the way things really are, where the malicious prey on the decent because they weasel through the rules. The odds are rigged in favor of bad guys because the current system does not adequately address issues between players themselves. That's what in-game moderators would be good for, a system currently almost non-existant ( - regardless what trolls will say, I don't mention mods for want to be one. I don't want to be a mod here, never have. When I help players or share ideas I expect neither reward nor malice in return and I'd rather prefer nothing than the usual vitriol.) Any improvements limiting potential for in-game abuses is welcome. I know stuff can be done, someone in charge just needs to take interest.
first off, dont arrogantly presume i was biased, on the contrary, trendy has to maintain her image of professionalism, this is after all her job. she can not act like the rest of the playerbase who have an opinion. anything she says good, bad or indifferent reflects on PWE as well. she is the public face of PWE and because of that as i stated, she has to maintain a professional image. there is no bias in any of that, its simply a fact of life that you want your job, you have to do well at it to keep it and that means following the rules that exist. this includes dealing with threats.
she could of just as easily not posted anything and reported it along and appropriate action would of been dealt with backstage. the difference being that she chose to fairly warn those around her as to the consequences, thats apart of her position and job.
my point in all that is that she should not pander to the threatmakers by acting like them to a point. would you pander to bullies by bullying others in return to try make yourself feel better? of course you would not. you are better than that and so trendy has to be. thats my opinion on the subject
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
first off, dont arrogantly presume i was biased, on the contrary, trendy has to maintain her image of professionalism, this is after all her job. she can not act like the rest of the playerbase who have an opinion. anything she says good, bad or indifferent reflects on PWE as well. she is the public face of PWE and because of that as i stated, she has to maintain a professional image. there is no bias in any of that, its simply a fact of life that you want your job, you have to do well at it to keep it and that means following the rules that exist. this includes dealing with threats.
she could of just as easily not posted anything and reported it along and appropriate action would of been dealt with backstage. the difference being that she chose to fairly warn those around her as to the consequences, thats apart of her position and job.
my point in all that is that she should not pander to the threatmakers by acting like them to a point. would you pander to bullies by bullying others in return to try make yourself feel better? of course you would not. you are better than that and so trendy has to be. thats my opinion on the subject
You want to know what is an arrogant presumption? That we (notice I do not mention any personal denominators) as mere users should say how a CM supposed to behave according to how we suppose things are professional.
Thank you for the vote of confidence in the later part of your post, but neither me, you, nor any other users have the slightest control over how Trendy acts, talks, behaves, works, dresses, eats or anything else.
I get what you're trying to say that she should behave with professionalism befitting the company, which I agree with and believe she does in her way; but saying that she should behave in any particular manner when at times the ones she has to deal with feel bound by no such restrictions is like laying conditions and expecting failure. Those are the conditions we are tied with and you've seen how poorly that turns out sometimes.
The player base is a community in flux, always needing relevant approaches to different issues. I'd rather leave what Trendy does to Trendy to do as circumstances require. And in reality, both Trendy and our fellow players are to a limited degree our concern, because we are part of the same community and if we are true, we'll only want the best for it; because in turn it brings the best for us.
Comments
It has to be yellow for More Dakka
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I wish it was as you say, but people really think that people who work on a MMO are their personal slaves.
I think that's a little misleading. Slaves were actually appreciated for the work they did. Abusing slaves did happen, but the slavemasters had to make money and recognized that slaves did require food and rest, and overly abused, unhealthy slaves made for inefficient labor.
No, people who work on an MMO are actually treated worse than slaves. The number of people on the forums who simply want game developers to pay their bills with good intentions, who work beyond established labor laws to fix or do things to please them as quickly as possible, who do not care about their families, their physical or mental health, or their ability to do their jobs correctly (as opposed to quickly)... yeah, no. Slaves were historically treated with more respect.
People who work on MMOs are treated more like subhumans. The amount of dehumanization I see on the forums is astounding, but once you reduce a human being to something less than human -- it is easier to mentally justify treating them as something else other than another person.
Then again, some people who work on MMOs are toxic sociopaths who are just as hurtful as people I've seen on internet forums, so it's pretty give-and-take. But I won't say the amount of those personalities are anywhere near "equal".
Somebody posted a thread saying that at least the folks in STO aren't as violent as the folks in SWTOR.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1457391
Somebody posted a thread saying Scotland Yard is off their rocker thinking Star Trek fans are a threat.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1461611
A bunch of folks decided to prove both of them wrong in the retiring the lolwut pearl thread.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1458421
OK WHAT THE ACTUAL F***.
An MOO game company sells a service, under what model is irrelevant.
Keeping the service running IS the one bloody one thing the company HAS to do as a priority.
Working overtime is the result of the management saying "no we do not need one more guy for the night shift" etc.
The company saving manpower shortcomings are not the customers fault.
I did not decide not to hire additional people, someone at cryptic /PWE/what-ever-company did that.
And last time i checked, none here on the forums took a cryptic employee to the market and sold him so stuff that analogy back into the shack of moronic things to say you pulled it out from.
+ People venting frustration and anger on the internet, the one place you can most easily avoid going to, is always preferable to people going nutty and appearing in front of your house.
