Or better yet, replace it with a better damage mechanic.
More keen on this idea.
Brainstorming:
1.) Each of your power subsystems can have their maximum capacity reduced as a death penalty; each one causing a 10 power reduction - capping at 50? power level in each subsystem.
2.) Item durability. Deaths cause durability damage. +New EC sink. -More database TRIBBLE to keep track of.
3.) Break "hull" into subsystem components that can be individually damaged. You can get your Engines blown out if you take too much 'hull damage', for example. You become 'disabled'(think GW2's 'downed state') if your core takes too much abuse. You explode if ALL your subsystems are destroyed. Different armor plating can protect different subsystems more/less.
With a game like STO, only one life in elite mode=does not work in this game.
Well, my suggestion aims to make elite, you know, more elite. It might make healer builds a thing to bring, along with a dedicated tank. I like the idea of making a ship disabled until someone heals the player back to life, that could be a cool mechanic.
Anyway, the people that play and succeed on elite (space) missions are ones that wouldn't die at all in the first place. I generally don't play elite, except for BHE, since the rewards aren't worth the time or effort. I'd be in favor of mandatory training missions for the queues too.
To anyone who thinks injuries are meaningless and just another button click you are wrong, they also act as a debuff to either you're character on ground or ship in space.
Example , Weapon damage will lower weapon power. Damage to shield generators will effect shield resistance. Engine damage effects speed and turn rate.
Injuries are not just a button click they are a penalty to you and the more you have, the more crippling that penalty becomes.
I don't agree with removing them, i do agree as i've already said, that if you are injured during a mission the system should block you from entering a new mission until you heal those injuries sustained in the previous encounter.
As it is now, you get a random system damaged. That damage has some random effect on your performance. You end up with people coming into STF's with as others have said, many multiple injuries lined up for days.
Instead, change to a 20% system. Each injury declines a systems efficiency by 20%, Weapons/Shields/Engines/Aux. Once you stack 5 injuries in that system, it goes offline and no amount of science team or engineering team will bring it back. You MUST use the parts at a Starbase or DS9 to fix it.
Now you can call the injuries whatever you want, transporter systems, eps system, hull damage etc,.. but each injurie would count against one of your power systems.
I suspect people wouldn't com showing up as much if they only had whole sub systems offline.
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Considing most injuries are little more than minor annoyances and easlily fixed if you are at a social hub, I'd agree that something should be done with them.
Personally I can go either way, as the current system stands it could be completey removed and I wouldn't miss it.
Though, with the proper adjustments it could be a real incentive for players to not 'bite off more than they can chew'.
For instance if the "Projectile launcher malfunction" ship injury caused your projectiles to sometimes misfire and explode in the chamber damaging your ship, it would make sense to get it fixed ASAP, yes? :P
Simmilar effects could be applied to "energy weapon malfunction" to cause the weapon to overload damaging your ship, or just not fire.
Captain injuries should be more problematic for missions, "Head Trauma" should make your captain next to useless in a mission as you SHOULD be in sickbay, perhaps reducing damage resistance, weapon/power recharge times, and maybe even making the player fall over occasionally. And "Internal Bleeding" should cause players to lose health over time until they are either healed or die, seriously internal bleeding is a serious problem GET IT FIXED!!
So many times I see people running around with life-threatening injuries I just have to laugh at how silly the injury system is in STO.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
You guys are all forgetting that Injuries were implemented as a feature requested by the players, as a means of having a death penalty.
Before, people would just die and respawn because there was no consequence (other than having to run back, but that's whatever). The injuries were designed as a means to provide an incentive to pop your heals, break off, search for cover, etc to prevent yourself from dying in the first place and to provide an added difficulty layer for Advanced/Elite queues.
Were the implemented well? That's up to you to decide - but it was the players that asked for it and brought it about in the first place.
Well it doesn't really serve this purpose, i'm level 60 and i live in ESD, no matter the sustained injuries they cost me nothing to fix at the end of the match and i dont tend to find that a single matches worth of injuries really does much, especially not when i get things like a projectile weapons injury when i have 8 beams slotted :P
2.) Item durability. Deaths cause durability damage. +New EC sink. -More database TRIBBLE to keep track of.
No no oh dear (nondenominational) god no.
There's plenty of EC sinks already (HELLO UPGRADE SYSTEM) and part of what I love about sto is that it doesn't make you run to an npc periodically to click a "repair all" button before you can go back to doing what you actually care about.
To anyone who thinks injuries are meaningless and just another button click you are wrong, they also act as a debuff to either you're character on ground or ship in space.
