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What would you do to fix the inflated NPC HP situation?
praxi5
Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
Open ended question here.
Not "Why was HP increased" or "Let's re-balance these abilities for this reason."
Simply, how would you address the buckets of HP that were slapped onto NPCs with DR?
My suggestion: Reduce their HP significantly but give them an equivalent (or perhaps increased?) "effective HP" via Damage Resistance (Armor/Aux to SIF/Aux to ID), Shield Damage Resistance (EPtS, TSS), or even Damage Reduction abilities that they can hit players with.
These buffs could then be overcome by player use of things -DmgRes, Shield/Power Drain, or cleanse abilities.
Why? So it engages players more, encouraging usage of various underused abilities.
Ideally, what I would like to see is maybe a swap from massive hull HP to a mix of hull and shield resistances; shields wouldn't just melt away in 2 seconds, leaving you to hammer away at bare hulls. High shield res (but not HP) could give Tetryon weapons and Shield/Power Draining new life.
Not "Why was HP increased" or "Let's re-balance these abilities for this reason."
Simply, how would you address the buckets of HP that were slapped onto NPCs with DR?
My suggestion: Reduce their HP significantly but give them an equivalent (or perhaps increased?) "effective HP" via Damage Resistance (Armor/Aux to SIF/Aux to ID), Shield Damage Resistance (EPtS, TSS), or even Damage Reduction abilities that they can hit players with.
These buffs could then be overcome by player use of things -DmgRes, Shield/Power Drain, or cleanse abilities.
Why? So it engages players more, encouraging usage of various underused abilities.
Ideally, what I would like to see is maybe a swap from massive hull HP to a mix of hull and shield resistances; shields wouldn't just melt away in 2 seconds, leaving you to hammer away at bare hulls. High shield res (but not HP) could give Tetryon weapons and Shield/Power Draining new life.
Post edited by praxi5 on
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Others, yes, they are weak in the shields. I think most people would like to see enemies be smarter rather than hullbags. They have accomplished this to an extent with Vaardwar and Voth. The Heralds also - but more with their solar gates and probes and shockwave thing also the suicide rammers. The ships themselves seem pretty standard fare to me.
Right now the vaardwar may be the most interesting enemy because they move around a bit along with the Heralds for their special attacks. But for me the borg are now the strongest with their shield drain. Even with 3 piece assimilated set I must be careful not to be surrounded by a swarm of spheres. Before the recent changes I could ignore all enemies with my incredible shield regen build. Now they can overwhelm it.
I know we are meant to respect the Heralds and Iconians most but for me the borg should be the toughest. They adapt quickly.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I know that's exactly what the OP was trying to avoid, but while high DPS exists all other skills will be largely irrelevant.
Maybe just instead of huge number spikes as you go to advanced and elite they get access to more abilities?
Give them abilities and pre-DR-HP and they would be wiped before activating (basically pve-vaped). Give them inherent resistencies and you get screams from the scrubs because its so unfair and you need so much debuff and especially dps that the mission are doomed to fail. Pretty much the same garbage you had to read after DR hit.
The difference (and intention) here is to make it more accessible; in order to combat the high HP, upgrading your gear is the way to go.
With resistances, you can use "free" things like BOff abilities.
Your idea is quite good. NPCs using more abilities to counter what we're throwing at them would be a nice challenge for Advanced and Elite.
Any change that targets the very small group of DPS players will impact the rest of the playerbase much more. This has happened recently with Hangar Pets and Plasma Doping. Both gave many players a chance to do some of the harder queues. At the high end the changes didn't really hurt us, but for everyone else, it was a significant set back to what they could do.
And also, BFAW is not the only thing that can hit high numbers. DHC with CSV can hit >100k with a good pilot and a good run. Even Torp boats can hit high numbers, as @Odenknight has proven hitting nearly 75k with a Torp Boat Defiant.
I've got nothing wrong with good pilots hitting high DPS. I have a problem with Scimitars sitting at 8km spamming FAW with 5 SROs and 5 tac consoles and Elite Drones and the entire game being balanced around that.
I think that NPC HP should be increased... Here is my logic
When Delta Rising went live it was supposed to introduce a new level of difficulty... However, when that happened... I was running a decent build, fleet phasers... Before DR NPC ships were not a problem to take down... After DR NPC ships were still not a problem to takedown even after the insane HP buff...