So tone down the hyperbowl... cuz your aim is off. Never gonna hit them all.
Uhh, about that, did you notice the suggestion I made after Salami's post?
I really think that'd minimize the collateral damage here. (Including, apparently, letting you catch up on your ships as well. :P)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
while everyone here sees another side to trendy and want to encourage it, i would not, i mean once or twice is fine to make a very serious point but everytime? no that would be a disservice to her and PWE.
beyond that, its not my concern what trendy does.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Y'know... I remember one time, some years ago. I forget what the forums were alight about, but my how they burned. There was so much fury. Dan Stahl was EP at the time, and had started to communicate with us about it. But then he went silent for a while. People clamored for another response from him, as he was the only one talking. But for a while there was nothing.
A couple of hours later, he pipes back up. The forums lashed out, furious he would disappear like that in the middle of that debacle. So, he explained himself - he had to go pick up his infant child.
Then they continued to yell at him. It didn't matter that he had responsibilities as a father. All they cared about was solving their vidya problem. I've never been more ashamed of this community than that day.
The comparison to slaves is a bit excessive, but the principle is sound - the anonymity of the internet allows us to dehumanize the devs, and because of this, they are often treated like subhumans who should be able to churn out content and fixes like clockwork. They are verbally abused on a regular basis, expected to work nonstop, expected to simply produce results from seemingly thin air.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
I think a problem the job as game/software developer has is that no one not in the business really knows what you do, or how you do it. But it doesn't go with the respect that, say a surgeon would gain.
There is kinda the assumption because it's "soft"ware it must be an easy thing to do, or because it's "virtual" it's not real, or (for game development specifically) it's a game, so it must be just as playfully be resolved as a game is played....
I guess it would be nice to be treated more like a "half-god in white" (surgeon/doctor)... A serious professino, only the most capable people can do it, and only the most decidcated people, all virtous beyond reproach...
Just to make things clear, and setting aside the personal bias in your opinion, Trendy did not name-call anyone and only resorted to forceful action when things got out of hand, for which she is fully justified in both her action and her reaction. She does not always make a serious point, but I expect her and other staff to do what they need to whenever they need to. The fact that some users were out of line is conveniently ignored by those who want to feel justified in misbehaving, which makes what Trendy does a concern to all because she wouldn't have to be tough if provocateurs weren't nasty first. The world being the way it is, don't expect any different.
Anyways, figured it be only a matter of time before the ill-behaviored derailed this thread as they did other supportive threads. At least I had the foresight to make an independent thread and trap their posts so now they can't edit them and they couldn't accuse me of hijacking another's thread, rather had to do it themselves by making the thread about me. It wasn't and neither is this post.
Trendy is a player and deals with troublemakers as well, but she is also a CM empowered by support and powers. That's why though I support her, I don't consider her one of the 'crowd'. Down here is the way things really are, where the malicious prey on the decent because they weasel through the rules. The odds are rigged in favor of bad guys because the current system does not adequately address issues between players themselves. That's what in-game moderators would be good for, a system currently almost non-existant ( - regardless what trolls will say, I don't mention mods for want to be one. I don't want to be a mod here, never have. When I help players or share ideas I expect neither reward nor malice in return and I'd rather prefer nothing than the usual vitriol.) Any improvements limiting potential for in-game abuses is welcome. I know stuff can be done, someone in charge just needs to take interest.
Succinct and comprehensive, with a touch of humor. I like.
first off, dont arrogantly presume i was biased, on the contrary, trendy has to maintain her image of professionalism, this is after all her job. she can not act like the rest of the playerbase who have an opinion. anything she says good, bad or indifferent reflects on PWE as well. she is the public face of PWE and because of that as i stated, she has to maintain a professional image. there is no bias in any of that, its simply a fact of life that you want your job, you have to do well at it to keep it and that means following the rules that exist. this includes dealing with threats.
she could of just as easily not posted anything and reported it along and appropriate action would of been dealt with backstage. the difference being that she chose to fairly warn those around her as to the consequences, thats apart of her position and job.
my point in all that is that she should not pander to the threatmakers by acting like them to a point. would you pander to bullies by bullying others in return to try make yourself feel better? of course you would not. you are better than that and so trendy has to be. thats my opinion on the subject
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
You want to know what is an arrogant presumption? That we (notice I do not mention any personal denominators) as mere users should say how a CM supposed to behave according to how we suppose things are professional.
Thank you for the vote of confidence in the later part of your post, but neither me, you, nor any other users have the slightest control over how Trendy acts, talks, behaves, works, dresses, eats or anything else.
I get what you're trying to say that she should behave with professionalism befitting the company, which I agree with and believe she does in her way; but saying that she should behave in any particular manner when at times the ones she has to deal with feel bound by no such restrictions is like laying conditions and expecting failure. Those are the conditions we are tied with and you've seen how poorly that turns out sometimes.
The player base is a community in flux, always needing relevant approaches to different issues. I'd rather leave what Trendy does to Trendy to do as circumstances require. And in reality, both Trendy and our fellow players are to a limited degree our concern, because we are part of the same community and if we are true, we'll only want the best for it; because in turn it brings the best for us.