That aspect of it is fine--deterring people from just zergfesting their way through the harder content. But after the STF in question is over, what reason is there to keep the debuffs active? It doesn't add anything meaningful to gameplay.
I always preferred the crew mechanic to be used as the death penalty in the game (at least for space). Obviously, it'd need to be retooled so sneezing on your ship the wrong way wouldn't result in 40% of your crewmen getting too injured to work.
If you get blown up, you lose a portion of your crew for good. They don't come back as zombies. Your disabled crew (the ones in orange) gradually get replaced by holograms, or are healed (difficult to tell the difference, which is the point). If you get blown up with more crewmembers in the orange, the greater your permanent crew loss.
If you want new crew, you can visit a starbase and get crew replenished for free.
Or you can pay energy credits and have a shuttle (or convoy of shuttles) show up in space that replenishes your permanently dead crew. This has the same mechanics of getting healed at a starbase or using components.
The crew mechanic passive/active ship repair math would also need to be retooled, obviously.
If you have 0 alive crew, your ship simply does not get repaired unless you're using regeneration traits, equipment, or set bonuses. Engineering Team, Tac Team, Science Team, Intel team, Boarding Party, etc. simply becomes grayed out on your boffs/power tray. Hangars are grayed out. Anything tied to the crew mechanic simply does not work unless you replenish your dead crew.
The ground injury death penalty is just fine, imo. But yes, the queue should decline your request to enter a ground PvE match if you have a certain amount of injuries.
The injury/repair construct doesn't make any sense in this game. It feels like a placeholder mechanic for a risk/reward model that was forgotten and never revisited.
Having said that, anytime Cryptic revisits anything it becomes a dil sink, so I rather they just keep ignoring it.
This.
It's completely pointless, like the crew mechanic. But it's better than being turned into another dil/EC sink.
But that argument would invalidate every single thought you could possibly voice over the game.
New playable species/ship/faction? Nah, bigger issues.
Fresh content? Nah, bigger issues.
Fix that obnoxious costume error? Nah bigger issues...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But that argument would invalidate every single thought you could possibly voice over the game.
New playable species/ship/faction? Nah, bigger issues.
Fresh content? Nah, bigger issues.
Fix that obnoxious costume error? Nah bigger issues...
True, but the injury system was introduced because people wanted a death penalty implemented.
It works, so why change it in the first place?
If some people don't go to the doctor, and run around having some serve wounds, it's their problem tbh. Sure the penalties could be harder no doubt about that, but to roll up the whole system seems a bit too much imo.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
True, but the injury system was introduced because people wanted a death penalty implemented.
It works, so why change it in the first place?
If some people don't go to the doctor, and run around having some serve wounds, it's their problem tbh. Sure the penalties could be harder no doubt about that, but to roll up the whole system seems a bit too much imo.
I do think it could be done so much better as right now it is just an obnoxious click after respawn mechanic. You just have to put a stack of 100 healing items at your bank and the "penalty" is non existant, as dying can often not be avoided anyway. You either have so much healing powers to stay afloat or you die since you cannot actually outrun enemies. Because if you manage to get away from mobs they will regenerate before you have healed yourself.
Anyway you are right of course that the system isn't horribly broken, it's just pointless like the crew mechanics. But if people have some good ideas, why not talk about it
In general it is mildly annoying that Cryptic is so reluctant to fix/rework old mechanics and content and just introduce more and more half-baked systems that pile up all the time. If there is at some point something like a "Homeworlds" expansion as I suggested I hope this also includes old mechanics that did never really work
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The idea of perma-death isn't a good one. Think about fighting the Undine for a second. They shunt and push you around with their beams which freezes your BOFF powers, keep you held in anomalies and fire HY torps that debuff your movement and do crazy high damage. Anyone can die from that and it wouldn't be their fault. Punishing someone for being killed while their trays are locked out sounds rather cruel.
Instead, how about this:
Adopt the damage system from SFC. If your shields go down, you take hull damage right? Well, in addition, make it so that weapons and subsystems get damaged (they can't be used while being hit). If they take too much of a direct hit (think Quantum torp high yield or similar) or too much damage, they get destroyed. THEN you use components to repair them, which takes some time. To simplify it, make it so that there is only 1 component type to keep it simple. You could also make it so that it repairs itself based on crew strength (but slower) to keep people from having like 10+ injuries in STFs.
