Is rrtw working correctly with DHC's?

kelshando

I have tried reroute reserves to weapons with both DBB and DHC's. It seems that with DBB's it works or at least it gives the perception it works.

With DHC's I can not see a real difference. Now I can't tell if its server lag or if the ability is not working correctly but there seems to be at times a longer gap between firing cycles when using the skill with DHC's. With DBB's your beams never seem to stop firing its a constant stream of fire. This effect is not showing with rrtw with DHC's

Again I can not tell if its a sever lag related or the skill not working right. Has anyone parsed the skill between DBB's and DHC's to see if the skill is working correctly of even giving a dps boost.

This is with using rrtw 3.

Also has anyone parsed rrtw3 vs cannon rapid fire to see which is parsing higher?

rmy1081

By visual inspection, when I run 4DHCs and 1 DBB, it seems to work. When I run 5 DHCs, it looks like it doesn't work. I agree it could be lag. I haven't tested it. There could also be some firing cycle issue.

pwstolemyname

I also found that RRtW faild to have a decernable effect on My DHCs.

kelshando

Ok good its not just me noticing it...

Have any of you run a parse to compare?

blessedladyboy

I'm also having trouble fathoming this ability, I have no idea if its doing anything, visually I can't tell and it doesn't appear to be better than crf with dhc.

zernin

Totally replied to the wrong thread, but see here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=23913481&postcount=5

Is it working? I think so. Is it worth it for DHCs? Probably not...

kelshando

zernin wrote: »

Totally replied to the wrong thread, but see here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=23913481&postcount=5

Is it working? I think so. Is it worth it for DHCs? Probably not...

Ya well if what you wrote is true its pretty much worthless for DHC's.. even for beams it seems much less effective then lets say surgical strikes but at least for beams the skill works.

For a ship that's built for cannons its makes pilot skills for dps pretty much worthless.. the only pilot skills worth anything are support ones.

I really hope they go back and look at that skill and its senergy with DHCs

baelogventure

Wait, you're surprised something new and shiny works with beams and not cannons?

How long have you been playing this game, now?

rmy1081

baelogventure wrote: »

Wait, you're surprised something new and shiny works with beams and not cannons?

How long have you been playing this game, now?

I've been playing long enough to know that once DHCs were king.

zernin wrote: »

I'm no STO theroycrafter, but from what I have read recently DHCs have a 1 second "fire" time and a 2 second "reload" time. There are a couple problems I can see with this ability for cannons in general, and one for DHCs in particular.

RRtW increases "cycle haste" by x%. Is "cycle haste" the cooldown time, fire time, or both? Our equation is:

Total Fire Cycle = (1 - Fire Mod) * Fire Time + (1 - Cooldown Mod) * Cooldown Time

Modless DHCs, we have:

3 = (1 - 0) * 1 + (1 - 0) * 2

If "cycle haste" only applies to the actual fire time, then RRtW3 would take the total time for DHCs down only slightly:

2.4 = (1 - .6) * 1 + (1 - 0) * 2

2.4 is only a 20% reduction from 3, far from the 60% we are hoping for. This might explain why we aren't noticing an improvement if it is really that small at the max rank.

This also means that that ability may be better suited towards DCs instead of DHCs:

1.8 = (1 -.6) * 2 + (1 - 0) * 1

1.8 is a 40% reduction. That's a little closer to what we are hoping for. That extra cooldown time is really painful to the DHCs if it is not affected by the ability.

Finding cycle times for DBBs is much harder than it should be, I can't tell by looking if they are 4 or 5 second cycles, but I think they are 5 cycle with 1 cooldown and google is failing me.

3 = (1 -.6) * 5 + (1 - 0) * 1

Yowza! That's much better. 3 seconds from 6. 50% reduction in overall time and very noticeable! What we essentially seem to have here is a single target DPS ability for Beam Arrays, almost a CRF for beams. That's very unfortunate considering it just arrived at the same time as ships that have a cannon based set bonus from the console 3 set in a meta that was already beam heavy. Too bad, I really liked the energy effect with my cannons.

The other thing that makes this unfortunate for cannons is I believe there is one other piece that I've left out of that equation: activation time. This isn't so much a written mechanic as it is a truth of the game engine, but our weapon cycles are always a bit slower than the listed fire and cooldown times thanks to slight delays in what the game engine will actually do. It's not as bad as it once was, but it is more painful to weapons with faster times and more total activation per minute. Another blow to the cannons.

That just confirms my suspicions. DHCs just have a weird firing cycle.

If we had the old DHCs with the crazy strong drain where EPS consoles were needed, RRW would be freaking awesome with DHCs. (not that I want that back)

The only way I see this ever getting fixed is a total rebalance of beams and cannons but I don't see that ever happening.

Thanks for the info!

hojain2020

This is the one power holding me back from a pilot ship all out build. How come these new and central abilities to pilot ships are not thought through enough? Sometime to be honest it seems like cryptics wants to just put ships out get the money and then... If enough peeps buy the pilot ship ... Fund the number crunchers to sort out the core skills. .... I could be wrong but well that's the impression I'm getting sigh.

lianthelia

Has there been much testing with DC's? Maybe a skill that can make them somewhat useful once again?

jarvisandalfred

lianthelia wrote: »

Has there been much testing with DC's? Maybe a skill that can make them somewhat useful once again?