Now after S10 im running a pure DPS build (true glass cannon Voth AP CrtDx3 - 4 ROM Tacs) this allows me basacly at the best case... One shot enemey NPC.... Not always some times it takes more but it is much easier.... Again this is my thought and the logic one where it comes from...
HP should buffed for level 60 NPCs to provide more of a better challenge... But then again I'm a level 60 with maxed out everything... And a F2P since "see date below" and not spent a dime in STO.
Just my thoughts.
This will lean the mobs to more expert teams. Only groups who spam APB and/or recluse nannies will benefit more from this.
OMG praxi. you are in the DPS channel and you keep spewing nonsense that gear is the way to go as if you dont belong in the DPS channel and belong to the noob folks.
Polished piloting is the way to go. Everything comes with piloting including surviving, DPS, healing, etc.
The problem of that scenario:
Just because you have a scimitar, fawing, 5sro, 5 tac consoles with elite drones doesnt mean it is going to be effective. 8 kms is a bad way to optimize and kill stuff.
Like I said above to praxi, Piloting matters more. The only time these stuff you say matters is when you are competing for ToP DPS PvE which apparently you or that player is using the scimitar isnt competing for.
One thing that still bugs me are how absurdly sturdy Tholian Recluse carriers are. You can dump a boatload of high DPS on them and they won't flinch. A concentrated barrage of cannon fire (that would usually destroy pretty much any other similar type of ship in a single volley) will hardly dent a shield facing on the Recluse.
For me it's only the Recluse. I don't experience this with any other Rank 3 NPC ships.
If the game were balanced around DPS BFAW Scims, then I imagine most of the PvE content would be significantly more challenging for most. We wouldn't have such varying DPS requirements for Elite queues if it were so, instead we have some Elites requiring 15k DPS and some requiring 50-75k. We even have Hive Space Elite in which Agro tanks and Healers can be quite handy on the team.
Also, something that must always be mentioned when talking about the Scimitar. The Scimitar is so OP that it currently does not hold the DPS record. Current DPS record is held by RyanSTO with a Fed Tac Fleet Patrol Escort using Phaser Dual Beam Banks.
The problem with effective HP, though, is that it makes things like shield regeneration and healing far, far more powerful. Shields also don't have much that can actually counter any innate resistances. You're basically screwed with very toughly shielded enemies, even science abilities won't be very useful because NPC shields are still going to be very overinflated in terms of their HP value. I definitely see this issue with the Heralds. I'm blowing up fully shielded cruisers regularly, though part of that is their energy portals that give them lots of shield regen.
Hull is a bit different since most NPCs don't have much hull regen, although some have very significant hull regen. However if I'm remembering things right, as a player and, assuming you are debuffing them with something like APB or sensor scan, you actually want them to have more HP and less resistances because if you reduce their resistances below zero, the scaling for the extra damage you do is much more favorable the more negative their armor debuff.
The problem with this is still the fundamental issue that we are expected to go through the very tedious and extremely expensive upgrade system to counter it ourselves. It is nice that they are offering a handful of free upgrades, but it is a token amount compared to what is actually required.
wrong. making smarter enemies would make it so that everyone has a role again, not just dps kings. currently its mostly all about damage, nothing else with ONE exception to the rule ive seen: grethor. you have to strategize there and damage isn't king when u have to close a rad gate.
It isn't really good for an MMO to form it's general balance around the "best case"/top 1% players. That just pushes the average players out of the game. It's bad business.
(Now, perhaps they could increase what changing the difficulty to "elite" does, so that the top players can get more challenge. But Normal diff should not be balanced around uber-build DPS.)
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Personally, I don't think I've ever "one shot" an NPC enemy, on any of my characters. Closest I've come, likely, would be against those three-groups of frigate enemies, at lower levels. And yes, I've got matching guns, full sets of correct-type tac consoles, and have adjusted my energy levels. Against lv60 Delta enemies? Fighting the heavier ships is a decently long slog. Against the Iconian ships in Blood Of The Ancients? I was still working my way through one of the supporting heavies when the NPC ships managed to get through the "fight off the Herald" stages of the battle. Yeah, I suck. Ah, well. :P
(That was on my lv60/12-15+ spec point, tac captain, no fleet gear, Kobali Cruiser w/AP beams/AP omni/ancient omni/KCB. No, they're not CrtDx3, not remotely. Nor all Mk14/gold)
...and no, I don't PUG STF's. I wouldn't want to inflict my bad DPS on you all. :P
No one's saying that piloting isn't important - Piloting is what takes a 50k build that someone copy pasta'd and only gets 10k out of it, or knowing when to eat a torp at bare hull vs saving your heals for when you really need it, or even knowing when to pop APA/GDF.