This would increase the value of the somewhat weak transphasic torpedo and other shield penetrating attacks, because now they actually contribute something to the fight other than lackluster damage. Not to mention, it would give torpedoes in general a reason to be used by giving kinetic damage higher chances to damage subsystems and weapons.
the worst part is they likely have the ability to heal themselves with Components and Regenerators they have in the bank but haven't worked out how to use them.
perhaps it would be more simple to just make these repairs or heals automatic if the player has the correct Components or Regenerators otherwise then exclude players from entering a group mission until they have taken the steps by either of the available methods be it visiting the appropriate contacts in the major social hubs or obtaining the required Components or Regenerators.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
this is such a silly suggestion, it sounds like someone maybe got an unexpected injury and forgot to carry injury kits
there are so many other things that need work
this should be on the back burner, so far back you can't even see it
EDIT: too much snark in my reply, sorry. I do not think this is worth devtime atm, especially with the lag issues. The mechanic itself is ok/fine/goodEnough.
That wouldn't work at all and would kill the elite queues IMO. Might I remind you that one way Cryptic creates "challenge" is by the magical 1 shot?
Your idea is TRIBBLE an entire team because someone takes an unlucky hit.
As for the topic, the existing injury system isn't bad. The only change I would make is to make it that you cannot enter a publicly queued event if you have several injuries already. I totally agree with that idea.
But how many of us actually participate in elite queues? I think my suggestion further challenges "elite" players, makes healers a viable build, and the inclusion of a proper tank a must. If there's an actual threat of dying, then players will adapt for less DPS, more other stuff. Moreover, my suggested change only effects elite, while advanced and normal keep you in the game.
The way I see it, normal queues should be playable by anyone in any build (80% minimum PUG success rate). Advanced should require at least 10k DPS per ship and some CC, as well as completion of a tutorial mission (50% minimum PUG success rate). Elite should require a minimum of 30k DPS per player, in addition to a dedicated tank and healer (10% or less PUG success rate).
I think as difficulty goes up, one should be pushed toward running premade groups. I know that won't play well among lone wolfs or casuals, but it's a fair way to go. I think normal should reward a purple R&D mat and an elite mark, advanced 3 and 3, elite 5 and 5 with a bonus package of some sort.
Yes, the one shot kill is a thing, but if you have a proper tank dedicated to threat control, you don't have to worry about that, now do you?
Comments
More keen on this idea.
Brainstorming:
1.) Each of your power subsystems can have their maximum capacity reduced as a death penalty; each one causing a 10 power reduction - capping at 50? power level in each subsystem.
2.) Item durability. Deaths cause durability damage. +New EC sink. -More database TRIBBLE to keep track of.
3.) Break "hull" into subsystem components that can be individually damaged. You can get your Engines blown out if you take too much 'hull damage', for example. You become 'disabled'(think GW2's 'downed state') if your core takes too much abuse. You explode if ALL your subsystems are destroyed. Different armor plating can protect different subsystems more/less.
Well, my suggestion aims to make elite, you know, more elite. It might make healer builds a thing to bring, along with a dedicated tank. I like the idea of making a ship disabled until someone heals the player back to life, that could be a cool mechanic.
Anyway, the people that play and succeed on elite (space) missions are ones that wouldn't die at all in the first place. I generally don't play elite, except for BHE, since the rewards aren't worth the time or effort. I'd be in favor of mandatory training missions for the queues too.
Example , Weapon damage will lower weapon power. Damage to shield generators will effect shield resistance. Engine damage effects speed and turn rate.
Injuries are not just a button click they are a penalty to you and the more you have, the more crippling that penalty becomes.
I don't agree with removing them, i do agree as i've already said, that if you are injured during a mission the system should block you from entering a new mission until you heal those injuries sustained in the previous encounter.
As it is now, you get a random system damaged. That damage has some random effect on your performance. You end up with people coming into STF's with as others have said, many multiple injuries lined up for days.
Instead, change to a 20% system. Each injury declines a systems efficiency by 20%, Weapons/Shields/Engines/Aux. Once you stack 5 injuries in that system, it goes offline and no amount of science team or engineering team will bring it back. You MUST use the parts at a Starbase or DS9 to fix it.
Now you can call the injuries whatever you want, transporter systems, eps system, hull damage etc,.. but each injurie would count against one of your power systems.
I suspect people wouldn't com showing up as much if they only had whole sub systems offline.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Personally I can go either way, as the current system stands it could be completey removed and I wouldn't miss it.
Though, with the proper adjustments it could be a real incentive for players to not 'bite off more than they can chew'.
For instance if the "Projectile launcher malfunction" ship injury caused your projectiles to sometimes misfire and explode in the chamber damaging your ship, it would make sense to get it fixed ASAP, yes? :P
Simmilar effects could be applied to "energy weapon malfunction" to cause the weapon to overload damaging your ship, or just not fire.