10% severity (the main advantage of DHC's) is going to be less than 2%, probably 1%, of an edge. When you factor in better overcapping, proc'ing twice as much of anything that's a per-shot proc (cough embassy consoles), reduced power drain... it's possible they outshine DHC's already.

lianthelia

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

10% severity (the main advantage of DHC's) is going to be less than 2%, probably 1%, of an edge. When you factor in better overcapping, proc'ing twice as much of anything that's a per-shot proc (cough embassy consoles), reduced power drain... it's possible they outshine DHC's already.

Except there are things you need to keep in mind... DHC's have been modified so they have the same proc chance as DC's (This one makes no sense at all to me and I don't know why they did that) and DHC's just have a higher burst factor...

DC's don't drain much less damage so it's not like it's a huge drain...and almost all high DPS builds revolve around crit...so that 10% CrtD comes in handy.

jarvisandalfred

lianthelia wrote: »

Except there are things you need to keep in mind... DHC's have been modified so they have the same proc chance as DC's (This one makes no sense at all to me and I don't know why they did that) and DHC's just have a higher burst factor...

DC's don't drain much less damage so it's not like it's a huge drain...and almost all high DPS builds revolve around crit...so that 10% CrtD comes in handy.

See, mathmatically, that 10% crtd is nice, but less than a 2% difference.

And while I have no doubt that DHC's proc per-cycle things as much as DC's, per-shot things I'd be suprised on. And the weapons power thing is 2-fold, and wouldn't suprise me if it's a 1% buff or more.

lianthelia

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

See, mathmatically, that 10% crtd is nice, but less than a 2% difference.

And while I have no doubt that DHC's proc per-cycle things as much as DC's, per-shot things I'd be suprised on. And the weapons power thing is 2-fold, and wouldn't suprise me if it's a 1% buff or more.

It may not mean much...but still...in this game 1% damage means a lot to people. I just use DHC's on cannon ships because frankly...I don't see a reason not to...

Does the plasma explosion proc and other non weapon based procs proc more with DC's? Has it been proven?

rmy1081

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

See, mathmatically, that 10% crtd is nice, but less than a 2% difference.

And while I have no doubt that DHC's proc per-cycle things as much as DC's, per-shot things I'd be suprised on. And the weapons power thing is 2-fold, and wouldn't suprise me if it's a 1% buff or more.

There's also the firing cycle. DHCs use a lot less power than DCs. Then there's how cannons have a traveling time. If moving towards the target, one can build up a "pressure wave" of cannon shots to hit the target all at once giving DHCs an edge over DCs (single target). In PvP I try to combine that with a BO + THY (emphasis on try).

All in all, I think someone should test DHCs vs DCs since there's been a lot more per-shot additions to weapons in the last 6 months and the last time I've seen someone test DHCs vs DCs was a few years ago.

As for DCs with RRW. I (sort of) tested it today and didn't see that much of a boost to DCs while RRW was active. Beams win out greatly vs cannons using RRW because of beams long firing cycle. It's actually nice using DBBs up front and omni-beams in the back with RRW because, for single targets only. I don't have to worry about overcapping at all, which lets me adjust my power to other systems. (I really wish we could move to a single target meta for newer fleet actions)

jarvisandalfred

lianthelia wrote: »

It may not mean much...but still...in this game 1% damage means a lot to people. I just use DHC's on cannon ships because frankly...I don't see a reason not to...

Does the plasma explosion proc and other non weapon based procs proc more with DC's? Has it been proven?

That 1% does, sure. I'm saying I think the weapon power advantages (2x the overcap, 2 less drain) make up for it.

And I'll give it a test one of these days.

lianthelia

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

That 1% does, sure. I'm saying I think the weapon power advantages (2x the overcap, 2 less drain) make up for it.

And I'll give it a test one of these days.

I don't care about the power much...I'm more curious if using DC's would be more beneficial for non-weapon based procs.

jarvisandalfred

lianthelia wrote: »

I don't care about the power much...I'm more curious if using DC's would be more beneficial for non-weapon based procs.

You should, weapons power drives your dps.

blessedladyboy

I doubt DC will make a difference but maybe singles cannons? Not that you need single cannons with the current pilot ship line.

lianthelia

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

You should, weapons power drives your dps.

Well didn't you just say it isn't much different? :P

Just if the procs happened more DC's would be more beneficial to the build I want for my Pilot ship :P

thissler

jarvisandalfred wrote: »

See, mathmatically, that 10% crtd is nice, but less than a 2% difference.

And while I have no doubt that DHC's proc per-cycle things as much as DC's, per-shot things I'd be suprised on. And the weapons power thing is 2-fold, and wouldn't suprise me if it's a 1% buff or more.

10% Crit D is nice, but impossible to say what it actually amounts to without knowing how often it's going to happen. On my 30% chance Romulan Tac it certainly is more valuable than on my 9% Federation Engineer at least in absolute value compared to each other. But at least at that point I know how to value it within each build, it's dependent on chance.

The proc rate of dual cannons vs dual heavies was normalized to be per cycle ages ago, in regards to the old standby 2.5% proc. No one ever mentioned cannons at the time, likely because no one ever seriously tried to use them.

I did.

Anyway, per shot is still per shot. So each time you land a hit you get things like DEM and Tet Glider.

Still part of the old legacy designs. Like damage mods are.

Peace.

EDIT: Always good to note, descriptions can be fubar, or bugged, or whatever so sure parsing always a good practice to see if things are behaving as they should.

blessedladyboy

Speaking of 'per shot' I know about tet glider and dem but is there anything else since?

Overwhelm emitters?
Radiant iconian tier 4 trait?
Embassy plasma explosion consoles?