Piloting is arguably the most important aspect, but let's not understate how much of advantage having the right gear/skills/traits gets you; the DPS increase from Mk XII to Mk XIV scales exponentially (I'm sure someone has that chart handy).
Gear alone isn't going to get you anywhere near the top, but for the "average" player, it's going to help a lot more and be far easier to accomplish than learning how to position yourself perfectly each time.
When I make these posts, I don't make them from the viewpoint of seasoned veterans - we know what we're doing. Instead, I pick the viewpoint of the average player, since they represent the majority of STO.
Even now, does a standard 10K team (the "low end" of DPS) have any trouble accomplishing everything that's not GtGE? No, it's a breeze. But the average player (read: pugs) are facing massive challenges.
Crystalline Entity is supposed to be like that, how does that usually go?
This way, you're actually accomplishing the following goals:
1. Teaching players to PvP. 75% of the knowledge will come from applying the appropriate counters to the appropriate NPCs. The other 25% comes from practicing the art of PvP...
2. Get a better grasp of powers. That NPC with a player-grade tachyon beam being mowed down like hotcakes because it's power is a tickle? Apply buff. BFaWing cubes slapping APB everywhere wiping teams before they can touch the shields? Elite Tac Cubes running A2B are too tough? Etc. etc.
3. Encourage diverse loadouts, driving sales of the system and leading to a focus on the appropriate code.
4. Did I mention improved balance?
5. Maybe encourage a diversity of player teams - that tank might suddenly become semi-useful again to suck out a balanced tachyon beam...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
NPC's wouldn't need the HP increase as much, if they could defend themselves with all of the tactics and powers available to the player base.The devs could "copy" any of the higher end STO ship builds found on the internet, to apply and use in game on NPC ship builds. Imagine fighting a 50k dps Aux to Bat cruiser boss NPC?, trying to wrangle the double APO escort NPC?
The space/ground combat tactics would change as it could also help prepare PvEers for the tactics and Strategy used by the best PvPers in game, and it could help re-define the "trinity" of MMO's, leading to more diverse builds (wizards, mages, warlocks, paladins, monks, shadow priests, etc.) becoming popular over "more dps" (dps warriors and rogues).
I think it could help to create specific situational awareness and diversity that extends to every gameplay element, that is currently completed by simply adding more dps.
The problem for power creep on player ships? Add in an inherent weapon weakness/vulnerability in each player shield type, and each ship, so that specific combos that if not countered in the build through powers and Boffs, become extra debilitating against specific targets/attacks.
Bring back rock paper scissors!
Enemies in STO are more like SPAM, SPAM, SPAM than "there is a ship that we need to defeat"
imagine Star Trek Nemesis, Battle at Basin Rift, if it was closer to STO's battles it would have been 3 waves of scimitars and 10 mogai, against Picard, who would have "fire at will" the **** out of his ship...script would have read something like: "Fire at will...fire at will...fire at will...emergency power to shields...full torp spread...fire at will"
I think normal difficulty is fine. If you want higher difficulty set your difficulty to elite. And join only advanced and elite STFs.
Problem is solved. See you can solve your own problems.
I think the delta recruit thing, encouraging folks to complete every mission through the breen set, should be extended through the delta episodes. Also, a free ship at lvl 50 (some unloved T-5U or a general purpose T6 ship) since the top level has been moved up to 60, would also help folks too as they level up.
Why?
If PvP and PvE played "by the same rules" - more or less at least, it's real hard to teach an AI actual timing / recognition patterns to fully use powers etc. - then any and every development for the game would be balanced for both worlds and therefore not be any sort of an extra burden...
Unlike now where powers need to be balanced to work in the world of PvP but still be "useful enough" in PvE to warrant the switch (Buy)...
And I'm not about to finish throwing out the sliver of the remaining PvP playerbase just because...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Ignore him, he's a troll that blames everything on PvP. I wouldn't be surprised if he blamed the lighting in sector space on PvP.
One of us doesn't understand how resistances work, and I'm fairly sure it's not me.
Unless you're talking about buff-removal, applying a debuff to resistance is more effective when they have zero resistance.
You'd just be making it harder for the weak players who are having trouble to begin with. The stronger players who already have no trouble will have no problem adjusting.