Captain injuries should be more problematic for missions, "Head Trauma" should make your captain next to useless in a mission as you SHOULD be in sickbay, perhaps reducing damage resistance, weapon/power recharge times, and maybe even making the player fall over occasionally. And "Internal Bleeding" should cause players to lose health over time until they are either healed or die, seriously internal bleeding is a serious problem GET IT FIXED!!
So many times I see people running around with life-threatening injuries I just have to laugh at how silly the injury system is in STO.
Well it doesn't really serve this purpose, i'm level 60 and i live in ESD, no matter the sustained injuries they cost me nothing to fix at the end of the match and i dont tend to find that a single matches worth of injuries really does much, especially not when i get things like a projectile weapons injury when i have 8 beams slotted :P
There's plenty of EC sinks already (HELLO UPGRADE SYSTEM) and part of what I love about sto is that it doesn't make you run to an npc periodically to click a "repair all" button before you can go back to doing what you actually care about.
That aspect of it is fine--deterring people from just zergfesting their way through the harder content. But after the STF in question is over, what reason is there to keep the debuffs active? It doesn't add anything meaningful to gameplay.
So much this.
This.
It's completely pointless, like the crew mechanic. But it's better than being turned into another dil/EC sink.
EDIT:
But that argument would invalidate every single thought you could possibly voice over the game.
New playable species/ship/faction? Nah, bigger issues.
Fresh content? Nah, bigger issues.
Fix that obnoxious costume error? Nah bigger issues...
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It works, so why change it in the first place?
If some people don't go to the doctor, and run around having some serve wounds, it's their problem tbh. Sure the penalties could be harder no doubt about that, but to roll up the whole system seems a bit too much imo.
I do think it could be done so much better as right now it is just an obnoxious click after respawn mechanic. You just have to put a stack of 100 healing items at your bank and the "penalty" is non existant, as dying can often not be avoided anyway. You either have so much healing powers to stay afloat or you die since you cannot actually outrun enemies. Because if you manage to get away from mobs they will regenerate before you have healed yourself.
Anyway you are right of course that the system isn't horribly broken, it's just pointless like the crew mechanics. But if people have some good ideas, why not talk about it
In general it is mildly annoying that Cryptic is so reluctant to fix/rework old mechanics and content and just introduce more and more half-baked systems that pile up all the time. If there is at some point something like a "Homeworlds" expansion as I suggested I hope this also includes old mechanics that did never really work
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Instead, how about this:
Adopt the damage system from SFC. If your shields go down, you take hull damage right? Well, in addition, make it so that weapons and subsystems get damaged (they can't be used while being hit). If they take too much of a direct hit (think Quantum torp high yield or similar) or too much damage, they get destroyed. THEN you use components to repair them, which takes some time. To simplify it, make it so that there is only 1 component type to keep it simple. You could also make it so that it repairs itself based on crew strength (but slower) to keep people from having like 10+ injuries in STFs.
This would increase the value of the somewhat weak transphasic torpedo and other shield penetrating attacks, because now they actually contribute something to the fight other than lackluster damage. Not to mention, it would give torpedoes in general a reason to be used by giving kinetic damage higher chances to damage subsystems and weapons.
It worked for SFC, so why not?
"Let them eat static!"
perhaps it would be more simple to just make these repairs or heals automatic if the player has the correct Components or Regenerators otherwise then exclude players from entering a group mission until they have taken the steps by either of the available methods be it visiting the appropriate contacts in the major social hubs or obtaining the required Components or Regenerators.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
there are so many other things that need work
this should be on the back burner, so far back you can't even see it
EDIT: too much snark in my reply, sorry. I do not think this is worth devtime atm, especially with the lag issues. The mechanic itself is ok/fine/goodEnough.
But how many of us actually participate in elite queues? I think my suggestion further challenges "elite" players, makes healers a viable build, and the inclusion of a proper tank a must. If there's an actual threat of dying, then players will adapt for less DPS, more other stuff. Moreover, my suggested change only effects elite, while advanced and normal keep you in the game.
The way I see it, normal queues should be playable by anyone in any build (80% minimum PUG success rate). Advanced should require at least 10k DPS per ship and some CC, as well as completion of a tutorial mission (50% minimum PUG success rate). Elite should require a minimum of 30k DPS per player, in addition to a dedicated tank and healer (10% or less PUG success rate).
I think as difficulty goes up, one should be pushed toward running premade groups. I know that won't play well among lone wolfs or casuals, but it's a fair way to go. I think normal should reward a purple R&D mat and an elite mark, advanced 3 and 3, elite 5 and 5 with a bonus package of some sort.
Yes, the one shot kill is a thing, but if you have a proper tank dedicated to threat control, you don't have to worry about that, now do you?